Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, September 6 2001
Volume 01 : Number
603
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:36:01 -0700
From: Robert Koch <
eK2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
Since I am in the Q.C.
department of a big "Aerospace" company I feel it is
my duty to add to
this........If we handled our customers in this manner we
would be cut
off.....the FAA would shut us down and I would be making cover
plates as a
full time job. These are brake rotors.....I couldn't think of
anything more
important than this when it comes to track time or even
driving to work for
that matter. I cheeped out with the "bradi cross
drilled" I stumbled on
ebay.....all and good for me...300 shipped to my
door. I do notice a big
diff in the stopping but only on shucks lifetime
pads. I want the best then
budget comes in...as I hear it the best might
not be the best unless your
lucky............1/100 ?
What those rotor people need to understand is
this....and you may tear me
up on it if you must but without a doubt it is
unequivocally true.------You
can't inspect quality into a part.
Bob
K.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Berry
[SMTP:fastmax@home.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:02 AM
To:
Willis, Charles E.;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
My 2c --- Porterfields
response is BS. I can buy Chinese made rotors for
$45
or so and I would
expect some quality problems, however when I pay a
premium
price I expect
a premium product. I shouldn't be expected to run a QA
analysis
on a
product when I buy it.
I fully agree with Mr. Willis ---- Quality is the
responsibly of the
seller, they should
verify vendor quality and if it's
not acceptable find another vendor. They
sure as
hell shouldn't ship me
an inferior product and then say --- it's not my job
- ---.
I usually
order my rotors when I need them [ If I wanted it tomorrow I'd
order
it
tomorrow ], having to check quality and then send it back for replacement
is
not an option.
Jim
Berry
Geoff --- feel free to forward this to Porterfield and feel free to
mention
the
next
set of rotors will require some thinking --- before this
thread I
just
assumed I would get
Porterfields.
==========================================================
-
----- Original Message -----
From: Willis, Charles E. <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors
Resolution
> In PROACTIVE companies, QC is transparent to
customers because they
seldom
> receive flawed products. QC
systems can be set up to SPOT CHECK products
> without checking 100% of
the rotors received. If Porterfield doesn't
check
> the products
it receives from it's vendors, and just tranships them to
it's
>
customers, then Porterfield is acting as little more than a MIDDLEMAN,
with
> little value added.
>
> Not just slamming
Porterfield, it's not a perfect world, stuff happens.
But
> it's
pretty irresponsible to rely on customer complaints as the primary
> means
of detecting flawed products
>
> Chuck.
>
> >
-----Original Message-----
> > From: Geoff Mohler
[SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06,
2001 9:50 AM
> > To: Willis, Charles E.
> > Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st> >
Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
> >
> >
They are considering this.
> >
> > Being as they ship hundreds
of sets of rotors per day, this isnt
possible.
> >
> >
FEEDBACK from customers is what does cause checking of specific types
&
> > situations however. The track record from thier
casting/machining
vendors
> > is pretty clean.
> >
>
> Ive had a few of you with warp issues (my sincere regrets), and one
person
> > got the right BOX, but some other type of rotor in it
(from another
> > mailing list). Thats all ive had in about
$23,000 in orders this year
so
> > far.
> >
> >
On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
> >
> > >
Perhaps Porterfield should consider checking the runout on the rotors
>
> they
> > > receive from the people who make the rotors before
accepting the
> > shipment.
> > >
> > > Some
might call it Quality Control ...
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:52:41
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
All due respect, but the
expectations of a regulated and inspected
industry cannot be compared to a
non-regulated retail venture.
On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Robert Koch
wrote:
> Since I am in the Q.C. department of a big "Aerospace"
company I feel it is
> my duty to add to this........If we handled our
customers in this manner we
> would be cut off.....the FAA would shut us
down and I would be making cover
> plates as a full time job. These are
brake rotors.....I couldn't think of
> anything more important than this
when it comes to track time or even
> driving to work for that matter. I
cheeped out with the "bradi cross
> drilled" I stumbled on ebay.....all
and good for me...300 shipped to my
> door. I do notice a big diff in the
stopping but only on shucks lifetime
> pads. I want the best then budget
comes in...as I hear it the best might
> not be the best unless your
lucky............1/100 ?
>
> What those rotor people need to
understand is this....and you may tear me
> up on it if you must but
without a doubt it is unequivocally true.------You
> can't inspect
quality into a part.
>
> Bob K.
>
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Berry
[SMTP:fastmax@home.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:02
AM
> To: Willis, Charles E.;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
>
> My 2c ---
Porterfields response is BS. I can buy Chinese made rotors for
>
$45
> or so and I would expect some quality problems, however when I pay a
> premium
> price I expect a premium product. I shouldn't be
expected to run a QA
> analysis
> on a product when I buy
it.
>
> I fully agree with Mr. Willis ---- Quality is the
responsibly of the
> seller, they should
> verify vendor quality
and if it's not acceptable find another vendor. They
> sure as
>
hell shouldn't ship me an inferior product and then say --- it's not my job
> ---.
>
> I usually order my rotors when I need them [ If I
wanted it tomorrow I'd
> order it
> tomorrow ], having to check
quality and then send it back for replacement
> is
> not an
option.
>
> Jim
Berry
>
> Geoff --- feel free to forward this to Porterfield and
feel free to mention
> the
next
>
set of rotors will require some thinking --- before this
> thread I
just
>
assumed I would get Porterfields.
>
==========================================================
>
>
----- Original Message -----
> From: Willis, Charles E. <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:01 AM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped
Brake Rotors Resolution
>
>
> > In PROACTIVE companies,
QC is transparent to customers because they
> seldom
> > receive
flawed products. QC systems can be set up to SPOT CHECK products
>
> without checking 100% of the rotors received. If Porterfield doesn't
> check
> > the products it receives from it's vendors, and just
tranships them to
> it's
> > customers, then Porterfield is
acting as little more than a MIDDLEMAN,
> with
> > little value
added.
> >
> > Not just slamming Porterfield, it's not a
perfect world, stuff happens.
> But
> > it's pretty
irresponsible to rely on customer complaints as the primary
> > means
of detecting flawed products
> >
> > Chuck.
>
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Geoff
Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday,
September 06, 2001 9:50 AM
> > > To: Willis, Charles E.
> >
> Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st> >
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
> >
>
> > > They are considering this.
> > >
> >
> Being as they ship hundreds of sets of rotors per day, this isnt
>
possible.
> > >
> > > FEEDBACK from customers is what
does cause checking of specific types &
> > > situations
however. The track record from thier casting/machining
>
vendors
> > > is pretty clean.
> > >
> > >
Ive had a few of you with warp issues (my sincere regrets), and one
>
person
> > > got the right BOX, but some other type of rotor in it
(from another
> > > mailing list). Thats all ive had in about
$23,000 in orders this year
> so
> > > far.
> >
>
> > > On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
>
> >
> > > > Perhaps Porterfield should consider checking
the runout on the rotors
> > > they
> > > > receive
from the people who make the rotors before accepting the
> > >
shipment.
> > > >
> > > > Some might call it
Quality Control ...
*New & Improved:
http://www.speedtoys.com
*
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:39:37
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@starband.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
Got a question.
With all this
about Porterfield, I am kinda having second thoughts. I
am ready to
spend about $800 on rotors / pads / SS brake lines for my
car for all 4
corners.
Mine is a FWD, so what should I do? Chances
are - it will be a few
weeks between the time I install them, and the actual
time that I use
them, because my car is reaching its final stages, but just
isn't there
yet.
Any suggestions???
-
-Cody
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:40:18
-0500
From: "Trevor James" <
trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
I've got PF plain cryoed rotors
and R4-S pads on my Stealth. No warping
whatsoever. Just wanted to offset all
of this negative feedback for PF.
Trevor
96 R/T TT
11.82@116.193 Octane and Plain Radials
97
VR-4
Bone Stock
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler"
<
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To:
"Oskar" <
osk@mediaone.net>
Cc:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake
Rotors Resolution
> Oskar:
>
> Im sorry it didnt, but
anytime I have an issue (or someone I sell to does)
> Im on the phone with
Mark and Tim instantly.
>
> I'll do whatever I can while I have
those contacts to help anyone out
> whether I sold em or not. You
guys are the people I race and BS with, so
> thats my vested
interest.
>
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Oskar wrote:
>
> >
Unfortunately for some of us - the "FEEDBACK" system did not work
so
well
> > about 18 months ago. I bought my first set of
cryo'd Porterfield rotors
> > then. I put them on the car the
night before going to the track.
> > Immediately upon pulling out of
the driveway I noticed the warping. It
was
> > Friday evening,
and the people at Porterfield were done working. Since
I
> >
had prepaid for the track day, and the hotel and such I decided to go
>
> anyway.
> >
> > Back home I called up Porterfield to
discuss the matter. I was told
that I
> > must have installed
them incorrectly - and that it was my fault. There
was
> > not
even a hint of customer service attitude in the people I spoke
with.
As
> > a matter of fact, I was told that Tim would call me
back to discuss the
> > matter. That didn't happen. When I
finally tracked him down he matter
of
> > factly told me that I
should NOT have used or turned the rotors, and
instead
> > returned
them to Porterfield for inspection. He showed no
compassion
about
> > my situation with an already paid for track
event. He also made it
known
> > that they had never
heard of this type of problem.
> >
> > Do not mis-construe
this for whining - I am just telling how I was
treated
> > by
Porterfield. I am glad that they have improved their
"customer
service".
> >
> > My second set of cryo'd rotors
were purchased this spring. I already
wrote
> > this list
about what happened with those. A quick synopsis: I had
a
shop
> > measure runout prior to installing - 0.0002. After
installing they
warped
> > the first time I stepped on the brakes
while going over 60 MPH. I
followed
> > the break-in
instructions. Previous stops at lower speeds did not
indicate
>
> warpage. I had them turned before the track event and they
worked
> > flawlessly. (turning cost me $81.00 as I did not have
the time to
remove
> > them from the car. The only shop that
could do it while I was not
working
> > was the Mitsu garage.)
Burned from my previous experience with the
customer
> > service
professionals at Porterfield I have not contacted them about
this
>
> problem.
> >
> > Oskar
> >
> > -----
Original Message -----
> > From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>
> To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:01 AM
> > Subject: RE:
Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
> >
> >
> >
> In PROACTIVE companies, QC is transparent to customers because
they
seldom
> > > receive flawed products. QC systems can
be set up to SPOT CHECK
products
> > > without checking 100% of
the rotors received. If Porterfield doesn't
> > check
>
> > the products it receives from it's vendors, and just tranships them
to
> > it's
> > > customers, then Porterfield is acting as
little more than a MIDDLEMAN,
> > with
> > > little value
added.
> > >
> > > Not just slamming Porterfield, it's
not a perfect world, stuff
happens.
> > But
> > > it's
pretty irresponsible to rely on customer complaints as the
primary
>
> > means of detecting flawed products
> > >
> > >
Chuck.
> > >
> > > > -----Original
Message-----
> > > > From: Geoff Mohler
[SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday,
September 06, 2001 9:50 AM
> > > > To: Willis, Charles E.
>
> > > Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st> >
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
> > >
>
> > > > They are considering this.
> > >
>
> > > > Being as they ship hundreds of sets of rotors per
day, this isnt
> > possible.
> > > >
> > >
> FEEDBACK from customers is what does cause checking of specific
types
&
> > > > situations however. The track record from
thier casting/machining
> > vendors
> > > > is pretty
clean.
> > > >
> > > > Ive had a few of you with
warp issues (my sincere regrets), and one
> > person
> > >
> got the right BOX, but some other type of rotor in it (from another
>
> > > mailing list). Thats all ive had in about $23,000 in orders
this
year
> > so
> > > > far.
> > >
>
> > > > On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E.
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Perhaps Porterfield
should consider checking the runout on the
rotors
> > > >
they
> > > > > receive from the people who make the rotors
before accepting the
> > > > shipment.
> > > >
>
> > > > > Some might call it Quality Control
...
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:42:34
-0600
From: "Floyd, Jim" <
Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
You must build in quality using in
process manufacturing tracking
techniques.
You can not inspect in quality,
only find mistakes.
I know, I know - I'm preaching to the choir.
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E.
[mailto:cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org]
Sent: Thursday, September 06,
2001 9:02 AM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
In PROACTIVE companies, QC
is transparent to customers because they seldom
receive flawed
products. QC systems can be set up to SPOT CHECK products
without
checking 100% of the rotors received. If Porterfield doesn't check
the
products it receives from it's vendors, and just tranships them to
it's
customers, then Porterfield is acting as little more than a MIDDLEMAN,
with
little value added.
Not just slamming Porterfield, it's not a
perfect world, stuff happens. But
it's pretty irresponsible to rely on
customer complaints as the primary
means of detecting flawed
products
Chuck.
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September
06, 2001 9:50 AM
> To: Willis, Charles E.
> Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
>
> They are
considering this.
>
> Being as they ship hundreds of sets of rotors
per day, this isnt possible.
>
> FEEDBACK from customers is what
does cause checking of specific types &
> situations however.
The track record from thier casting/machining vendors
> is pretty
clean.
>
> Ive had a few of you with warp issues (my sincere
regrets), and one person
> got the right BOX, but some other type of rotor
in it (from another
> mailing list). Thats all ive had in about
$23,000 in orders this year so
> far.
>
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2001,
Willis, Charles E. wrote:
>
> > Perhaps Porterfield should
consider checking the runout on the rotors
> they
> > receive
from the people who make the rotors before accepting the
>
shipment.
> >
> > Some might call it Quality Control ...
> >
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 10:40:03
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
There is absolutely nothing
wrong with the quality of stock rotors. So what
would be wrong in taking a
stock rotor to a local cryogenic place? I can
get the treatment done
for $19.95 per rotor locally (crogenic engineering,
www.cryoeng.com). They even do brake pads for
$2.50!!! Stock rotors are $90
+ $20 for treatment, so that's $110 per rotor,
and no shipping.
What's wrong with this
picture?
Rich
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 10:44:59
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
> He also made it
known
>that they had never heard of this type of
problem.
>
They teach this attitude at customer service school,
especially for
software. Whenever you call with a problem, you are always the
ONLY one who
has ever had this problem.
My wife is a bankruptcy
lawyer, and she had all kinds of problems with a
software package. The
helpful customer service reps (CSRs) worked her
through the solution to every
problem, clucking the entire time that she
was the only customer reporting
such problems. She went to a bankruptcy
conference and asked the assembled
multitudes if anyone had experienced the
same software problem -- hundreds of
hands went up.
So, whenever anyone tells you that you are the only one
with such a
problem, realize that they are probably lying to
you.
Rich
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:08:09
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
Its mostly FUD, but there is truth to
the problems people had.
The problems have been communicated, and they
are checking my orders at my
request (I ask Wendy reallly nice coz shes nice
to talk to). They have
been listening to us.
On Thu, 6 Sep 2001,
cody wrote:
> Got a question.
>
> With all this
about Porterfield, I am kinda having second thoughts. I
> am ready
to spend about $800 on rotors / pads / SS brake lines for my
> car for all
4 corners.
>
> Mine is a FWD, so what should I
do? Chances are - it will be a few
> weeks between the time I
install them, and the actual time that I use
> them, because my car is
reaching its final stages, but just isn't there
> yet.
>
> Any suggestions???
>
> -Cody
*New &
Improved:
http://www.speedtoys.com
*
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:58:57
-0500
From: "Oskar" <
osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Porterfield Rotors...
For street driving I have been using Stillen
X-drilled rotors, and Metal
Matrix pads. This was a vast improvement
over my stock rotors/pads. I
installed all at the same time along with
SS lines, so it all contributed to
the improvement.
The Stillen rotors
are also nice in that they are plated, so they do not
rust. Very nice
up here in Minnesota. They also have a high magnetism with
people -
these rotors look nice and are always noticed by people checking
out the
car. Keep down the flames people - not everyone wants the
race
stuff. This is just a factual statement.
Now, take note of
this. These rotors do not hold up for open tracking in
these
cars. In 1999 I broke one of these while at Brainerd
International
Raceway. The right front rotor totally separated itself
from the hub.
Oskar
temporarily without a Stealth
- -----
Original Message -----
From: "cody" <
overclck@starband.net>
To:
"Team3S" <
team3s@mail.speedtoys.com>
Sent:
Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:39 AM
Subject: Team3S: Porterfield
Rotors...
> Got a question.
>
> With all this about
Porterfield, I am kinda having second thoughts. I
> am ready to
spend about $800 on rotors / pads / SS brake lines for my
> car for all 4
corners.
>
> Mine is a FWD, so what should I do? Chances are -
it will be a few
> weeks between the time I install them, and the actual
time that I use
> them, because my car is reaching its final stages, but
just isn't there
> yet.
>
> Any suggestions???
>
>
-Cody
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:19:16
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
> The Stillen rotors are also nice
in that they are plated, so they do not
> rust. Very nice up here in
Minnesota. They also have a high magnetism with
> people - these
rotors look nice and are always noticed by people checking
> out the
car. Keep down the flames people - not everyone wants the race
>
stuff. This is just a factual statement.
- ---
Ya..cad plating does
look cool.
> Now, take note of this. These rotors do not
hold up for open tracking in
> these cars. In 1999 I broke one of
these while at Brainerd International
> Raceway. The right front
rotor totally separated itself from the hub.
- ---
Were you the guy that
melted a set of MM pads too?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:14:30
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: tapping is making me crazy
If you go to the Search Page and
enter lifter +tap, you will get 118
references to past discussions; if
you enter lifter +tick, you will get 58
more. When you get all
that information from the archives, we would welcome
your writing a summation
for the FAQ Pages.
www.Team3S.com/Search.htmBest,
Forrest
>
> From: "Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
>
Theres tons of references.
>
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Peter Howey
wrote:
>
> > Yes, I did. There is nothing aboot lifter
tapping in the FAQs.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
Peter M. Howey
> > Manager of Information Systems
> >
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
"Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
>
>
> > > Have you tries the team3s.com FAQ?
> >
>
> > > On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Peter Howey wrote:
> >
>
> > > > '94 Dodge Stealth RT. tic tic tic tic
>
> > >
> > > > This topic has probably been beaten to
death. Is there a "how the
hell
> > do I
> > >
> get rid of the lifter tapping" FAQ somewhere?
> > >
>
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > >
> Peter M. Howey
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:15:15
-0500
From: "Oskar" <
osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Porterfield Rotors...
Good memory Jeff.
What pad compound was left
dislodged from the backing plate. The other side
showed about 1/4
compound left. Since then I have been using R4
pads.
Oskar
- ----- Original Message ----- > ---
> Were
you the guy that melted a set of MM pads too?
>
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:28:02
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
> -----Original Message-----
>
From: Oskar [SMTP:osk@mediaone.net]
>
> The Stillen rotors are also
nice in that they are plated, so they do not
> rust. Very nice up
here in Minnesota. They also have a high magnetism
> with
>
people - these rotors look nice and are always noticed by people
checking
> out the car. Keep down the flames people - not everyone
wants the race
> stuff. This is just a factual
statement.
[Willis, Charles E.]
Don't rust? My Stillen
Crossdrilled Sport rotors have (always had)
a ton of rust! Do you ever
touch the brake pedal or just have it trailered
around to show off?
That plating is about one atom thick.
> Now, take note of this.
These rotors do not hold up for open tracking in
> these cars. In
1999 I broke one of these while at Brainerd International
> Raceway.
The right front rotor totally separated itself from the hub.
[Willis, Charles
E.] I assume you mean separated from the HAT. I
drive all my
track events with these rotors, except the homemade
crossdrilled stock ones I
used to substitute in. [Willis, Charles E.]
There are all manner of brake
failures for crossdrilled, slotted, cryoed,
heat-treated and stock (just ask
Flash!).It is ludicrous to condemn a whole
product line just because you
broke one. Oskar
> temporarily without a Stealth
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 09:18:09
-0700
From: Jim Elferdink <
macintosh@sunra.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
My two cents on the problem
Porterfield had never heard of:
About a year ago I put Porterfield cryoed
rotors on my 94 VR-4 along with a
set of new R4S pads, (with very careful
mounting and torquing) took the car
out and warmed up the brakes with several
medium stops from about 70. The
new pads were smokin' nicely and the brakes
felt perfectly smooth. I drove
on the expressway for about 30 minutes to cool
things down and then tried
stopping again. MAJOR vibration! Very warped new
rotors!
I called Porterfield. They said it's unusual, but the heat cycle
can warp
new cryoed rotors--but have them turned and they should be
stable after
that. I turned them--they had to take a pretty hefty cut to
flatten 'em out,
about .014 in. as I recall--and they've been smooth as silk
ever since
through about 10 track days, although I usually turn them after a
weekend at
the track. However now they're about down to the minimum
thickness, thanks
in no small part to that original warpage.
‹Jim
Elferdink
> From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 10:44:59 -0500
> To: "Oskar" <
osk@mediaone.net>, <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Brake Rotors Resolution
>
>> He also
made it known
>> that they had never heard of this type of
problem.
>>
> They teach this attitude at customer service
school, especially for
> software. Whenever you call with a problem, you
are always the ONLY one who
> has ever had this problem.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:35:07
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
Lest we forget, all of us owners would
be isolated and at the mercy of the
suppliers if people like Geoff didn't go
out of their way to promote
communications among us and facillitate feedback
to the vendors.
(not to mention the discounts!)
Thanks,
Geoff!
Chuck Willis
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September
06, 2001 11:08 AM
> To: cody
> Cc: Team3S
> Subject: Re:
Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:33:27
-0500
From: "Oskar" <
osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Porterfield Rotors...
> Don't rust? My Stillen Crossdrilled
Sport rotors have (always had)
> a ton of rust! Do you ever touch
the brake pedal or just have it
trailered
> around to show off?
That plating is about one atom thick.
I drive my car like I stole
it.
If I let it sit long enough surface rust will develop on the brake
surface,
but of course this is immediately gone the next time I touch the
brakes.
The hat, and the parts of the rotor that are not touched by the brake
pad
have absolutely no rust whatsoever. This includes the outer edge of
the
rotor as well. Looks very nice! Out of 365 days, there are
only a few when
it is not humid, raining or snowing up here.
I did not
measure the thickness of the plating :-)
> [Willis, Charles E.]
I assume you mean separated from the HAT. I
> drive all my track
events with these rotors, except the homemade
> crossdrilled stock ones I
used to substitute in. [Willis, Charles E.]
> There are all manner of
brake failures for crossdrilled, slotted, cryoed,
> heat-treated and stock
(just ask Flash!).It is ludicrous to condemn a
whole
> product line
just because you broke one.
Hmmm.. Comparing the amount of material
connecting the rotor and the hat on
my Stllen rotors vs. stock I am not
surprised at what happened. I will not
ever consider using these at the
track again. The same goes for Metal
Matrix pads.
Maybe you and
I have different Stillen rotors? Mine were purchased in '98.
They are
gold plated. Replacements were purchased in '99 and they
look
identical.
Oskar
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:36:21
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
> There are all manner of brake
failures for crossdrilled,
> slotted, cryoed, heat-treated and stock (just
ask Flash!).
> It is ludicrous to condemn a whole product line
just
> because you broke one.
The problem is that Oskar isn't the
only one who broke one. Others were
broken similarly. Also the
PowerSlot rotors are made from the same blanks
as the Stillen rotors and they
have also been broken.
They are BRAKES - they should be very reliable,
especially a rotor sold as
being "Sport Rotors". If anything on the car
needs to work well every
single time you use it it needs to be the
brakes. To think broken rotors
are somehow okay strikes me as
odd.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:55:59
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
I'll add to this that this may well be
aggrivated by the surface defects
at the hub chamfer (bad word?) and any
uneven hub face surfaces.
On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Jannusch, Matt
wrote:
> > There are all manner of brake failures for
crossdrilled,
> > slotted, cryoed, heat-treated and stock (just ask
Flash!).
> > It is ludicrous to condemn a whole product line
just
> > because you broke one.
>
> The problem is that
Oskar isn't the only one who broke one. Others were
> broken
similarly. Also the PowerSlot rotors are made from the same blanks
>
as the Stillen rotors and they have also been broken.
>
> They are
BRAKES - they should be very reliable, especially a rotor sold as
> being
"Sport Rotors". If anything on the car needs to work well every
>
single time you use it it needs to be the brakes. To think broken
rotors
> are somehow okay strikes me as odd.
>
>
-Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*New & Improved:
http://www.speedtoys.com *
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:59:15
-0700
From: "BlackLight" <
BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Need a quick answer!! Please help!!
I just got my Intrax springs
today and I am going to install them, but
which way do they go? One side of
the spring looks more compressed than
the other (distance between spring
spacing is smaller) so does the
tighter part go towards the top or bottom?
Please help, I was on my way
out the door to get started when I noticed
it.
Sorry for the direct post, but I need to know ASAP, sorry!! And
thank
you for the help!!
Matt Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer Sales
Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Netwww.BlackLight.5u.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:15:47
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
> I drive my car like I stole
it.
>
> If I let it sit long enough surface rust will develop on
the brake
> surface,
> but of course this is immediately gone the
next time I touch the brakes.
> The hat, and the parts of the rotor that
are not touched by the brake pad
> have absolutely no rust
whatsoever. This includes the outer edge of the
> rotor as
well. [Willis, Charles E.] the vents and outer edge of
my
> rotors are rusted just like any other, I agree there is less
corrosion
> under the hat.
>
> I did not measure the
thickness of the plating :-)
>
>
> Hmmm.. Comparing the
amount of material connecting the rotor and the hat
> on
> my Stllen
rotors vs. stock I am not surprised at what happened. I will
>
not
> ever consider using these at the track again. The same goes
for Metal
> Matrix pads.
[Willis, Charles E.]
I think Metal
Matrix pads are better than stock and adequate for
novices. With
increased braking, they last about two events (four days).
Considering the
price, it's worth the investment for someone who doesn't
know whether they
like this or not.
> Maybe you and I have different Stillen
rotors? Mine were purchased in
> '98.
> They are gold
plated. Replacements were purchased in '99 and they look
>
identical. [Willis, Charles E.] My son and I have been using
these
> Sport rotors for four seasons, without a single separation of the
hat.
> Oskar
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:28:59
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
Somebody please tell me the
manufacturer of an unbreakable, unwarpable brake
rotor!
> To
think broken rotors
> are somehow okay strikes me as odd.
>
[Willis, Charles E.] I'm not saying it's okay, I'm saying
it
happens. What should make you unhappy is if it happens more
frequently to
one product than another when you didn't do anything to
aggravate the
heating or wear, like running your brake pads down to the
backer plates, or
like after the machine shop turned them down below the
minimum thickness.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:24:16
-0700
From: "Darc" <
wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
tapping is making me crazy
Buy a reputable oil flush product, follow
directions, then drain the oil and
change the filter, put in Mobil 1 from
then on. Should solve it. Follow the
same advise if it occurs again.
And if it does, you're not changing oil
often
enough.
Best
Darc
snip>>>>>>
>
>
> '94 Dodge Stealth RT. tic tic tic tic
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:58:51
+0200
From: "Mikael Kenson" <
vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Detect knock?
The best way to detect knock???
Just take 20 cm long
15mm copper pipe flatten it in one end and drill a 8mm hole thru the flatted
end. Bolt it to one of the lower intake bolts between the cylinder banks. Go to
your local hardware store and buy the cheapest ear covers (don't know the
english word for it, But I think you know what I mean). connect a garden hose to
the round end of the pipe, connect the other end to the ear covers (drill a hole
and seal with silicone). Now you have the perfect knock monitor. Drive the car.
You will for sure notice when knock beggins. This works 1000 times better than
any knock sensor. Try it.
/Mikael Kenson
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Ken Stanton" <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
To: "Team3S
Stealth" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, September 06, 2001 4:38 PM
Subject: Team3S: Detect
knock?
> I'm about to install alcohol injection on my baby, but
know that the
> desire to up boost is there, and I most likely
will...
>
> So, for all those of you who can, how do you detect
knock? Knock meter,
> datalogging, etc?
>
>
Thanks!
> Ken Stanton
> '91 Pearl White R/T TT
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:44:57
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Detect knock?
I think I'll stick to my TMO and PocketLOGGER
dataloggers for knock
detection (1991-1993 models). I think I would find it
distracting to
wear "ear covers" with garden hoses attached. :)
But
seriously, I would think it difficult for the average driver to
"process" the
sounds heard and compare with piston compression events
happening 300 times a
second (that's 6 cylinders each firing 50 times
a second at 6000
RPM).
For those that want to know what knock sounds like, check out the
web
page below.
http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htmThat
link and many others are on the Tech Page at my web site.
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- --- Mikael
Kenson <
vr4@bahnhof.se> wrote:
>
The best way to detect knock???
>
> Just take 20 cm long 15mm
copper pipe flatten it in one end and
> drill a 8mm hole thru the flatted
end. Bolt it to one of the lower
> intake bolts between the cylinder
banks. Go to your local hardware
> store and buy the cheapest ear covers
(don't know the english word
> for it, But I think you know what I mean).
connect a garden hose to
> the round end of the pipe, connect the other
end to the ear covers
> (drill a hole and seal with silicone). Now you
have the perfect
> knock monitor. Drive the car. You will for sure notice
when knock
> beggins. This works 1000 times better than any knock sensor.
Try
> it.
>
> /Mikael Kenson
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:39:07
-0400
From: Ken Stanton <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Detect knock?
Thanks Jeff...
Say, how much does
TMO/PLogger go for?
Would it be simpler/more cost effective to put just a
knock meter in?
Thanks!
Ken
Jeff Lucius wrote:
> I
think I'll stick to my TMO and PocketLOGGER dataloggers for knock
>
detection (1991-1993 models). I think I would find it distracting to
>
wear "ear covers" with garden hoses attached. :)
>
> But seriously,
I would think it difficult for the average driver to
> "process" the
sounds heard and compare with piston compression events
> happening 300
times a second (that's 6 cylinders each firing 50 times
> a second at 6000
RPM).
>
> For those that want to know what knock sounds like, check
out the web
> page below.
>
>
http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm>
>
That link and many others are on the Tech Page at my web site.
>
>
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com>
> ---
Mikael Kenson <
vr4@bahnhof.se>
wrote:
> > The best way to detect knock???
> >
> >
Just take 20 cm long 15mm copper pipe flatten it in one end and
> >
drill a 8mm hole thru the flatted end. Bolt it to one of the lower
> >
intake bolts between the cylinder banks. Go to your local hardware
> >
store and buy the cheapest ear covers (don't know the english word
> >
for it, But I think you know what I mean). connect a garden hose to
> >
the round end of the pipe, connect the other end to the ear covers
> >
(drill a hole and seal with silicone). Now you have the perfect
> >
knock monitor. Drive the car. You will for sure notice when knock
> >
beggins. This works 1000 times better than any knock sensor. Try
> >
it.
> >
> > /Mikael Kenson
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 15:52:09
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Detect knock?
> Say, how much does TMO/PLogger go
for?
> Would it be simpler/more cost effective to put just a knock meter
in?
TMO is $300, PocketLogger is $155, MSD Knock Alert is
$140.
With the TMO you need a Windows-capable notebook PC, the
PocketLogger
requires a Palm Computing device with serial cradle - so if you
don't
already have one of those then add that to the cost.
MSD Knock
Alert (what I'm going to be using once the car is back together)
doesn't
datalog or anything - just has LED's and a buzzer basically. If
there
are other "knock meters" than that I'm not aware of them, but would
like to
hear about any other alternatives.
http://www.tmo.comhttp://www.pocketlogger.comhttp://www.msdignition.com/1protool.htm#anchor168229I'd
say the TMO or PocketLogger is a way better way to go if they'll work on
your
car ('91-93?). You'll get much more useful information than using
a
knock alert alone - and you'll see exactly what the ECU is seeing.
-
-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:55:38
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Detect knock?
The TMO cable and software have been $300
forever. I'm not sure where
to find that product anymore.
http://www.tmo.com/ says they are out
of
dataloggers at the top of their home page. Todd Day never
supported our cars
anyway. 3S usage was always an afterthought.
The PocketLOGGER by digital
tuning, inc.
http://www.pocketlogger.com/, is
$155 plus you need a Palm handheld, ~$130 for the M100 I have.
Cable is
included. I picked mine up used and am just starting to use
it. It does not
have the nice graphical support the TMO has and logs
a max of 12 items. But
it is VERY easy to use real time. dti is also
working on 1994-1995 version
and OBDII. Mike Montalvo of dti is
genuinely interested in making loggers for
ALL our models. I suggest
contacting him with support or suggestions.
http://www.pocketlogger.com/?page=contact
I think an owner has already donated a 1994 ECM to him.
From what I
have heard from Team3S and 3SI members, independent knock
sensors still leave
you wondering and really require "calibrating"
with a TMO/PL. Some folks
suggest using timing retard to monitor
knock; but this can be problematic
also.
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- --- Ken Stanton
<
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Thanks Jeff...
>
> Say, how much does TMO/PLogger go
for?
> Would it be simpler/more cost effective to put just a knock
meter
> in?
>
> Thanks!
> Ken
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:39:04
-0400
From: Ken Stanton <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Detect knock?
Thank you Jeff and Matt. Excellent
info!
I will be checking into all three options, and will let you know
where I end up
going. Thanks again!
Ken Stanton
'91 Pearl
White R/T TT
Jeff Lucius wrote:
> The TMO cable and software
have been $300 forever. I'm not sure where
> to find that product anymore.
http://www.tmo.com/ says they are out
>
of dataloggers at the top of their home page. Todd Day never
> supported
our cars anyway. 3S usage was always an afterthought.
>
> The
PocketLOGGER by digital tuning, inc.
http://www.pocketlogger.com/> ,
is $155 plus you need a Palm handheld, ~$130 for the M100 I have.
> Cable
is included. I picked mine up used and am just starting to use
> it. It
does not have the nice graphical support the TMO has and logs
> a max of
12 items. But it is VERY easy to use real time. dti is also
> working on
1994-1995 version and OBDII. Mike Montalvo of dti is
> genuinely
interested in making loggers for ALL our models. I suggest
> contacting
him with support or suggestions.
>
http://www.pocketlogger.com/?page=contact>
I think an owner has already donated a 1994 ECM to him.
>
> >From
what I have heard from Team3S and 3SI members, independent knock
> sensors
still leave you wondering and really require "calibrating"
> with a
TMO/PL. Some folks suggest using timing retard to monitor
> knock; but
this can be problematic also.
>
> Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com>
> --- Ken
Stanton <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> > Thanks Jeff...
> >
> > Say, how much does
TMO/PLogger go for?
> > Would it be simpler/more cost effective to put
just a knock meter
> > in?
> >
> > Thanks!
>
> Ken
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:41:55
-0500
From: "bdtrent" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Trivia 2
You'll be the second to
know.
Regards,
DaveT/92TT
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To:
"bdtrent" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Cc: "Team 3S"
<
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Trivia
2
> You'll be the first to know.
>
> On Wed, 5 Sep
2001, bdtrent wrote:
>
> > In the FWIW department, my 92TT has
36K and I'm still running the
original
> > timing belt. I'm
going to run one more track event in a couple weeks
before
> >
putting the car up on the stands to dig in. Hopefully it will hold
up
for
> > one more run.
> >
> > Regards,
>
> DaveT/92TT
> >
> >
---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
NetZero Platinum
> > Only $9.95 per month!
> > Sign up in
September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2!
> >
http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97***
Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:19:38
-0700
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Keep
them wheels clean kids
FWIW --- I've been messing with this on and off
for the last
year and found it to be a reasonable solution to keeping your
wheels clean especially if you take your car to the track. A
couple of
days at the track takes its toll on wheels, rubber and
brake dust abound
along with excess quantities of heat.
After a thorough cleaning spray
them completely with silicon
spray lubricant, let it dry and wipe off any
excess. After 150
miles of track time at Willow springs I just wiped the
brake
dust off with a rag [ both outside and the inside of the wheel
].
I did the same thing when the wheels were new and just wiped
them
clean occasionally --- reapplication is required and that's
what I playing
with now. I plan on spraying my track rims before
heading for the track ---
It should be noted for any intellectually
challenged types, that keeping the
silicon off the tire contact
surface is a
must
Jim Berry
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#603
***************************************