Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth  Thursday, September 6 2001  Volume 01 : Number 603




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:36:01 -0700
From: Robert Koch <eK2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution

Since I am in the Q.C. department of a big "Aerospace" company I feel it is
my duty to add to this........If we handled our customers in this manner we
would be cut off.....the FAA would shut us down and I would be making cover
plates as a full time job. These are brake rotors.....I couldn't think of
anything more important than this when it comes to track time or even
driving to work for that matter. I cheeped out with the "bradi cross
drilled" I stumbled on ebay.....all and good for me...300 shipped to my
door. I do notice a big diff in the stopping but only on shucks lifetime
pads. I want the best then budget comes in...as I hear it the best might
not be the best unless your lucky............1/100 ?

What those rotor people need to understand is this....and you may tear me
up on it if you must but without a doubt it is unequivocally true.------You
can't inspect quality into a part.

Bob K.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Berry [SMTP:fastmax@home.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:02 AM
To: Willis, Charles E.; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution

My 2c --- Porterfields response is BS. I can buy Chinese made rotors for
$45
or so and I would expect some quality problems, however when I pay a
premium
price I expect a premium product. I shouldn't be expected to run a QA
analysis
on a product when I buy it.

I fully agree with Mr. Willis ---- Quality is the responsibly of the
seller, they should
verify vendor quality and if it's not acceptable find another vendor. They
sure as
hell shouldn't ship me an inferior product and then say --- it's not my job
- ---.

I usually order my rotors when I need them [ If I wanted it tomorrow I'd
order it
tomorrow ], having to check quality and then send it back for replacement
is
not an option.

        Jim Berry

Geoff --- feel free to forward this to Porterfield and feel free to mention
the next
             set of rotors will require some thinking --- before this
thread I just
             assumed I would get Porterfields.
==========================================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Willis, Charles E. <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution


> In PROACTIVE companies, QC is transparent to customers because they
seldom
> receive flawed products.  QC systems can be set up to SPOT CHECK products
> without checking 100% of the rotors received.  If Porterfield doesn't
check
> the products it receives from it's vendors, and just tranships them to
it's
> customers, then Porterfield is acting as little more than a MIDDLEMAN,
with
> little value added.
>
> Not just slamming Porterfield, it's not a perfect world, stuff happens.
 But
> it's pretty irresponsible to rely on customer complaints as the primary
> means of detecting flawed products
>
> Chuck.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:50 AM
> > To: Willis, Charles E.
> > Cc: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
> >
> > They are considering this.
> >
> > Being as they ship hundreds of sets of rotors per day, this isnt
possible.
> >
> > FEEDBACK from customers is what does cause checking of specific types &
> > situations however.  The track record from thier casting/machining
vendors
> > is pretty clean.
> >
> > Ive had a few of you with warp issues (my sincere regrets), and one
person
> > got the right BOX, but some other type of rotor in it (from another
> > mailing list).  Thats all ive had in about $23,000 in orders this year
so
> > far.
> >
> > On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps Porterfield should consider checking the runout on the rotors
> > they
> > > receive from the people who make the rotors before accepting the
> > shipment.
> > >
> > > Some might call it Quality Control ...

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:52:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution

All due respect, but the expectations of a regulated and inspected
industry cannot be compared to a non-regulated retail venture.

On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Robert Koch wrote:

> Since I am in the Q.C. department of a big "Aerospace" company I feel it is
> my duty to add to this........If we handled our customers in this manner we
> would be cut off.....the FAA would shut us down and I would be making cover
> plates as a full time job. These are brake rotors.....I couldn't think of
> anything more important than this when it comes to track time or even
> driving to work for that matter. I cheeped out with the "bradi cross
> drilled" I stumbled on ebay.....all and good for me...300 shipped to my
> door. I do notice a big diff in the stopping but only on shucks lifetime
> pads. I want the best then budget comes in...as I hear it the best might
> not be the best unless your lucky............1/100 ?
>
> What those rotor people need to understand is this....and you may tear me
> up on it if you must but without a doubt it is unequivocally true.------You
> can't inspect quality into a part.
>
> Bob K.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Berry [SMTP:fastmax@home.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:02 AM
> To: Willis, Charles E.; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
>
> My 2c --- Porterfields response is BS. I can buy Chinese made rotors for
> $45
> or so and I would expect some quality problems, however when I pay a
> premium
> price I expect a premium product. I shouldn't be expected to run a QA
> analysis
> on a product when I buy it.
>
> I fully agree with Mr. Willis ---- Quality is the responsibly of the
> seller, they should
> verify vendor quality and if it's not acceptable find another vendor. They
> sure as
> hell shouldn't ship me an inferior product and then say --- it's not my job
> ---.
>
> I usually order my rotors when I need them [ If I wanted it tomorrow I'd
> order it
> tomorrow ], having to check quality and then send it back for replacement
> is
> not an option.
>
>         Jim Berry
>
> Geoff --- feel free to forward this to Porterfield and feel free to mention
> the next
>              set of rotors will require some thinking --- before this
> thread I just
>              assumed I would get Porterfields.
> ==========================================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Willis, Charles E. <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
> To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:01 AM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
>
>
> > In PROACTIVE companies, QC is transparent to customers because they
> seldom
> > receive flawed products.  QC systems can be set up to SPOT CHECK products
> > without checking 100% of the rotors received.  If Porterfield doesn't
> check
> > the products it receives from it's vendors, and just tranships them to
> it's
> > customers, then Porterfield is acting as little more than a MIDDLEMAN,
> with
> > little value added.
> >
> > Not just slamming Porterfield, it's not a perfect world, stuff happens.
>  But
> > it's pretty irresponsible to rely on customer complaints as the primary
> > means of detecting flawed products
> >
> > Chuck.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:50 AM
> > > To: Willis, Charles E.
> > > Cc: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> > > Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
> > >
> > > They are considering this.
> > >
> > > Being as they ship hundreds of sets of rotors per day, this isnt
> possible.
> > >
> > > FEEDBACK from customers is what does cause checking of specific types &
> > > situations however.  The track record from thier casting/machining
> vendors
> > > is pretty clean.
> > >
> > > Ive had a few of you with warp issues (my sincere regrets), and one
> person
> > > got the right BOX, but some other type of rotor in it (from another
> > > mailing list).  Thats all ive had in about $23,000 in orders this year
> so
> > > far.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
> > >
> > > > Perhaps Porterfield should consider checking the runout on the rotors
> > > they
> > > > receive from the people who make the rotors before accepting the
> > > shipment.
> > > >
> > > > Some might call it Quality Control ...

*New & Improved: http://www.speedtoys.com *


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:39:37 -0500
From: "cody" <overclck@starband.net>
Subject: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

Got a question. 

With all this about Porterfield, I am kinda having second thoughts.  I
am ready to spend about $800 on rotors / pads / SS brake lines for my
car for all 4 corners.  

Mine is a FWD, so what should I do?  Chances are - it will be a few
weeks between the time I install them, and the actual time that I use
them, because my car is reaching its final stages, but just isn't there
yet. 

Any suggestions??? 

- -Cody


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:40:18 -0500
From: "Trevor James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution

I've got PF plain cryoed rotors and R4-S pads on my Stealth. No warping
whatsoever. Just wanted to offset all of this negative feedback for PF.

Trevor
96 R/T TT
11.82@116.1
93 Octane and Plain Radials
97 VR-4
Bone Stock

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
Cc: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution


> Oskar:
>
> Im sorry it didnt, but anytime I have an issue (or someone I sell to does)
> Im on the phone with Mark and Tim instantly.
>
> I'll do whatever I can while I have those contacts to help anyone out
> whether I sold em or not.  You guys are the people I race and BS with, so
> thats my vested interest.
>
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Oskar wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately for some of us - the "FEEDBACK" system did not work so
well
> > about 18 months ago.  I bought my first set of cryo'd Porterfield rotors
> > then.  I put them on the car the night before going to the track.
> > Immediately upon pulling out of the driveway I noticed the warping.  It
was
> > Friday evening, and the people at Porterfield were done working.  Since
I
> > had prepaid for the track day, and the hotel and such I decided to go
> > anyway.
> >
> > Back home I called up Porterfield to discuss the matter.  I was told
that I
> > must have installed them incorrectly - and that it was my fault.  There
was
> > not even a hint of customer service attitude in the people I spoke with.
As
> > a matter of fact, I was told that Tim would call me back to discuss the
> > matter.  That didn't happen.  When I finally tracked him down he matter
of
> > factly told me that I should NOT have used or turned the rotors, and
instead
> > returned them to Porterfield for inspection.  He showed no compassion
about
> > my situation with an already paid for track event.  He also made it
known
> > that  they had never heard of this type of problem.
> >
> > Do not mis-construe this for whining - I am just telling how I was
treated
> > by Porterfield.  I am glad that they have improved their "customer
service".
> >
> > My second set of cryo'd rotors were purchased this spring.  I already
wrote
> > this list about what happened with those.  A quick synopsis:  I had a
shop
> > measure runout prior to installing - 0.0002.  After installing they
warped
> > the first time I stepped on the brakes while going over 60 MPH.  I
followed
> > the break-in instructions.  Previous stops at lower speeds did not
indicate
> > warpage.  I had them turned before the track event and they worked
> > flawlessly.  (turning cost me $81.00 as I did not have the time to
remove
> > them from the car.  The only shop that could do it while I was not
working
> > was the Mitsu garage.)  Burned from my previous experience with the
customer
> > service professionals at Porterfield I have not contacted them about
this
> > problem.
> >
> > Oskar
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
> > To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:01 AM
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
> >
> >
> > > In PROACTIVE companies, QC is transparent to customers because they
seldom
> > > receive flawed products.  QC systems can be set up to SPOT CHECK
products
> > > without checking 100% of the rotors received.  If Porterfield doesn't
> > check
> > > the products it receives from it's vendors, and just tranships them to
> > it's
> > > customers, then Porterfield is acting as little more than a MIDDLEMAN,
> > with
> > > little value added.
> > >
> > > Not just slamming Porterfield, it's not a perfect world, stuff
happens.
> > But
> > > it's pretty irresponsible to rely on customer complaints as the
primary
> > > means of detecting flawed products
> > >
> > > Chuck.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:50 AM
> > > > To: Willis, Charles E.
> > > > Cc: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> > > > Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
> > > >
> > > > They are considering this.
> > > >
> > > > Being as they ship hundreds of sets of rotors per day, this isnt
> > possible.
> > > >
> > > > FEEDBACK from customers is what does cause checking of specific
types &
> > > > situations however.  The track record from thier casting/machining
> > vendors
> > > > is pretty clean.
> > > >
> > > > Ive had a few of you with warp issues (my sincere regrets), and one
> > person
> > > > got the right BOX, but some other type of rotor in it (from another
> > > > mailing list).  Thats all ive had in about $23,000 in orders this
year
> > so
> > > > far.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Perhaps Porterfield should consider checking the runout on the
rotors
> > > > they
> > > > > receive from the people who make the rotors before accepting the
> > > > shipment.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some might call it Quality Control ...

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:42:34 -0600
From: "Floyd, Jim" <Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution

You must build in quality using in process manufacturing tracking
techniques.
You can not inspect in quality, only find mistakes.

I know, I know - I'm preaching to the choir.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E. [mailto:cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:02 AM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution


In PROACTIVE companies, QC is transparent to customers because they seldom
receive flawed products.  QC systems can be set up to SPOT CHECK products
without checking 100% of the rotors received.  If Porterfield doesn't check
the products it receives from it's vendors, and just tranships them to it's
customers, then Porterfield is acting as little more than a MIDDLEMAN, with
little value added.

Not just slamming Porterfield, it's not a perfect world, stuff happens.  But
it's pretty irresponsible to rely on customer complaints as the primary
means of detecting flawed products

Chuck.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:50 AM
> To: Willis, Charles E.
> Cc: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
>
> They are considering this.
>
> Being as they ship hundreds of sets of rotors per day, this isnt possible.
>
> FEEDBACK from customers is what does cause checking of specific types &
> situations however.  The track record from thier casting/machining vendors
> is pretty clean. 
>
> Ive had a few of you with warp issues (my sincere regrets), and one person
> got the right BOX, but some other type of rotor in it (from another
> mailing list).  Thats all ive had in about $23,000 in orders this year so
> far.
>
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
>
> > Perhaps Porterfield should consider checking the runout on the rotors
> they
> > receive from the people who make the rotors before accepting the
> shipment.
> >
> > Some might call it Quality Control ...
> >

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 10:40:03 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the quality of stock rotors. So what
would be wrong in taking a stock rotor to a local cryogenic place?  I can
get the treatment done for $19.95 per rotor locally (crogenic engineering,
www.cryoeng.com). They even do brake pads for $2.50!!! Stock rotors are $90
+ $20 for treatment, so that's $110 per rotor, and no shipping.

What's wrong with this picture?

Rich


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 10:44:59 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution

> He also made it known
>that  they had never heard of this type of problem.
>
They teach this attitude at customer service school, especially for
software. Whenever you call with a problem, you are always the ONLY one who
has ever had this problem.

My wife is a bankruptcy lawyer, and she had all kinds of problems with a
software package. The helpful customer service reps (CSRs) worked her
through the solution to every problem, clucking the entire time that she
was the only customer reporting such problems. She went to a bankruptcy
conference and asked the assembled multitudes if anyone had experienced the
same software problem -- hundreds of hands went up.

So, whenever anyone tells you that you are the only one with such a
problem, realize that they are probably lying to you.
Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:08:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

Its mostly FUD, but there is truth to the problems people had.

The problems have been communicated, and they are checking my orders at my
request (I ask Wendy reallly nice coz shes nice to talk to).  They have
been listening to us.

On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, cody wrote:

> Got a question. 
>
> With all this about Porterfield, I am kinda having second thoughts.  I
> am ready to spend about $800 on rotors / pads / SS brake lines for my
> car for all 4 corners.  
>
> Mine is a FWD, so what should I do?  Chances are - it will be a few
> weeks between the time I install them, and the actual time that I use
> them, because my car is reaching its final stages, but just isn't there
> yet. 
>
> Any suggestions??? 
>
> -Cody

*New & Improved: http://www.speedtoys.com *

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:58:57 -0500
From: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

For street driving I have been using Stillen X-drilled rotors, and Metal
Matrix pads.  This was a vast improvement over my stock rotors/pads.  I
installed all at the same time along with SS lines, so it all contributed to
the improvement.

The Stillen rotors are also nice in that they are plated, so they do not
rust.  Very nice up here in Minnesota.  They also have a high magnetism with
people - these rotors look nice and are always noticed by people checking
out the car.  Keep down the flames people - not everyone wants the race
stuff.  This is just a factual statement.

Now, take note of this.  These rotors do not hold up for open tracking in
these cars.  In 1999 I broke one of these while at Brainerd International
Raceway.  The right front rotor totally separated itself from the hub.

Oskar
temporarily without a Stealth

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "cody" <overclck@starband.net>
To: "Team3S" <team3s@mail.speedtoys.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:39 AM
Subject: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...


> Got a question.
>
> With all this about Porterfield, I am kinda having second thoughts.  I
> am ready to spend about $800 on rotors / pads / SS brake lines for my
> car for all 4 corners.
>
> Mine is a FWD, so what should I do?  Chances are - it will be a few
> weeks between the time I install them, and the actual time that I use
> them, because my car is reaching its final stages, but just isn't there
> yet.
>
> Any suggestions???
>
> -Cody

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:19:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

> The Stillen rotors are also nice in that they are plated, so they do not
> rust.  Very nice up here in Minnesota.  They also have a high magnetism with
> people - these rotors look nice and are always noticed by people checking
> out the car.  Keep down the flames people - not everyone wants the race
> stuff.  This is just a factual statement.
- ---
Ya..cad plating does look cool.
 
> Now, take note of this.  These rotors do not hold up for open tracking in
> these cars.  In 1999 I broke one of these while at Brainerd International
> Raceway.  The right front rotor totally separated itself from the hub.
- ---
Were you the guy that melted a set of MM pads too?


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:14:30 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: tapping is making me crazy

If you go to the Search Page and enter  lifter +tap, you will get 118
references to past discussions; if you enter  lifter +tick, you will get 58
more.  When you get all that information from the archives, we would welcome
your writing a summation for the FAQ Pages.

www.Team3S.com/Search.htm

Best,

Forrest

> > From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> Theres tons of references.
>
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Peter Howey wrote:
>
> > Yes, I did.  There is nothing aboot lifter tapping in the FAQs.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Peter M. Howey
> > Manager of Information Systems
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> >
> > > Have you tries the team3s.com FAQ?
> > >
> > > On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Peter Howey wrote:
> > >
> > > > '94 Dodge Stealth RT.  tic tic tic tic
> > > >
> > > > This topic has probably been beaten to death.  Is there a "how the
hell
> > do I
> > > > get rid of the lifter tapping" FAQ somewhere?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Peter M. Howey

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:15:15 -0500
From: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

Good memory Jeff.

What pad compound was left dislodged from the backing plate.  The other side
showed about 1/4 compound left.   Since then I have been using R4 pads.

Oskar

- ----- Original Message ----- > ---
> Were you the guy that melted a set of MM pads too?
>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:28:02 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oskar [SMTP:osk@mediaone.net]
>
> The Stillen rotors are also nice in that they are plated, so they do not
> rust.  Very nice up here in Minnesota.  They also have a high magnetism
> with
> people - these rotors look nice and are always noticed by people checking
> out the car.  Keep down the flames people - not everyone wants the race
> stuff.  This is just a factual statement.
[Willis, Charles E.] 
Don't rust?  My Stillen Crossdrilled Sport rotors have (always had)
a ton of rust!  Do you ever touch the brake pedal or just have it trailered
around to show off?  That plating is about one atom thick.

> Now, take note of this.  These rotors do not hold up for open tracking in
> these cars.  In 1999 I broke one of these while at Brainerd International
> Raceway.  The right front rotor totally separated itself from the hub.
[Willis, Charles E.]  I assume you mean separated from the HAT.  I
drive all my track events with these rotors, except the homemade
crossdrilled stock ones I used to substitute in. [Willis, Charles E.]
There are all manner of brake failures for crossdrilled, slotted, cryoed,
heat-treated and stock (just ask Flash!).It is ludicrous to condemn a whole
product line just because you broke one. Oskar
> temporarily without a Stealth

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 09:18:09 -0700
From: Jim Elferdink <macintosh@sunra.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution

My two cents on the problem Porterfield had never heard of:

About a year ago I put Porterfield cryoed rotors on my 94 VR-4 along with a
set of new R4S pads, (with very careful mounting and torquing) took the car
out and warmed up the brakes with several medium stops from about 70. The
new pads were smokin' nicely and the brakes felt perfectly smooth. I drove
on the expressway for about 30 minutes to cool things down and then tried
stopping again. MAJOR vibration! Very warped new rotors!

I called Porterfield. They said it's unusual, but the heat cycle can warp
new  cryoed rotors--but have them turned and they should be stable after
that. I turned them--they had to take a pretty hefty cut to flatten 'em out,
about .014 in. as I recall--and they've been smooth as silk ever since
through about 10 track days, although I usually turn them after a weekend at
the track. However now they're about down to the minimum thickness, thanks
in no small part to that original warpage.

‹Jim Elferdink


> From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 10:44:59 -0500
> To: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>, <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
>
>> He also made it known
>> that  they had never heard of this type of problem.
>>
> They teach this attitude at customer service school, especially for
> software. Whenever you call with a problem, you are always the ONLY one who
> has ever had this problem.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:35:07 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

Lest we forget, all of us owners would be isolated and at the mercy of the
suppliers if people like Geoff didn't go out of their way to promote
communications among us and facillitate feedback to the vendors.

(not to mention the discounts!)

Thanks, Geoff!

Chuck Willis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:08 AM
> To: cody
> Cc: Team3S
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:33:27 -0500
From: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

> Don't rust?  My Stillen Crossdrilled Sport rotors have (always had)
> a ton of rust!  Do you ever touch the brake pedal or just have it
trailered
> around to show off?  That plating is about one atom thick.

I drive my car like I stole it.

If I let it sit long enough surface rust will develop on the brake surface,
but of course this is immediately gone the next time I touch the brakes.
The hat, and the parts of the rotor that are not touched by the brake pad
have absolutely no rust whatsoever.  This includes the outer edge of the
rotor as well.  Looks very nice!  Out of 365 days, there are only a few when
it is not humid, raining or snowing up here.

I did not measure the thickness of the plating :-)

> [Willis, Charles E.]  I assume you mean separated from the HAT.  I
> drive all my track events with these rotors, except the homemade
> crossdrilled stock ones I used to substitute in. [Willis, Charles E.]
> There are all manner of brake failures for crossdrilled, slotted, cryoed,
> heat-treated and stock (just ask Flash!).It is ludicrous to condemn a
whole
> product line just because you broke one.

Hmmm.. Comparing the amount of material connecting the rotor and the hat on
my Stllen rotors vs. stock I am not surprised at what happened.  I will not
ever consider using these at the track again.  The same goes for Metal
Matrix pads.

Maybe you and I have different Stillen rotors?  Mine were purchased in '98.
They are gold plated.  Replacements were purchased in '99 and they look
identical.

Oskar

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:36:21 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

> There are all manner of brake failures for crossdrilled,
> slotted, cryoed, heat-treated and stock (just ask Flash!).
> It is ludicrous to condemn a whole product line just
> because you broke one.

The problem is that Oskar isn't the only one who broke one.  Others were
broken similarly.  Also the PowerSlot rotors are made from the same blanks
as the Stillen rotors and they have also been broken.

They are BRAKES - they should be very reliable, especially a rotor sold as
being "Sport Rotors".  If anything on the car needs to work well every
single time you use it it needs to be the brakes.  To think broken rotors
are somehow okay strikes me as odd.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:55:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

I'll add to this that this may well be aggrivated by the surface defects
at the hub chamfer (bad word?) and any uneven hub face surfaces.

On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Jannusch, Matt wrote:

> > There are all manner of brake failures for crossdrilled,
> > slotted, cryoed, heat-treated and stock (just ask Flash!).
> > It is ludicrous to condemn a whole product line just
> > because you broke one.
>
> The problem is that Oskar isn't the only one who broke one.  Others were
> broken similarly.  Also the PowerSlot rotors are made from the same blanks
> as the Stillen rotors and they have also been broken.
>
> They are BRAKES - they should be very reliable, especially a rotor sold as
> being "Sport Rotors".  If anything on the car needs to work well every
> single time you use it it needs to be the brakes.  To think broken rotors
> are somehow okay strikes me as odd.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*New & Improved: http://www.speedtoys.com *

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:59:15 -0700
From: "BlackLight" <BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject: Team3S: Need a quick answer!! Please help!!

I just got my Intrax springs today and I am going to install them, but
which way do they go? One side of the spring looks more compressed than
the other (distance between spring spacing is smaller) so does the
tighter part go towards the top or bottom? Please help, I was on my way
out the door to get started when I noticed it.

Sorry for the direct post, but I need to know ASAP, sorry!! And thank
you for the help!!

Matt Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Net
www.BlackLight.5u.com


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:15:47 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

> I drive my car like I stole it.
>
> If I let it sit long enough surface rust will develop on the brake
> surface,
> but of course this is immediately gone the next time I touch the brakes.
> The hat, and the parts of the rotor that are not touched by the brake pad
> have absolutely no rust whatsoever.  This includes the outer edge of the
> rotor as well.   [Willis, Charles E.]  the vents and outer edge of my
> rotors are rusted just like any other, I agree there is less corrosion
> under the hat.

> I did not measure the thickness of the plating :-)
>
>
> Hmmm.. Comparing the amount of material connecting the rotor and the hat
> on
> my Stllen rotors vs. stock I am not surprised at what happened.  I will
> not
> ever consider using these at the track again.  The same goes for Metal
> Matrix pads.
[Willis, Charles E.] 
I think Metal Matrix pads are better than stock and adequate for
novices.  With increased braking, they last about two events (four days).
Considering the price, it's worth the investment for someone who doesn't
know whether they like this or not.

> Maybe you and I have different Stillen rotors?  Mine were purchased in
> '98.
> They are gold plated.  Replacements were purchased in '99 and they look
> identical. [Willis, Charles E.]    My son and I have been using these
> Sport rotors for four seasons, without a single separation of the hat.
> Oskar

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:28:59 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...

Somebody please tell me the manufacturer of an unbreakable, unwarpable brake
rotor!

>  To think broken rotors
> are somehow okay strikes me as odd.
>
[Willis, Charles E.]  I'm not saying it's okay, I'm saying it
happens.  What should make you unhappy is if it happens more frequently to
one product than another when you didn't do anything to aggravate the
heating or wear, like running your brake pads down to the backer plates, or
like after the machine shop turned them down below the minimum thickness. 

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:24:16 -0700
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: tapping is making me crazy

Buy a reputable oil flush product, follow directions, then drain the oil and
change the filter, put in Mobil 1 from then on. Should solve it. Follow the
same advise if it occurs again.  And if it does, you're not changing oil
often enough.

Best

Darc

snip>>>>>>
>
> > '94 Dodge Stealth RT.  tic tic tic tic

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:58:51 +0200
From: "Mikael Kenson" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Detect knock?

The best way to detect knock???

Just take 20 cm long 15mm copper pipe flatten it in one end and drill a 8mm hole thru the flatted end. Bolt it to one of the lower intake bolts between the cylinder banks. Go to your local hardware store and buy the cheapest ear covers (don't know the english word for it, But I think you know what I mean). connect a garden hose to the round end of the pipe, connect the other end to the ear covers (drill a hole and seal with silicone). Now you have the perfect knock monitor. Drive the car. You will for sure notice when knock beggins. This works 1000 times better than any knock sensor. Try it.

/Mikael Kenson
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stanton" <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
To: "Team3S Stealth" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 4:38 PM
Subject: Team3S: Detect knock?


> I'm about to install alcohol injection on my baby, but know that the
> desire to up boost is there, and I most likely will...
>
> So, for all those of you who can, how do you detect knock?  Knock meter,
> datalogging, etc?
>
> Thanks!
> Ken Stanton
> '91 Pearl White R/T TT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Detect knock?

I think I'll stick to my TMO and PocketLOGGER dataloggers for knock
detection (1991-1993 models). I think I would find it distracting to
wear "ear covers" with garden hoses attached. :)

But seriously, I would think it difficult for the average driver to
"process" the sounds heard and compare with piston compression events
happening 300 times a second (that's 6 cylinders each firing 50 times
a second at 6000 RPM).

For those that want to know what knock sounds like, check out the web
page below.

http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm

That link and many others are on the Tech Page at my web site.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- --- Mikael Kenson <vr4@bahnhof.se> wrote:
> The best way to detect knock???
>
> Just take 20 cm long 15mm copper pipe flatten it in one end and
> drill a 8mm hole thru the flatted end. Bolt it to one of the lower
> intake bolts between the cylinder banks. Go to your local hardware
> store and buy the cheapest ear covers (don't know the english word
> for it, But I think you know what I mean). connect a garden hose to
> the round end of the pipe, connect the other end to the ear covers
> (drill a hole and seal with silicone). Now you have the perfect
> knock monitor. Drive the car. You will for sure notice when knock
> beggins. This works 1000 times better than any knock sensor. Try
> it.
>
> /Mikael Kenson

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:39:07 -0400
From: Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Detect knock?

Thanks Jeff...

Say, how much does TMO/PLogger go for?
Would it be simpler/more cost effective to put just a knock meter in?

Thanks!
Ken

Jeff Lucius wrote:

> I think I'll stick to my TMO and PocketLOGGER dataloggers for knock
> detection (1991-1993 models). I think I would find it distracting to
> wear "ear covers" with garden hoses attached. :)
>
> But seriously, I would think it difficult for the average driver to
> "process" the sounds heard and compare with piston compression events
> happening 300 times a second (that's 6 cylinders each firing 50 times
> a second at 6000 RPM).
>
> For those that want to know what knock sounds like, check out the web
> page below.
>
> http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm
>
> That link and many others are on the Tech Page at my web site.
>
> Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com
>
> --- Mikael Kenson <vr4@bahnhof.se> wrote:
> > The best way to detect knock???
> >
> > Just take 20 cm long 15mm copper pipe flatten it in one end and
> > drill a 8mm hole thru the flatted end. Bolt it to one of the lower
> > intake bolts between the cylinder banks. Go to your local hardware
> > store and buy the cheapest ear covers (don't know the english word
> > for it, But I think you know what I mean). connect a garden hose to
> > the round end of the pipe, connect the other end to the ear covers
> > (drill a hole and seal with silicone). Now you have the perfect
> > knock monitor. Drive the car. You will for sure notice when knock
> > beggins. This works 1000 times better than any knock sensor. Try
> > it.
> >
> > /Mikael Kenson

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 15:52:09 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Detect knock?

> Say, how much does TMO/PLogger go for?
> Would it be simpler/more cost effective to put just a knock meter in?

TMO is $300, PocketLogger is $155, MSD Knock Alert is $140.

With the TMO you need a Windows-capable notebook PC, the PocketLogger
requires a Palm Computing device with serial cradle - so if you don't
already have one of those then add that to the cost.

MSD Knock Alert (what I'm going to be using once the car is back together)
doesn't datalog or anything - just has LED's and a buzzer basically.  If
there are other "knock meters" than that I'm not aware of them, but would
like to hear about any other alternatives.

http://www.tmo.com
http://www.pocketlogger.com
http://www.msdignition.com/1protool.htm#anchor168229

I'd say the TMO or PocketLogger is a way better way to go if they'll work on
your car ('91-93?).  You'll get much more useful information than using a
knock alert alone - and you'll see exactly what the ECU is seeing.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:55:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Detect knock?

The TMO cable and software have been $300 forever. I'm not sure where
to find that product anymore. http://www.tmo.com/ says they are out
of dataloggers at the top of their home page. Todd Day never
supported our cars anyway. 3S usage was always an afterthought.

The PocketLOGGER by digital tuning, inc. http://www.pocketlogger.com/
, is $155 plus you need a Palm handheld, ~$130 for the M100 I have.
Cable is included. I picked mine up used and am just starting to use
it. It does not have the nice graphical support the TMO has and logs
a max of 12 items. But it is VERY easy to use real time. dti is also
working on 1994-1995 version and OBDII. Mike Montalvo of dti is
genuinely interested in making loggers for ALL our models. I suggest
contacting him with support or suggestions.
http://www.pocketlogger.com/?page=contact
I think an owner has already donated a 1994 ECM to him.

From what I have heard from Team3S and 3SI members, independent knock
sensors still leave you wondering and really require "calibrating"
with a TMO/PL. Some folks suggest using timing retard to monitor
knock; but this can be problematic also.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- --- Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks Jeff...
>
> Say, how much does TMO/PLogger go for?
> Would it be simpler/more cost effective to put just a knock meter
> in?
>
> Thanks!
> Ken

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:39:04 -0400
From: Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Detect knock?

Thank you Jeff and Matt.  Excellent info!

I will be checking into all three options, and will let you know where I end up
going.  Thanks again!

Ken Stanton
'91 Pearl White R/T TT

Jeff Lucius wrote:

> The TMO cable and software have been $300 forever. I'm not sure where
> to find that product anymore. http://www.tmo.com/ says they are out
> of dataloggers at the top of their home page. Todd Day never
> supported our cars anyway. 3S usage was always an afterthought.
>
> The PocketLOGGER by digital tuning, inc. http://www.pocketlogger.com/
> , is $155 plus you need a Palm handheld, ~$130 for the M100 I have.
> Cable is included. I picked mine up used and am just starting to use
> it. It does not have the nice graphical support the TMO has and logs
> a max of 12 items. But it is VERY easy to use real time. dti is also
> working on 1994-1995 version and OBDII. Mike Montalvo of dti is
> genuinely interested in making loggers for ALL our models. I suggest
> contacting him with support or suggestions.
> http://www.pocketlogger.com/?page=contact
> I think an owner has already donated a 1994 ECM to him.
>
> >From what I have heard from Team3S and 3SI members, independent knock
> sensors still leave you wondering and really require "calibrating"
> with a TMO/PL. Some folks suggest using timing retard to monitor
> knock; but this can be problematic also.
>
> Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com
>
> --- Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Thanks Jeff...
> >
> > Say, how much does TMO/PLogger go for?
> > Would it be simpler/more cost effective to put just a knock meter
> > in?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Ken

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:41:55 -0500
From: "bdtrent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Trivia 2

You'll be the second to know.

Regards,
DaveT/92TT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: "bdtrent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Cc: "Team 3S" <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Trivia 2


> You'll be the first to know.
>
> On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, bdtrent wrote:
>
> > In the FWIW department, my 92TT has 36K and I'm still running the
original
> > timing belt.  I'm going to run one more track event in a couple weeks
before
> > putting the car up on the stands to dig in.  Hopefully it will hold up
for
> > one more run.
> >
> > Regards,
> > DaveT/92TT
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > NetZero Platinum
> > Only $9.95 per month!
> > Sign up in September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2!
> > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:19:38 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Keep them wheels clean kids

FWIW --- I've been messing with this on and off for the last
year and found it to be a reasonable solution to keeping your
wheels clean especially if you take your car to the track. A
couple of days at the track takes its toll on wheels, rubber and
brake dust abound along with excess quantities of heat.

After a thorough cleaning spray them completely with silicon
spray lubricant, let it dry and wipe off any excess. After 150
miles of track time at Willow springs I just wiped the brake
dust off with a rag [ both outside and the inside of the wheel ].

I did the same thing when the wheels were new and just wiped
them clean occasionally --- reapplication is required and that's
what I playing with now. I plan on spraying my track rims before
heading for the track --- It should be noted for any intellectually
challenged types, that keeping the silicon off the tire contact
surface is a must

        Jim Berry

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #603
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