Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Monday, October 22
2001 Volume 01 : Number
652
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:41:12 -0500
From: Shane Thoms <
shanethoms@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison
I see this is a "Stealth"
thread, but is someone trying to track down ALL
the 3000/Strealth
VINs?
Shane
> > I was looking over your site an production
volumes and have a question
> > about the missing VIN numbers --- have
you run a carfax on any of the
> > numbers or checked with a dealer
data base to see if any exist.
>
>I assume you are talking about the
'91 and '97 missing #s. We know at least
>some of the missing #'s
are actual cars out there since one of the guys on the
>3SI board owns one
of the missing VINs ('91 R/T TT). Mike Reid only has the
>missing
sequence #'s and therefore requires you to guess at the check digit
>which
could be 0-9 or X. This is assuming you know it is a Mitsubishi
vs
>Stealth and a TT vs base etc. Once you enter the complete VIN
correctly into
>carfax, you will know what kind of car it is and where it
was last titled etc.
>If anyone would like to volunteer to go through the
missing VINs to determine
>how that particular car was built, email Mike
and he'll give you all the
>missing
>VINs. You might get
lucky like I did while decoding the '95 R/T TT in
>that all
>the
missing VINs from 1995 were Dodge Stealth R/T TTs which only left the
>check
>digit as the only variable. It was made even easier
for me when I found a way
>to get the whole VIN from Chrysler given just
the sequence #.
>
>Mike Reid:
mreid@magma.ca>
>Joe
G.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:57:30
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison
You mean all the 151,000+
cars? That would be quite a feat and
database. :)
I think Michael
Reid deserves a bit of praise and thanks for
deciphering the CAPS info for
us. See some of his results at the web
page below.
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius5/j5-2-production.htmJeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ---
Shane Thoms <
shanethoms@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I see this is a "Stealth" thread, but is someone trying to
track
> down ALL the 3000/Strealth VINs?
>
>
Shane
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:45:54
-0400
From: Ken Stanton <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Questions on Turbo Setups
I agree with Jim here.. good
answers =)
But hey, we like thinkers.. thinkers get us great
mods!!
Ken
- --
Ken Stanton
Organizer - 3SI Rochester
(NY)
'91 Pearl White R/T TwinTurbo
Super Snoopy - Plates 007KEN
FIPK,
HKS Exhaust, APEXi AVC-R, Improved Precats
Bozzspeed Lightweight Flywheel,
RPS Stage II
6-speed transmission (5-6 speed conversion)
Aiwa MP3
Stereo
Jim Berry wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>
From: Paul @ Diablo Enterprises <
Team3S@DiabloEnterprises.com>
>
>
> I've got two questions.
> > 1. Is it bad for twin turbo
setups if the intercooler piping is longer for one turbo than the
other?
>
> No !!!! the output from the two turbos merges at the 'Y'
pipe so the pressure
> is equalized anyway.
>
> > 2.
Would it be more effective if the intercoolers were before the
turbos?
>
> No again --- while you want the intake air as cool as
possible there is no way
> to cool the intake charge below ambient
unless you use an AC unit. The
> turbos heat the intake charge by
compression heating, heat transfer from the
> turbos and the
inefficiencies of the turbos ---- the goal of the intercooler is to
>
remove as much of the heat added by the turbos as
possible.
>
> Jim
Berry
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:39:10
-0700
From: Rich <
rleroy@pacifier.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Semi-Urgent - SS Brake Line Question
All:
During the
install of Darcy's brake upgrades, we notice
a sticker on the lines that
reads:
"WARNING Not for street use - For offroad use
only"
Is this normal? Do we have the correct lines?
Please
respond ASAP as we are in the garage, wrenches in hand,
waiting for
a response.
Rich & Darcy
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:14:47
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Semi-Urgent - SS Brake Line Question
Thats 100% normal for
anything that hasnt passed DOT testing.
Feel quite safe..that they are
safe. These are made for racers..and will
be of at least a minimal
qualtity than anything found via mail order.
On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Rich
wrote:
> All:
>
> During the install of Darcy's brake
upgrades, we notice
> a sticker on the lines that reads:
>
>
"WARNING Not for street use - For offroad use only"
>
> Is
this normal? Do we have the correct lines? Please
> respond
ASAP as we are in the garage, wrenches in hand,
> waiting for a
response.
>
> Rich & Darcy
Geoff Mohler
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:20:37
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
OT: Sears Point Gathering Oct27/28! - (+Teaser Photos)
Here's your weekly
reminder that we're getting the Best Coast dudes and
dudettes together for 2
days of NASA HPDE (High Performance Driving Events)
on October 27th and 28th
at Sears Point. This is a great, fun track to run!
This is also a
family event, and we'll be doing a special Parade Lap -
possibly driving kids
around the track so they may experience what it feels
like (low speed, of
course). If you just want to watch, it's only $5 for
parking, and $5 if
you want to join in the parade lap. If you want to
participate as a
driver, please sign up for the event. It's at:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/typ_html_nav.asp?ObjectID=6128Here
are the folks on the short list so far:
Geoff Mohler, Nissa Mohler
Bob
Forrest , Eileen Thomas "ET"
Jim Berry
Kurt Zobel
Ann Koch
Jim
Elferdink
Michael Baldwin
Damon Rachell
Chris Winkley
Ken
Middaugh
Walt Wolney
Jeff Sloan
Jay Cena
George Passot
Here
are some teaser photos of Jeff/Nissa & Bob/ET at Sears Point
last
month:
http://www.headonphotos.net/Galleries/NASA-0928/881/pages/IMG_1047.htmhttp://www.headonphotos.net/Galleries/NASA-0928/881/pages/IMG_1056.htm>
http://www.headonphotos.net/Galleries/NASA-0928/527/pages/IMG_0274.htmhttp://www.headonphotos.net/Galleries/NASA-0928/527/pages/IMG_0275.htmhttp://www.headonphotos.net/Galleries/NASA-0928/527/pages/IMG_0313.htmAnd
I never did a 'proper' race report or page for Team3S, but ET & I put
up
a private page for family/friends (with our car on top - apologies to
all),
of a bunch of us at a similar NASA HPDE at Thunderhill Raceway Park in
July.
Since I don't have time to re-do it, here's the URL:
www.Team3S.com/THill.htmMore
details about lodging and anything else you need to know on the
Speedtoys
site:
http://www.speedtoys.com/sp102728.htmSign
up ASAP - this is going to be
great!
Best,
Forrest
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:40:16
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Questions on Turbo Setups
True, Ken. I think Paul might
have been thinking of the exhaust being
the same length so that there is not
an unequal pressure. This is why
many engine mods have those pipes
coming off the headers in such an odd
fashion ... so that the ones in the
middle are the same length as the
ones on the outside. Looks like a big
set of monkey bars until you
learn they are all the same
length.
However, part of my Engineer brain thinks that anything with a
pressure
inside it takes that first fraction of a second and then once
everything
is equalized then it doesn't matter if one hose is one foot or a
hundred
feet it has the same pressure all along it (obviously the shorter
the
pipes then the less they can expand, lose through fittings,
etc.).
Just for kicks though someone could dyno their car with stock IC
pipes
and then put on about 20 feet of PVC tubing pipes and try again and
see
what the difference is.
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Ken Stanton
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001
13:46
I agree with Jim here.. good answers =)
But hey,
we like thinkers.. thinkers get us great mods!!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:30:24
-0400
From: Santo Nucifora <
Santo.Nucifora@senecac.on.ca>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison
Hi Ann.
I have a 95
Canadian brochure for the 95 Stealth and both the AWS and
triple mode
suspension are gone. The US and Canadian models should be the
same and I
would assume that the 96 would be the same also.
Hope this
helps,
Santo Nucifora
http://stealth.senecac.on.caAnn
Koch wrote:
> Does anyone know when (or if) Dodge started eleminating
some of the
> special features of the TT as it was phasing out the
car? I've heard
> that the 95 TT might not have such features as AWS
and suspension
> control. How can one tell? Are there certain
production numbers on
> vehicles or is there a date after which these
features were eleminated?
> Thanks.
>
> Ann Koch
> Blue
93 stealth TT; all stock except Big Red brakes
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:51:03
-0600
From: "Zach Sauerman" <
axemaddock@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: kill-switch
Good evening.
I have been thinking about
installing some sort of kill-switch to help keep
my baby in her parking
space. I have the anti-theft system, but when I use
the turbo timer, the
system doesn't arm. I always take the little key-guard
wafer device with me,
but am not sure how well that really works. I figure
that if someone was to
hop in with the know-how and necessary tools to
hotwire the car, they may be
able to by-pass that system. Is this true or
false? Can I just depend on
that?
If I were to wire in a kill-switch somewhere, I think I could better
insure
myself against theft.
I took a look at the electrical service
manual and saw that on page 8-23 the
illustration of the fusebox says #12 is
for the ignition switch going to the
ignition coil, power transistor, MFI
relay, and engine control module. Could
I find the lead to that fuse and tap
into it and run a wire to a hidden
switch? If I were to open the switch, I
figure it would behave as a blown
fuse. If that circuit is open, and that
fuse is for the coil, theoretically
the car would not start, right? But,
like the manual says, this is for the
ignition switch, so if someone were to
be hotwiring, would they just be
bypassing this alltogether?
I also worry
about any side-effects if I am continually opening that circuit
because it
goes to the ECM. Would this give me troubles on start-up and the
first few
minutes of driving if the ECM is always 'forgetting' what it has
learned by
losing electricity?
Is there a better circuit to try this on? I am looking to
make this a hidden
switch that would prevent the powerplant from starting
during hotwiring.
I would appreciate any input and
ideas.
Respectfully,
Zach Sauerman
'94 Pearl Yellow
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:09:58
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@starband.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: kill-switch
I am, and would go for the wire that leads to the
Fuel Pump. That way,
they'll figure you've really outsmarted them, they
won't know where to
look, and... It'll take em too much time to find
your kill switch, so
they will move on. Of course, the problem with
this, is that they get
pissed off and tear the crap out of your car... I do
suppose that is
better than not having the car at all though...
-
-Cody
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Zach Sauerman
Sent: Sunday,
October 21, 2001 10:51 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: kill-switch
Good evening.
I have been thinking about
installing some sort of kill-switch to help
keep
my baby in her parking
space. I have the anti-theft system, but when I
use
the turbo timer, the
system doesn't arm. I always take the little
key-guard
wafer device with
me, but am not sure how well that really works. I
figure
that if someone
was to hop in with the know-how and necessary tools to
hotwire the car, they
may be able to by-pass that system. Is this true
or
false? Can I just
depend on that?
If I were to wire in a kill-switch somewhere, I think I could
better
insure
myself against theft.
I took a look at the electrical
service manual and saw that on page 8-23
the
illustration of the fusebox
says #12 is for the ignition switch going to
the
ignition coil, power
transistor, MFI relay, and engine control module.
Could
I find the lead
to that fuse and tap into it and run a wire to a hidden
switch? If I were to
open the switch, I figure it would behave as a
blown
fuse. If that
circuit is open, and that fuse is for the coil,
theoretically
the car
would not start, right? But, like the manual says, this is for
the
ignition switch, so if someone were to be hotwiring, would they just be
bypassing this alltogether?
I also worry about any side-effects if I am
continually opening that
circuit
because it goes to the ECM. Would this
give me troubles on start-up and
the
first few minutes of driving if the
ECM is always 'forgetting' what it
has
learned by losing
electricity?
Is there a better circuit to try this on? I am looking to make
this a
hidden
switch that would prevent the powerplant from starting
during hotwiring.
I would appreciate any input and
ideas.
Respectfully,
Zach Sauerman
'94 Pearl Yellow
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:22:11
-0400
From: MIHAI RAICU <
mraicu@wayne.edu>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
Ceramic brakes?
Geoff,
I searched the archives for the
carbon/carbon brake setup
($1700) talk you initiated ~1 month ago. I
can't find it.
Can you comment anything on the ceramic brakes you
mentioned,
the components included in the setup, and why it will not
work on the street. Can't I just warm up the brakes a little
every
morning, and if I do this will they work if I have to
slam on the brakes 15
minutes later on the highway? What
about heat resistance issues with
the rest of the components
around the wheels like Roger Gerl
mentioned?
Maybe you hsve seen the discussion between Roger Gerl, Jim
Berry and I for the past 2 days.
- -MIHAI RAICU-
95 Red
VR4
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:09:33 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Ceramic brakes?
To: <
aa2345@wayne.edu>, <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>,
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
you need to direct the questions to Geoff --- the
carbon/carbon
setup was for rotors and pads only and it's not just a
matter
or
wiping the water off. Appearently the carbon absorbs
moisture
and it must be driven out through heating of the rotor/pad so
for
street use you would have to preheat them before you use
them --- on a track
you can heat them on the warmup
lap.
Jim
Berry
=========================================
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:30:23
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: kill-switch
There was a line on here about a year ago about
someone in Ireland (or
perhaps our only VR-4 Irish owner) and their "bonnet
lock and/or boot
lock" (a hood is a bonnet and a trunk is a boot in the
states). I can't
find it now but this was the best method I have
seen.
They are "experts with our cars and hot wiring" but only to find
out
what is needed to protect them. They said they can get in a locked
car
and shut off the alarm and drive off in under 18 seconds or
something.
A semi-pro could do it in under 45 seconds or something.
However, with
the bonnet and boot locks employed it took them more than 10
minutes.
Wow. And they are pros.
The idea in general is that a
lock is deep inside the engine where it is
not easy to access (they ended up
putting the car on a lift to get to it
easier). This locks the hood
down so it can not be opened. Same with
the trunk. Without these
devices turned on the car will not start.
Essentially what you want to do ...
not let the car start without the
switch on.
Can we see that link
again? I'll search the archives as well.
- --Flash!
1995
VR-4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Zach Sauerman
Sent: Sunday,
October 21, 2001 23:51
Good evening.
I have been thinking about
installing some sort of kill-switch to help
keep
my baby in her parking
space. I have the anti-theft system, but when I
use
the turbo timer, the
system doesn't arm. I always take the little
key-guard
wafer device with
me, but am not sure how well that really works. I
figure
that if someone
was to hop in with the know-how and necessary tools to
hotwire the car, they
may be able to by-pass that system. Is this true
or
false? Can I just
depend on that?
If I were to wire in a kill-switch somewhere, I think I could
better
insure
myself against theft.
I took a look at the electrical
service manual and saw that on page 8-23
the
illustration of the fusebox
says #12 is for the ignition switch going to
the
ignition coil, power
transistor, MFI relay, and engine control module.
Could
I find the lead
to that fuse and tap into it and run a wire to a hidden
switch? If I were to
open the switch, I figure it would behave as a
blown
fuse. If that
circuit is open, and that fuse is for the coil,
theoretically
the car
would not start, right? But, like the manual says, this is for
the
ignition switch, so if someone were to be hotwiring, would they just be
bypassing this alltogether?
I also worry about any side-effects if I am
continually opening that
circuit
because it goes to the ECM. Would this
give me troubles on start-up and
the
first few minutes of driving if the
ECM is always 'forgetting' what it
has
learned by losing
electricity?
Is there a better circuit to try this on? I am looking to make
this a
hidden
switch that would prevent the powerplant from starting
during hotwiring.
I would appreciate any input and ideas.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:40:08
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: kill-switch
Search the archives for "+bonnet +lock" to get this
link from George
Shaw (sorry I forgot your name, George).
And I was
close to remembering the speed it took them to get into the
car too but
underestimated. See below for his original post. Perhaps
George
can post that again. He sent me a scanned brochure once and I
would
like this for my own car but I can't find it now.
- --Flash!
dschilberg@pobox.com1995
VR-4
- -----Archived Message-----
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:37:35
+0100
From: "George Shaw" <
george.shaw@btinternet.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Strut Covers, Wires, Remote Start
Clifford provides a way of
fitting their remote start feature to a
manual.
It involves a routine to
be carried out prior to leaving the car,
forcing
the user to make the car
safe i.e. placing it in neutral. If this
sequence
is not followed, the
remote start will not work. I believe it is simple
to
rig a relay for most
remote start systems to provide the same. My own
companies system uses a
hand-brake interlock and a gear interlock to do
the
same thing. Forward to
me the details of the system you are looking at
and I
will see if I can
produce a diagram for you.
I strongly suggest that if you use a remote
start, that you also fit a
hood
(bonnet) lock as it is very easy to "pop"
the hood from outside the car
(I
can open any Stealth or 3KGT in 12 secs
and silence the alarm in 2),
open
the doors via the exposed fuse box and
enter the car and drive off,
takes
about 45 secs. A thief watching say in
a car park over a few days will
learn
the pattern for you remote starting
the car, say 10 mins before you
leave
the office, watch till the car
starts and he is off in less than 60
secs,
and the alarm (any alarm) can
be bypassed from under the hood, the
immobiliser is already bypassed and the
engine heated up. An electronic
hood
lock costs about £85 (£30 fitting or
DIY) is completely automatic and
can
not be "got around" unless the car is
in a garage equipped with a ramp
and a
lot of time. (The system I fitted
to my 3KGT TT took 25 mins to fit and
takes about 1h 30 mins to get around,
and we know what we are doing. I
also
fitted the same lock to the trunk
release). You can fit such a lock in
around an hour or less, one bracket to
screw in place, three electrical
connections to make and the bowden cable to
cut. If anyone wants details
drop me a
line.
eMail:
george.shaw@btinternet.comFax/Voice
Mail: +44 (0) 87 0133
6126
Mobile:
+44 (0) 78 1162
5179
Home:
+44 (0) 28 9062
8924
ICQ#:
1741675
- -----Original Message-----
From: Darren Schilberg
Sent:
Monday, October 22, 2001 01:30
There was a line on here about a
year ago about someone in Ireland (or
perhaps our only VR-4 Irish owner) and
their "bonnet lock and/or boot
lock" (a hood is a bonnet and a trunk is a
boot in the states). I can't
find it now but this was the best method I
have seen.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:47:34
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: kill-switch
Silly me ... if you search for "immobiliser" then the
first link gives
you this email and other links give the other included
emails. Some of
the links might not work but the data is
accurate.
- --Flash!
- -----Archived Message-----
Date: Sat, 16
Sep 2000 10:47:48 +0100
From: "George Shaw" <
george.shaw@btinternet.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Remote Start & Hood Lock
Hi to all that have shown interest
in locking down the hood and trunk.
So as
not to clutter up the list, I
will compile an interested parties list by
email and post a digest version
answering all the questions in one
posting.
If anyone else is interested
in the details please email me direct. I
can
offer a discount for any list
members interested in purchasing. (I am
also
looking for a USA/Canada
distrubutor)
The lock is built in England by a friends company CarSafe
Ltd
(
www.carsafe.co.uk) and fits near
any car or van on the road. I have
fabricated the required brackets for the
3KGT/GTO/STEALTH. It works by
physically separating the manual cable release
from the actual release
mechanism. It is in a permanent locked position and
only releases when
the
immobiliser is activated via the key or via any
electronic alarm device
you
choose dependant on level of security you
require. When the electronic
are
"Live" the hood or trunk can be opened as
normal, if the battery runs
flat
you can "jump" via the cigarette lighter
socket with as low as 2V
q. Do you have any pictures or
diagrams?
a. Yes see attached (I will have details on my web site as soon
as I get
rid
of this bout of flu). (
http://www.airlarm.com sould be active
by
Sunday)
q. I know the hood and trunk have a signal to sound the alarm
if after
locking it is forced open. Can you tell me where these
are?
a. The UK spec has a "pin switch" on the drivers side (RHD) mounted on
a
bracket, it has a square convoluted rubber cover which also controls
the
hood light, the trunk uses the trunk light switch.
q. Does the thief
really need to gain access to the engine compartment
to
steal the
car?
a. YES in most every case, (don't believe what you see in the
movies.
Alarms
can be bypassed, fuses/relays bridged, starters fired (6"
spanner 2
secs)even batteries removed (black-market value on a good battery
about
$10-30)Some but very few cars or vans can be started via the
ignition
switch
being taken to earth (chassis) but more modern cars don't
allow
this.
eMail:
george.shaw@btinternet.comFax/Voice
Mail: +44 (0) 87 0133
6126
Mobile:
+44 (0) 78 1162
5179
Home:
+44 (0) 28 9062
8924
ICQ#:
1741675
- -----Archived Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st[mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of ian sweeney
Sent: 02 February 2001 23:23
To:
team3s-digest@mail.stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: Lo-Jack and theft deterrent
further to the lo-jack idea there is
an immobiliser that interacts with
the
likes of lo-jack to shut the car
down remotely. (i'm a little biased
cos i
used to work for the
company that designed them!) but it is quite a cool
system that has 3
electrical circuit immobilisation, e.g coil, starter,
fuel
pump but it
also shuts down the fuel line itself using a solenoid valve.
The idea is that
without the transponder you can't deactivate the system
and
you have to
overcome 3 electrical circuits and the fuel circuit. It
works
well
because the solenoid valve and code verifaction electronics are
encased
in
a robust housing on the fuel line. It resisted a 15 minute attack
test
at
the regulatory test house in the UK which put it in the top
rankingof
theft
deterrents. This system can interact with Lo-Jack to shut
down the car
remotely. Its used quite widely on trucks in europe where
they can shut
down the truck if it deviates from the designated corridor, ie
its
stolen!
the other thing i remember is it was about $200 installed.
it's called a
Kosran ECV and i can find out more if anyone's
interested
ian
under repair 92 3000 VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:19:16
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: FW: Team3S: Carbotech Panther Pad Group Purchase
My understanding is
that there are several (liek three or four) conventions
(FMSI for one) for
describing or specifying the shape of the backer palte
and the pad
dimensions.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Lucius
[SMTP:stealthman92@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 3:18
PM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: FW: Team3S: Carbotech Panther Pad Group Purchase
>
>
Why does Carbotech assign part numbers to their brake pads that are
>
similar to the Porterfield part numbers? Is there some universal
> brake
pad ID code I haven't heard of? :) Or are these pads the same
>
products?
>
> Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com>
> -----
Original Message -----
> From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>
To: <
3sracers@speedtoys.com>;
"'Team3S'" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>;
>
"'Richard Garriott'" <
rgarriott@ncaustin.com>
> Cc:
<
anaimi@apple.com>; "'Andie W. Lin'"
<
andiewlin@yahoo.com>
>
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 1:23 PM
> Subject: FW: FW: Team3S:
Carbotech Panther Pad Group Purchase
>
> <snip>
> >
Here are the list prices that I was quoted by Andie at Carbotech.
> >
> > CT-383 $126.00 [Willis, Charles E.] rear 91-98 GT and
SL
> > CT-530 $126.00
[Willis, Charles E.] front 91-98 GT and SL
> > CT-531
$126.00 [Willis, Charles E.] 91-98 VR4 front
> > CT-532
$126.00 [Willis, Charles E.] 91-93 VR4 rear
> > CT-631
$126.00 [Willis, Charles E.] 94-98 VR4 rear
>
<snip>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:17:53
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Carbotech Panther brake pad
Jeff, I've been using the
Panther compound (which has the same lower limit
for temperature range) on
the street for about two years and the Plus
compound on the street for about
six months. I can compare the performance
to Metal Matrix pads - they brake
much better and dust less. The dust is
brown colored, and washed off the
wheels easily. They are not noisy on the
street like super metallic
PAGIDS. I haven't measured pad temperatures, but
I don't think 150
degreed F is difficult to develop - I think Hawk Blues
need to get up to 400
degrees, which is why they chunk if you use them on
the street.
Chuck
Willis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Lucius
[SMTP:stealthman92@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 3:12
PM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Team3S: Carbotech Panther brake pad
>
> I see from their
web site (
http://www.carbotecheng.com/ ) that
this
> pad is designed primarily for the track with a temp range
of
> 150-1300F. Has someone used these on the street? I really don't
have
> a feel for how hot pads get in casual stop and go city driving.
Or
> how quickly they heat up in a single stop (from 30 mph? from
80
> mph?). I assume these pads would still work below 150F, just have
a
> reduced coef-of-friction. Experiences?
>
> Can someone
compare these from personal experience to Porterfield
> street pads, EBC,
or Metal Matrix for street use? I currently have
> Axxis metal matrix pads
and would like to get a performance
> carbon-blend pad with less dust (or
maybe with silver dust to match
> my wheels?) that does not make noise -
not for the track, for the
> street.
>
> Thanks for any
replies.
>
> Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com>
> -----
Original Message -----
> From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>
To: <
3sracers@speedtoys.com>;
"'Team3S'" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>;
>
"'Richard Garriott'" <
rgarriott@ncaustin.com>
> Cc:
<
anaimi@apple.com>; "'Andie W. Lin'"
<
andiewlin@yahoo.com>
>
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 1:23 PM
> Subject: FW: FW: Team3S:
Carbotech Panther Pad Group Purchase
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:37:26
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
If you can't drive but three of 4
sessions without brake fade then you are
either using the wrong pad compound
or the wrong or old brake fluid.
Neither of these cast $1700, and if the
problem is the fluid, $1700 brakes
are not going to remedy that, unless you
changeout the fluid when you
replace the calipers.
Chuck
Willis
> I just want fade free brakes, and $1700 looks like a good
> compromise for driving 3 out of 4 seasons.
>
>
-MIHAI-
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 06:58:19
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
Not much to say..but I need to call em back
and see what progress is.
The MK4 supra is the first car to get the kit,
and I'll be able to get our
cars as well once those are complete.
Race
only..swap pads/rotors at the track. Street use will be
ugly
nasty...not recommended at all.
On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, MIHAI RAICU
wrote:
> Geoff,
>
> I searched the archives for the
carbon/carbon brake setup
> ($1700) talk you initiated ~1 month
ago. I can't find it.
> Can you comment anything on the
ceramic brakes you mentioned,
> the components included in the setup, and
why it will not
> work on the street. Can't I just warm up the
brakes a little
> every morning, and if I do this will they work if I
have to
> slam on the brakes 15 minutes later on the highway? What
> about heat resistance issues with the rest of the components
>
around the wheels like Roger Gerl mentioned?
>
> Maybe you hsve
seen the discussion between Roger Gerl, Jim
> Berry and I for the past 2
days.
>
> -MIHAI RAICU-
> 95 Red VR4
>
>
> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:09:33 -0700
> From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
> Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
> To: <
aa2345@wayne.edu>, <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>,
>
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
> you need to direct the questions to Geoff --- the
>
carbon/carbon
> setup was for rotors and pads only and it's not just a
matter
> or
> wiping the water off. Appearently the carbon absorbs
moisture
> and it must be driven out through heating of the rotor/pad
so
> for street use you would have to preheat them before you use
>
them --- on a track you can heat them on the warmup lap.
>
> Jim Berry
>
=========================================
Geoff Mohler
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:45:53
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
The way I drive I can get brake fade in one
day with Big Reds, Pagid
Orange pads, Motul 600 fluid, and SS lines. So
what am I doing wrong?
I employ left foot braking in nearly every turn
possible (stock engine,
stock suspension) and this tends to make the brake
pads work for 75% of
the course instead of about 25% using normal right foot
braking
techniques.
Heartland Park (where it was hot and might have
helped matters) I had
good brakes the first two or three sessions. By
the fourth I had fading
brakes (pedal would hit the floor but I was not
slowing down). The
brake pads were not cooling enough between
sessions. I admit I had to
remove the brake cooling ducts for an
alignment the week before but
what's up? I don't want to change the way
I drive since I am getting
used to is and I can kick some major butt.
Maybe I should try Andie's
wonder pad.
Is there a guarantee the
Carbotech will perform better than Pagid
Orange? Should I try
Porterfield's pads first? If I had a money-back
guarantee then I would
try Carbotech today. As it stands I am leaning
toward Porterfield since
they have been doing this for a lot longer it
seems and they can really back
up their pads with numbers, length of
time usable under normal conditions,
etc.
Can anyone step up and guarantee something like this? If so
then I will
definitely try them. If not then why should I try the
Carbotech anyway?
Looking for someone to throw their hat in the ring I
suppose.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4, Big Reds
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E.
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001
09:37
If you can't drive but three of 4 sessions without brake fade then
you
are
either using the wrong pad compound or the wrong or old brake
fluid.
Neither of these cast $1700, and if the problem is the fluid,
$1700
brakes
are not going to remedy that, unless you changeout the fluid
when you
replace the calipers.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:49:05
-0400
From: Michael Reid <
mreid@magma.ca>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 95
& 96 Stealth TT comparison
Hi,
At 04:10 PM 10/20/2001 -0400,
Joe Gonsowski wrote:
>I assume you are talking about the '91 and '97
missing #s. We know at least
>some of the missing #'s are actual
cars out there since one of the guys on
the
>3SI board owns one of the
missing VINs ('91 R/T TT).
We were also missing data on all 1995 Stealth
R/T Turbo's until Joe found a
way to fill that in and confirm the theory that
all of the missing were
Turbo's.
I'm not familiar with the confirmed
missing R/T Turbo, but Kevin Umbreit has
a 1991 R/T that's confirmed among
the missing.
>Mike Reid only has the
>missing sequence #'s and
therefore requires you to guess at the check digit
>which could be 0-9 or
X.
I've concluded that there IS a formula for calculating the check
digit.
I've figured
out about half of the formula so far. Something like:
the remainder when
divided by 11
of 2 x last-digit + 3 x 2nd-last-digit +
4 x 3rd last-digit.... If the
remainder
is 10 then use the letter
'X'.
There are as many formats for 3/S VINs as there are models. So for
1991
there are
7 formats: 4 for Stealth's and 3 for 3000GT's. So with a
list of missing
VINs, I
could run them through a program to generate the 7
different forms and try
each
of the 7 forms for each VIN.
I
wouldn't want to do this by hand for 3500 VINs times 7 forms of
course;
that's
24,500 VINs to check ! Unless it can be automated, we could
at least check a
random sampling to see the trend and models affected. BTW,
I've compiled some
monthly production data for each model, and in the 1991
model year it
appears that
most of the missing VINs were built before
Sept. 1990 and I think most or
all are
Stealths of all 4 models. About 70%
of the VINs before Sept. 1990 were
lost.
Regards,
Mike.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:04:08
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
Andie,
True it is not rally driving
ala Merritt but with a stock engine and
stock suspension I feel I have to
left foot brake in order to "keep up
with the boys."
With a stock
engine I do not get shot out of a corner like the guys with
a boost
controller. I have to maintain momentum like a N/A car or a
light,
nimble car that only has momentum on their side. Left foot
braking lets
me keep the turbos spooled up while still slowing down
enough for the
turn. It also keeps the pads hitting the rotors for 150
feet of the
turn instead of just 50 feet.
Brake cooling WAS in place until Sears had
to remove it to fix the
alignment. Honestly, I wanted the alignment to
be in shape for the
15-hour drive to Kansas rather than having good brake
cooling. I have
some pictures on my site and the second Beta test went
much better (did
not get ripped off in local street driving). Let me
find that page
again.
I don't think Geoff minds if I left foot
brake. He gets to sell me
fluid and pads so he wants to see me do this
more often than not. :)
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Andie W. Lin [mailto:andiewlin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 09:55
To:
dschilberg@pobox.comSubject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
You're being too hard on the track...is it
necessary to left-foot brake
all
the time? What kind of cooling do
you have for the brakes? I think the
problem is just left-foot braking
the car...it's a heavy car that can go
very fast...and you aren't rally
driving. :-)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:05:57
-0400
From: Michael Reid <
mreid@magma.ca>
Subject: Team3S: Missing
VINs in CAPS; Check digit formula
Hi,
At 04:10 PM 10/20/2001
-0400, Joe Gonsowski wrote:
>I assume you are talking about the '91 and
'97 missing #s. We know at least
>some of the missing #'s are actual
cars out there since one of the guys on
the
>3SI board owns one of the
missing VINs ('91 R/T TT).
We were also missing data on all 1995 Stealth
R/T Turbo's until Joe found a
way to fill that in and confirm the theory that
all of the missing 550 (and 3
more in the 000001-000100 range) were
Turbo's.
I'm not familiar with the confirmed missing R/T Turbo, but
someone I've
communicated
with has a 1991 R/T that's confirmed among the
missing.
>Mike Reid only has the
>missing sequence #'s and
therefore requires you to guess at the check digit
>which could be 0-9 or
X.
I've concluded that there IS a formula for calculating the check
digit.
I've figured
out about half of the formula so far. Something like:
the remainder when
divided by 11
of 2 x last-digit + 3 x 2nd-last-digit +
4 x 3rd last-digit.... If the
remainder
is 10 then use the letter 'X'. I'm
not sure yet how letters in the VIN are
handled,
but I'm sure that's
something simple.
AFAIK, this check digit formula is probably Mitsubishi
specific.
There are as many formats for 3/S VINs as there are models. So
for 1991
there are
7 formats: 4 for Stealth's and 3 for 3000GT's. So with
a list of missing
VINs, I
could run them through a program to generate the
7 different forms and try
each
of the 7 forms for each VIN.
I
wouldn't want to do this by hand for 3500 VINs times 7 forms of
course;
that's
24,500 VINs to check ! Unless it can be automated, we could
at least check a
random sampling to see the trend and models affected. BTW,
I've compiled some
monthly production data for each model, and in the 1991
model year it
appears that
most of the missing VINs were built before
Sept. 1990 and I think most or
all are
Stealths of all 4 models. About 70%
of the VINs before Sept. 1990 were
lost.
Regards,
Mike.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:18:36
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
> With a stock engine I do not get
shot out of a corner like
> the guys with a boost controller. I
have to maintain
> momentum like a N/A car or a light, nimble car that
only has
> momentum on their side. Left foot braking lets me keep
the
> turbos spooled up while still slowing down enough for the
>
turn. It also keeps the pads hitting the rotors for 150 feet
> of
the turn instead of just 50 feet.
If you come out of the corner in a gear
that puts you around 4000-4500 RPM
then the turbo lag should be short enough
to not matter - especially on
stock turbos. If the lag is too long,
then you should start accelerating
earlier so it is already pulling when you
come out of the corner and take
better advantage of the AWD.
Left foot
braking has got to be hard on the tranny and transfer case, which
are already
weak components on these cars. A stock clutch will be toast in
no time
as well.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:21:59
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
Here are the pictures. I think these
work better than any brake cooling
ducts I have seen for our cars. The
duct ends up about one inch from
the 12 o'clock position on the rotor.
I did not add the gutter
downspout to this picture but this will work on a
car that has been
lowered to the max also. Attaches near the axle
instead of the front of
the car which ounces up and down to much for those
stiff cars.
http://www.speedtoys.com/~dschilberg/cars/brakes/Brake_ducts/index.htm-
--Flash!
1995 VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:30:42
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
Come on, Matt -- That means you have never
tried this trick. Have a
friend with a stopwatch sit in the car and
time how long it takes to go
from a Stop sign, around a fairly tight corner,
to the next Stop sign
with and without left foot braking. Make it about
half a mile long.
Bet the left foot braking run is about half a second or
more faster.
When someone with a boost controller is right behind me (I
did not get
the chance to do follow-the-leader like others in our group of 5
VR-4s
at Heartland Park) then I am sure they would eat me alive out of a
turn
since ANY turbo lag is too much for me. <sneer> If I
can minimize it
then look at what happens.
Need I say again how I ran
the same times as an instructor on here WITH
a boost controller ... and the
same time as someone on here WITH
coilovers lowered to the max? I
thought every track racer said stock
suspension will always lose to a
suspension-modded car on the track or a
stock engine car will lose to a boost
controlled car.
Maybe they just weren't driving to the car's
potential. I don't want to
put them down since we were all driving hard
on the track. I think the
follow the leader guys were sticking together
instead of trying to pass
each other.
Sure I wore down brakes (thanks
Rich for loaning me that set when I got
down to backer plates) and bled lots
of fluid but isn't that what
driver's ed is all about? Learning the
potential of the car and getting
better and faster and more at home?
I
also found the limits of the braking system. Anyone can do this.
Go
down a street at 45 mph and while under throttle (or maintaining
it)
press the brake all the way down then let off the brake and press
it
again and again. The second time is harder and the third time is
nearly
impossible. Yep. I found out the hard way about
this. Once you use up
the vacuum inside the lines you have no more
assistance. It is like no
power-assist on the brakes then. Make
it real interesting when that
corner is approaching. I never would have
discovered this if I never
did left foot braking.
- --Flash!
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Monday, October 22,
2001 10:19
If you come out of the corner in a gear that puts you
around 4000-4500
RPM
then the turbo lag should be short enough to not
matter - especially on
stock turbos. If the lag is too long, then you
should start
accelerating
earlier so it is already pulling when you come
out of the corner and
take
better advantage of the AWD.
Left foot
braking has got to be hard on the tranny and transfer case,
which
are
already weak components on these cars. A stock clutch will be
toast
in
no time as well.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:25:04
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: RE:English v English
At 01:30 AM 10/22/01 -0400, Darren Schilberg
wrote:
>There was a line on here about a year ago about someone in Ireland
(or
>perhaps our only VR-4 Irish owner) and their "bonnet lock and/or
boot
>lock" (a hood is a bonnet and a trunk is a boot in the states).
Years ago, I wrote for Motoring News in the UK, reporting on race and
rally
events in the U.S. They paid me with cheques in pounds sterling (about
$15
per story, as I recall). I noticed that they changed my words
from
English to Brit, as Flash described: Hood became bonnet, trunk became
boot,
gas became petrol, tires became tyres, rally became rallye, and so on.
I can take a hint, I thought, so the next story I submitted I wrote in
Brit.
The editors dutifully changed boot to trunk, bonnet to hood, and
so on,
just to show me who was boss. One does not second guess a Brit editor.
Sigh. Nostalgia just isn't what it used to be.
Rich/ye olde
poope
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:43:56
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
Flash, I think you answered your own
question.
If you're going to use the brakes like that, you're going to
have to have
some active method for cooling them, like ducts or Rich's water
spray.
I nursed the remainder of the "Wonder Pads" though an entire DE
last
weekend, including my best lap time Diana has documented
(2:10:05). That
wasn't my fastest session. Lost my pit crew to
the shopping mall, so I
wasn't able to get pyrometer reading (BTW, the
pyrometer IS working).
Have you replaced the splash guard extension in
the front wheel wells with
hardware cloth yet? It really helps air flow
through there. BTW, I am not
doing any cooldown for brakes following the
session, except once when I
smoked a tire. Also, I broke my own rule
and ran the last three DE WITHOUT
bleeding the brakes. This was a
matter of time available, not choice (2 DE
were on successive weekends, and
the last month has been unusually hectic).
Chuck Willis
P.S.
Looking forward to a '93 Stealth coming to the December DE at TWS,
also a
definite maybe from Jim Floyd.
> -----Original Message-----
>
From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> Sent: Monday, October
22, 2001 8:46 AM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
>
> The way I drive I can
get brake fade in one day with Big Reds, Pagid
> Orange pads, Motul 600
fluid, and SS lines. So what am I doing wrong?
>
> I employ
left foot braking in nearly every turn possible (stock engine,
> stock
suspension) and this tends to make the brake pads work for 75% of
> the
course instead of about 25% using normal right foot braking
>
techniques.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:48:30
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
> Come on, Matt -- That means you have
never tried this trick.
> Have a friend with a stopwatch sit in the
car and time how
> long it takes to go from a Stop sign, around a fairly
tight
> corner, to the next Stop sign with and without left foot
>
braking. Make it about half a mile long. Bet the left foot
>
braking run is about half a second or more faster.
Yes, I have.
I've been autocrossing for years and I know all about the
left-foot-braking
trick. Using the proper lines for a turbo AWD car and
early
acceleration is just as effective if done right (and consistently).
I
used to do it in my Eclipse GSX until the tranny was destroyed (stripped
the
primary gears completely off the shafts).
I can't do it in the
Spyder regardless because its making enough power that
it can spin the clutch
against the counterforce of the brakes, and other
than the obvious problems
with that it really stinks up the car something
fierce.
- -Matt
'95
3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:45:35
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: Left foot braking
At 10:30 AM 10/22/01 -0400, Darren
Schilberg wrote:
>Come on, Matt -- That means you have never tried this
trick. Have a
>friend with a stopwatch sit in the car and time how
long it takes to go
>from a Stop sign, around a fairly tight corner, to
the next Stop sign
>with and without left foot braking. Make it
about half a mile long.
>Bet the left foot braking run is about half a
second or more faster.
>
I can't heel and toe with normal braking on my
right foot, so I wonder how
Flash manages to brake and clutch with his left
foot.
Let's see, the heel of his left foot is on the brake, and he depresses
the
clutch with the toe...or is it the other way around? Maybe he doesn't
use
the clutch at all to downshift?
I give up. Flash, how DO you
downshift when you are hard on the brakes with
your left
foot?
Rich
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:56:41
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
Well I ran two DEs in the Northeast without
brake cooling and did my
standard left foot braking moves (Mid-Ohio in April
and Watkins Glen in
May). These air temps were in the mid 60s and 70s,
respectively, so
nothing like the 100-degree temps at Kansas.
Remember
how Rich and I had water temps that would creep toward the Red
zone but if we
drove in 3rd gear and higher (not going to 2nd on the
tight turns) then the
temps came back down? I never had that problem up
here since it is just
enough cooler.
Brake pads would fade a little but only toward the end of
the 20-minute
session. Same thing for the next session, etc. At
Kansas I would have
fade in the 4th lap of the next session then have to baby
it until they
came back again. Brake ducts would have only helped them
last 2-3 times
as long but still would have faded I am sure.
Just
looking for some advice on it Pagid Orange weren't made for this
(what is
their max good temp?), if Porterfield/Carbotech are the
recommended upgrade
and if so which one is better? Anyone recommend
putting a Porterfield
on the front left and a Carbotech on the front
right to REALLY hammer home
the match-up? Measure them after each event
and see who wins in the
head-to-head battle.
Andie -- you up for donating a set or selling them
at a discount for
this? Ready to step up to the plate and really stand
behind your
product? If not then I think I'll opt for the carbon/carbon
setup and
you'll lose my money. Don't think you would have anything to
lose,
really.
- --Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Willis, Charles E.
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:44
Flash, I
think you answered your own question.
If you're going to use the brakes
like that, you're going to have to
have
some active method for cooling
them, like ducts or Rich's water spray.
I nursed the remainder of the
"Wonder Pads" though an entire DE last
weekend, including my best lap time
Diana has documented (2:10:05).
That
wasn't my fastest session. Lost
my pit crew to the shopping mall, so I
wasn't able to get pyrometer reading
(BTW, the pyrometer IS working).
Have you replaced the splash guard
extension in the front wheel wells
with
hardware cloth yet? It
really helps air flow through there. BTW, I am
not
doing any cooldown for
brakes following the session, except once when I
smoked a tire. Also, I
broke my own rule and ran the last three DE
WITHOUT
bleeding the
brakes. This was a matter of time available, not choice (2
DE
were
on successive weekends, and the last month has been
unusually
hectic).
Chuck Willis
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:04:20
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
I sit corrected. You have a
highly-modded car. Just try it in a stock
engine/suspension car on a
road track or maybe we can meet halfway
(Chicago?) and run some
tests.
I accelerate early to the point of the early apex. Any
earlier and I
understeer and plow right off the road (in-car footage of me
running off
the gators at Turn 5 Heartland Park of that for proof).
Thus the
compromise.
I did this also in Autocross where it works well
but you use up that
brake vacuum again (more video footage as proof).
To remedy that you
have to let up on the throttle so the vacuum is reinstated
then you have
brakes again.
But on the road track it is not the proper
line as much as it is losing
turbo spool. The one I liked at Heartland
Park was Turn 3 (classic
right-hander) that came after the carousel of Turn
2. If you have large
brass ones you could take this flat out. I
could not since my car would
pitch too much. Thus I would left foot
brake to settle the car forward
and trail brake a little so it settled more
gently as it rolled to the
left ... still on the throttle in turbo
range. Slowly release the brake
and zoom I got toward Turn 5 (same
thing) then zoom to Turn 6. Just so
much more fun than not left foot
braking through here. Line didn't
matter since there was only one good
way through those two turns.
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001
10:49
Yes, I have. I've been autocrossing for years and I
know all about the
left-foot-braking trick. Using the proper lines for
a turbo AWD car and
early acceleration is just as effective if done right
(and
consistently). I
used to do it in my Eclipse GSX until the
tranny was destroyed (stripped
the
primary gears completely off the
shafts).
I can't do it in the Spyder regardless because its making enough
power
that
it can spin the clutch against the counterforce of the brakes,
and other
than the obvious problems with that it really stinks up the
car
something
fierce.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:13:02
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Ceramic brakes?
> I sit corrected. You have a
highly-modded car. Just try it
> in a stock engine/suspension car
on a road track or maybe we
> can meet halfway (Chicago?) and run some
tests.
Nah, my car is too rare to toss it off a corner at 140 MPH - which
I'm sure
I'd manage to accomplish before the day was over. They won't
let me
roadrace up here in it anyway since I don't have a solid roof or a
rollcage
(and I'm not installing one since I'd rarely race it anyways).
I'm already
illegal for drag racing as well, but they haven't stopped me yet
(I don't
think those guys realize the car is a convertible).
If
LF-braking works for you then that's cool... There are downsides to
it
though (hard on motor, hard on clutch, hard on tranny, and more
obviously
(as you are well aware) hard on brakes). But hey, any racing
is harder on a
car than driving on the street. :-)
-
-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:13:02
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: RE: Left foot braking
Rich ... heel and toe has nothing to do
with the left foot. It is all
right foot magic. Left foot is on
the clutch and the dead pedal. Right
foot is on the brake and gas pedal
(every foot gets two pedals).
1. Brake with the flat of your right foot
to get solid brake pressure.
2. Keep the ball of your right foot on the brake
pedal and pivot your
right foot counter-clockwise so the ball of your right
foot is over the
gas pedal.
3. Push in the clutch with the left
foot.
4. Blip the throttle with the ball of the right foot (optional
or
dependant on the type of turn you have coming up and how many gears
you
are downshifting).
5. Let out the clutch with the left foot while
still braking with the
ball of the right foot (or the brake is being released
now).
6. Clutch out. Brake off. Moderate throttle on. Turn
in. Full
throttle on.
Sounds more confusing than it really
is. Dare I say one time when I
forgot I was supposed to heel and toe at
Turn 1 Heartland Park and was
left foot braking instead? Jeezus.
I had to switch my right foot to
the brake pedal that the left foot was
pressing down, move the left foot
to the clutch, pivot the ball of the right
foot to the gas, and then I
was back "home." Yeah. Oops.
Didn't make THAT mistake again.
Mind you ... this is with stock
pedals. Those dinky, undersized things.
And race shoes. Those
foot-hugging, not-very-wide things.
Come on ... I'm not THAT good of a
driver that I can do these things, am
I? Don't others do this
stuff? Maybe it is the years of British
Touring Car and ESPN and
Speedvision that give me the camera views to
watch the pro drivers do
this. When I do it I still feel jerky. They
do double-clutching
and heel and toe as fast as I power shift from third
to fourth. Now
THOSE guys are good.
Beats me. Just ask Mr. Willis. He's the
only one who has ridden with
me so far on a track. What was his comment
after exiting the car?
Something to the tune of, "I'm impressed/surprised at
how solid you make
the car feel with stock suspension." Do I need to
start teaching
classes or something?
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Merritt
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001
10:46
I can't heel and toe with normal braking on my right foot, so
I wonder
how
Flash manages to brake and clutch with his left
foot.
Let's see, the heel of his left foot is on the brake, and he
depresses
the
clutch with the toe...or is it the other way around? Maybe
he doesn't
use
the clutch at all to downshift?
I give up. Flash,
how DO you downshift when you are hard on the brakes
with
your left
foot?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:17:36
-0700
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Ceramic brakes?
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Darren
Schilberg <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
> The
way I drive I can get brake fade in one day with Big Reds, Pagid
> Orange
pads, Motul 600 fluid, and SS lines. So what am I doing wrong?
It's
simple --- you're overdriving your brakes --- In the book Going Faster one
of
the showroom stock guys explained his mindset --- he drives with about
50% of
the brake capacity, if he doesn't, he gets to go home early. He trail
brakes
to get his speed down as much as possible using limited braking and
accelerates later so he can maintain more speed before the apex --- he
keeps
it at the limits of traction at all times before the apex rather than
accelerating
to the apex.
Left foot braking is fine for AutoX because
of the limited track time but you
better plan on having a $5000 setup for our
4000# car in a road track
situation [ you need --- 6 pot AP's, water,blowers
and brake fluid recirculation ]
Brake management is just as important as
traction management ---- if it
were a race it doesn't do any good to go
faster than hell for three laps and
then take two laps off too cool your
brakes.
>
> Heartland Park (where it was hot and might have
helped matters) I had
> good brakes the first two or three sessions.
By the fourth I had fading
> brakes (pedal would hit the floor but I was
not slowing down
That's a fluid issue and there is no rotor or pad
combination that will cure
that problem. Water, forced air, fluid
recirculation on the caliper or a
modified driving style is required --- see
above.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#652
***************************************