Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth   Tuesday, October 23 2001   Volume 01 : Number 653




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:21:26 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: Left foot braking

You missed my question:
How do you left foot brake and downshift at the same time?

Rich

> I wonder
>how
>Flash manages to brake and clutch with his left foot.
>Let's see, the heel of his left foot is on the brake, and he depresses
>the
>clutch with the toe...or is it the other way around? Maybe he doesn't
>use
>the clutch at all to downshift?
>
>I give up. Flash, how DO you downshift when you are hard on the brakes
>with
>your left foot?

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:32:30 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

Thanks god I have the cover everything warranty so when I do break the
car I can chalk it up to a bad part.

Don't wreck the Spyder.  They are too nice.  Agree on all else.

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 11:13
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

> I sit corrected.  You have a highly-modded car.  Just try it
> in a stock engine/suspension car on a road track or maybe we
> can meet halfway (Chicago?) and run some tests.

Nah, my car is too rare to toss it off a corner at 140 MPH - which I'm
sure
I'd manage to accomplish before the day was over.  They won't let me
roadrace up here in it anyway since I don't have a solid roof or a
rollcage
(and I'm not installing one since I'd rarely race it anyways).  I'm
already
illegal for drag racing as well, but they haven't stopped me yet (I
don't
think those guys realize the car is a convertible).

If LF-braking works for you then that's cool...  There are downsides to
it
though (hard on motor, hard on clutch, hard on tranny, and more
obviously
(as you are well aware) hard on brakes).  But hey, any racing is harder
on a
car than driving on the street.  :-)

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:37:20 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

Yup.  That's why I wanted the Wilwood brake recirculation setup Geoff
was talking so much about.  The fluid is coming out clear so it is still
good it just needs recirculated.

And I am only over-driving the brakes because that is the only thing
left I can do with a mostly-stock car right now.  I went TO the Big Reds
thinking they would handle track events.  They do but they are
definitely not serious brakes by any means.  They do take quite a lot of
abuse.

I read the "Going Faster" book and learned a ton from it.  What I did
have a good laugh at though was the Chapter on All-Wheel Drive cars.
Here is their entire chapter (one sentence) in summary, "We will not go
into detail on how to drive an all-wheel drive car in this book simply
because the techniques employed are too difficult to teach and nobody
uses them anyway."  I paraphrase but that was their mentality.  Luckily
our cars act like FWD most of the time until modded then they lean
toward RWD things.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Berry [mailto:fastmax@home.com]
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 11:18

It's simple --- you're overdriving your brakes --- In the book Going
Faster one
of the showroom stock guys explained his mindset --- he drives with
about
50% of the brake capacity, if he doesn't, he gets to go home early. He
trail
brakes to get his speed down as much as possible using limited braking
and
accelerates later so he can maintain more speed before the apex --- he
keeps
it at the limits of traction at all times before the apex rather than
accelerating
to the apex.

Left foot braking is fine for AutoX because of the limited track time
but you
better plan on having a $5000 setup for our 4000# car in a road track
situation [ you need --- 6 pot AP's, water,blowers and brake fluid
recirculation ]
Brake management is just as important as traction management ---- if it
were a race it doesn't do any good to go faster than hell for three laps
and
then take two laps off too cool your brakes.

>
> Heartland Park (where it was hot and might have helped matters) I had
> good brakes the first two or three sessions.  By the fourth I had
fading
> brakes (pedal would hit the floor but I was not slowing down

That's a fluid issue and there is no rotor or pad combination that will
cure
that problem. Water, forced air, fluid recirculation on the caliper or a

modified driving style is required --- see above.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:25:59 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

Flash,

I don't disagree that left foot braking is a good trick for keeping the rpms
up while slowing down enough to turn in - I just don't believe it is
necessary or helpful for every turn.  I think you are just grinding the pads
down most places on the track.

Another thing, just because somebody (me) is an instructor doesn't mean they
are fast, or driving up to the car's potential - it means they can get
around the track safely and have some ability (or training) to communicate
that skill to a student.

Remember - my son was 2 seconds faster per lap at Heartland Park, he hadn't
been on a track in a year, and he wasn't doing any left foot braking.

My best friend (an Advanced Instructor) and I did a "follow-the-leader" last
weekend at TWS.  He had a NA Porsche 911.  The only places he could gain on
me were places that required hard braking - I had to slow down more to get
my heavier car rotated safely than he did.  Then he would loose ground on
exits because of my horsepower advantage.  He has driven my car and thinks
it is very difficult to drive on the track.  He has ridden with me many
times, and believes I am doing what is necessary because of my car's
characteristics.  He said flatly that the only thing he could see me doing
to improve my lap times on the track was to improve the braking power of the
car.

Chuck

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 9:31 AM
> To: 'Team3S'
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:55:51 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: FW: 3S-Racers: FW: FW: Team3S: Carbotech Panther Pad Group  Purch ase

Update with pricing and product code for Porsche Big Red pads in Panther
Plus compound.

Chuck Willis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: anaimi@apple.com [SMTP:anaimi@apple.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:57 AM
> To: Willis, Charles E.
> Subject: Re: 3S-Racers: FW: FW: Team3S: Carbotech Panther Pad Group
> Purchase
>
> Hi chuck,
>
> so far i have the order for you and Richard Garriott.  Please let me
> know who else is interested, because I need to put the order in together.
> Big Red CT-594 in Panther Plus is $179.00 minus the discount + shipping.
>
> Many thanks and let me know if there are anyone else interested in this
> order.
>
> Ali

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:11:03 -0400
From: Michael Reid <mreid@magma.ca>
Subject: Team3S: CAPs VIN Databases

Shane/Team3s:

>I see this is a "Stealth" thread, but is someone trying to track down ALL
>the 3000/Strealth VINs?

As Jeff Lucius pointed out, it's been done already. (Mostly anyway, there
are about 3578 missing VINs in 1991, 553 missing Stealth Turbo's in 1995,
and about 561 missing 3000GT's in 1997 model year).

If anyone can email me scans of brochures or options lists from Mitsu and
Dodge, that would be very helpful in analysing some of the data I have.
I have a few brochure scans, but not enough. I'm particularly interested
in knowing what the various exterior colors were called each year.

It would also be helpful if people could email me their VINs and a list
of all the options their car was equipped with from the factory. I need
this to cross-reference the option codes with the actual options. I haven't
found yet that CAPS knows anything about the actual options on a car. Anyone
ever see different, other than date of manufacture related ?

I extracted data for 151,454  Stealth and 3000GT VINs from the CAPS database.
I sent out some 10 copies of the data but don't think anyone's put it on
the internet anywhere for download yet.

This data is for US and Canadian cars only. Reading the archives I see that
someone has access to the Japan and Europe versions of CAPS, so I'm thinking
that the same can be done for those 3000GT's also.

I should be able to generate a bunch of web pages with the statistics
I've found one of these days... This includes info on tranmsissions,
emissions, country, exterior and interior paint color and most if not
all factory options.

Mike.
94 TT.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:17:54 -0700
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject: Team3S: manual info

could somebody who has a service manual for a 99 front end send me
the pic that shows the front end and how it goes together? I am doing
a 99 conversion and dont really want to buy the manual just for this.
I have a 93 manual and could let you know how they used to do it....:)
I know is not a bolt up conversion so please hold the bantering to a
minimum..........thanks in advance....mainly looking for
illistrations with part numbers and how the details go
together....went to stealth316 and downloaded his info (very
helpfull) but I need one more set of pics.........the pic in the 93
manual looks to have greater detail and I am wondering that the 99
manual has the same

bob K. -----used to be rakoch.bmd on this board if that helps

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:36:35 -0700
From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
Subject: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members

All:

Team3S members are being offered a 10% discount on Speed Bleeder
products.  When ordering, mention that you are a member of Team3S
for the discount.  Whitney is the customer service rep, and she's
great!

http://www.speedbleeder.com

Rich
For the Admins

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:34:19 -0400
From: Michael Reid <mreid@magma.ca>
Subject: Team3S: 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison

AFAIK, in the US and Canada:

the following are the only models with AWS:

91-94 Stealth R/T Turbo
91-99 3000GT VR-4

the following are the only models with ECS:

91-94 Stealth R/T Turbo
94    Stealth R/T Luxury
91-95 3000GT VR-4
95-96 3000GT VR-4 Spyder ???

Except for the 94 R/T Luxury, I think all cars with ECS also had Active
Exhaust.

The R/T Luxury was a model only made in 94, but in many ways it can be
considered an R/T with a fancy option package. The regular 94 R/T was more
like a 91-93 ES and the VINS used support that.

The 96 3000GT Spyders were pretty much like the 95's AFAIK, and I think that's
one reason why the regular 96 VR-4 didn't have ECS, but the 96 VR-4 Spyder
did.
I've no idea if the Spyder SL's had ECS... Anyone ? It might make sense.

Corrections or additions appreciated...

Japan and Euro cars could be quite different. I think Japan may have had a
non-turbo with AWD and AWS, as well as a turbo FWD with automatic.

I also think there were two 94 Stealth turbo's with auto trannies built for
the US.
VINS: JB3AN74K6RY000028 and JB3AN74K8RY000029 . Carfax has nothing on them,
but it
also has nothing on my Canadian 94 TT. Anyone know anywhere else these VINs
could
be checked ?

Mike.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:46:24 -0700
From: "Maupin, Justin" <Justin.Maupin@kla-tencor.com>
Subject: Team3S: Braking

All,

So much talking about brakes I have a question myself... though this is more
attuned to the ABS system... I noticed the other night when I did a e-brake
powerslide to get my ass end around a 45 degree corner that the ABS kicked
back at me in that nasty POW-POW-POW way that it does, like when you pop
your fusable link and your ABS is dead... it resumed normal as soon as I let
the e-brake off(I enjoy doing that entirely too much).  So anyway I figure
this is a function of the ABS, and the system in general doesn't like me
doing it... However I was wondering if there is a way known herein to either
make the ABS more tolerant or design a switchable system that will allow me
to bypass the ABS temporarily without getting the POW-POW-POW kick back.

Thanks,

Justin Maupin

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:03:04 -0400
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: VIN and option research **WAS 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison**

We really need to get ahold of the Asian and Euro CAPS databases.  I know
the Asian cars especially had many options we didn't.  For instance, there
was a "lightweight" GTO MR, the AWD non-turbo automatic GTO SR, various
Recaro seat packages, optional 6 pot AP brakes, and several others.  To the
best of my knowledge, North America is the only locale that got FWD models.

I believe it was Oleg that had all three databases (Asian, European, and
North America)  If he has broadband access and would be so generous as to
upload the multiple CD images, I can provide some temporary FTP space so
that we can start getting the databases into wider distribution.

Jeff VanOrsdal
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
jeffv@1nce.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Michael Reid
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:34 PM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison

AFAIK, in the US and Canada:

the following are the only models with AWS:

91-94 Stealth R/T Turbo
91-99 3000GT VR-4

the following are the only models with ECS:

91-94 Stealth R/T Turbo
94    Stealth R/T Luxury
91-95 3000GT VR-4
95-96 3000GT VR-4 Spyder ???

Except for the 94 R/T Luxury, I think all cars with ECS also had Active
Exhaust.

The R/T Luxury was a model only made in 94, but in many ways it can be
considered an R/T with a fancy option package. The regular 94 R/T was more
like a 91-93 ES and the VINS used support that.

The 96 3000GT Spyders were pretty much like the 95's AFAIK, and I think
that's
one reason why the regular 96 VR-4 didn't have ECS, but the 96 VR-4 Spyder
did.
I've no idea if the Spyder SL's had ECS... Anyone ? It might make sense.

Corrections or additions appreciated...

Japan and Euro cars could be quite different. I think Japan may have had a
non-turbo with AWD and AWS, as well as a turbo FWD with automatic.

I also think there were two 94 Stealth turbo's with auto trannies built for
the US.
VINS: JB3AN74K6RY000028 and JB3AN74K8RY000029 . Carfax has nothing on them,
but it
also has nothing on my Canadian 94 TT. Anyone know anywhere else these VINs
could
be checked ?

Mike.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:35:55 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: VIN and option research **WAS 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison**

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <jeffv@1nce.com>
> We really need to get ahold of the Asian and Euro CAPS databases.
- ---snip---
> I believe it was Oleg that had all three databases (Asian, European, and
> North America)  If he has broadband access and would be so generous as to
> upload the multiple CD images, I can provide some temporary FTP space so
> that we can start getting the databases into wider distribution.
- -------------------->

Vinny Singh said he'll soon be updating our US-spec CAPS database that's
already on our Team3S server.  www.Team3S.com/FAQ-CAPS.htm  It probably
makes sense to put the Asian and Euro CAPS here as well - permanently.  I
think Jeff Mohler is down to our last 500 GIGabytes of storage on the Team3S
server, so he can handle it...  :-)  Knowing Jeff, he's probably already
shopping for a multi Terabyte raid array that will fill the rest of the
"server room"...  <chuckle>

Best,

Forrest

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: 22 Oct 2001 11:41:52 -0700
From: John Monnin <jkmonnin@altavista.com>
Subject: Team3S: Brake hoses and VIN check digits

I saw 2 posts recently that are stright out of DOT Federal regulations.  Working for the final manufacture of a vehicle built in 2 stages I have to know which of these regulaltions effect my company.

QUESTION 1:  Brake lines are for Off road use only, is this normal? 
Aftermarket brake lines are probably superior to stock but the manufacture was unwilling to do expensive testing to prove it.

Brake lines are federally regulated for new vehicle manufacturers:  Note most DOT regualtions specifically say for original equipment manufactures.  Aftermarket parts and performance parts are a very grey area.  Brake lines are regulated by:

U.S. DOT Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards
Title 49, part 571, Standard 106 brake hoses.

The purpose of this standard is to reduce deaths and injuries occurring as a result of brake system failure from pressure or vacuum loss due to hose or hose assembly rupture
This spec gives requirements for burst strength, allowable expansion, and cracking.  It is a fairly involved test procedure that is not cheap to do.  OEM hose meets these requirements but it is not too difficult to exceed these requirements using steel braided hose.  My guess is that the after market companies don’t want to go throw the expense of proving it.  Another issue is that after market parts are not held to the same standard as OEM parts. 

QUESTION 2:  What is correct way to calculate VIN number check digit?
The check digit is a great way to check if someone has faked a VIN number to make their car look like something it is not.  You can easily make a basic program that will calculate VIN check digits (the 9th digit of the VIN number.)

VIN check number decoding is a calculation straight out of the Federal regulations too so every vehicle sold in America must meet this requirment.

Title 49, part 565.6 , VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER REQUIREMENTS

A copy of this section is below

c) The third section shall consist of one character, which occupies position nine (9) in the VIN. This section shall be the check digit whose purpose is to provide a means for verifying the accuracy of any VIN transcription. After all other characters in VIN have been determined by the manufacturer, the check digit shall be calculated by carrying out the mathematical computation specified in paragraphs (c) (1) through (4) of this section.
(1) Assign to each number in the VIN its actual mathematical value and assign to each letter the value specified for it in Table III, as follows:
Table III
Assigned Values
A = 1 J = 1 T = 3
B = 2 K = 2 U = 4
C = 3 L = 3 V = 5
D = 4 M = 4 W = 6
E = 5 N = 5 X = 7
F = 6 P = 7 Y = 8
G = 7 R = 9 Z = 9
H = 8 S = 2
(2) Multiply the assigned value for each character in the VIN by the position weight factor specified in Table IV, as follows:
Table IV
VIN Position and Weight Factor
1st ................8 10th .................. 9
2d .................7 11th....................8
3d..................6 12th....................7
4th ................5 13th....................6
5th ................4 14th....................5
6th ................3 15th....................4
7th ................2 16th....................3
8th................10 17th....................2
9th (check digit) .......0
(3) Add the resulting products and divide the total by 11.
(4) The numerical remainder is the check digit. If the remainder is 10 the letter "X" shall be used to designate the check digit. The correct numeric remainder, zero through nine (0-9) or the letter "X," shall appear in VIN position nine (9).
(5) A sample check digit calculation is shown in Table V as follows:
Table V
Calculation of a Check Digit
VIN Position 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
Sample VIN 1 G 4 A H 5 9 H ... 5 G 1 1 8 3 4 1
Assigned Value 1 7 4 1 8 5 9 8 ... 5 7 1 1 8 3 4 1
Weight Factor 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 10 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
Multiply Assigned value times weight factor 8 49 24 5 32 15 18 80 0 45 56 7 6 40 12 12 2
Add products: 8+49+24+5+32+15+18+80+0+45+56+7+6+40+12+12+2 = 411
Divide by 11: 411/11 = 37 4/11
The remainder is 4; this is the check digit to be inserted in position nine (9) of the VIN

John Monnin
jkmonnin@altavista.com
1991 VR-4, 4-bolt main conversion

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:36:55
From: "Kevin Umbreit" <unclesam099@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison

Mike,
great work!!  one correction that i can offer to you is the '91-'93 R/T non
turbos had ECS.  the '94+ stealth dropped the ES name and went to the R/T
(pretty much an ES) and the R/T luxury.

keep up the good work with the CAPS program!!

- --Kevin
Blue '91 R/T (produced June 1990)
owner of one of the missing VINs

>AFAIK, in the US and Canada:
>
>the following are the only models with AWS:
>
>91-94 Stealth R/T Turbo
>91-99 3000GT VR-4
>
>
>the following are the only models with ECS:
>
>91-94 Stealth R/T Turbo
>94    Stealth R/T Luxury
>91-95 3000GT VR-4
>95-96 3000GT VR-4 Spyder ???
>
>
>Except for the 94 R/T Luxury, I think all cars with ECS also had Active
>Exhaust.
>
>The R/T Luxury was a model only made in 94, but in many ways it can be
>considered an R/T with a fancy option package. The regular 94 R/T was more
>like a 91-93 ES and the VINS used support that.
>
>The 96 3000GT Spyders were pretty much like the 95's AFAIK, and I think
>that's
>one reason why the regular 96 VR-4 didn't have ECS, but the 96 VR-4 Spyder
>did.
>I've no idea if the Spyder SL's had ECS... Anyone ? It might make sense.
>
>Corrections or additions appreciated...
>
>Japan and Euro cars could be quite different. I think Japan may have had a
>non-turbo with AWD and AWS, as well as a turbo FWD with automatic.
>
>I also think there were two 94 Stealth turbo's with auto trannies built for
>the US.
>VINS: JB3AN74K6RY000028 and JB3AN74K8RY000029 . Carfax has nothing on them,
>but it
>also has nothing on my Canadian 94 TT. Anyone know anywhere else these VINs
>could
>be checked ?
>
>Mike.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:06:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: manual info

Hi Bob,

I just purchased a '99 3000GT manual off of ebay this weekend. I'll
be happy to scan and email you the pages you need. Drop me an email
in two weeks if you haven't heard from me and still need this info. I
don't remember seeing part numbers in the other manuals I have.

In the mean time, see if the pictures in the Mitchell Guide I have at
my web site help any. Look at pages 972 and 973. It does have part
numbers. I also have a Mitchell Guide there for Stealths.

Mitchell 3000GT:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/blucius/b-2-mitchell.htm

Mitchell Stealth:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/blucius/b-2-mitchell-s.htm

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 11:17 AM
Subject: Team3S: manual info

could somebody who has a service manual for a 99 ...<snip>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:27:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: VIN and option research

Oleg has sent me copies of these. I am sure there are others that he
sent them too. Maybe one the Team3S admins has copies? There are 6
CDs I think. Maybe a little much for most people to ftp around. :)

Yep, the Mitsu site lists only AWD models for Japan.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.co.jp/docs8/productss/gto99/index.html

Note on the spec page how the gear ratios are different. Anybody have
access to Japan trannies?

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <jeffv@1nce.com>
To: "Team3s Tech List" <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 12:03 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: VIN and option research **WAS 95 & 96 Stealth TT
comparison**

We really need to get ahold of the Asian and Euro CAPS databases.  I
know the Asian cars especially had many options we didn't.  For
instance, there was a "lightweight" GTO MR, the AWD non-turbo
automatic GTO SR, various Recaro seat packages, optional 6 pot AP
brakes, and several others.  To the best of my knowledge, North
America is the only locale that got FWD models.

I believe it was Oleg that had all three databases (Asian, European,
and North America)  If he has broadband access and would be so
generous as to upload the multiple CD images, I can provide some
temporary FTP space so that we can start getting the databases into
wider distribution.

Jeff VanOrsdal
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
jeffv@1nce.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:32:53 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Braking

>So much talking about brakes I have a question myself... though this is more
>attuned to the ABS system... I noticed the other night when I did a e-brake
>powerslide to get my ass end around a 45 degree corner

You want to try that again? A 45 deg corner is a slight turn:
The only corner where you could possibly want to make a handbrake turn
would be a 180 deg hairpin. Even so, the faster way through a hairpin is
with full power and all four tires spinning. Anytime you lock the rear end
up in a turn, you are going s..l..o..w. Maybe the ABS is trying to tell you
something about your cornering style.

>back at me in that nasty POW-POW-POW way that it does, like when you pop
>your fusable link and your ABS is dead... it resumed normal as soon as I let
>the e-brake off(I enjoy doing that entirely too much). 

Yer right, though, it's a lot of fun.  I used a handbrake turn back in my
rally days, when we'd spin the car around in its length doing a bootlegger
turn on a one-lane gravel road. (My navigator would yell, "You dummy! You
missed the turn! Go back!"). What you do is slam on the brakes and then, as
the car gets down to about 15 mph, grab the handbrake and snap it around on
gravel. If you have any kind of shoulder or ditch to work with, it's better
to spin the rear wheels under power and snap it around that way, cuz you
have more control, and the car "launches" out of the turn because the rear
wheels are already spinning in the right direction when the car comes around.

I also used to make a handbrake turn approaching my driveway in my 74 Vega
in snow and ice. I'd come down a hill to a cul-de-sac. As I approached my
driveway (straight ahead), I'd grab the handbrake, turn the car completely
around, grab reverse, and back up my driveway. I got so good at it, the car
never stopped -- it'd just spin and continue backwards. The key was to put
the automatic in neutral, then grab the handbrake, then slap it into
reverse as it was sliding, instead of waiting until it stopped. Stunt
drivers in the movies do that kind of stuff all the time.

Rich/old poop

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:10:29 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: Handbrake turns

I've occasionally contemplated using the hand brake in a turn-around on an
AutoX course, but I've never done it in my VR-4 because I'm nervous about
locking up the rear wheels in an AWD car.  On my old 3000GT (FWD), I did
e-brake 180s no problem (although doing it without stopping or smoking the
front wheels was a challenge). 

So what happens if your going along at 20-30mph and you turn in and jam on
the e-brake in an AWD car?  Obviously it would shock the driveline, but
would it cause the front to lock up as well? 

Not that I ever plan to do this in my VR-4, just curious...

- --Erik

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:24:43 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Handbrake turns

> So what happens if your going along at 20-30mph and you turn
> in and jam on the e-brake in an AWD car?  Obviously it would
> shock the driveline, but would it cause the front to lock up
> as well? 

...if you stay on the e-brake long enough to cause the viscous coupling to
lock up then yes, it'll lock the front wheels too.  I doubt the e-brake has
enough stopping power to do that though.

I'd list e-brake turns under the "not recommended" category for AWD cars.
The Mitsu Lancer EVO VII has an electronically controlled center
differential which disconnects the rear driveline if you pull the e-brake
(making it FWD), which would be the preferable way to do it on an AWD car.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:33:11 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: FW: Team3S: was handbrake turns NOW EVO VII

What is the lists opinion on my statement below....

> > Just as an interesting piece of Info we may see a 230 HP
> > detuned version of the EVO VII around October 2002  :)  Can
> > you say daily driver till 2004 when the warranty expires. 
> > Then out comes the wrenches and airtools plus that lovely
> > sucking sound  [money coming out of my wallet  :(  ]
> >
> > > The Mitsu Lancer EVO VII has an electronically controlled center
> > > differential which disconnects the rear driveline if you pull the
> > > e-brake (making it FWD), which would be the preferable way
> > to do it on
> > > an AWD car.
> > >
> > > -Matt
> > > '95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:03:29 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV Dump Straight to Atmosphere (and GReddy Type S Re port)

First, my experience:

My VR-4 had an HKS Sequential BOV (vents to atmosphere) installed when I
bought it and I drove the car with it installed for about 5000 miles.  I
played with the adjustment screw a little during this time to see how it
affects operation.

Observations(with HKS BOV):
* Loud, but not completely obnoxious whoosh sound
* No gaggle of geese under my hood with K&N installed
* No stalling when adjustment screw was anything but
all the way loose
* Occasional oily/fuel smell when BOV vents
* 1-2mpg lower gas mileage than with stock
BOV (friend's data)
* Definitely ran rich for a second or two after BOV
activation (reports from people following car)
* If BOV activated during a shift (clutch in), there
was a little engine vibration/rocking (from missing?)
if you REALLY paid attention
* If BOV activated from partial throttle with clutch
engaged (i.e. lightly accelerating in 4th at 65mph
and then quickly back off the throttle), the engine
would buck once (miss from being too rich?) and cause
a noticeable jerk and shock to the driveline

A month or so ago, I replaced my HKS BOV with a GReddy Type S BPV (vents
back to intake).  I'm very happy with it.

Observations:
* Almost as loud as the HKS BOV, but it is somewhat
quieter
* No gaggle of geese under my hood with K&N installed
* No stalling when whatsoever
* No oily/fuel smell when BPV vents
* Seems to get better gas mileage, but all the gas
stations recently switched to oxygenated gas for the
winter, so I'm not absolutely sure - stupid
tree-huggers :-)
* Doesn't seem to run rich when BPV activates
* NO engine vibration when BPV activates during shift
* Occasionally I get a very slight buck when BPV
activates under partial throttle conditions, though
it is much less severe than with the HKS BOV and
occurs far less frequently (maybe 1/20th as much
as with the HKS) 
* Turbo spool-up IS noticeably quicker in-between shifts
(provided you shift quickly)

Second, Responses to some previous posts:

> Has anyone noticed any strange effects when venting your
> stock BOV strait to the atmosphere?

Not to sound like a jerk, but why on earth would you want to do that?  Just
the sound?  There's a reason the stock valve vents to the intake in a Karman
Vortex MAS system...

> I vented [my stock BPV to atmosphere] to see what it was
> like.  Got a cool *whoosh* sound when shifting gears, lost
> metered air, did not stall, did not run rich.

It did run rich (no way around that), but apparently not rich enough that it
caused effects that were immediately visible to you...  It HAS to run rich
if you vent metered air with the stock ECU and MAS.

> There is nothing wrong with dumping to atmosphere though
> other than you lose metered air [...] You only lose a little
> performance since your engine needs to suck in that much
> more air.

[Kyle's Broflovski's mom from South Park] whatWhatWHAT?!?  But losing
metered air causes the engine to run rich, robbing you of power and not
giving your turbo the spool-up help that a BPV offers.  Not to mention the
shock on the engine/driveline from bucking/missing when it runs rich...

> > I have heard 2 theories on how this effects performance
> > though: 1) the loss of boost pressure to the atmosphere
> > keep the turbos from staying well spooled
>
> The *exhaust gas* spools the turbo. The BOV has no affect
> on this EXCEPT when it does not function correctly and
> allows high pressure to build in the intake track, which
> tries to slow the compressor wheel, possibly to the point
> of damaging the turbo.

But what about where the vented air (FROM the BPV) goes?  It goes to the
*inlet* side of the turbo, effectively increasing the pressure before the
compressor wheel relative to the pressure after the wheel.  This would cause
a larger pressure differential in the compressor side of the turbo, thereby
decreasing spool-up time.  Next time you have the (non-pressurized side)
intake piping off, look at the "T" pipe directly after the MAS housing,
which is where the stock BPV vents.  Look at the outlets for the BPV
discharge - they're routed so that the air coming out of the BPV is divided
between the two hoses to the turbos.  Further, the air is directed in a
spiral motion as it enters the turbo inlet hoses, which, I assume, is the
same direction that the compressor wheel turns.

- --Erik
'95 VR-4 with GReddy Type S BPV

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Handbrake turns

Thats the old-skool way of a 180 turn in AutoX.

Its really quicker to enter really wide and late apex it.  Learnt that at
Mckammey school

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Gross, Erik wrote:

>
> I've occasionally contemplated using the hand brake in a turn-around on an
> AutoX course, but I've never done it in my VR-4 because I'm nervous about
> locking up the rear wheels in an AWD car.  On my old 3000GT (FWD), I did
> e-brake 180s no problem (although doing it without stopping or smoking the
> front wheels was a challenge). 
>
> So what happens if your going along at 20-30mph and you turn in and jam on
> the e-brake in an AWD car?  Obviously it would shock the driveline, but
> would it cause the front to lock up as well? 
>
> Not that I ever plan to do this in my VR-4, just curious...
>
> --Erik

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:10:18 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Handbrake turns

> Thats the old-skool way of a 180 turn in AutoX.
>
> Its really quicker to enter really wide and late apex it. 
> Learnt that at Mckammey school

Yeah, the way I currently approach the 180s is to brake deep, turn-in fairly
sharply, and then have a nice, wide arc toward the apex cone where I kiss
the "back" side of the apex cone.  Seems to work pretty well - I travel a
little farther than the line directly to the apex, but my exit speed is MUCH
better.

- --Erik

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:30:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Handbrake turns

If you go in realllly wiiiide, you end up with:

1) Much more distance to brake into.
2) Much more distance to accellerate out from.

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Gross, Erik wrote:

> > Thats the old-skool way of a 180 turn in AutoX.
> >
> > Its really quicker to enter really wide and late apex it. 
> > Learnt that at Mckammey school
>
> Yeah, the way I currently approach the 180s is to brake deep, turn-in fairly
> sharply, and then have a nice, wide arc toward the apex cone where I kiss
> the "back" side of the apex cone.  Seems to work pretty well - I travel a
> little farther than the line directly to the apex, but my exit speed is MUCH
> better.
>
> --Erik

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:20:30 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Handbrake turns

Using the E brake to stop the rear wheels should cause the ABS to release
pressure on all four wheels until they are all moving again. We have a BS
two channel ABS system [ Hell the NA cars have a 3 channel system and
real cars have 4 channel ]. The wheels work in diagonal pairs so that if a
front locks, it releases pressure on the locked front and its diagonal partner
in the rear --- it also uses an oddball hydraulic circuit called select low,  which
releases pressure on the other rear wheel so that one rear does not lock up
and cause loss of control. Locking up both rears ought to confuse the hell
out of the ABS --- no matter how much it releases the pressure it can't get
the rears to start turning. It probably keeps releasing pressure until the E
brake can't keep the rears from turning which the ABS interprets as the
restoration of grip so it lets the pressure build which locks the wheels again.

I can see no good coming from this exercise.

        Jim Berry
=======================================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Gross, Erik <erik.gross@intel.com>
To: Team3S List (E-mail) <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>

> I've occasionally contemplated using the hand brake in a turn-around on an
> AutoX course, but I've never done it in my VR-4 because I'm nervous about
> locking up the rear wheels in an AWD car.  On my old 3000GT (FWD), I did
> e-brake 180s no problem (although doing it without stopping or smoking the
> front wheels was a challenge). 
>
> So what happens if your going along at 20-30mph and you turn in and jam on
> the e-brake in an AWD car?  Obviously it would shock the driveline, but
> would it cause the front to lock up as well? 

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:41:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: CAPS downloading Notes

Everyone:

If you would like to DL the CAPS database, thats just dandy, but please
only download what your pipe can support -1- file at a time.

Ive had to block out two dialup providers in my router in the last week,
who feel that downloading -all- the fiels at once is ok.

Look..if you have a 56K modem, youre not getting 56k * 20 if you download
20 files at once.

If you have mega-DSL, and you are annoyed at only getting T1 speeds from
the server, opening 20 more connections aint gonna help either.

:^)

Bob, can you add a polite note about DL'ing the CAPS stuff?

I Have a Toyota parts database that ive had to restrict to only 1 of the
two files online at a time, and rotate every week or so..for the same
reason.  Just Id rather not do that with all the CAPS stuff.

- ---
Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:34:28 -0700
From: "Maupin, Justin" <Justin.Maupin@kla-tencor.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Handbrake turns

For all those concerned about e-brake turn in the VR4... rest assured that I
only did it on the wet road... The road goes 90 degrees ( I said 45 didn't
I) but turning into my driveway as I did would have made it a 180... Guess I
didn't think carefully enough about what I was saying... It has been a long
couple of weeks...  My question still goes unanswered though... can we in
some way temporarily disable the ABS?

Justin

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:19:58 -0700
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members

An  FYI addendum  this subject.... The Stealth 1st Gen TT's do not take the
size 7 on the rears as reported in previous threads. The size 7 is for the
Mitsu 1st gen rears only. This information is reflected accurately at the
Speed Bleeder site where 10's are noted for Stealth rears, and 7's for Mitsu
rears. So, do note this difference in the cars, and do not go by previous
threads here (as  I did) if you have a Stealth.  Mitsu and Stealth rears,
are different.

Best

Darc

Re:

> All:
> Team3S members are being offered a 10% discount on Speed Bleeder
> products.  When ordering, mention that you are a member of Team3S
> for the discount.  Whitney is the customer service rep, and she's
> great!
> http://www.speedbleeder.com
>
> Rich
> For the Admins

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:02:13 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members

Darc --- sorry to burst your bubble, but, I have a 93 stealth and it requires
the 7mm speed bleeders. I am currently installing my front calipers on the
rear of my car and I cannot use the speed bleeders that were on my
rear brakes because they are 7 mm not the 10 mm required on the fronts.

        Jim Berry
====================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Darc <wce@telus.net>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members

> An  FYI addendum  this subject.... The Stealth 1st Gen TT's do not take the
> size 7 on the rears as reported in previous threads. The size 7 is for the
> Mitsu 1st gen rears only. This information is reflected accurately at the
> Speed Bleeder site where 10's are noted for Stealth rears, and 7's for Mitsu
> rears. So, do note this difference in the cars, and do not go by previous
> threads here (as  I did) if you have a Stealth.  Mitsu and Stealth rears,
> are different.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:06:30 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Handbrake turns

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Maupin, Justin <Justin.Maupin@kla-tencor.com>

My question still goes unanswered though... can we in
> some way temporarily disable the ABS?
>
> Justin

It should be fairly easy --- if you remove the 10 amp fuse it
disables the ABS so it should be fairly easy to put a switch
in the line to disable the power to the ABS [ I think ].

    Jim Berry

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:24:19 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <apedenko@home.com>
Subject: OT: Re: Team3S: CAPS downloading Notes

 Just as a side note, and not to p*ss anybody off -

     Certain ISPs impose a per-connection bandwidth limit - I know this from
 experience, my cable modem at home can support up to 10Mb (1megabit/s =
 100k/s, so 1 megabyte/s) but not on one connection. It can only do about
10%
 on one TCP connection. In that case, if your ISP does that, opening another
 connection infact _will_ make things go faster.

     As a software developer, I understand you not wanting to allow multiple
 connections from the same person, but there are also ways to make sure of
 that - there are ways of limiting the number of connections from the same
 IP.

     But in any case, if ur a 56K user, stick to Geoff's advice - 5.6 KBps
 won't become 100 KBps if you have 20 connections going.

     Alex.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> To: <team3s@team3s.com>
> Cc: <3sracers@speedtoys.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 4:41 PM
> Subject: Team3S: CAPS downloading Notes
>
> > Everyone:
> >
> > If you would like to DL the CAPS database, thats just dandy, but please
> > only download what your pipe can support -1- file at a time.
> >
> > Ive had to block out two dialup providers in my router in the last week,
> > who feel that downloading -all- the fiels at once is ok.
> >
> > Look..if you have a 56K modem, youre not getting 56k * 20 if you
download
> > 20 files at once.
> >
> > If you have mega-DSL, and you are annoyed at only getting T1 speeds from
> > the server, opening 20 more connections aint gonna help either.
> >
> > :^)
> >
> > Bob, can you add a polite note about DL'ing the CAPS stuff?
> >
> > I Have a Toyota parts database that ive had to restrict to only 1 of the
> > two files online at a time, and rotate every week or so..for the same
> > reason.  Just Id rather not do that with all the CAPS stuff.
> > ---
> > Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:11:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

> If you come out of the corner in a gear that puts you around 4000-4500 RPM
> then the turbo lag should be short enough to not matter - especially on
> stock turbos.  If the lag is too long, then you should start accelerating
> earlier so it is already pulling when you come out of the corner and take
> better advantage of the AWD.
- ---
Stock pea shooters at 4000+ aint worth it, shoot for more like 3K to get a
decent turque curve out of your power band.
 
> Left foot braking has got to be hard on the tranny and transfer case, which
> are already weak components on these cars.  A stock clutch will be toast in
> no time as well.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

Good work!

Pinch the output ends of the vents to get as much air as -possible- into
the hub..to force air thru the vents of the rotors.

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Darren Schilberg wrote:

> Here are the pictures.  I think these work better than any brake cooling
> ducts I have seen for our cars.  The duct ends up about one inch from
> the 12 o'clock position on the rotor.  I did not add the gutter
> downspout to this picture but this will work on a car that has been
> lowered to the max also.  Attaches near the axle instead of the front of
> the car which ounces up and down to much for those stiff cars.
>
> http://www.speedtoys.com/~dschilberg/cars/brakes/Brake_ducts/index.htm
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:59:11 -0700
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Team3S: Porterfield SS Lines

Team;

As with the Speed Bleeders, there may be  differences in our cars  with the
rear brake lines. Insure what lengths you have on these lines (measure them)
and what ends (male/female--female/female--male/male) are required when
placing your orders with Porterfield for SS replacements. IMHO it appears
there may be differences, particulalry in 1st Gen Stealth as versus 1st Gen
Mitsu. With more feedback to the manufacturer, as with Speed Bleeder, the
problem will become moot.

Best

Darc

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:05:33 -0700
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members

Okie Dokie...ammend the information to read, 1992 Canadian Production (Dog
Sled modle)  RT/TT's require #10 (mm)  Speed Bleeders in the rear, not 7's
as reported. Perhaps the 1993 is the only year that takes 7's??????? It
would stand to reason that Jim would have to have the different one ;-))

Darc

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
To: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>; <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members

> Darc --- sorry to burst your bubble, but, I have a 93 stealth and it
requires
> the 7mm speed bleeders. I am currently installing my front calipers on the
> rear of my car and I cannot use the speed bleeders that were on my
> rear brakes because they are 7 mm not the 10 mm required on the fronts.
>
>         Jim Berry
> ====================================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Darc <wce@telus.net>
> To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 6:19 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members
>
>
> > An  FYI addendum  this subject.... The Stealth 1st Gen TT's do not take
the
> > size 7 on the rears as reported in previous threads. The size 7 is for
the
> > Mitsu 1st gen rears only. This information is reflected accurately at
the
> > Speed Bleeder site where 10's are noted for Stealth rears, and 7's for
Mitsu
> > rears. So, do note this difference in the cars, and do not go by
previous
> > threads here (as  I did) if you have a Stealth.  Mitsu and Stealth
rears,
> > are different.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:24:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

> If you're going to use the brakes like that, you're going to have to have
> some active method for cooling them, like ducts or Rich's water spray.
- ---
ok..thats it..im gonna quote.  *laugh*

"Brake Evaporative Cooling"
This approach uses small quantities of atmomized water that are
injected into the inlet of the brake cooling duct.  Idealy, the water
evaporates before reaching the brake disc, creating the maximum
temperature drop before the air reaches the caliper and disc (essentially
the same priniciple that road racers experience in the rain, when cool
water vapor is ingested into the brake ducts bit in a more controllable
and consistent manner).  The object is to cool the incoming air intake
charge, not to spray water directly onto the disc and cakuoer surfaces.
If water is sprayed directly into the center of the disc area, this
creates steam, which acts as an insulator.  If that happens, you wont
achieve the full benefit of the water chare."

- -end quote- 

Also, AP caliper CP4910 is an example of a caliper with water jacketing so
you can circulate cooling water in it..heh..cool!

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:25:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Ceramic brakes?

It wont fade..never EVER, but it just -wont- stop at all when cold in a
reasonable distance.

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Mihai Raicu wrote:

> Geoff,
>
> Thanks Geoff for the reply.  Keep us posted on how they work on the
> Supras please.  However, "ugly and nasty" does not sound good for the
> fade free streetability I'm interested in.
>
> -MIHAI RAICU-
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geoff Mohler [mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> >
> > The MK4 supra is the first car to get the kit, and I'll be able to get
> our
> > cars as well once those are complete.
> >
> > Race only..swap pads/rotors at the track.  Street use will be ugly
> > nasty...not recommended at all.

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:35:56 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: RE:squirting water

That's it? This is what we've been waiting three weeks for? The big hairy
anti-squirting argument?
If there was a teeny bit of truth to this, the Trans Am cars would use it.
Instead, they squirt raw water directly into the rotor and CREATE STEAM for
cooling.

I will buy this argument for cooling an intercooler or a radiator, because
a 10 degree drop in the ambient air WOULD make a difference. But I still
maintain that 10 F cooler air in the cooling duct won't make a diddly damn
bit of difference to a rotor at 1400 F.

As for cooling brakes in the rain, I think that proves my point more than
yours, because water is splashing up on the rotors. It has nothing to do
with cooler ambient air, because I can fry brakes in November at 35F
ambient just as easily as I can in the summer at 100 F ambient.

Rich

Geoff said:

>ok..thats it..im gonna quote.  *laugh*
>"Brake Evaporative Cooling"
> This approach uses small quantities of atmomized water that are
>injected into the inlet of the brake cooling duct.  Idealy, the water
>evaporates before reaching the brake disc, creating the maximum
>temperature drop before the air reaches the caliper and disc (essentially
>the same priniciple that road racers experience in the rain, when cool
>water vapor is ingested into the brake ducts bit in a more controllable
>and consistent manner).  The object is to cool the incoming air intake
>charge, not to spray water directly onto the disc and cakuoer surfaces.
>If water is sprayed directly into the center of the disc area, this
>creates steam, which acts as an insulator.  If that happens, you wont
>achieve the full benefit of the water chare."
>
>-end quote- 

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:04:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE:squirting water

No offense, but I'll take my brake advice from a book about it first...and
ask nay-sayers for proof or results to dispute it.

Thats all.

:^)

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Merritt wrote:

> That's it? This is what we've been waiting three weeks for? The big hairy
> anti-squirting argument?
> If there was a teeny bit of truth to this, the Trans Am cars would use it.
> Instead, they squirt raw water directly into the rotor and CREATE STEAM for
> cooling.
>
> I will buy this argument for cooling an intercooler or a radiator, because
> a 10 degree drop in the ambient air WOULD make a difference. But I still
> maintain that 10 F cooler air in the cooling duct won't make a diddly damn
> bit of difference to a rotor at 1400 F.
>
> As for cooling brakes in the rain, I think that proves my point more than
> yours, because water is splashing up on the rotors. It has nothing to do
> with cooler ambient air, because I can fry brakes in November at 35F
> ambient just as easily as I can in the summer at 100 F ambient.
>
> Rich
>
> Geoff said:
>
> >ok..thats it..im gonna quote.  *laugh*
> >"Brake Evaporative Cooling"
> > This approach uses small quantities of atmomized water that are
> >injected into the inlet of the brake cooling duct.  Idealy, the water
> >evaporates before reaching the brake disc, creating the maximum
> >temperature drop before the air reaches the caliper and disc (essentially
> >the same priniciple that road racers experience in the rain, when cool
> >water vapor is ingested into the brake ducts bit in a more controllable
> >and consistent manner).  The object is to cool the incoming air intake
> >charge, not to spray water directly onto the disc and cakuoer surfaces.
> >If water is sprayed directly into the center of the disc area, this
> >creates steam, which acts as an insulator.  If that happens, you wont
> >achieve the full benefit of the water chare."
> >-end quote- 

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:05:35 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: RE:squirting water

At 10:04 PM 10/22/01 -0700, Geoff Mohler wrote:
>No offense, but I'll take my brake advice from a book about it first...and
>ask nay-sayers for proof or results to dispute it.

My only proof is that I KNOW my system works.

Without water injection, I lose my brake effectiveness after four hard laps
at Road America. As soon as the brakes start to go away, I start
a'squirtin', and they come back. Then, when the water's gone from the
reservoir, so are the brakes. Time to come in for a refill. Izzat enuf
results for you?

Would that I had the wherewithall and the knowledge to rig up a fiber optic
infrared temperature sensor to track rotor temps pre and post squirt.
        
Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:29:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE:squirting water

> My only proof is that I KNOW my system works.
>
> Without water injection, I lose my brake effectiveness after four hard laps
> at Road America. As soon as the brakes start to go away, I start
> a'squirtin', and they come back. Then, when the water's gone from the
> reservoir, so are the brakes. Time to come in for a refill. Izzat enuf
> results for you?
- ---
No, thats only showing it works, but not that its superior to whats listed
and accepted as 'best practice' by most everyone ive met that wasnt racing
delivery trucks on the beach in Denmark (ever watch that stuff?? WILD!)
 
> Would that I had the wherewithall and the knowledge to rig up a fiber optic
> infrared temperature sensor to track rotor temps pre and post squirt.
>         
>
> Rich

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:33:05 -0500
From: "cody" <overclck@starband.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE:squirting water

Now now children...

I think the real answer may lay in between your arguments.  This means I
AM RIGHT, and both of you are only HALF RIGHT!!!!  :-P 

From my brief knowledge of thermodynamics, I know that the most heat is
transferred during a phase change.  Such as liquid to gas / gas to
liquid / solid to liquid, etc.   You get my point.  Well, how hot does
it have to be for water to vaporize even when sprayed in a fine mist in
a 3" x oh say 30" long tube (ducted to your brakes).

I think the answer to this argument is this.  You don't spray a direct
stream of water on your brakes like you were washing a rotor wish a
hose.  That's gonna take up a lot of water, not to mention possibility
of cooling things too quickly, resulting in warpage. 

The optimum water sprayage  (that's not a word), is to spray a lot of
water, but in the intake tract to the brakes where it is actually
traveling as little "droplets"  These droplets hit the rotor along with
the cool air, and you get 1. Steam if the rotors are hot enough  2.
Cooler brakes  The steam shows that a lot of heat is being transferred.
This is normal if you are spraying enough water.  But...  the water that
is sprayed actually hits the rotor and vaporizes immediately.

So - Rich - you are right about the steam forming and the amount of
water, but the optimum is to spray a constant spray of water but in a
manner that spreads out the water as much as possible (not in a direct
stream), and Geoff - you are right too, but the water does not vaporize
before it hits the rotor, it vaporizes as it hits the rotor (producing
steam, and producing enough steam to notice if you are using enough
water)

An examples:  The water spray you want in the tubing is like a
conventional shower head - spread out and not directly on the rotor (you
want it off the rotor so it has a chance to mix with incoming air giving
it more "swirl", you don't want water spray that mimics a "massage"
shower head pointing directly on the rotor.  This could cause warpage,
and is not quite as efficient (should still work, but not as
efficiently).

Think about watering your lawn with a hand held sprayer - to get the
most effective coverage, you are going to use the largest, most spread
out spray pattern because it will cover more evenly than trying the
"pressure sprayer" and trying to cover every inch of grass (or rotor).

So, there is my theory, taken from all the sources I could find on the
net relating to it, and a little bit of common sense...  If I misread
what anyone had said before, I apologize, as I only half followed the
thread before...

- -Cody

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 05:53:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members

As I and others have mentioned in past related posts, it is very easy
to tell if you have 7 mm or 10 mm threaded bleeders in back (all
fronts are 10 mm as is the clutch bleeder, AFAIK). Just see what size
wrench fits the hexagonal used to loosen and tighten the bleeder. An
8 mm wrench fits our 7 mm threaded bleeders and a 10 mm wrench fits
10 mm threads. As far I and others can tell only the following 3S
cars (US models only?) have 7 mm threaded bleeders in back: 3/92-5/93
production dates (some '92s and probably all '93s). My '92 Stealth TT
with a production date of 92.03.02 has 7 mm bleeders in back.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
To: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>; <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members

Okie Dokie...ammend the information to read, 1992 Canadian Production
(Dog Sled modle)  RT/TT's require #10 (mm)  Speed Bleeders in the
rear, not 7's as reported. Perhaps the 1993 is the only year that
takes 7's??????? It would stand to reason that Jim would have to have
the different one ;-))

Darc

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:22:06 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members

Wow!  If the bleed screws are different are the rear calipers
different too?  Or still just the old single piston floating caliper?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darc [SMTP:wce@telus.net]
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 8:20 PM
> To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Speed Bleeder Discount For Team3S Members
>
> An  FYI addendum  this subject.... The Stealth 1st Gen TT's do not take
> the
> size 7 on the rears as reported in previous threads. The size 7 is for the
> Mitsu 1st gen rears only. This information is reflected accurately at the
> Speed Bleeder site where 10's are noted for Stealth rears, and 7's for
> Mitsu
> rears. So, do note this difference in the cars, and do not go by previous
> threads here (as  I did) if you have a Stealth.  Mitsu and Stealth rears,
> are different.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:24:59 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

Could somebody post/or link a graphic representation of the torque curve for
1st and 2nd gen VR4's with stock turbos?

> Stock pea shooters at 4000+ aint worth it, shoot for more like 3K to get a
> decent turque curve out of your power band.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:40:04 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE:squirting water

And I shouldn't comment how at Kansas Rich was doing his water spraying
magic and not going 5 seconds faster than us ... should I?  I think he
was the fastest because there was human timing and only clocked him at
most 0.5 second faster in the 7 sessions we timed.

Just trying to add some substance.  I know Heartland Park is not Road
Atlanta.  And I know Rich was following Chuck's line to learn it more so
I don't know if we ever saw Rich break out and have a best lap since he
was doing more learning.

Rich?  How much faster you think you coulda gone without someone in
front to slow you down?

Also ... Rich, Chuck, and Chuck's son were in A Group and were
speedbumps for the full race-prepped cars.  I was in C Group and only
got passed by 2 cars and passed all the others (some twice in one
session).  I'll bet that has something to do with it also since I was
not held up as much by sticking my arm out the window.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: cody
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 01:33
 
From my brief knowledge of thermodynamics, I know that the most heat is
transferred during a phase change.  Such as liquid to gas / gas to
liquid / solid to liquid, etc.   You get my point.  Well, how hot does
it have to be for water to vaporize even when sprayed in a fine mist in
a 3" x oh say 30" long tube (ducted to your brakes).

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:43:37 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

I agree that LFB is not needed in every turn but Kansas offered such
great places.  It is the flattest course I ever ran.  Mid-Ohio is not
hilly by any means but has more higher speed corners than Kansas and
Watkins Glen is my most favorite of all so far (haven't hit the other
big tracks yet, though).

I was also doing what *I* needed to keep up with the group and push
myself.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E.
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 12:26
 
I don't disagree that left foot braking is a good trick for keeping the
rpms
up while slowing down enough to turn in - I just don't believe it is
necessary or helpful for every turn.  I think you are just grinding the
pads
down most places on the track.

Another thing, just because somebody (me) is an instructor doesn't mean
they
are fast, or driving up to the car's potential - it means they can get
around the track safely and have some ability (or training) to
communicate
that skill to a student.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:50:46 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?

I missed what you mean here?

Were you saying to pinch the rotor end to speed up airflow?  Direct it
toward the inside of the rotor so it slings out through the vanes?  Keep
it pointed at the rotor after the caliper?  Before the caliper?

I had to pinch the front (although it maintains the same cross-sectional
area) to avoid the speedbumps and daily driving.  I did remove the
gutter downspout funnel that leads to the intake.  This is a 2"x8"
rectangle that funnels into a 3" diameter hole.  This setup stayed on
all week until I went for an alignment.  This was also the first setup
of this design.  Total cost ... around $10 for both sides.

I was able to get it right up near the rotor and it was not pinched by
the tires when at full lock.  I hope they bend the same way when on the
track but I never got to test them.  I had them on for 20 miles of road
driving (the one in the picture) but not one on the driver's side.  When
I pulled over I put the back of my fingers near the cooled rotor and
then near the un-cooled rotor.  I couldn't tell a difference.  I needed
a pyrometer.

All I know is that with the stock plastic covering under the front of
the car and without punching holes in the wheelwell splashguard area
this is the only way to get a duct to the brakes.  Merritt has his
under-the-car-splashguard removed so he can afford to put up to a 4"
tube I believe.  I don't have that luxury.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 23:14
 
Good work!

Pinch the output ends of the vents to get as much air as -possible- into
the hub..to force air thru the vents of the rotors.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:52:31 -0600
From: "Floyd, Jim" <Jim_Floyd@Maxtor.com>
Subject: Team3S: NOS injection effect on compression ratio and combustion chamber  volume.

  I had a local mustang owner with NOS tell me this:
 
1) Injecting NOS into your engine increases the compression ratio of
the combustion chamber while injecting NOS.
2) Injecting NOS increases the volume of gasoline in the combustion
chamber while injecting NOS.
    Because you have to increase gas volume during NOS injection.

Is this true ?

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:56:03 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Handbrake turns

I've done it on an AutoX course once.  Didn't work and took my
concentration from where it was needed.  I think it just slowed the car
down more than I wanted since the car is so heavy.

Another old AutoX trick is to pump the rear tires up to at least 5 psi
higher than the front (if not 10 psi).  This will allow them to not grip
as well since they have too much air in them.  Boy howdy can you pivot
around corners then.  However, slalom sections get real interesting.

Just remember that our cars generally are not good at AutoX.  I
routinely get beat by a New Beetle, FWD Talon, Integra (NON Type R),
etc.  Just aggravating (and as Merritt says) not worth the effort that 3
45-second runs for $15 gives you when an open track day is $100 and I
get 6 hours of track time.

- --Flash!

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:05:55 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Team3S: CAPS downloading Notes

Not car tech but DSL tech that many (most) home connections are ADSL
(asynchronous DSL) and not SDSL (synchronous DSL) which means it is
faster downloading than uploading.  One site that I like to test the
current Internet connection on is www.2wire.com/services/bwm.html where
you can test the bandwidth.  Biased I am sure but it is a rule-of-thumb.

But your connection is only governed by the weakest link.  If you plug a
cable into Geoff's server than you get 100 Mbps.  If you dialup then you
get 43.3 kbps.  DSL ain't T1 and even T1 ain't T3 and both of those
don't see T1 speed since it is going through some slower connection on
the way through.  And if Geoff's server is only dishing things out from
a 500 Mhz chip then your new whiz-bang machine is still going to see
slow connections.

Then you get into some people's webpages that have a restriction on how
much is passed through the bandwidth in a month.  Etc.  In case people
were not aware of how some connections work.

Maybe there is a need for mirror sites in Germany, Sweden, Ireland, etc.
where other 3/S owners are.  :)  Besides, I wanna race head-to-head with
someone over an Internet connection from 3/S sometime ... like Gran
Turismo where they have cars close to what we have?  <grin>

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pedenko
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 22:24
 
     Certain ISPs impose a per-connection bandwidth limit - I know this
from
 experience, my cable modem at home can support up to 10Mb (1megabit/s =
 100k/s, so 1 megabyte/s) but not on one connection. It can only do
about
10%
 on one TCP connection. In that case, if your ISP does that, opening
another
 connection infact _will_ make things go faster.

     As a software developer, I understand you not wanting to allow
multiple
 connections from the same person, but there are also ways to make sure
of
 that - there are ways of limiting the number of connections from the
same
 IP.

     But in any case, if ur a 56K user, stick to Geoff's advice - 5.6
KBps
 won't become 100 KBps if you have 20 connections going.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:08:25 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Porterfield SS Lines

I believe I have some pictures of my SS lines on my 1995 VR-4 if it is
worth people to see or see the difference (if any) from their car to
mine.

For some initial pictures look at my Big Red install page.  I know I
have more pictures of the rear SS lines as well.

www.speedtoys.com/~dschilberg/cars/brakes/BigReds_install.html

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Darc
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 22:59
 
As with the Speed Bleeders, there may be  differences in our cars  with
the
rear brake lines. Insure what lengths you have on these lines (measure
them)
and what ends (male/female--female/female--male/male) are required when
placing your orders with Porterfield for SS replacements. IMHO it
appears
there may be differences, particulalry in 1st Gen Stealth as versus 1st
Gen
Mitsu. With more feedback to the manufacturer, as with Speed Bleeder,
the
problem will become moot.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:01:08 -0500
From: "cody" <overclck@starband.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: NOS injection effect on compression ratio and combustion chamber volume.

Kinda...  Its not really compression ratio you are changing, but you are
compressing a lot more volume of air, because the N20 breaks down into
oxygen and nitrogen and this added volume creates higher cylinder
pressures.  Compression ratio does not change without mechanical
changes. 

When NOS is injected, fuel is also injected.  Nitrous is only a
catalyst.  You have to have air in order for fuel to combust.  You can
add fuel all day long and not gain one single HP.  You can add air all
day long (or NOS) and not gain a single HP (and prolly run lean and burn
a piston), but when you add the two together, you get from a little to a
lot of extra HP, depending on how much NOS and fuel you additionally
inject. 

Think of it the same way you do a turbo, except with an on/off switch.
Extra air from the turbo means extra fuel is needed.

- -Cody

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Floyd, Jim
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:53 AM
To: 'Team 3S'
Subject: Team3S: NOS injection effect on compression ratio and
combustion chamber volume.

  I had a local mustang owner with NOS tell me this:
 
1) Injecting NOS into your engine increases the compression
ratio of
the combustion chamber while injecting NOS.
2) Injecting NOS increases the volume of gasoline in the
combustion
chamber while injecting NOS.
    Because you have to increase gas volume during NOS
injection.

Is this true ?

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:18:18 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Handbrake turns

> Just remember that our cars generally are not good at AutoX. 

I beg to differ.  ;-)  My times are very close to the modified Porsches in
my class (A-Prepared) with my car on stock suspension and street tires where
they are on full-out race rubber and have completely redone suspension and
the whole works.  3/S cars can be competitive just as any other car can
be...  AutoX is 90% driver.

...and my friend took the season trophy in the entire Stock Street Tire
class with his completely bone-stock 1991 3000GT VR4 against all sorts of
Integras, Probes, VW's, Neons, etc.

Go figure.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #653
***************************************