Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth    Tuesday, March 5 2002    Volume 01 : Number 772




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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 03:27:50 EST
From: Merlin916@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Double Clutching 

  PS - there is a certian reference to double clutching in a recent movie
that was released about the southern california drag racing scene.  Double
clutching is NOT used in drag racing, because it is NOT necessary when
upshifting.  This is just another point of that particular film that I
personally found rather annoying, to the point that I called up a few of the
gents that I graduated Skip Barber with to complain about it....

just had to get that out,

Joe

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 05:31:51 -0800
From: "Andrew D. Woll" <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Double Clutching

Double Clutching - This is something done only when downshifting. If you are
in 5th, for example, you put in the clutch and as you go through neutral you
let the clutch out and give it a shot of gas. This increases the speed of
the shafts on which the 4th gear syncro is moving so that it is moving at
the same speed as the 5th gear. You then put the clutch in again and move
the shifter into 4th. The clutch is then let out again. This is all done
very quickly and smoothly. The net result is that the syncros engage
smoothly and there is little or no lurch when the clutch is let out and the
shifter is in the next lowest gear. It helps to save the syncros also.

Andy
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <apedenko@attbi.com>
To: <team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 11:08 PM
Subject: Team3S: Double Clutching

> Okay, I've heard this term thrown around a lot (double
> clutching) - could somebody please explain to me what
> that is and how to do it?
>
>   Thanks,
>
>     Alex.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:26:57 +0100
From: Jim Matthews <jim@the-matthews.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Street Dyno rocks!

>I did not have to fudge any numbers to come up with the 320 HP. I have a
>stock car (enjoying its last few stock days) and I used 26% drivetrain loss
>as determined by Joe G. and the other guys who went to Chicago in January
>to dyno their cars. I also used an SAE correction factor of 0.936 because
>this is what came with the program.

What is being converted to SAE?  According to the Road & Track Dictionary, the conversion factor for KW to DIN PS is 1.36
and for DIN PS to SAE HP is 1.014.  My dyno info is at http://www.team3s.com/~matthews/stealth.html#Dyno.  Do you have
anything similar (curves, etc.) that can be posted for review?  Thanks!

- - --
Jim Matthews - Munich, Germany
mailto:jim@the-matthews.com (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://www.the-matthews.com

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
      http://www.the-matthews.com/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R v.1 (1.0 bar @ 64% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Super Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Optima Red Top 830 Battery
Redline synth fluids (trans= MT-90, xfer & diff= SPHvy)
Cryoed rotors, R4S pads, braided lines, red calipers
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 171 mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 367 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
- - --
Jim Matthews - Munich, Germany
mailto:jim@the-matthews.com (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://www.the-matthews.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:42:23 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Y-pipe Availability

This is the one my son bought me as a gift.  Only problem is that the tap
for the little hose that goes down to the BOV is too long and at the wrong
angle.  You will need to cut it off to avoid clearance problems with the
window washer reservoir fill spout.

Chuck

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Floyd, Jim [SMTP:Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 12:07 PM
> To: Team 3S
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Y-pipe Availability
>
> www.DNPerformance.com
> Polished SS
> Pictures of it installed on 3/S cars on his site.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:46:51 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Cross Drilled and Slotted Front Rotors

So how can these rotors fit all VR4 from 1990(?)-1998?

caveat emptor!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Jeys [SMTP:tj@jeys.net]
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 8:58 PM
> To: Team 3s
> Subject: Team3S: Cross Drilled and Slotted Front Rotors
>
> Good deal on a pair of cross drilled and slotted rotors if anyone is
> interested.
>
> http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1808
> 783546&r=0&t=0
>
> T.J. 1992 3000GT VR-4
> tj@jeys.net

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:53:07 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivers side Intercooler

[Willis, Charles E.]  Just take the bumper off, man, and get on with it.
It's not a big deal, and while it's off you can get it repainted - the lower
edge is probably scratched up anyhow. 

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:55:14 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivers side Intercooler

Buy a bunch of new trim clips from the dealer and take a pair of dykes
(that's pliers with sharp edges like scissors) and just cut the trim clips
off.

Chuck

> The first time, plan on it
> taking a couple hours because of those @#%$# plastic "clip with the screw
> in
> the center" thingies that hold the wheelwell splashguards in place. 

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:58:10 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Apparently My Synchros Are Still Good...

Sam,

some of us just aren't very coordinated!

Chuck
(who missed an upshift to 4th at the track last weekend, blowing a beautiful
pass)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Shelat [SMTP:sshelat@erols.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 3:27 PM
> To: Willis, Charles E.; 'Floyd, Jim'; Team3S List (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Apparently My Synchros Are Still Good...
>
> I don't know how the heck you guys do that. 

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:04:53 -0700
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Size of the clamp needed for stock Y-Pipe

I'm not sure off the top of my head what size the y-pipe is, but whatever
clamp you get, you should plan on taking it somewhere that has an
industrial belt sander, or grinder to make it narrower. These t-clamps are
too wide to fit the groove in the stock y-pipe. Been there, done that.........

W

At 06:52 PM 3/3/02 -0700, Moe Prasad wrote:
>What size T-Clamp should I buy from Summit Racing for my stock Y-pipe?

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:05:30 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Double Clutching

simple to say.  takes practice to execute well, especially 1) rev matching
and 2) timing to get this all done smoothly and back in gear before the
rev's drop.

Blipping the throttle goes a long way to smoothing out downshifts and rev
matching is less critical.  Proper double clutching is indeed easier on the
synchros, but bad double clutching is harder on them.

I guess I'm not having a problem with turbo lag with stock turbos, so I
don't really see that as a real advantage.

Chuck Willis
(who is not coordinated enough to double-clutch consistantly)

> Double clutching is simple.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:10:19 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Apparently My Synchros Are Still Good...

I missed this entire episode/report -- did I get kicked off yet another forum? Did Chuckie file a report on his racing weekend? If so, I'd sure like to read it.

Rich/slow old poop but out of the loop somehow.

At 08:58 AM 3/4/02 -0600, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
>Sam,
>some of us just aren't very coordinated!
>Chuck
>(who missed an upshift to 4th at the track last weekend, blowing a beautiful
>pass)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: 04 Mar 2002 11:27:37 -0600
From: Jon Bohlke <bohlke_mobile@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Gtech Competition

My friend and I have wondered about the accuracy and precision of the
Gtech pro.  Since there has been a bit of dicussion about it here I
thought I would share the results of his test.  He took the Gtech with
him to the dragstrip at Maple Grove.  He ran 4-5 times that day and said
that the G-Tech was accurate on the ET but was optimistic on the speed.
I think he said that the Gtech was within .1s of the ET reported on the
timeslip in each run.  He drives a C5 but I don't hold that against him
:) , though I am not sure that it makes a difference what type of car
you use to test the Gtech.

Jon
98 Pearl White VR4
http://3000gt.websnout.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:55:32 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: Team3S: track report - March 2-3, 2002

I'll keep it brief because my fingers are still frostbitten.

March 2-3, 2002, Lone Star Region Porsche Club of America High Speed Drivers
Education at Texas World Speedway in College Station, Texas.

I thought I was going to get a lot of free time, but at the last minute got
asked to instruct.  When we left Houston Saturday morning, it was 54
degrees.  By the time we reached College Station, 90 miles northwest, it was
34 degrees and dropping.  I've never seen so many people wearing helmets
standing around the grid!

My dear wife, Diana, accompanied me in the '93 VR4 and helped me set up the
'94 VR4 for the track.  I missed the first Red session Saturday morning, but
had three really excellent sessions later.  First run, I drove with the DSBC
set at low boost (about 10 psi) which was plenty.  Second run, I took out a
former student, and went off track for the first time in 2 and a half years.
We were following a Porsche into Turn 4.  He had just filled up with fuel
and didn't have the cap on right.  He started sloshing fuel over one of his
tires and started doing the death wiggle at track out, about when we hit the
apex.  I said "sh&t." and "We're going off."  I had the choice of hitting
him, adding steering, spining and hitting him, or unwinding steering and
driving straight off the track, which is what I did. No damage to either car
- - thanks the the wonders of AWD, no tow truck necessary!  At least the guy
had the courtesy to explain what happened later in the paddock.

Had a fun follow the leader with a race-prepped BMW.  One lap I executed
13-14-15 perfectly and he didn't and I flew up past him, and then missed the
upshift into 4th (duh) so I looked like a jerk. I couldn't really press him
on Sunday, but Saturday I had him on the ropes.

I was blessed with a Green student in a V8 Firebird who had 15 years of
ralley and sprint racing in the UK and a Blue student already Solo qualified
with an '85 (Euro) 930 Turbo.  Green student advanced to Blue on Sunday,
Blue student advanced to Yellow last session Sunday.  I was really just
baggage and fine tuning - it's so easy when the driver already has all the
car control skills.

At the end of the first Red session Sunday, a race-prepped Porsche (my Team
Leader) dumped 14 quarts of oil on the line from Turn 2 through Turn 9.  I
was on the track about 1/2 lap behind him, and approaching the end of the
main straight at about one-twenty-something when the debris flag came out.
Not knowing where or what kind of debris, I dumped as much speed as possible
in the flat approaching turnin for Turn 2.  You can't just brake harder,
because you don't know if the debris is actually in your braking zone, you
just brake for a longer time and try to feel if you have grip.  Then as I
turned in I noticed the two Porsches in front of me going squirrelly at the
apex and trackout for Turn 2.  So was I at the apex, but saved by the
miracles of AWD!  Then you breathe hard and think you're out of trouble.  We
get around the track to Turn 6 and the same two cars are kicking up dirt at
the track out for Turn 6.  The oil was barely visible, only a slightly
darker gray than the pavement.  They shut down the track to spread kitty
litter and then sent the Green students out to soak it up!  Actually, the
grip was not bad after the kitty litter.  The delay caused them to combine
Red and White groups.

When we gridded up for the last Red/White session, a race-prepped 944 in the
Yellow group dumped a ten foot wide sixty foot long swath of oil on the line
through Turn 5 during their checkered lap.  The kitty litter was only
marginally successful - I drove a displaced turnin apex and trackout the
entire session (slow).

Diana was only able to clock a few laps because of the high wind and low
temp.  I haven't looked at the numbers, but she was saying I was running
2:15's a couple of 2:10's and some 2:20's in the last oily session.  I think
were gonna invest in a lap timer, because there are lots of other things
Diana could be doing.

I corded another front right tire.  I still have a spare that will go on the
rear.  Maybe the miracle antisway bars will stop this. This is the 3rd event
on the same oil change and brake fluid, and about 5th or so on the same set
of Panther Plus pads, although last month was only one of two days.  I'm
finally seeing come wear on the pads, maybe new ones next time.

No overtemp problems!

Chuck Willis
94 VR4
DSBC
GReddy? filter charger
GC and Eibach springs
Porterfield Crossdrilled front and rear rotors
Panther Plus brake pads
Goodridge stainless steel brake lines
GReddy SuperDrager exhaust
Volk TE37 17" wheels
Yoko AO37 255R40Z17 tires
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 18:21:20 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Hesitation ;-)

Either spark blowout or timing retarded due to knock. Definitely NOT fuel
cut (otherwise you'd have bitten into the steering wheel). An no, there is
no active intake that can switch :-)

And from now on never ever use a percentage in drivetrain loss or at least
do not mention it as it is absolutely wrong.

> I do not have any datalogging on my '95 car. My guess is that it was
either
> some knock and the resulting ignition retardation, or a little fuel cut at
> 4000 rpm (is this even possible on a stock car at this rpm?) It could also
> be the active intake switching.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:35:14 -0500
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Street Dyno rocks!

>>I did not have to fudge any numbers to come up with the 320 HP. I have a
>>stock car (enjoying its last few stock days) and I used 26% drivetrain
loss
>>as determined by Joe G. and the other guys who went to Chicago in January

>>to dyno their cars. I also used an SAE correction factor of 0.936 because

>>this is what came with the program.

>What is being converted to SAE?  According to the Road & Track Dictionary,
the >conversion factor for KW to DIN PS is 1.36
>and for DIN PS to SAE HP is 1.014.  My dyno info is at
>http://www.team3s.com/~matthews/stealth.html#Dyno.  Do you have
>anything similar (curves, etc.) that can be posted for review?  Thanks!

I have not figured out yet what that SAE correction factor is. Someone with
the knowledge please enlighten us. It is definitely not a unit conversion
thing. It is my understanding that there are other non-SAE correction
factors, which are used to compensate for difference in engine testing with
and without different accessories like power steering, A/C, ventilation,
lighting, and other things that belong to the car and not the engine.

In the end all I can measure and all I care for is the HP at the wheels. If
I set the correction factor to 1.00 and the drivetrain loss to 0% then I
will get the HP at the wheels and this is what I will use for tuning.

I will post the curves later this week. BTW, has anyone calculated the
frontal area of the car?

Philip

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:33:52 -0500
From: "Tom Terflinger" <terflit@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: Tune-in Tokyo!

Would any members in or around the Columbus OH area be interested in helping
me tune some aftermarket devices? In particular a HKS EVC, GCC, and VPC. The
car is running rich and gas mileage is awfull. Or email me suggestions, last
night I set everything to 0 so should = stock and I turned off the EVC. I
want to be able to use these components correctly!


Thanks,
Tom
92 VR4
TNT3KGT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:37:46 -0500
From: "Tom Terflinger" <terflit@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: Top 20

I know there is a lot of talk about the top 2 or 3 fastest stealths and
3kgts but is there a list anywhere (maybe Dave B. or Jeff L's websites)
which contains the top 10 or 20 cars and owners times? This would be a neat
resource as we could all strive to make the list and advance towards the #1
position! We could have times approved by the admins perhaps and every time
must be backed up by an slip.

Food for thought,

Tom
92 VR4
TNT3KGT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:50:07 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Street Dyno rocks!

This drivetrain loss issue has been rehashed more times [ without resolution
I might add ] that it probably the leader in archive volume.

I too wish we could get people to use wheel HP only and quit trying to guess
at the flywheel numbers.

        Jim Berry
==================================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com>
To: <team3s@team3s.com>; <jim@the-matthews.com>
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Street Dyno rocks!

> >>I did not have to fudge any numbers to come up with the 320 HP. I have a
> >>stock car (enjoying its last few stock days) and I used 26% drivetrain
> loss
> >>as determined by Joe G. and the other guys who went to Chicago in January
>
> >>to dyno their cars. I also used an SAE correction factor of 0.936 because
>
> >>this is what came with the program.
>
> >What is being converted to SAE?  According to the Road & Track Dictionary,
> the >conversion factor for KW to DIN PS is 1.36
> >and for DIN PS to SAE HP is 1.014.  My dyno info is at
> >http://www.team3s.com/~matthews/stealth.html#Dyno.  Do you have
> >anything similar (curves, etc.) that can be posted for review?  Thanks!
>
> I have not figured out yet what that SAE correction factor is. Someone with
> the knowledge please enlighten us. It is definitely not a unit conversion
> thing. It is my understanding that there are other non-SAE correction
> factors, which are used to compensate for difference in engine testing with
> and without different accessories like power steering, A/C, ventilation,
> lighting, and other things that belong to the car and not the engine.
>
> In the end all I can measure and all I care for is the HP at the wheels. If
> I set the correction factor to 1.00 and the drivetrain loss to 0% then I
> will get the HP at the wheels and this is what I will use for tuning.
>
> I will post the curves later this week. BTW, has anyone calculated the
> frontal area of the car?
>
> Philip

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:57:02 -0500
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ;-)

Hey, Roger, let's discuss this. I expressed the drivetrain loss as a
percentage of engine horsepower because this is the commonly accepted way
of doing it. The Street Dyno software requires it to be entered. I
understand that it is a simplification and the drivetrain loss is not
always directly proportional to the engine horsepower. A better theory that
I heard of says that there is a static friction component to it or simply a
zero offset and also a dynamic friction part, which increases with speed
and torque but less than 1:1. This means that if you double you horsepower
your drivetrain losses will less than double. Nobody has been able to put
any numbers on this though.

What is your theory?

Philip

"Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch wrote:
>And from now on never ever use a percentage in drivetrain loss or at least
>do not mention it as it is absolutely wrong.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:00:08 -0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Top 20

> I know there is a lot of talk about the top 2 or 3 fastest
> stealths and 3kgts but is there a list anywhere (maybe
> Dave B. or Jeff L's websites) which contains the top 10 or
> 20 cars and owners times?

There are a few out there...  This one seems to be updated the most.  There
are undoubtedly fast cars that aren't on the list, but if people don't
submit their times...

http://www.mn3s.org/fastest3s.html

I think 3si.org has a list somewhere, but their site is being veeeery slow
for me today.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:10:00 -0800
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Street Dyno rocks!

I have an NA 93 R/T w 168 at the wheels.....very little mods to
assume anything other than stock numbers for the flywheel....when
done I plan to put 220-250 at the wheels and will measure from
there......I doubt anyone claiming hp at the fly will pull his car or
even has put thier motor on a dyno to  back up the claim...these are
people who say the K&N will boost hp by 12 and Magnecores will add
another 5hp..for a total of 17+ on top of the 220 base #..if we all
used this method to figure dyno #'s then my car will be easily 400hp
at the crank when all mods are done ( I am not that retarded )
Anyone who has done a dyno run knows what I am talking about.....even
a 5 hp gain takes alot of work......it's not like slapping on a
bumper sticker and saying I got 20hp more now......I was told by the
dyno man that every change in the flow of power....shaft to
shaft...will lose power....by that sense then an AWD car car will
have a higher loss than a FWD car....I can't stand the claims of a
gutted cat adding hp like 40 or something.....It's just a marketing
scheme at best.

K&N,Accel coils and wires,cam gears,cams,springs,SAFC,polished intake
and port matched heads,mandrel bent exhaust, headers (very soon),
down pipe (my own product) 360 injectors,fresh motor w/coated forged
pistons,AL flywheel, underdrive pully...the good one...and a lot of
well balanced tires and a bible and I will pray for 250 at the wheels
on my NA......from 168? this will be very close....
- ---- Original Message ----
From: fastmax@cox.net
To: team3s@team3s.com, jim@the-matthews.com, pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Street Dyno rocks!
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:50:07 -0800

>This drivetrain loss issue has been rehashed more times [ without
>resolution
>I might add ] that it probably the leader in archive volume.
>
>I too wish we could get people to use wheel HP only and quit trying
>to guess
>at the flywheel numbers.
>
>        Jim Berry
>==================================================

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:07:14 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ;-)

Numbers can be found on the dyno curves on my 3000GT pages. No theory as we
measure drivetrrain loss and not are guessing.

You can search for the discussion in the archive.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

> Hey, Roger, let's discuss this.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:21:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ;-)

No offense to anyone..but the HP loss is..well, _really_ unimportant.

This isnt targetted at Roger or anyone else..but to argue drivetrain loss
makes me think that you want to use crank #s to use as a tool to
benchrace with someone else.

The only number that matters, is whats on the ground.

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Roger Gerl wrote:

> Numbers can be found on the dyno curves on my 3000GT pages. No theory as we
> measure drivetrrain loss and not are guessing.
>
> You can search for the discussion in the archive.
>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT
> www.rtec.ch
>
> > Hey, Roger, let's discuss this.

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:25:35 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Street Dyno rocks!

Maybe we should convince Bob to drive down to my place so we can do a few
runs with the Road Dyno and compare numbers and the shapes of the curves
with the actual ones from the real dyno... 

Bob, is your car still torn apart?

- --Erik

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ek2mfg [mailto:ek2mfg@foxinternet.com]
>
> I have an NA 93 R/T w 168 at the wheels.....very little mods to
> assume anything other than stock numbers for the flywheel

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:32:18 -0800
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Street Dyno rocks!

I spent the whole day yesterday drilling out spot welds to remove the
front buckets...I figure by April 1st I will be ready to do that for
ya.....engine mods will be done late summer when the motor comes out
so it could be apples to apples...I am game but if you saw my car
right now you would say it went through an episode of GTA3....and I
am on the run!!!!! New buckets come in this week and one more piece
to buy (center radiator support) and its on the way back
together.....man I got a lot of metric bolts laying around my garage
with this parts car and conversion going on.....hope I get it right :)

- ---- Original Message ----
From: erik.gross@intel.com
To: ek2mfg@foxinternet.com, team3s@team3s.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Street Dyno rocks!
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:25:35 -0800

>Maybe we should convince Bob to drive down to my place so we can do
>a few
>runs with the Road Dyno and compare numbers and the shapes of the
>curves
>with the actual ones from the real dyno... 
>
>Bob, is your car still torn apart?
>
>--Erik
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ek2mfg [mailto:ek2mfg@foxinternet.com]
>>
>> I have an NA 93 R/T w 168 at the wheels.....very little mods to
>> assume anything other than stock numbers for the flywheel

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:54:59 -0800 (PST)
From: menalteed <menalteed@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivers side Intercooler

Yes I will take my bumper off and take my intercoolers
out for proper cleaning, my new turbos are back in and
I would hate to not do a proper job. My service manual
calls for the removel of the oil cooler to get the
intercooler out on the drivers side. The question is,
is this true, it looks like it should be in front of
the oil cooler, in anycase I'm ordering clips for the
front panels but would like to know if I need to take
out the oil cooler then I should order some crush
washers at the same time. If anyone who has removed
the incooler without removing the oil cooler I would
like to hear from you on how to do it.

Peter 1992 Stealth RT TT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:58:35 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivers side Intercooler

You don't have to completely remove the oil cooler, just disconnect it's
mountings and you can untangle the intercooler from the oil cooler hoses if
the intercooler hoses are removed.

I have some digital pictures of my intercooler refurb.  You want them?

Chuck Willis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: menalteed [SMTP:menalteed@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 12:55 PM
> To: Willis, Charles E.
> Cc: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivers side Intercooler
>
> Yes I will take my bumper off and take my intercoolers
> out for proper cleaning, my new turbos are back in and
> I would hate to not do a proper job. My service manual
> calls for the removel of the oil cooler to get the
> intercooler out on the drivers side. The question is,
> is this true, it looks like it should be in front of
> the oil cooler, in anycase I'm ordering clips for the
> front panels but would like to know if I need to take
> out the oil cooler then I should order some crush
> washers at the same time. If anyone who has removed
> the incooler without removing the oil cooler I would
> like to hear from you on how to do it.
>
> Peter 1992 Stealth RT TT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:18:02 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: Water Injection Tuning (long)

So now that I have a working WI system, I have to tune it :-)

Questions at the very bottom, so if you want the quick-read, skip to there.

[If you know about the Aquamist 2s, then skip this part]
I have a 3D-mapping system (Aquamist 2s), so I can set the water flow rate
to be a function of the engine RPM and the boost pressure.  I can control
the flow rate by adjusting potentiometers from 0<->100% at 1000RPM intervals
and there is a "gain" setting for the boost input.  If you haven't looked at
the 2s system, you basically set up a curve for flow vs. RPM with the
potentiometers and then that curve gets multiplied by the [boost-related]
gain setting to get the final water flow rate.  And there's a minimum boost
threshold setting, too, so there's no flow below that.

Having read the Aquamist web pages (www.aquamist.co.uk) and their pretty
lengthy FAQs, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the general
principles, but I'm looking for others' comments and/or 3/S specific
tips/suggestions.

My Car:
* '95 VR-4, BPU engine mods, stock turbos/fuel
* Road courses a couple times a year
* AutoX 10 times a year
* Road trips and nice-weather driving
* Boost currently set at 0.8bar to 1.0bar on the street
* Would like to run 1.0bar on the track without worries

Goals of (my) WI System:
* Low Speed, High Underhood Temp Intercooling
* Higher RPM Intercooling
* Detonation Prevention/Control at higher than stock boost

WI Specifics:
* 1gal water tank, (water only for now)
* 0.8mm nozzle rated at 330cc/min at 100% duty cycle
* 3-bar MAP sensor for measuring boost
* Injector nozzle in y-pipe right before throttle body
* Boost threshold for WI engagement: 0.55bar (8psi)
* Boost gain set at 50% (factory setting)

WI Engagement Point:
I chose the 0.55bar engagement point for the WI because this is slightly
below the boost my car currently holds to redline (I don't want it to stop
injecting unconditionally at high RPMs).  I assume I want this trigger point
as high as possible to conserve water and not cool off the cylinders too
much. 

WI vs. RPM Curve:
The ERL MF2 controller smoothes out (interpolates) the curve you enter on
the potentiometers with 1000RPM granularity.  My initial curve is similar to
the one in the MF2 documentation, but shifted lower since my car doesn't rev
to 9000RPM - unless I get 2nd instead of 4th :-)  My curve:

RPM:     Potentiometer Setting (%)
2000 25
3000 50
4000 60
5000 60
6000 50
7000 45
8000 45
9000 45 (remember, the MF2 interpolates)

Current Results:
No stumbling or apparent spark blow-out, no noticeable power loss due to
over-cooling, and no significant power gains (butt-dyno).  I'll do some runs
with the Road Dyno when I get the chance so I can actually see any
variations in the torque/hp curves.

Questions:
1) Comments on my choice of activation point for the
WI? (0.55bar/8psi)
2) Comments on my current choice of RPM/flow curve?
3) What should I expect to feel (while driving) or
see (on dyno graphs) if I inject too much water?
4) I've heard that the way to tune WI is to increase
the flow rate until you get some power loss or
stumbling and then back it off a little? Sound right?

TIA for any comments/suggestions, and I'll keep everyone posted as I have
time to fine-tune the WI system.

- --Erik
'95 VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 13:03:39 -0700
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss

Well put.
For those of you who NEED to know what the drivetrain loss is, plan on
removing your engine and putting it on an engine dyno, then putting it back
in the car and chassis dyno it. Make sure the exact same operating
parameters are present at each dyno pull (yea right)

Simply coasting down on a chassis dyno does not give you an accurate result
because drivetrain friction is different when coasting and accelerating.

If chassis dynos were meant to give engine HP, they would be engine dynos.

W

At 10:21 AM 3/4/02 -0800, Geoff Mohler wrote:
>No offense to anyone..but the HP loss is..well, _really_ unimportant.
>
>This isnt targetted at Roger or anyone else..but to argue drivetrain loss
>makes me think that you want to use crank #s to use as a tool to
>benchrace with someone else.
>
>The only number that matters, is whats on the ground.
>
>On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Roger Gerl wrote:
>
> > Numbers can be found on the dyno curves on my 3000GT pages. No theory as we
> > measure drivetrrain loss and not are guessing.
> >
> > You can search for the discussion in the archive.
> >
> > Roger
> > 93'3000GT TT
> > www.rtec.ch

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:20:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Joe Barchesky <gd1996@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: woohoo found my stealth...

Well finally I sold the ta and I am buying a maroon 91
Stealth rt tt, the car looks pretty good, trans has 8k
since the rebuild.  It has enki rp01s on it, 17",
which I may sell if anyones interested.  It does have
118k, but thats not too bad, paint looks perfect,
interior looks really nice, should make me a great
car.  I got a deposit on it and will pick it up on the
18th.  Which I;m sure I will have a lot of questions.

Joe B
95 Trans Am sold buying 91 rt tt
89 Shelby Daytona T2
69 ROad Runner
68 Sport Satellite

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 15:30:23 -0600
From: "Mark Wendlandt" <stealth_tt@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivers side Intercooler

Peter,

You do not have to remove the front bumper.  I wouldn't if I were you. 
Everything comes out from the drivers side wheel well.  Remove inner fender
and air dam under the bumper(lots of 10mm screws).

I took both out to clean and straighten fins without removing front bumper!

Just start riping into it and it will be obvious what to remove when you get
in there.

Mark Wendlandt
'91RT/TT

>From: menalteed <menalteed@yahoo.com>
>To: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>CC: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
>Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivers side Intercooler
>Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:54:59 -0800 (PST)
>
>Yes I will take my bumper off and take my intercoolers
>out for proper cleaning, my new turbos are back in and
>I would hate to not do a proper job. My service manual
>calls for the removel of the oil cooler to get the
>intercooler out on the drivers side. The question is,
>is this true, it looks like it should be in front of
>the oil cooler, in anycase I'm ordering clips for the
>front panels but would like to know if I need to take
>out the oil cooler then I should order some crush
>washers at the same time. If anyone who has removed
>the incooler without removing the oil cooler I would
>like to hear from you on how to do it.
>
>Peter 1992 Stealth RT TT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:42:54 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rollbar/Harnesses

> Erik and Russell ... thanks for the feedback.  Consider the
> write-up on the list.

Thanks Darren - looking forward to your writeup. 

> > I have an idea of what I'm leaning toward (4pt,
> > like Flash's autopower one),but that's by no
> > means written in stone...
>
> And the phrase is "set in stone" and "cast in concrete." 
> Not sure what you would write in stone ... chisel maybe?

For an obvious example, how about the Ten Commandments?

Definition:
http://home.t-online.de/home/toni.goeller/idiom_wm/idioms652.html
Idiom: written in stone
Meaning: written in final form, like a commandment
Example: Our agreement isn't written in stone; it can be changed.

Something to which you should be able to relate:
(title of an article on javaworld)
http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/javaqa/2000-06/01-qa-0602-immutable.html
Java's primitive wrappers are written in stone
You can't alter an immutable object!

- --Erik

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:56:09 -0800
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivers side Intercooler

Fair warning.....those little plastic screw  washer things with the
phillips head on them....some times squeezing the back of them so the
old worn-out screw will grab and back out. don't just rip them off
with pliers...good news is they are only about 1.50 each and there is
about 8 total of them...I think even Napa sells them in their junk
drawers with all the other stuff we never need.

good luck...I know mine were a PITA....
bobk.

- ---- Original Message ----
From: stealth_tt@hotmail.com
To: menalteed@yahoo.com, cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org
Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivers side Intercooler
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 15:30:23 -0600

>Peter,
>
>You do not have to remove the front bumper.  I wouldn't if I were
>you. 
>Everything comes out from the drivers side wheel well.  Remove inner
>fender
>and air dam under the bumper(lots of 10mm screws).
>
>I took both out to clean and straighten fins without removing front
>bumper!
>
>Just start riping into it and it will be obvious what to remove when
>you get
>in there.
>
>Mark Wendlandt
>'91RT/TT
>
>>From: menalteed <menalteed@yahoo.com>
>>To: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>>CC: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
>>Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivers side Intercooler
>>Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:54:59 -0800 (PST)
>>
>>Yes I will take my bumper off and take my intercoolers
>>out for proper cleaning, my new turbos are back in and
>>I would hate to not do a proper job. My service manual
>>calls for the removel of the oil cooler to get the
>>intercooler out on the drivers side. The question is,
>>is this true, it looks like it should be in front of
>>the oil cooler, in anycase I'm ordering clips for the
>>front panels but would like to know if I need to take
>>out the oil cooler then I should order some crush
>>washers at the same time. If anyone who has removed
>>the incooler without removing the oil cooler I would
>>like to hear from you on how to do it.
>>
>>Peter 1992 Stealth RT TT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 22:54:19 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection Tuning (long)

> to be a function of the engine RPM and the boost pressure.

Or TPS input !

> * Boost currently set at 0.8bar to 1.0bar on the street
> * Would like to run 1.0bar on the track without worries

Very conserative :-)

> * Low Speed, High Underhood Temp Intercooling
> * Higher RPM Intercooling
> * Detonation Prevention/Control at higher than stock boost
>
> * Injector nozzle in y-pipe right before throttle body

Too close for any intercooling purposes therefore it is only used to control
detonation.

> Current Results:
> No stumbling or apparent spark blow-out, no noticeable power loss due to
> over-cooling, and no significant power gains (butt-dyno).

You will see no gain at all.

> Questions:
> 1) Comments on my choice of activation point for the
> WI? (0.55bar/8psi)

0.8 bars is well enough

> 2) Comments on my current choice of RPM/flow curve?

Start to spray around 3500

> 3) What should I expect to feel (while driving) or
> see (on dyno graphs) if I inject too much water?

Too much water causes spark blowout and hesitation.

> 4) I've heard that the way to tune WI is to increase
> the flow rate until you get some power loss or
> stumbling and then back it off a little? Sound right?

Tune it to avoid knock or high EGT

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 14:25:07 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@mvplabels.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Top 20

> I know there is a lot of talk about the top 2 or 3 fastest stealths and
3kgts but is there a list anywhere (maybe Dave B. or Jeff L's websites)
which contains the top 10 or 20 cars and owners times? This would be a neat
resource as we could all strive to make the list and advance towards the #1
position! We could have times approved by the admins perhaps and every time
must be backed up by an slip.
> Food for thought,
> Tom
> 92 VR4
> TNT3KGT
- ------------------------------------------>

"Food for thought", eh?  Perhaps you're eating at the wrong "diner".  :-)

The most accurate "Fastest Stealth & 3000GT" page has always been the one
that's already on our Team3S website.  It is updated whenever we get new
timeslips, and has more entries than any other website.  We take timeslips
from members *and* non-members, (unlike some other websites), and we *do
not* allow G-Tech times - only times that are backed up with a timeslip.
The www.Mn3S.org site may be a bit slow, but at least it is updated on a
regular basis, and Curt works hard to keep it accurate.  The www.3Si.org
site appears to allow G-tech times, but you'd have to ask them about it.
Their page looks broken today - it only has about 15 entries (we have 85 on
www.Team3S.com ).

Since we don't carry advertising (nor track visitors for advertiser's sucker
lists), Team3S is also the *fastest loading* site.  (For everything).

www.Team3S.com/FAQ-fastest.htm

Check it out!

Best,

Forrest

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: 04 Mar 2002 18:14:01 -0600
From: Jon Bohlke <bohlke_mobile@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Top 20

http://www.dragtimes.com is nice, I like the car info that comes along
with the 1/4 times.

Jon
98 Pearl White VR-4
http://3000gt.websnout.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 14:59:36 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ;-)

according to your origional description of that method, what your have
is a coast down measurement --- push in the clutch and measure the
loss. The actual numbers are going to require losses under maximum
load how would they do that.

        Jim Berry
======================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: <team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ;-)

> Numbers can be found on the dyno curves on my 3000GT pages. No theory as we
> measure drivetrrain loss and not are guessing.
>
> You can search for the discussion in the archive.
>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT
> www.rtec.ch
>
> > Hey, Roger, let's discuss this.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 00:59:33 +0200
From: "Oleg" <Oleg@3000gt.lv>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Japan and Euro CAPS needed

This is a multipart message in MIME format.

I have both. What do you need?

Oleg
www.3000gt.lv

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:11:16 -0800
From: Michael Gerhard <gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

I have a '91 VR4 and in Dec/Jan I replaced the front rotors with
Porterfield rotors from Geoff at Speedtoys.com. I also put on Porterfield
R4S front pads and replace all the brake lines with SS lines (also from
Goeff, built by Porterfield). My new brake fluid is ATE Super Blue Racing.

I'm thinking ahead 8 to 12 months and considering adding Big Red calipers
as well.

Thus, I have a few questions.

(1) I'm wondering if the new rotors I have are compatible with the big reds
or do I need a different rotor. I got the Porterfield rotors with cryo
treatment. Reading the Team3S FAQ it looks like there are options to have
single piece rotors and 2 piece rotors.

(2) I'm curious as to whether the Big Reds fit with stock VR4 17" wheels. A
friend with a Stealth had to go to 18" wheels for the clearance. I'm
thinking that there may be a wheel difference between the Stealth and
3000GT VR4 and that the stock 17" VR4 wheels might work with the big reds.

I'm wondering if there are any comments on the need for wheel upgrades. I'm
about ready to get new tires and if I may need to upgrade wheels I'm
thinking that it may be a good idea to upsize the wheels before getting new
tires.

Thanks for any info you can provide toward me doing a future brake upgrade.

- -------------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Gerhard     1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4  Pearl White

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:16:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

> (1) I'm wondering if the new rotors I have are compatible with the big reds
> or do I need a different rotor. I got the Porterfield rotors with cryo
> treatment. Reading the Team3S FAQ it looks like there are options to have
> single piece rotors and 2 piece rotors.
- ---
Easy, 2nd gen OEM hardware works great with the BR kit.
 
> (2) I'm curious as to whether the Big Reds fit with stock VR4 17" wheels. A
> friend with a Stealth had to go to 18" wheels for the clearance. I'm
> thinking that there may be a wheel difference between the Stealth and
> 3000GT VR4 and that the stock 17" VR4 wheels might work with the big reds.
- ---
I can never remember on this one..

> I'm wondering if there are any comments on the need for wheel upgrades. I'm
> about ready to get new tires and if I may need to upgrade wheels I'm
> thinking that it may be a good idea to upsize the wheels before getting new
> tires.
- ---
If you race, you need strength.  More spokes = better.

You'll find a lot of the thin/5spoke users bend rims a lot.

Bob here has been chewing up wheels on a regular basis.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:22:02 -0800
From: Michael Gerhard <gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

At 04:16 PM 3/4/02 , you wrote:
> > (1) I'm wondering if the new rotors I have are compatible with the big
> reds
> > or do I need a different rotor. I got the Porterfield rotors with cryo
> > treatment. Reading the Team3S FAQ it looks like there are options to have
> > single piece rotors and 2 piece rotors.
>---
>Easy, 2nd gen OEM hardware works great with the BR kit.

I have a '91, thus 1st gen. I'm curious as to how different the 1st gen and
2 gen rotors are.

- --------------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Gerhard     1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4  Pearl White

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:27:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

Well, I dont think the kit will bolt to a 1st gen car at all..so youre
lookin at a spindle upgrade for the BR kit.

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Michael Gerhard wrote:

> At 04:16 PM 3/4/02 , you wrote:
> > > (1) I'm wondering if the new rotors I have are compatible with the big
> > reds
> > > or do I need a different rotor. I got the Porterfield rotors with cryo
> > > treatment. Reading the Team3S FAQ it looks like there are options to have
> > > single piece rotors and 2 piece rotors.
> >---
> >Easy, 2nd gen OEM hardware works great with the BR kit.
>
> I have a '91, thus 1st gen. I'm curious as to how different the 1st gen and
> 2 gen rotors are.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Michael A. Gerhard     1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4  Pearl White

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 18:11:38 -0500
From: "bdtrent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Y-pipe Retainer

Dustin,

IMHO the GTPro y-pipe is not only overpriced, I question why you would want
an aluminum y-pipe.  I cant think of a more effective way to sink engine bay
heat into your intake any faster.  The DNPerformance piece is made of
stainless (low thermal conductivity) and is almost half the price.

Regards,
DaveT/92TT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Dustin Lenz" <dustin_lenz@hotmail.com>
To: <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Y-pipe Retainer

I'm interested in NOT spending $350 for a piece of pipe!

>From: "bdtrent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
>To: "Team 3S" <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
>Subject: Team3S: Y-pipe Retainer
>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:10:40 -0500
>
>All,
>
>I have recently been contacted about making a y-pipe retainer I've been
>using for the last 2 yrs. available.  This design is simply a yoke that
>holds the stock y-pipe in place for those of us who don't wish to buy an
>aftermarket y-pipe.  Mine has functioned at 18psi without fault.  The yoke
>could easily be milled out on a production CNC.  Like all things of this
>nature, the price is heavily dependent on quantity.  If you would like more
>info or pics, please email me.
>
>Regards,
>DaveT/92TT
>bdtrent@netzero.net

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:31:22 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

> (2) I'm curious as to whether the Big Reds fit with stock VR4
> 17" wheels. A  friend with a Stealth had to go to 18" wheels
> for the clearance. I'm  thinking that there may be a wheel
> difference between the Stealth and  3000GT VR4 and that the
> stock 17" VR4 wheels might work with the big reds.

I believe Steve Lasher is experienced in this area with his ('92?)
VR-4.  IIRC, he said that the Big Reds will not fit with 1st generation 17"
VR-4 wheels.  Steve, you out there? 
I know first-hand that 1g wheels will not fit with 2g brakes, and
the Big Reds are of similar dimensions.

- --Erik

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:31:20 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>

> > I'm wondering if there are any comments on the need for wheel upgrades

> If you race, you need strength.  More spokes = better.
>
> You'll find a lot of the thin/5spoke users bend rims a lot.
>
> Bob here has been chewing up wheels on a regular basis.

If he'd keep his damn car on the road it'd be a little easier on the wheels.
He, and occasionally his SO, go gopher hunting when they get bored with
the track layout.

I've been running those puny looking Enkie RP01's with no problems --- when
I got them I was a little concerned about their durability. They are cast, 5 spoke
rims but they have held up well to my abuse --- only one 360 and one 90 but
never in the dirt [ well maybe a two off now and then ]. Geoff doesn't count two
off as an off track excersion, he thinks that's just using all the track.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:34:24 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

The reds will bolt on fine but you need the larger rotors and the 2nd gen
wheels [ at least for the Stealth ]. I'm not sure about the 1st gen VR4 wheels
although I think they won't fit either --- maybe --- kinda

        Jim Berry
==========================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: "Michael Gerhard" <gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Cc: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

> Well, I dont think the kit will bolt to a 1st gen car at all..so youre
> lookin at a spindle upgrade for the BR kit.
>
> On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Michael Gerhard wrote:
>
> > At 04:16 PM 3/4/02 , you wrote:
> > > > (1) I'm wondering if the new rotors I have are compatible with the big
> > > reds
> > > > or do I need a different rotor. I got the Porterfield rotors with cryo
> > > > treatment. Reading the Team3S FAQ it looks like there are options to have
> > > > single piece rotors and 2 piece rotors.
> > >---
> > >Easy, 2nd gen OEM hardware works great with the BR kit.
> >
> > I have a '91, thus 1st gen. I'm curious as to how different the 1st gen and
> > 2 gen rotors are.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > Michael A. Gerhard     1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4  Pearl White
>
> Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:53:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

> > You'll find a lot of the thin/5spoke users bend rims a lot.
> >
> > Bob here has been chewing up wheels on a regular basis.
>
>
> If he'd keep his damn car on the road it'd be a little easier on the wheels.
> He, and occasionally his SO, go gopher hunting when they get bored with
> the track layout.
- ---
Shit happens, you can be prepared or not.  Your choice.  I dont belive
anyone goes off track on purpose.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:59:53 -0500
From: "bdtrent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

I just did this upgrade last fall.  You can leave the spindles alone
although 1st gen wheels will not work and 1st gen rotors will not work.  You
can use your new brake lines, but will require changing your caliper
fittings.  This is easier than I thought it would be once you get the
hardware you will need from Goodridge.  The 17in RP01 wheels are a great
light weight, tight budget choice or better yet, check out the SSR 18in.
wheels on Jeff Lucius' site. Once you have the wheels the budget Big Red
upgrade requires a right and left Porsche 993 caliper available through any
discount Porsche parts dealer.  A set of 2nd gen rotors, (3/4in. dia. larger
then 1st gen. with the cooling vanes facing the outside of the wheel where
they belong).  A set of caliper adapter brackets, (this is the trickiest
part, I can send you the dimensioned print, or Brad Bidell may have some for
sale) that I fabbed from aluminum stock.  If your not inclined to have the
brackets fabbed, I would look into getting the whole kit from Brad B.

Regards,
DaveT/92TT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: "Michael Gerhard" <gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Cc: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

Well, I dont think the kit will bolt to a 1st gen car at all..so youre
lookin at a spindle upgrade for the BR kit.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:13:49 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

The point was , he seems to feel that the damage was a result of off road
excursions, not necessarily because of poor design.

        Jim Berry

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>

> > If he'd keep his damn car on the road it'd be a little easier on the wheels.
> > He, and occasionally his SO, go gopher hunting when they get bored with
> > the track layout.
> ---
> Shit happens, you can be prepared or not.  Your choice.  I dont belive
> anyone goes off track on purpose.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:21:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

Hes wrong.

His wheels are pretty, but -not- built for strength.

He has a LOT of real estate between wispy thin spokes..its just much more
likely to get bent.

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, fastmax wrote:

> The point was , he seems to feel that the damage was a result of off road
> excursions, not necessarily because of poor design.
>
>         Jim Berry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> To: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
>
> > > If he'd keep his damn car on the road it'd be a little easier on the wheels.
> > > He, and occasionally his SO, go gopher hunting when they get bored with
> > > the track layout.
> > ---
> > Shit happens, you can be prepared or not.  Your choice.  I dont belive
> > anyone goes off track on purpose.

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:19:04 -0700
From: "Moe Prasad" <mprasad01@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Y-pipe Retainer

DaveT/92TT,

I am very interested in anything that will hold my Y-Pipe in place.  I blow
my Y-pipe of at 13.5 psi.  Let me know the price and when it might be
available.

Rgds
Moe
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "bdtrent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
To: "Team 3S" <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Y-pipe Retainer

> Dustin,
>
> IMHO the GTPro y-pipe is not only overpriced, I question why you would
want
> an aluminum y-pipe.  I cant think of a more effective way to sink engine
bay
> heat into your intake any faster.  The DNPerformance piece is made of
> stainless (low thermal conductivity) and is almost half the price.
>
> Regards,
> DaveT/92TT
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dustin Lenz" <dustin_lenz@hotmail.com>
> To: <bdtrent@netzero.net>
> Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 9:56 AM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Y-pipe Retainer
>
> I'm interested in NOT spending $350 for a piece of pipe!
>
> >From: "bdtrent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
> >To: "Team 3S" <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
> >Subject: Team3S: Y-pipe Retainer
> >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:10:40 -0500
> >
> >All,
> >
> >I have recently been contacted about making a y-pipe retainer I've been
> >using for the last 2 yrs. available.  This design is simply a yoke that
> >holds the stock y-pipe in place for those of us who don't wish to buy an
> >aftermarket y-pipe.  Mine has functioned at 18psi without fault.  The
yoke
> >could easily be milled out on a production CNC.  Like all things of this
> >nature, the price is heavily dependent on quantity.  If you would like
more
> >info or pics, please email me.
> >
> >Regards,
> >DaveT/92TT
> >bdtrent@netzero.net

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:24:16 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

So do the RP01's that's why I was a little concerned about their strength.
As I mentionend they are cast, which is the least desirable in terms of
strength and they are light, 19 or 20 #, and cheap $190. All in All I've
been impressed with the wheels --- I don't have street tires on them so
I inspect them before each event just in case.

        Jim Berry
============================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>

> Hes wrong.
>
> His wheels are pretty, but -not- built for strength.
>
> He has a LOT of real estate between wispy thin spokes..its just much more
> likely to get bent.
>
> On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, fastmax wrote:
>
> > The point was , he seems to feel that the damage was a result of off road
> > excursions, not necessarily because of poor design.
> >
> >         Jim Berry
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> > To: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
> >
> > > > If he'd keep his damn car on the road it'd be a little easier on the wheels.
> > > > He, and occasionally his SO, go gopher hunting when they get bored with
> > > > the track layout.
> > > ---
> > > Shit happens, you can be prepared or not.  Your choice.  I dont belive
> > > anyone goes off track on purpose.
>
> Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:32:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

Well..im just saying..

Wheels meant for high stress are usually built in such a way..that they
can take that type of abuse.  If your vendor think they'd be cool at 80mph
going offroad..go for it.

Youre never fully in control on a racetrack...the sooner you stop thinking
you are, the sooner you'll see where im trying to go with this.  Not
calling you wrong, just I dont think you give Bob/ET the credit that
anyone who's learning deserves..they keep coming back for more!  :^)

Whos gonna make it to March 16/17th?

The FULL sears point configuration WITH the Nascar loop instead of the
normal turn 4, 5, 6, and straightaway.

Id betcha you'll never get to run that -very- fast configuration ever
again in your life.

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, fastmax wrote:

> So do the RP01's that's why I was a little concerned about their strength.
> As I mentionend they are cast, which is the least desirable in terms of
> strength and they are light, 19 or 20 #, and cheap $190. All in All I've
> been impressed with the wheels --- I don't have street tires on them so
> I inspect them before each event just in case.
>
>         Jim Berry
> ============================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> To: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
>
>
> > Hes wrong.
> >
> > His wheels are pretty, but -not- built for strength.
> >
> > He has a LOT of real estate between wispy thin spokes..its just much more
> > likely to get bent.
> >
> > On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, fastmax wrote:
> >
> > > The point was , he seems to feel that the damage was a result of off road
> > > excursions, not necessarily because of poor design.
> > >
> > >         Jim Berry
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> > > To: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
> > >
> > > > > If he'd keep his damn car on the road it'd be a little easier on the wheels.
> > > > > He, and occasionally his SO, go gopher hunting when they get bored with
> > > > > the track layout.
> > > > ---
> > > > Shit happens, you can be prepared or not.  Your choice.  I dont belive
> > > > anyone goes off track on purpose.
> >
> > Geoff Mohler

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 21:31:02 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

Geoff said:
>Youre never fully in control on a racetrack...

The great Parnelli Jones once said that if you are not out of control, you aren't going fast enough. We used to watch him bash a TransAm car around in the 1970s, caroming off Mark Dohohue and George Folmer. Of course, those were the days when race cars were CARS, not carbon fiber replicas.

Sigh. Nostalgia just isn't what it used to be.

Rich/slow old poop

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:42:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

Yes..back in the bad old days where the cars were 1/2 the speed and 5x as
deadly.

Ya..the good ol days.

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, merritt@cedar-rapids.net wrote:

>
> Geoff said:
> >Youre never fully in control on a racetrack...
>
> The great Parnelli Jones once said that if you are not out of control, you aren't going fast enough. We used to watch him bash a TransAm car around in the 1970s, caroming off Mark Dohohue and George Folmer. Of course, those were the days when race cars were CARS, not carbon fiber replicas.
>
> Sigh. Nostalgia just isn't what it used to be.
>
> Rich/slow old poop

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:12:44 -0800 (PST)
From: John Christian <jczoom_619@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades

Hi Mike, 

Yah, your rotors will work, but you'll need a custom
bracket.  Don't waste your time & $$$ fitting to the
tiny 295mm 1st gen rotor.

Consider this:

The Big Reds were designed to be used with the Porsche
993 rotors which are  two pieced, 32mm thick, 322mm
dia, directionally cooled with curved veins, and have
cored cast holes.

Most of the 3Sers that have Big Reds just slapped them
over the 2nd gen rotors.  If the stock rotor wasn't
capable of dissapating enough heat to keep the stock
pads at a workable temperature, why should putting
more pad on the same rotor surface change heat
dissapation?  That setup doesn't even take advantage
of the whole pad surface.  And some of them complain
about overheating etc.

Let's assume the Big red pad is square at 127x60= 7620
If it overhangs (non contact) by 6 then you loose 11%
of your braking surface.

BTW the stock 1st & 2nd gen pads are 115x51=5865.

I customized the Supra rotors to fit my TT.  The Supra
rotors are only 30mm (like the stock 2nd gen), but
they are directionally cooled and are larger
diameter(322mm vs stock 313mm) and allow the whole
Porsche pad to contact the rotor surface. 

Now if you can customize a thicker (32mm) rotor, like
the Porsche rotor, to fit the TT, I think you'll have
a fantastic braking system.

I also have 91 track car with the AP 6 piston setup
that I haven't driven yet )-:).   I think the AP pads
are longer, but not as high.  They are 150x51=7650
that's not much different from the Porsche pad.  The
HUGE difference is the size of the AP rotor.  It's
35mm THICK and about 330mm DIAMETER and directionally
cooled.  I'll bet $$$ that if you put that rotor with
the Big Red, there won't be many complaints.

BTW the Porsche 996Turbo rotor is 34x330 and would be
more readily available than the custom AP.

And yes, the Big Reds are more streetable than the AP.
 And yes the Big red pads are more affordable &
readily available in an abundant selection of
compositions than either our stock or AP.  Porsche
dealers are everywhere in case you need a rebuild.

The stock 993 pads are only about $85 per set (that's
4pads).  Good track pads are about double that.

I've been looking for a used 996 or 993 rotor to use
to protype to convert to my Stealth, but no luck so
far--I guess the Porsche rotors just don't wear out.
(-;)

Be of good cheer,
John

- --- Michael Gerhard <gerhard1@llnl.gov> wrote:
> I have a '91 VR4 and in Dec/Jan I replaced the front
> rotors with
> Porterfield rotors from Geoff at Speedtoys.com. I
> also put on Porterfield
> R4S front pads and replace all the brake lines with
> SS lines (also from
> Goeff, built by Porterfield). My new brake fluid is
> ATE Super Blue Racing.
>
> I'm thinking ahead 8 to 12 months and considering
> adding Big Red calipers
> as well.
>
> Thus, I have a few questions.
>
> (1) I'm wondering if the new rotors I have are
> compatible with the big reds
> or do I need a different rotor. I got the
> Porterfield rotors with cryo
> treatment. Reading the Team3S FAQ it looks like
> there are options to have
> single piece rotors and 2 piece rotors.
>
> (2) I'm curious as to whether the Big Reds fit with
> stock VR4 17" wheels. A
> friend with a Stealth had to go to 18" wheels for
> the clearance. I'm
> thinking that there may be a wheel difference
> between the Stealth and
> 3000GT VR4 and that the stock 17" VR4 wheels might
> work with the big reds.
>
> I'm wondering if there are any comments on the need
> for wheel upgrades. I'm
> about ready to get new tires and if I may need to
> upgrade wheels I'm
> thinking that it may be a good idea to upsize the
> wheels before getting new
> tires.
>
> Thanks for any info you can provide toward me doing
> a future brake upgrade.
>
> Michael A. Gerhard     1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4
> Pearl White

=====
Please respond to jczoom@iname.com
'93 TT with Porsche brakes and Supra TT rotors
12.4@109MPH  5/97 almost stock
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:21:31 -0500
From: "Dennis and Anita Moore" <stealth@quixnet.net>
Subject: Team3S: Clutch Master Cylinder Question

If my master cylinder has gone south on me, do I need to replace the whole
thing, or is there a seal kit I can use?  The pictures in my service manual
make it look like it's a serviceable assembly, but I'm not sure.  Thanks.

Dennis Moore
93 Stealth ES

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:20:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: If you are this person..

ip68-10-58-161.rn.hr.cox.net (68.10.58.161)

Its people like -you- which keep me wondering if I can allow team3s to
host the CAPS software.

RTFM on the download page..please.

If you want your ISP unblocked from the server, Email me personally.

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:18:01 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Dented wheels (was: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades)

From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
> > > If he'd keep his damn car on the road it'd be a little easier on the
wheels. He, and occasionally his SO, go gopher hunting when they get bored
with the track layout.
> From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> > Shit happens, you can be prepared or not.  Your choice.  I dont believe
anyone goes off track on purpose.
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
> The point was , he seems to feel that the damage was a result of off road
excursions, not necessarily because of poor design.
>         Jim Berry
- ----------------------------------------

Heh, heh...  It isn't "poor design", it's a "known weakness of the design",
IMO.  Just to clarify..., our Gewalt wheels lasted through 4 mild off-road
incidents, and 16 track weekends (and a couple of HPDE's that Geoff & Nissa
ran, before they sold them to us).  They never had a problem.  But what "did
them in" happened on the highway, not on the track.  A highway surface was
not patched sufficiently when going up a (roughly) 3" rise from a low
surface to a higher one.  The patch was only about 6" long , instead of
being properly tapered for a couple of feet; what we hit looked like this
___-----  and we hit it at 80 instead of the 40 mph posted.  Road hazards
are way more dangerous than the average runs on the track..., assuming that
you stay ON the track!  :-)

Was it the 5-spoke design?  Was it the fact of the low profile (265/35Z18)?
Or was it the shock of hitting (the equivalent of) a 3" curb at 80mph?  I
think it was the "curb", which probably would have dented most wheels, but
especially those with light spokes and with only about 3.5" of air/rubber
between the rim and the road.

The replacement wheels are also 18", and not quite as low profile,
245/40ZR18 SSR GT-1's.  They are made using the strongest forging process,
but are also the same, open 5-spoke design.  Ann Koch has been using hers in
open track HPDE's for close to a year without incident, in an heavier,
faster car than ours.  Yet we managed to dent at least one of them in a
single track day at Laguna Seca.  I had one 270 spin at 60mph, and ET went
into the gravel at about 40 mph - that's all it took.

Like Geoff said, low-profile 18's are pretty, but they are probably not the
right choice at the track or even on rough roads, for that matter.  These
are expensive lessons for us, but when you race, it's to be expected that
you'll stress components more than normal...
While we're honing our driving skills, we *do* run our car to the max -
always at redline and always slightly out of control...  And even an
experienced driver like Geoff has managed to dent forged racing wheels at
the track because of running flat out at the edge of safety.  That's just
how the game is played.

Best,

Forrest

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:32:51 -0700
From: "Mike & Cathy" <micajoco@theofficenet.com>
Subject: Team3S: 5 speed

Will a 5-speed from a non turbo car be the same as a tt awd ?

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #772
***************************************