Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, September 10 2003 Volume 02 :
Number 252
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:55:18 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Brakes
> Seems to
> me the theme has been if you got good, sticky tires,
and you know
> how to use the brake without abusing it, then stockers are
just
> as good as any "upgrade."
for an moderated to average application, yes.....right on brother
:)
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Oskar broke a Stillen.
I broke TWO PowerSlots.
Don't know about
Powerstops.
Use all that fancy crap on the street, not on the track.
Rich/shiftless old ricer>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:07:44 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: brakes
> Use all that fancy crap on the street, not on the track.
no "fancy crap" there mate (yo! you have a fecal fetish, fecal
freak?..."Old
Poop"...."Fancy Crap".....do we see a pattern? ;)
anyway...enough of the Do-Do Talk....i have found the "PowerStop/Slot to
be
good alternative oem rotor that have
been
augmented.....heh...."augmented"....heh.
personally i use un-augement, untouched, virgin OEM rotors on the track
as
they are consumable (and cheap) whilst being fairly "durable". ;)
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:45:21 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
brakes
You're starting to sound like Mohler --- comments but no information.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:47:15 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 92
SOHC ECU Help
Check the 3SI.org site --- they seem to float around there regularly.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:52:43 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Headlight Motor Cover
Does anyone have an "extra" little rubber/plastic cover that covers the
headlight motor on the 1st Gen Stealth? I lost mine and, of course, you
can't buy it without buying the whole motor. Thanks!
------------------------------
Thanks to those that responded, especially Jim and Terry. It seems this
subject once again has been flogged (an annual ritual?). :)
Ok. Here is a revised "list".
Assumptions:
1) The road surface is favorable for braking, meaning not
wet or oily or icy or covered with debris, sand, or gravel.
2) You have the
stickiest tires mounted appropriate to the intended use. As usual, life involves
compromises. Sometimes there are economic or race "rules" or strategy factors
that prevent us from using the stickiest tires. Sometimes we need a certain
flexibility or stiffness or longevity or water-handling ability that may
compromise the "stickiness" factor.
3) You are not engaging the ABS. Because
if you are then the braking system is adequate or you need even "stickier"
tires.
4) Excellent quality brake fluid is used.
5) The master cylinder
and brake booster are acceptable (are there upgrades?).
6) The rotor and
caliper are in good working condition.
7) Brake "feel" is a subject for
another thread.
Given the above assumptions, here is how the car can stop faster and
shorter *one* time.
1) Exert more force on the wheels/tires by:
- - better driver management
of the brake pedal.
- - use SS braid-protected brake lines (reduces pressure
losses or delays).
- - use a caliper with more total piston area (multiplies
fluid "force" to the pads).
- - using larger diameter rotors to increase the
torque applied by the caliper to the wheel.
- - using different pads (with
materials and a coefficient of friction optimal for the use of the pads).
- -
improve the front-rear braking distribution (could involve upgrading the rear
rotors and calipers, especially for 1991-1993 models)
Assumption number (3) deserves more attention. Not all uses of the brakes
require that braking be taken to the point of exceeding the available tire-road
friction force (that is locking the brakes or excessively sliding the tire).
These uses are encountered on the street (for example, extended downhill grades,
enthusiastic driving of the twisties, towing) and on the race track.
Given that we need to stop more than once and may be using the brakes in a
manner that does not come close to engaging the ABS, here is how we can improve
braking *availability* with extended use, not necessarily stopping faster or
shorter.
1) Improve heat management to maintain the optimal temperature at the
rotor-pad interface to maximize pad coefficient of friction.
- - air- or
water-cooling of the brake area (usually homemade options; are there commercial
kits available?).
- - using pads, calipers and/or rotors that dissipate heat
better.
- - (for those that have a spare $20,000 lying around) switching to
an entirely different rotor and pad setup, such as the carbon-ceramic brakes on
the new Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale and the Ferrari Enzo.
From the comments I have heard from those that use our cars on road
courses, the main advantage of the larger-rotor, different-caliper braking
systems (Brembo "F40" and "F50", Porsche 993 and 928, Alcon, AP Racing) is
improved heat management, that is, reduced or eliminated brake fade. It would be
interesting to see how much faster and shorter our cars stop with the big
brakes, but that does not seem to be the main reason for installing them.
OK. Do I need to add, remove or change something? Other comments?
[ Alex had no idea what such a simple question as "How are powerslot rotors
for normal street use?" might lead to. :) ]
Thanks.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:12:16 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Brakes
> Thanks to those that responded, especially Jim and Terry. It
>
seems this subject once again has been flogged (an annual ritual?). :)
personally I like to wait till a week or twos worth of flogging has been
had
then I give it the last few kicks in the stomach for fun, .EDU, last
hurrah
for the Annual Ritual (ok, the annual-quarterly ritual) as I belong to
many
list so this is a bit than an "annual" tradition here at the high
powered
offices of Grd4Spd Racing high atop the John Hancock Bldg in Bloody
Chicago,
USA....take as many makes and models cars there are and add a factor
of
"10"...no "11!!!" ;) and you will get a good idea of how many times
"Big
Brakes" are addressed on the net....and thats the stuff I
"listen"
to....crazy eh? yeah, gotta be.
> Ok. Here is a revised "list".
"Da List" looks pretty good :)
> OK. Do I need to add, remove or change something? Other
comments?
ack...ahem.....dont disgaurd the #1 issue to be addressed.....Driver
Ability
(or Inability) to operate the brake pedal.
Carry on!
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
My car has developed a weird idle problem over the past few weeks. The
idle
is inconsistent. Some times it idles perfect at 750rpms. Other times
it
will start at 1200rpms and slowly work it's way up to 2500 rpms over
a
period of a minute or so, or may work it's way down to 0 over a period
of
30 seconds or so and die . Sometimes at startup, it idles at 1200rpms
and
stays there. And then there are other times when after warmup, it
won't
idle at all, either by working it's way down to 0 or dyeing as soon as
the
throttle is released. Resetting the ECU solved the problem for a
couple
weeks, then a few days, and now has no effect at all. Two days ago
I
replaced 2 caps in the ECU that were leaking and that didn't seem to
affect
the idle at all. Also, turning on the AC cause a slight decrease in
idle
speed, not a slight increase as it normally used to do.
I've also tried adjusting the air bypass screw with varied results.
With
the engine idling at about 1500 rpms, I tightened the screw until it
was
snug, and the engine speed changed very little. I then disconnected
the
battery for a while, loosened the screw a few turns, and after idling for
a
while, the rpms would slowly drop until the engine died.
This is not the "hunting" problem that exhibits rapid changes in idle
over
a short period of time or upon deceleration. I cleaned the IAS motor
and
throttle body about 6 months ago. According to my boost gauge, the
engine
is pulling the correct vacuum at idle, and there are no obvious loose
hoses
anywhere. I've also been running with a lightened flywheel and
clutch
assembly for quite some time, with consistent idle up to this point,
so I
think I can rule that out as a cause of this problem.
Last night, I attempted to swap the IAS motor with one from another
car,
but ended up stripping the head of one of the Phillips screws that
holds
the IAS motor onto the throttle body and gave up. Tonight I plan to
remove
the throttle body and somehow get the stripped screw out so I
can
thoroughly clean everything again, and try swapping the IAS motor
again.
Any other ideas?
Jeff W.
'92VR4
------------------------------
Sounds like you are on the right track with the idle servo replacement,
although I wonder if you took care to clean the ECU circuit board well.
The stuff that comes out of the electrolytic capacitors can cause shorts and
such on the PC board, even though it may be coated.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Wow! Thanks for the quick reply. I watched as a friend of mine did the
cap
swap for me on the ECU board. He went to great pains to clean the
board
thoroughly using alcohol and Q-Tips. So I'm assuming that's not
the
problem. And the idle problems were occurring both before and after
the
caps replacement.
I kinda hope you're right about the Idle Servo Motor. It's an
expensive
part, but at least I'll know that's the cause of my problem. I had
always
been led to believe that if the Servo Motor went bad, the car wouldn't
idle
period. So I was just guessing on whether it might be the source of
the
problem. But hopefully you're right and I'm on the right track. My car
has
162K miles on it and that servo has never been replaced.
Jeff W.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:45:00 -0600
From: "Curtis McConnell" <
Curtis.McConnell@Pulte.com>
Subject:
Team3S: New Stock Short Block or Forged Rebuild
I am posting for a friend......
He has a 94 VR-4 and spun a bearing a few weeks ago. His dilemma
is
should he get a new short block ($2,500 from Tallahassee Mits)
or
rebuild the motor with forged pistons. He has searched on 3si but
we
didn't see much of a defined way to go. He wants to hit about 600
crank
hp.
Money is an issue here but we go back and forth on what is the
most
reliable performance minded way to go.
I'm sure I left 100 things out, just thought I would leave it up to
the
experts....
Curtis McConnell
Posting for a friend
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:46:45 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: brakes
> You're starting to sound like Mohler --- comments but no
information.
hummmm, it appears to me this topic has had plenty of
"information"
dispersed previous, that said I'll defer to BS ;)
...wait...arent they the
same? ;)
General Disclaimer of Information Filler for the Ministers of Information
-
just had two new tires put on the rear (finally thru the 16p nail that
was
plugging the hole 16p hole)...jacked her up (two jacks under each
suspension
bit arms to keep axles straight) and put the ole High Speed
Balance (on car
balance, ack!! blasphemy!!!) to 130mph on the OD.....she
rides like a dream.
the slotted rotors look fab (well excepting the rust
where Porterfield
doenst anodize em), R4S pads are in great shape, time to
scrub the tires,
let her sit, clean her up, ride her hard, put away
wet.
carry on gents!
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:37:31 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: True or False
> Anyway, last time I was getting my oil changed
> a guy commented
on how good it was that I was
> using Mobil 1 synthetic in my car.
Then he
> said if I ever went back to a normal oil it would
> ruin
my engine. Is this true?
I'm gonna go with "False."
Most quality oils (synthetic or otherwise) are completely compatible with
each other - many manufacturers (like Mobil) explicitly state this on their
packaging and websites.
Any oil that meets the service rating for your engine and is of the proper
weight for your climate, as defined by Mitsubishi in your owners manual, should
be fine for use in your car. I've never heard of a single instance of
anyone "ruining his engine" by switching from synthetic to conventional or
vice-versa.
I switched from synthetic to conventional in my old NA 3000GT while I was
trying to get rid of the lash adjuster tick and it never caused problems.
It didn't remove the tick, so I went back to Mobil1. Still no
problems.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:10:41 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: True or False
One thing I will add (and feel free to correct me) is that on higher
mileage
engines that have always used non-synthetic, going to a synthetic may
be a
bad idea. Reason being, non-synthetic oil builds up a bit more sludge
and
grime especially when not changed often. On older engines gaskets and
seals
dry up and crack over time. That sludge ends up working as a
sealant.
Synthetic have detergents in them to clean that sludge. When
putting
synthetic into my 300,000 Audi (which never leaked a drop) over a
course of
2 months (5000mi) it started to leak from every possible place
imaginable.
Switching back to regular oil and adding a sealant helped the
problem, but
never resolved it...
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:24:33 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: True or False
I have had consistent bad luck with that scenario, every older motor used
to
conventional oils I tried to wean over to synth started
leaking/smoking
copiously. I have started using valvoline blend for older
motors with no
problem on my aged fleet.
Pete Rivenburg
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Casey Spivey <
spiv99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Wiring up '99 headlights
I am about ready to switch my '91 lights to the '99s and was
wondering
how to wire them up. I'm guessing that they don't use the
same wiring plugs.
Right now I have the conversion to the non sealed
beam headlight and I have
to use an adapter for that. Can someone
point me in the right direction?
Thanks, Casey
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:21:35 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
New Stock Short Block or Forged Rebuild
If you're doing serious mods then forged pistons should be high on
your
list. Stock block does not have forged pistons only God knows why ---
the
car has forged rods and forged crank which makes the engine
almost
bulletproof but the cast pistons are a [ somewhat ] weak spot. Matt
Monet
beat the crap out of stock internals at the strip -- his best was about
11.5
with turbos and some exhaust mods. Small amounts of detonation
will
brake the ring lands on the cast pistons.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:24:24 -0500
From: "Jesse Rink" <
jrink-3si@wi.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Lost a retaining clip for my injectors - ok?
Hey all,
Was swapping out my 550s today and going back to stock 360s
(diagnosing a
problem I'm having on the car), and one of the metal retaining
clips that
holds the injector wire connector on tightly slipped out of my
hands when
installing it. It did NOT fall in the intake manifold (I had
it covered).
Looks like it slipped down under the intake manifold (Not
IN). I can't find
it, I'm imagining it fell quite a ways. Should
I be ok here? I realize the
injector with the missing clip will be FINE
as lone as the connector doesn't
fall off (I cant imagine it will). My
bigger concern is, could that metal
clip cause any damage? I'm thinking I
should be alright... since it didnt
fall directly in anything that
could be caught in my cylinder or valves.
Let me know, thanks.
Jesse Rink
Eagle, WI
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:56:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: William Crabtree <
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Re: Team3S: New Stock Short Block or Forged Rebuild
No question whatsoever, go with forged pistons. I am dealing with
just this problem right now. I did a total overhaul on my '91 r/t tt and
used cast pistons for my rebuild. At the time I didn't understand the
difference and figured forged pistons were just another way for me to blow
$1000. Well, I'm paying for that choice now. 1,200 miles later I had
to tear down my motor and found that the cast pistons had expanded due to exteme
heat and pressure from my other perfromance mods. The result was that the
pistons had galled the sides of the cylinders.
I've been shopping.....
Tell your friend that a set of venolia pistons built to spec, with
everything you need (EXCEPT rings) will run him about $500.....ordered straight
from venolia. If you need more info on this, see Jeff Lucius's site (
www.stealth316.com )
maybe we could order together and get a break.
- -Jeff Crabtree
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:41:48 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Re:
Team3S: New Stock Short Block or Forged Rebuild
I have Venolia pistons and with rings, tool steel pins and pin oiling holes
the
price was up around $750. Pistons were about $420, pins $150,
machining
for pins $50 and rings $140.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:10:09 +0000
From:
mjannusch@comcast.netSubject: Re:
Re: Team3S: New Stock Short Block or Forged Rebuild
Actually this sounds more like a machining/clearance error than caused by
the
cast pistons. The stock cast pistons are more dimensionally stable
when
heated than forged pistons. What did your piston to wall
clearance measure
out to be?
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
(Ross pistons)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 03:12:28 +0000
From:
mjannusch@comcast.netSubject: Re:
Team3S: Lost a retaining clip for my injectors - ok?
> Looks like it slipped down under the intake manifold (Not IN).
It'll be resting in the "V" between cylinder banks. There's not
really
anything down there to worry about. I doubt it would bounce
around enough to
end up in the timing belt as there is a metal guard (with
vent slots) on that
end of the V. Most likely nothing to worry about,
but if you CAN get down in
there and extract it then it might be worth
doing. You'd have to remove the
intake manifold, and then the knock
sensor plate and coolant crossover tube
are both in your way to make it
difficult.
The injector harness plug will probably stay on without the metal clip in
it.
Have the one that's missing the clip be on the front side, just in
case... ;-)
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:37:20 -0400
From: "Brian Collins" <
bcturbo@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Brakes
Jeff,
It seems like you have done a little reading since we discussed this issue
a
couple of years ago:
"The amount of force "transferred" between surfaces depends on the
surface
area times the coefficient of friction - just like brake
pads and
rotors. More surface, then more force." -Jeff Lucius 8-29-01
I only remember this because I was stunned at the time that the great
Jeff
Lucius would say something so incorrect :)
Nice job on the explanations, BTW.
Brian Collins
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:33:31 -0500
From: "William J. Crabtree" <
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
RE: Re: Team3S: New Stock Short Block or Forged Rebuild
Matt,
I don't know to be honest with
you. I trusted the guys at my machine shop
to get this right the first
time around. We are approaching it the second
time with much more care
and attention to detail.
- -Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:33:30 -0500
From: "William J. Crabtree" <
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
RE: Re: Team3S: New Stock Short Block or Forged Rebuild
Jim,
I just talked to a guy
named "Dale" at venolia the a few days ago. He
broke my prices
down like this:
$58.15 per piston X 6 = 348.90
$ 3.25 per pin
fit x 6 = 19.50
$ 3.85 per pin oiler x 6
= 23.10
$15.15 Wrist pins X 6 =
90.90
-
----------------------------------
Total
482.40
Like I said, this is obviously without piston rings, but I'm still
trying to
decide what I need in that arena.
- -Jeff
------------------------------
Is there any way to inspect for this with the crank still in the car?
Will
I be able to see anything by pulling the end caps off the rods? I
dropped
the oil pan for another reason and found some copper flakes in the
bottom
of it. Not sure if they are new or left over from a previous
rebuild done
by someone else.
TIA
Jim W
92 3000GT SL currently littering the garage floor
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:58:31 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Re: Team3S: New Stock Short Block or Forged Rebuild
> I have Venolia pistons and with rings, tool steel pins and pin
>
oiling holes the price was up around $750. Pistons were about $420,
pins
$150, machining
> for pins $50 and rings $140
an additional data point for the gearheads....we carry CP Pistons which is
a
very nice piston.....
CP is part of the Pankl Racing Systems known worldwide in F1, WRC,
SCCA,
F3000, IRL, CART, NHRA...ect.....
your CP Pistons are totally custom, made on the same machines, by the
same
engineers as the racing bodies above. you choose piston size,
CR.....heck
you can even tell em what shape you want the piston, where you
want the pin,
design it yourself...but unless you are familiar with piston
design i would
leave it to them as they have the brains. ;)
$780 a set. comes complete with rings, pins, wire locs, pin fitting,
ready
to run. if you folks would like to do a Group Purchase or the like im
sure
we could massage the price a bit.
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#252
***************************************