Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, January 21
2003 Volume 02 : Number 059
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:09:05 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Compression Test
> Worn rings, typically - but not necessarily. My car read
the
> same as yours, with three fractured pistons. About 155
on
> the good ones, 120 on the busted ones.
Ugh! You got 120 with cracked pistons? Did adding oil to those
cylinders help the compression?
> What was the other problem that you were trying to diagnose
>
that made you try a compression test?
I filled up my tank with gas, and a couple of miles down the freeway I
started losing power. I pulled over to a service station. The
car was idling rough but no clacking or anything; sounded like a few
cylinders weren't firing or something. I shut off the car, and then it
wouldn't start back up. Had it towed home.
My first thought was bad gas, but draining 20 gallons of fuel is not a
small task so I figured I'd rule out other things first. :) I
checked to make sure I was getting compression, spark, and fuel.
I finally tracked it down to a flakey serial cable which had corrupted my
AEM's firmware. Bought a new serial cable, reloaded a saved
configuration, and started right up. Runs great now. It's okay
though, because I'd been meaning to do a compression test for a while now.
- - Brian
------------------------------
I missed the Survey request. Here is my reply on my mostly stock
94
VR-4:
92K miles: pops out of reverse a few times, tranny locks up at 20
MPH
starting from redlight - not a launch. Factory fluid - level OK, no
synchro problems at all.
110K miles: Transfer case rear seal pops out, t-case locks up
after
squeaking stop. The case was bone dry - paint peeling on the
outside.
120K miles: 35K junkyard T-case + 10K of my own miles input
splines
start stripping.
I have not had the car into the stealership about the t-case recall.
I want a new tranny output shaft, and new t-case under this recall.
- --
Marc J. Jacobs '94 Blue VR-4
xDSL Hardware
Development
Alcatel, USA (919) 850-6386
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:58:45 +0000
From:
mjannusch@attbi.comSubject: RE:
Team3S: Compression Test
> Ugh! You got 120 with cracked pistons? Did
> adding
oil to those cylinders help the compression?
Adding oil to the cylinders raised compression about 15 psi. Since
there were
sections of ringland missing from the pistons, I assume there was
a lot of
ring flutter, which the oil helped to "patch" since there wasn't
any ignition
in the cylinders during compression testing.
Check your sparkplugs and look at the electrodes very carefully to see if
they've been hit by anything. If they look perfect, then you are
probably in
good shape. If they've got gouges or pits in them then you
might want to try
to get your hands on a borescope to look at the piston
edges in the suspect
cylinders.
I hope that it isn't anything serious.
> I finally tracked it down to a flakey serial cable
> which had
corrupted my AEM's firmware. Bought a
> new serial cable, reloaded a
saved configuration,
> and started right up. Runs great now.
Hmm, that's not a very cool thing for the AEM to do. Hopefully it
didn't
screw up your timing and hose anything up while it was unhappy.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:07:02 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Compression Test
All the plugs look fine, so hopefully I'll be okay. Maybe I'll try to
find a local mechanic who'll let me use a boroscope for a few
minutes...
> Check your sparkplugs and look at the electrodes
very
> carefully to see if they've been hit by anything.
> If they
look perfect, then you are probably in good
> shape. If they've got
gouges or pits in them then you
> might want to try to get your hands on
a borescope to
> look at the piston edges in the suspect cylinders.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:02:58 -0600
From: "William Jeffrey Crabtree"
<
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Engine install
For anybody interested;
My motor went back in the car yesterday.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:06:49 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Knocking noise
Help!
I was doing some cosmetic work in my engine bay this weekend and now I
have
a problem.
I removed the intake plenum and front valve cover in order to paint
them.
When I reinstalled them I was careful to put everything back just like
it
came out. When I started the car back up I noticed a slight tick,
silence,
tick, silence, tick and it was running terribly. When I rechecked
everything
I realized that I had some vacuum lines on wrong the three vacuum
lines that
come to the bottom of the fitting junction by the throttle body,
had been
put on backwards. I fixed them, I knew they were color coded but in
my haste
mixed them up the first time. When I restarted the car it was hard
to start
and when it did there was a knocking sound from under the front
valve cover.
I pulled it back off to see if something was hitting and there
was nothing.
Fearing that somehow my timing belt had slipped, I spent most of
today
taking the timing belt cover etc off to check. All of the timing marks
line
up, so it doesn't appear to have slipped. Any suggestions?
I don't want to put everything back together and still have the same
knock.
This was not happening before removing the intake plenum and valve
cover.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:26:58 -0800
From: "Andrius Masiulis" <
andrius@vb.lt>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Knocking noise
Do you have all the bolts...? Don't have more ideas.
Hope it's just a
small problem.
------------------------------
What Mark Frouhar warned me about changing the rear wheel bearings came
true:
>if things are really seized it can be challenging I suppose.
No sh*t, Sherlock.
>You'll need to get the caliper/rotor off, then you'll either have to
hammer slide the axle out or carefully hammer it from the other
side(inwards) after disconnecting the four bolts that couple it.
The Mitsu manual was of little help.
Mark's post helped the most.
I was up at Denny's Mufflers in Cedar Rapids, where I get tough work like
this done. It's kinda scary to watch a 270 lb mechanic take some hefty
CLANGS at the axle with a slide hammer, and it don't move. Oh shit, now
what? Was Mark wrong? Why isn't the axle coming out?
So four mechanics peer at the computer screen, trying to figure out
Mitsubishi's weird manual. Eventually, they decided to pry this way and
tap that way on the back of the axle with a wooden mallet like Mark said,
and out came the axle -- which, as is my typical luck, was worn, warped
and has to be replaced. The other axle, which was not worn and warped, slid
right out like it's supposed to.
We need for somebody to document this procedure with a camera and post it
to the web somewhere.
I can just image what some cold shed DIY mechanic would do if faced with
the same problem that we just went through. Or some poor owner who has his
local shop do the work. Tips and photos would really help future rear
wheel bearing changes.
Another point, especially for racers: Denny's chief mechanic guru diagnosed
the problem as follows: Apparently, the inner bearing went bad first,
heated up and did some "victory laps." I am not entirely sure what this
means, but it led to the quick destruction of the outer bearing. With two
bearings bad, the wobbling wore down the shaft, so I had to replace the
entire hub/shaft assembly (about $140). He says the outer bearing is
woefully small for racing purposes, and ought to be doubled up. This
requires machining of the hub to accommodate another axle bearing, but
that's beyond Denny's abilities, so we'll do no rear axle redesignin'
'round here.
NEVERTHELESS, road racers might want to pay close attention to the status
of their rear bearings. If you detect any looseness at all, I suggest you
replace the bearings immediately, before they wear down the shaft. In my
case, bearings were bad on both sides in the rear, but only one hub wore
down.
The test is simple: Jack up the car, and wiggle the wheel to see if it
moves up and down. Do this every time you change tires. If there is ANY
movement, hope that it is JUST a wheel bearing. Each rear shaft has an
inner and an outer bearing, and they are about $15 each. If you get to it
before the shaft warps, it's a reasonably simple job. Providing you know what
you are doing, of course.
Rich/slow old poop
94 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:01:40 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Survey time
An update on the Getrag survey. I'm adding a link to a
static
spreadsheet like the one I am entering all the data into. It has
a
simple graph at this time charting the number of success and
failures
per generation. Second gen cars are almost even on success vs.
failure
and first and third gen are 1:2.5 or 1:3 ratio. I'll throw more
stuff
in it as people give me ideas and as we gather more data.
Thanks
everyone for your input.
- 37 people responded so far
- 42 cars reported (9 Dodge, 32 Mitsubishi,
and 1 GTO)
- 18 "success" reports covering 1,359,900 miles and averaging at
75.6k
miles
- 30 "failure" reports covering 1,854,200 miles and averaging
at 61.8k
miles
--Flash!
------------------------------
Maybe you guys pointed this out already, but it's just a general
question.
the Getrag is a German transmission used in the VR-4, but also in the Supra
and many other cars. Why did it not break on them? Except for AWD, the
stock
Supra and VR-4 have similar numbers, so where is the difference coming
from?
mike
97 SL
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:36:08 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Knocking noise
OK little update. Checking further I realized that the rear cam on the
front
head had slipped a notch on the belt. Would this be enough to bend
valves
and/or cause even more internal damage?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:03:37 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Survey time
Great, another 1500 respondents and we'll have enough data to make
a
statistical analysis which will tell us that the tranny may fail at 71,087
miles.
We already know that it may fail prematurely --- or it may not.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:06:26 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Survey time
Totally different design --- I would expect almost zero common parts.
If
it weren't such a limited production run they may have even corrected
the
problem.
Jim
Berry
===============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: <
M3000GTSL84@aol.com>
Sent: Monday,
January 20, 2003 6:07 PM
> Maybe you guys pointed this out already, but it's just a general
question.
>
> the Getrag is a German transmission used in the VR-4,
but also in the Supra
> and many other cars. Why did it not break on
them? Except for AWD, the stock
> Supra and VR-4 have similar
numbers, so where is the difference coming from?
>
> mike
>
97 SL
------------------------------
At least we aren't bugging the list by publishing every single
response.
It's all going on off list.
Maybe we will get 1500 responses and actually learn something meaningful
about our transmissions that will encourage Mits to do something
responsible about the situation.
Rich
At 07:03 PM 1/20/03 -0800, fastmax wrote:
>Great, another 1500
respondents and we'll have enough data to make a
>statistical analysis
which will tell us that the tranny may fail at 71,087 miles.
>We already
know that it may fail prematurely --- or it may not.
------------------------------
I wouldn't even consider the VR4 tranny a "problem"..for all we know,
that
was "good enough" for the contract, and Mitsu/Dodge didn't want to
spend
more $ on a better design. Again, don't blame Getrag.
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, fastmax wrote:
> Totally different design --- I would expect almost zero common
parts.
> If it weren't such a limited production run they may have even
corrected
> the problem.
>
> Jim Berry
------------------------------
Like what..re-introduce the car to the market to present a viable case
to
_consider_ doing something?
Give it up merritt, study other people with larger problems, with a
much
larger install base, that got shit because the numbers didn't
work.
No offense, but I'll kiss a pig if Mitsu did more than say "Thank you
for
caring.." and hung up.
> At least we aren't bugging the list by publishing every single
response.
> It's all going on off list.
> Maybe we will get 1500
responses and actually learn something meaningful
> about our
transmissions that will encourage Mits to do something
> responsible about
the situation.
> Rich
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:36:40 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Survey time
Jim - Not to sound biased (since I am running the data gathering leg
of
the survey) but I have responded to several "newer" owners who
said,
"You mean it *isn't* supposed to grind like that? I think I'll go
ask
the dealer to replace it since it has been less than a few months
and
was like this when I bought it" or "Well it was like that when I
bought
it and was the same as two other 3000GTs I looked at so I thought it
was
part of the feature."
So it might tell us exactly what average mile people lose it (you
see
some go to 120k and some lose it at under 1k miles) but after
the
initial data gathering has been accomplished I will have a list
of
people who will respond more quickly and more accurately on the
next
survey (which might be which synchro is worn, what speed does it
occur,
is it fluid related, temperature related, etc.) and then we could
have
the tips on how to avoid this like shift into 2nd under 15 mph
or
double-clutch. If just one person saves their 2nd gear synchro
from
shredding by reading the tips page then I feel we have won. That
person
tells another and so on and soon the trick of saving the synchro is
as
common place as how to do a good AWD launch (or those on the
success
side can tell us how they shift and what prolongs theirs for so
long).
Someone along the way felt their "lifter tick" was annoying but
thought
nothing of it. Then another owner complained. Now we have
a whole page
dedicated to that. The list goes on and on. This
will someday get
tucked into the archives and FAQ for reference. I was
glad that someone
told me, when I was shopping for my car, to check if the
leather on the
driver's door armrest was pulling up or showing wear or that
the drain
tubes in the drain channels of the trunk drained properly.
Had I not
known that I would have bought a poorer maintained car instead of
the
one I currently own. This too will be on a page of tips such as
"see if
the 1-2 or 2-3 synchros are grinding and if so then do not buy the
car
without a free tranny replacement" or something.
--Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
At 07:03 PM 1/20/03 -0800, fastmax
wrote:
>Great, another 1500 respondents and we'll have enough data to make
a
>statistical analysis which will tell us that the tranny may fail at
>71,087 miles. We already know that it may fail prematurely --- or it
>may not.
------------------------------
If Flash and I (mostly Flash) are doing this off list, WTF do you care? Why
does this bug you guys? We're trying to NOT clutter this list, and you and
others continue to use the list to belittle our efforts.
Let it run its course, and let's see where it leads before you ridicule the
survey.
All other nonbelievers and skeptics: kindly keep snotty comments about the
survey off the list. Address all comments to: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Flash: I've lost track of the page. You've moved it so many times, I can't
find it any more. Whereizzit?
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:56:30 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Survey time
Not to seem uninterested but don't feel you have to funnel *all*
the
snotty comments to me just because Rich gave out my email. Feel
free to
email him snotty remarks too. =) So there, Rich.
Now then, back to the survey.
- --Flash!
"... You snotty face heap of parrot droppings!" (line from
Monty
Python's "Argument Clinic")
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:18:53 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Knocking noise
OK, I have the valve cover off once again and by moving the crank by hand
I
can see all of the valves go up and down without any sticking. Guess
I'll
try to get a scope tomorrow and look inside the cylinders.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Sent: Monday,
January 20, 2003 6:36 PM
> OK little update. Checking further I realized that the rear cam
on
> the front head had slipped a notch on the belt. Would this be
>
enough to bend valves and/or cause even more internal damage?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:30:29 -0600
From: "Richard Fennell" <
realmstl@charter.net>
Subject: Fw:
Team3S: Knocking noise
You can have a bent valve and it won't stick. This is the case most
of the
time.
Do a compression check. That will tell a lot.
Good luck,
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:58:12 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Getting My Bearings
>> We need for somebody to document this procedure with a camera and
post
>> it to the web somewhere.
So .... did you take pictures and notes????
If you did, contact me
off-list.
If not, DOH! :)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:09:18 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Survey time
I'm very interested in learning the results of this survey. No
offense,
Jim, but no one has asked you to spend any of your valuable
time
collecting data and doing the analysis. So if you think the survey
has
nothing to add to your knowledge base, then you can ignore it.
- -----Original Message-----
At 07:03 PM 1/20/03 -0800, fastmax
wrote:
>Great, another 1500 respondents and we'll have enough data to make
a
>statistical analysis which will tell us that the tranny may fail at
>71,087 miles. We already know that it may fail prematurely --- or it
>may not.
------------------------------
Close. I should have been more clear.
I wanted to point out that
it wasn't a synchro problem. It locked up -
which is dangerous. I
was fortunate that I was only going 20MPH. It
locked in the middle of
an intersection too. There was just enough room
for cars to get around
me. It was replaced by the Mitsubishi dealership
with one from
CRS. I don't know if it was rebuilt or not.
The second failure was the rear seal on the transfer case. All
the
fluid leaked out, the car came to a grinding & squeaking stop.
The
t-case was locked up - this is the reason for the recent recall.
I
bought one from a junkyard that had ~35K on it. I will be going back
to
the dealership with my old fried one, and get a new one.
The third failure is the splines on the output shaft to the
transfer
case. Again, not a synchro problem, but this is not something
that
should ever fail. The only time I have seen splines strip is on
big 4x4
trucks that usually break axles a few times before the splines fail.
The splines were probably weakened by the t-case locking up earlier -
so
I want them to replace the output shaft too.
SHORT VERSION(s).
1994 VR-4 (stock)
92,000 miles was first sign of
trouble and this was tranny locking up
but no synchro problems; dealer
replaced with CRS tranny.
110,000 miles rear seal on transfer case fails, and the transfer case
locks
up due to no fluid; replaced it myself with junkyard t-case.
120,000 (really 28,000) miles the splines between the transmission
and
transfer case begin slipping on hard launches.
I think the second failure can be eliminated unless you are
tracking
transfer case failures too.
- --
Marc J. Jacobs '94 Blue VR-4
xDSL Hardware
Development
Alcatel, USA (919) 850-6386
Darren Schilberg wrote:
>
> Marc - Thanks. Help me boil
this down to one line.
>
...snip...
> How about we list it as
92k miles for first trouble and now at 45k miles
> your second one is
wearing. Yes? I will split this into two separate
> failure
reports. Sound good?
>
> --Flash!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:31:06 -0700
From: "Zach Sauerman" <
axemaddock@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: '94 TT for sale
Brethren,
I have decided that I must sell my baby. I will probably regret it, but
things are at that point..
Here's information for those interested:
'94 Pearl Yellow TT
97,000
miles
K&N FIPK, intake heat shield, Magnecore wires, intercooler
free-flow mesh,
Autometer vacuum/ boost gauge, TecPerformance strut tower
bar.
recent water pump and timing belt replacement, tires less than 10k,
records
and receipts since her birth, religious maintenance.
She is in
Del Rio, TX at Laughlin AFB. Please contact me at
axemaddock@hotmail.com or
719-930-1177.
We'll talk price.
In sorrow,
Zach Sauerman
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#59
**************************************