Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth    Monday, August 20 2001    Volume 01 : Number 584




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Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:59:50 -0400
From: "Robert Booker" <nsubooker@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Team3s: Car lost acceleration

That is exactly what happened to my 93 R/T. Turned out to be the crankshaft
position sensor. Hope this helps

Matt
93' Stealth R/T
00' Intrepid
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "lisa buccella" <buccela_lisa@hotmail.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 3:20 PM
Subject: Team3S: Team3s: Car lost acceleration

> Hi Team 3s,
>
> I recently purchased a 93 Stealth R/T (about 63000 miles) a few weeks ago.
> While I was driving (doing about 50 mph in 4th), the RPM gauge suddenly
went
> to 0 and the engine sounded like it was idling.  I tried to accelerate but
> there was no response from the engine whatsoever.  I was able to downshift
> to 3rd and 2nd and heard the engine revs go up, but the RPMs gauge still
> read 0.  Once again I tried to accelerate but the engine still did not
> respond.  At about 10 mph, the engine died and I coasted to a stop.  The
car
> did not start and I am not sure what I should check now before I bring it
to
> a mechanic (I changed the engine fuse but that didn't do anything).  Any
> idea as to whether it could be electronic (O2 sensor) or a fuel pump.
>
> After this incident took place, the previous owner indicated that the car
> had never had a tune up and it has been about 2 years since the air filter
> had been changed.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lisa

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:55:29 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Use cooked R4S pads on the street?

... and I would suggest that you keep the cryo rotors for the track so that
we can start to diagnose if our brakes are warping them or if it is the fact
that they are enduring street and track uses and trying to meet halfway in
the middle.  You can be our test as most of us keep the same rotors on all
season until they need turned.

After 3 months of street use you will find that the rear pads STILL have
3/16-1/4 of material left.  Yep.  Don't get used much on street use.  Keep
us posted though as everyone drives differently (steep mountain passes,
dirt, rain, hot temps, humidity, etc.).

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 with cryo front rotors (warped) and previous R4-S pads for street
and track have finally worn thin after three events and 6 months

- -----Original Message-----
From: John Christian
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 10:00 PM

Hi Erik,

There's no reason to change 3/16-1/4 for the street
expecially since the R4s is a street pad.

If you were running the R4  (a race pad) I would have
changed them at the track before the drive home.  Race
pads need to be warm/hot to work properly.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:01:32 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Team3s: Car lost acceleration

Try accelerating under boost and see if it works.  Then get it above boost
and see what happens.  If it is boost that is getting lost then one of those
turbo or intercooler hoses have popped off and anything else is going to be
something else ... hopefully still not expensive.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Wayne
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 3:27 PM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: Team3s: Car lost acceleration

Lisa,
It sounds like a hose came loose between the air box and throttle body.
Check it out and let us know..

Wayne

At 12:20 PM 8/18/01 , lisa buccella wrote:
>Hi Team 3s,
>
>I recently purchased a 93 Stealth R/T (about 63000 miles) a few weeks ago.
>While I was driving (doing about 50 mph in 4th), the RPM gauge suddenly
>went to 0 and the engine sounded like it was idling.  I tried to
>accelerate but there was no response from the engine whatsoever.  I was
>able to downshift to 3rd and 2nd and heard the engine revs go up, but the
>RPMs gauge still read 0.  Once again I tried to accelerate but the engine
>still did not respond.  At about 10 mph, the engine died and I coasted to
>a stop.  The car did not start and I am not sure what I should check now
>before I bring it to a mechanic (I changed the engine fuse but that didn't
>do anything).  Any idea as to whether it could be electronic (O2 sensor)
>or a fuel pump.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Lisa

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:11:21 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stock brake replacement

Gabriel,

   Thanks for asking.  There might be some good advice on Jeff Lucius' page
(www.stealth316.com) or search the archives on Team3S (www.team3s.com) for
some advice.  Basically (depending on what year you have since you did not
tell us) you take these steps:
(Front calipers for second gen car)
1. Take out a small spring on the inside of the caliper
2. Pull out two pins
3. Pick the spring metal clip off the floor after you forget that it flies
out when removing the pins
4. Remove the pads
5. Spread the pistons apart
6. Insert new pads
7. Step on brake pedal several times to "set" the pads against the rotor

(Rear calipers for second gen car)
(see instructions for front pads)

For a first gen car I think the rear calipers are a little different like
removing something, swinging it out of the way or something but this will be
close.

As far as street fluid I would still recommend the racing fluid (Motul 600)
since doing panic stops (like, "Oh crap I am about to miss the exit and it
is the last one before the toll road) will still boil stock generic fluid.
It is only $10 a bottle or so from our very own Jeff Mohler
(gemohler@www.speedtoys.com) and this will eliminate any problems with brake
fluid and is the best peace of mind so you will KNOW your brake fluid will
work.  Other high temp fluids are also okay but you get what you pay for.
$10 vs. $4 and you are only changing it once a year so I would upgrade for
that $0.50 a month extra price.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Gabriel Estrada
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 12:02 PM
To: team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: Stock brake replacement

Ok,
I have never changed the pads before on my GT, but I can't imagine that is
going to be that hard.  But I'd like some advice on simple stock replacement
pads and what is the best fluid to use that can be store bought for a car
that is never raced, just daily driven.
Thanks in advance!
Gabriel Estrada

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:14:17 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stealth info

True, Matt.  Timing belts are good for at least 60k so try and yell at the
people who did the timing belt.

The A/C belts can shred but should not ruin the timing belts.  Try to yell
at the A/C belt manufacturer or installer.

That is, unless you did the work.  In which case you need to find the mfg at
fault.  Good luck.  We are all behind you.  Just point out how the timing
belt is supposed to be nearly 100% covered by timing belt covers.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 and at least 60k on the timing and A/C belts

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 12:51 AM

That's strange.  A broken A/C belt shouldn't be able to hose up the timing
belt since the timing belt is tucked safely away under a full set of covers.
Seems a little suspicious to me...


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:29:18 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Lack of knowledge

Check in to the Lemon Law for your state.  For PA it is something like 6
months for obvious things (tranny, A/C, suspension, etc.) and cna be claimed
as the seller knew this when selling it.  Good luck.

Personally, I would never buy a car without a mechanic looking at it.  The
last three I have bought, fortunately, were checked by my personal mechanic
before the day was over and the dealer allowed this and said things would be
fixed (brakes, etc.) to get it to operating standards.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven M.
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 3:14 AM

How long since you've purchased it have the problems popped up?
Did they expressly deny you a buyer's inspection?

It may very well be that the dealership has to put up some cash for it.


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:46:18 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: How to compress brake caliper pistons?

Actually Chuck, Rich Merritt had those large pliers (about 18" handle and 8"
jaw but indeed the largest I had ever seen too).  I have given up trying to
save the nice finish on the Big Reds and just clamp on the front and put the
other jaw behind the pad and squeeze.  Opening the brake filler lid does
help but id not necessary.  Opening the bleed valve also helps but is not
necessary and it requires another set of hands to keep the tube on the
bleeder.

I was using a towel on the front and back of the caliper to keep nicks and
scratches down.  After a while it was easier and less trouble to just put up
with the scratches as life scars.

It is also easier to do when the brake fluid is warm and not cold after
sitting all night.  This means the calipers are 400+ degrees (as well as
rotor, pads, and wheel so be careful).

And not 47 pad changes but 48 (has to be an even number).  Still ... the
five of us, at the Kansas track event, got quite good at the routine.
Probably took less than 7 minutes from jacking the car up to lowering it
back down and torquing the bolts.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E.
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 2:52 PM

Everybody has a variation, depending on preference and clearance on their
calipers.  Flash uses a HUMONGOUS set of channellocks the likes of which I
had never seen.  I use two C-clamps on the old pad backer plate, but
channellocks are my backup.  There is a tool you can buy at Sears for about
$10 to spread the pads.  All of these can be done without removing the
caliper, but if a piston gets hung up, you will have to remove the caliper
to get a good push on the piston.  That can STILL be done trackside with the
fluid hose still attached.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:05:46 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Headlights

I did aftermarket fog light installs once and the wiring was shorting out
some of the under dash fuses.  A swift kick with the clutch foot solved the
problem but sooner or later it shorted out the fuse.  When I removed the
wire for the fog lights the headlights and dashlights worked perfectly.
Check for aftermarket radar detectors, fog lights, stereo amps, etc. too.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 9:21 PM

> The lights stay up but the bulbs go out .
Check the white wiring harness that goes to your headlight assembly.  Take
it
off and clean it with alcohol.  See if that helps.  Good luck.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:27:22 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: Team3S: Track reports (long and overdue)

I can finally write about the learnings of Bill Hubbell and his 1993 VR-4 at
the track (highly off-the-shelf modified).  First was Poconos (South track
first day then North track second day) with PDA (Performance Driving Academy
I think).  Good mix of cars and modifications.  Bill was in the fastest
group.

The course was some interior (flat) corners and then Turn 1 on the banking.
Not great for our cars.  He actually had the Ferrari 512 there the first day
since there was trouble with the hauling truck but it runs similar times
although it is usually a hair faster.

The second day he ran the North course and had the VR-4 most of the day
since the 512 lost an alternator belt.  He burned through a stock set of
front pads on first gen stock calipers.  He was outbraking and beating a
Viper but we had to bleed every session and change pads once a day.  Times
were about 1:07-1:10 and is comparable to a few seconds slower than Lime
Rock so these times check out just right.

- --------

Second event was Watkins Glen with Trackmasters.  Two words sum up this
group: "Track time."  I swear they had 5 hours a day on the track (maybe not
that much but it seemed like it).  This time he had both cars but I had a
trick up my sleeve.  First run was on stock calipers and race pads and new
rotors.  Times were probably around 2:30 (they are written down elsewhere
right now).  Ferrari was down around 2:23.

I transferred my Porsche Big Red calipers, Pagid Orange pads, and we used
new cross-drilled rotors since my Porterfield cryo-treated rotors were
warped (he already had Motul 600 brake fluid and SS brake lines).  Times
were down to about 2:26 or so.  Pads lasted long enough that the water temp
was creeping up before the pads would fade.  Grin.  That proves it.  Big
Reds are better than stock first gen brakes.  Okay.  We all knew that.

Day two and the VR-4 and Ferrari were still running strong.  The oil temp on
the Ferrari would rise and bring it into the pits while the water temp on
the VR-4 would rise bringing it into the pits.  It was nice for him to have
two cars to run and give one a rest.  The VR-4 was running strong until we
saw him pull in, abandon it with the e-brake on 50 feet short of the truck,
trade for the Ferrari, and hit the track running.  I got in to put it in
first and drive but there was no gear ... all neutrals.  The shift linkage
had let go.  Sure enough.  The shift linkage (round bit at the end of the
cable) had let go from the rubber bushing and cotter pin.  The cotter pin
got brittle and broke and the rubber bushing cracked and gave way too.

We got the round part of the end of the shift cable onto the rubber bushing
part and used a paper clip instead of the cotter pin and wrapped the ends
around two times.  Won't come off now.  Some slow tests around the paddock
proved it all worked fine.  It ran fine and got same the times as before the
linkage broke.  Then when we checked the rotors they had cracked through the
thickness on both front rotors.  Back to the Ferrari for more laps.

- --------

Third event was Lime Rock with the Ferrari Club of America.  I know it is
not this list but some of our guys run the F40 Brembo brake upgrades so I
got to see these at the track on the right cars.  There were two F40 cars
running the track.  One was highly modified (upgraded more than modified)
and one seemed more stock.  Not many of us see stock F40 cars so I don't
know if it was stock or a standard set of upgrades.  The one F40 had larger
brakes already but he was also turning laps around 1:00 while Bill was doing
a very respectable 1:08-1:10 or so on street tires and race pads.  Lots of
nice cars, nice setups, fully race-prepped cars, etc.

Some people might think those Ferrari drivers are snooty but this bunch let
us borrow torque wrenches, jacks, heck ... would probably have let us borrow
a 355 Challenge car for a lap or two also if we had asked.  Nice bunch of
people.  Cars including two old Daytona cars to brand new 550 cars were
there including nearly everything between (308, 328, 348, 512 TR, 355
Challenge, 550, and modifiers like Berlinetta, Spyder, and GTS were
scattered everywhere).  Hope everyone can get to an event like this once in
their life.  One shop must have had a million dollars of cars (five of them)
for sale outside their car transporter.  The potential buyer was welcome to
take one out of the track for a test drive I think too.  What nice people.

Anyway, we slapped slicks on the Ferrari and he instantly dropped about 3-5
seconds.  Now he was beating a few of the race-prepped 355 Challenge cars.
I even have video of him passing the slower of the two F40s.  Doesn't matter
how slow an F40 is ... it is STILL counted as a victory.  Now he was running
down near 1:05.  That is nearly unheard of for a 512 Testarossa (also nearly
4,000 pounds).  That is why it is interesting for this list since it boasts
numbers similar to weight and torque and power ranges although it is RWD,
mid-engine but still it is closer than nothing.

- --------

Fourth event was Poconos again.  This time it was nearly the full track with
a good bit of the infield.  I missed this weekend but the VR-4 had the AP
6-piston brakes and AP rotors and Bill was finally outbraking everything
except about three types of cars (race-prepped Porsches, race-prepped
Vipers, race-prepped etc.).  You will notice that only the race-prepped cars
were outbraking the VR-4.  Then the rain approached.  Guess what.  Now he
was outbraking and dicing around everyone except the big downforce cars who
could care less if it was snowing since their aerodynamic forces helped them
more than traction did it appeared.  A scramble boost button down the long
back stretch in third gear at WOT finally stressed the engine too much and
the VR-4 is now in the shop for some work.  One thing for sure ... the AP
brakes nearly puts you through the windshield even with a 6-point harness.
<grin>

- --------

Fifth event is in two weekends and is the Ferrari again.  More on that
later.

- --Darren Schilberg
1995 VR-4
dschilberg@pobox.com
www.speedtoys.com/~dschilberg

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:55:30 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <apedenko@mediaone.net>
Subject: Team3S: stock gauge

I've read somewhere that the stock boost gauge is way off. But I can't find
the exact post to see if it shows too much or too little. I bought my '95
VR4 under the impression that it was stock, but when I floor it (especialy
in 2nd or 3d) the gauge hits the pin up top, meaning it wants to go past the
14 psi mark. Is that just the gauge, or am I not stock?

    Thanks,

Alex.

'95 VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 02:03:56 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stock gauge

The stock gauge reads at least 14 psi in nearly any gear.  Amazing since the
car is only set to 11 or 12 psi from the factory (and disregarding all
elevation changes).  AN aftermarket gauge is basically required when doing
turbo mods (BOV, boost controller, etc.) or you may cause damage to your
engine.

But at least the turbo gauge has numbers.  The water temp and oil pressure
are just ticks on the gauge.  Who knows how far off or right on these gauges
are as well.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 and stock gauges

- -----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pedenko
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 1:56 AM

I've read somewhere that the stock boost gauge is way off. But I can't find
the exact post to see if it shows too much or too little. I bought my '95
VR4 under the impression that it was stock, but when I floor it (especialy
in 2nd or 3d) the gauge hits the pin up top, meaning it wants to go past the
14 psi mark. Is that just the gauge, or am I not stock?

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:14:06 -0500
From: "Morice, Francis" <francis.morice@retek.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Team3s: Car lost acceleration

I second that, it happened to my 93 RT/TT as well. I would have your
mechanic look at that.

Francis
'96 RT/TT

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Booker [mailto:nsubooker@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 7:00 PM
To: lisa buccella; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: Team3s: Car lost acceleration

That is exactly what happened to my 93 R/T. Turned out to be the crankshaft
position sensor. Hope this helps

Matt
93' Stealth R/T
00' Intrepid

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "lisa buccella" <buccela_lisa@hotmail.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 3:20 PM
Subject: Team3S: Team3s: Car lost acceleration

> Hi Team 3s,
>
> I recently purchased a 93 Stealth R/T (about 63000 miles) a few weeks ago.
> While I was driving (doing about 50 mph in 4th), the RPM gauge suddenly
went
> to 0 and the engine sounded like it was idling.  I tried to accelerate but
> there was no response from the engine whatsoever.  I was able to downshift
> to 3rd and 2nd and heard the engine revs go up, but the RPMs gauge still
> read 0.  Once again I tried to accelerate but the engine still did not
> respond.  At about 10 mph, the engine died and I coasted to a stop.  The
car
> did not start and I am not sure what I should check now before I bring it
to
> a mechanic (I changed the engine fuse but that didn't do anything).  Any
> idea as to whether it could be electronic (O2 sensor) or a fuel pump.
>
> After this incident took place, the previous owner indicated that the car
> had never had a tune up and it has been about 2 years since the air filter
> had been changed.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lisa

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:17:44 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

Dear pals,

After four years of juggling 1st generation 17" VR4 wheels, my wife pointed
out that some are marked "R" and some are marked "L".  We have always used
them interchangeably.  There is no such marking on the 2nd generation 17"
VR4 wheels, so far as I can tell (of course I went four years without seeing
it on the other wheels).

Anybody know if there is ANY other real difference between "L" and "R"
wheels, besides the mark?

Chuck (bifocals really make a difference) Willis

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:19:32 +0200
From: "Mikael Kenson" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anti lag system

(Sorry for the late reply)
Most aftermarket ECU's have support for Anti lag and launch control.

The Autronic I use have Anti lag and it works great. The Autronic also has an unique cool down function so it won't be as harmfull to the turbos as most other systems are.

I can build 1,5 bar of boost standing still just by pressing a switch :) and I set the launch control to a specific RPM to help the launch. The boost stays at 1,5 bar between every gear change. The car takes off incredibly quick with this setup BUT the transfercase can't take the punishment at the drag strip so don't try this at home folks. (I know this because my brand new transfer case broke in two pieces after the second start...)

These cars will never be real quick until we find an alternative to the damn Getrag transfer case...

/Mikael Kenson (will this car ever hold for 402 meters so I can get a nice timeslip?)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Oleg Reznik" <Oleg@3000gt.lv>

> Hello guys,
>
> Anyone experiment with some kind of anti lag system?
> Today I drove Rally EVO5  - as passenger of course. The car was equiped with
> system, which change ignition in 1 or 2 cilinders in shifting moments and
> hold boost all the time. The driver can switch on/off the system at any
> point.
> When the car to be at a stop, switching ON system  - REVchange to 3000-4000,
> the car "shoot" and the boost going up and stop at apr. 1.5 bar. (1.7 is
> max. for this car)
> The question is: can we use some kind of anti lag systems on our cars? I
> know it's very bad for turbos, in rally they change it every year, but they
> drive hard and long.
>
> Regards,
> Oleg Reznik
> 3SI#0441
> www.3000gt.lv

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:25:08 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

Chuck,

   Make sure those are cast or forged in there.  Maybe the dealer or former
owner marked them for his own reference.  There should be no reason why they
are left and right since all four wheels must be the same in the AWD models.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E.
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:18 AM

Dear pals,

After four years of juggling 1st generation 17" VR4 wheels, my wife pointed
out that some are marked "R" and some are marked "L".  We have always used
them interchangeably.  There is no such marking on the 2nd generation 17"
VR4 wheels, so far as I can tell (of course I went four years without seeing
it on the other wheels).

Anybody know if there is ANY other real difference between "L" and "R"
wheels, besides the mark?

Chuck (bifocals really make a difference) Willis

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:31:40 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

> There should be no reason why they are left and right since
> all four wheels must be the same in the AWD models.

The spokes might be directional for looks only, depending on what wheels you
have.  Doesn't really matter what wheels go where other than the spokes
might appear "backwards" if you put the wheel on the wrong side.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:14:48 -0400
From: "Kevin Schappell" <kevin@schappell.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

Actually I think the vanes in the spokes are directional.... it's really
hard to tell but the lefts and rights are different.  These wheels are 5
spoke and powdercoated silver?

Kevin Schappell
http://kevin.schappell.com
Save money on all of your speed parts.
http://www.SpeedShoppers.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> Of Darren Schilberg
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:25 AM
> To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels
>
>
> Chuck,
>
>    Make sure those are cast or forged in there.  Maybe the dealer
> or former
> owner marked them for his own reference.  There should be no
> reason why they
> are left and right since all four wheels must be the same in the
> AWD models.
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Willis, Charles E.
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:18 AM
>
> Dear pals,
>
> After four years of juggling 1st generation 17" VR4 wheels, my
> wife pointed
> out that some are marked "R" and some are marked "L".  We have always used
> them interchangeably.  There is no such marking on the 2nd generation 17"
> VR4 wheels, so far as I can tell (of course I went four years
> without seeing
> it on the other wheels).
>
> Anybody know if there is ANY other real difference between "L" and "R"
> wheels, besides the mark?
>
> Chuck (bifocals really make a difference) Willis

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:38:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

TT Stealths had different wheels on the left and right as far as
spoke patterns. The wheels themselves are interchangeable, but could
look wierd if one left and right were switched (I haven't looked to
see if they are stamped L and R). The VR4 wheels on the Team3S FAQ
page *look* symmetrical though wrt spokes. Why would they be marked
(stamped?) L and R?

Actually the wheels don't have to be the same F/R on AWD. Just the
rolling diameter of the tires needs to be very close.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- --- Darren Schilberg <dschilberg@pobox.com> wrote:
> Chuck,
>
>    Make sure those are cast or forged in there.  Maybe the dealer
> or former
> owner marked them for his own reference.  There should be no reason
> why they
> are left and right since all four wheels must be the same in the
> AWD models.
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:43:14 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

Incidentally ... I assumed you were looking on the inside of the spokes
since this is the only place where markings are on the wheels.

My spare 1995 VR-4 wheel (6-spoke 18" chrome) has the following markings on
the inside of the spokes:
   First spoke - Mitsu diamond and letters "GB"
   Second spoke - A funny little symbol like a letter "N"
   Third spoke - "18x8 1/2J  46"
   Fourth spoke - "SD3B  2"
   Fifth spoke - (blank)
   Sixth spoke - "MITSUBISHI"

Then on the 1999 3000GT 17" SL wheels they read:
   First spoke - A funny little symbol like a chain link
   Second spoke - "MITSUBISHI" and Mitsu diamond
   Third spoke - A circle with a "9" then a horizontal line then a "96"
   Fourth spoke - "17x8 1/2J  1  HN"
   Fifth spoke - (blank)
   Sixth spoke - "46  PC  10" (the "PC" is in a small box)

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Darren Schilberg
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:25 AM

Chuck,

   Make sure those are cast or forged in there.  Maybe the dealer or former
owner marked them for his own reference.  There should be no reason why they
are left and right since all four wheels must be the same in the AWD models.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:29:13 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anti lag system

Holding 1.5 bar with the clutch in makes no sense to me ---- with the engine unloaded,
clutch in, it should take very few cfm to run it up to redline and it certainly shouldn't
need 22 pounds of boost to do it. I know you can build boost on an engine with an
automatic by loading it up against the brakes.

Can you elaborate or send a link to the web site for your system.

        Jim Berry
=======================================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Mikael Kenson <vr4@bahnhof.se>

> (Sorry for the late reply)
> Most aftermarket ECU's have support for Anti lag and launch control.
>
> The Autronic I use have Anti lag and it works great. The Autronic also has an unique cool down function so it won't be as harmfull
to the turbos as most other systems are.
>
> I can build 1,5 bar of boost standing still just by pressing a switch :) and I set the launch control to a specific RPM to help
the launch. The boost stays at 1,5 bar between every gear change. The car takes off incredibly quick with this setup BUT the
transfercase can't take the punishment at the drag strip so don't try this at home folks. (I know this because my brand new transfer
case broke in two pieces after the second start...)
>
> These cars will never be real quick until we find an alternative to the damn Getrag transfer case...
>
> /Mikael Kenson (will this car ever hold for 402 meters so I can get a nice timeslip?)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Oleg Reznik" <Oleg@3000gt.lv>
>
> > Hello guys,
> >
> > Anyone experiment with some kind of anti lag system?
> > Today I drove Rally EVO5  - as passenger of course. The car was equiped with
> > system, which change ignition in 1 or 2 cilinders in shifting moments and
> > hold boost all the time. The driver can switch on/off the system at any
> > point.
> > When the car to be at a stop, switching ON system  - REVchange to 3000-4000,
> > the car "shoot" and the boost going up and stop at apr. 1.5 bar. (1.7 is
> > max. for this car)
> > The question is: can we use some kind of anti lag systems on our cars? I
> > know it's very bad for turbos, in rally they change it every year, but they
> > drive hard and long.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Oleg Reznik
> > 3SI#0441
> > www.3000gt.lv

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:46:02 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

"Actually the wheels don't have to be the same F/R on AWD. Just the
rolling diameter of the tires needs to be very close."

Hmmmm.  I heard differently but that is for another thread.

Didn't this wheel topic come up before with someone who had three 5-spoke
wheels and one 5-spoke wheel but they were not all the same?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lucius
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:38 AM

TT Stealths had different wheels on the left and right as far as
spoke patterns. The wheels themselves are interchangeable, but could
look wierd if one left and right were switched (I haven't looked to
see if they are stamped L and R). The VR4 wheels on the Team3S FAQ
page *look* symmetrical though wrt spokes. Why would they be marked
(stamped?) L and R?

Actually the wheels don't have to be the same F/R on AWD. Just the
rolling diameter of the tires needs to be very close.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:05:06 +0300
From: "Oleg-3000GT" <oleg@3000gt.lv>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anti lag system

Hello Michael,

Why you can't launch and shifting with 0.5-0.7 boost only? I think it will
be not so dangerous for Getrag. And how much is this ECU and installing in
Sweden?There are no shops in Riga who sell this:(( May be we can instal it,
but tune... I doubt.

Regards,

Oleg Reznik

(Sorry for the late reply)
Most aftermarket ECU's have support for Anti lag and launch control.

The Autronic I use have Anti lag and it works great. The Autronic also has
an unique cool down function so it won't be as harmfull to the turbos as
most other systems are.

I can build 1,5 bar of boost standing still just by pressing a switch :) and
I set the launch control to a specific RPM to help the launch. The boost
stays at 1,5 bar between every gear change. The car takes off incredibly
quick with this setup BUT the transfercase can't take the punishment at the
drag strip so don't try this at home folks. (I know this because my brand
new transfer case broke in two pieces after the second start...)

These cars will never be real quick until we find an alternative to the damn
Getrag transfer case...

/Mikael Kenson (will this car ever hold for 402 meters so I can get a nice
timeslip?)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Oleg Reznik" <Oleg@3000gt.lv>

> Hello guys,
>
> Anyone experiment with some kind of anti lag system?
> Today I drove Rally EVO5  - as passenger of course. The car was equiped
with
> system, which change ignition in 1 or 2 cilinders in shifting moments and
> hold boost all the time. The driver can switch on/off the system at any
> point.
> When the car to be at a stop, switching ON system  - REVchange to
3000-4000,
> the car "shoot" and the boost going up and stop at apr. 1.5 bar. (1.7 is
> max. for this car)
> The question is: can we use some kind of anti lag systems on our cars? I
> know it's very bad for turbos, in rally they change it every year, but
they
> drive hard and long.
>
> Regards,
> Oleg Reznik
> 3SI#0441
> www.3000gt.lv

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:55:18 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

These are stock 1st gen wheels, both chrome and (painted?) Aluminium.  There
is a little L or R cast into the outboard side of the wheel, I think it was
near the valve stem.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 9:25 AM
> To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels
>
> Chuck,
>
>    Make sure those are cast or forged in there.  Maybe the dealer or
> former
> owner marked them for his own reference.  There should be no reason why
> they
> are left and right since all four wheels must be the same in the AWD
> models.
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Willis, Charles E.
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:18 AM
>
> Dear pals,
>
> After four years of juggling 1st generation 17" VR4 wheels, my wife
> pointed
> out that some are marked "R" and some are marked "L".  We have always used
> them interchangeably.  There is no such marking on the 2nd generation 17"
> VR4 wheels, so far as I can tell (of course I went four years without
> seeing
> it on the other wheels).
>
> Anybody know if there is ANY other real difference between "L" and "R"
> wheels, besides the mark?
>
> Chuck (bifocals really make a difference) Willis

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:58:32 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

I'll take a picture and post it ...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 9:43 AM
> To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels
>
> Incidentally ... I assumed you were looking on the inside of the spokes
> since this is the only place where markings are on the wheels.
>
> My spare 1995 VR-4 wheel (6-spoke 18" chrome) has the following markings
> on
> the inside of the spokes:
>    First spoke - Mitsu diamond and letters "GB"
>    Second spoke - A funny little symbol like a letter "N"
>    Third spoke - "18x8 1/2J  46"
>    Fourth spoke - "SD3B  2"
>    Fifth spoke - (blank)
>    Sixth spoke - "MITSUBISHI"
>
>
> Then on the 1999 3000GT 17" SL wheels they read:
>    First spoke - A funny little symbol like a chain link
>    Second spoke - "MITSUBISHI" and Mitsu diamond
>    Third spoke - A circle with a "9" then a horizontal line then a "96"
>    Fourth spoke - "17x8 1/2J  1  HN"
>    Fifth spoke - (blank)
>    Sixth spoke - "46  PC  10" (the "PC" is in a small box)
>
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren Schilberg
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:25 AM
>
> Chuck,
>
>    Make sure those are cast or forged in there.  Maybe the dealer or
> former
> owner marked them for his own reference.  There should be no reason why
> they
> are left and right since all four wheels must be the same in the AWD
> models.
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:05:36 +0200
From: "Mikael Kenson" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anti lag system

Doesn't it make sense? Imagine this: Standing at the starting line, you have the gas pedal in the floor and the launch control holds the RPM at exactly what you have set it to. Turbos builds boost up to 1,5 bar (or what ever) When the lights turn green you dump the clutch and the ECU jumps out of launch and ALS mode and you take off harder than you ever have done before with absolutely no "bog" at all. Does that make sense? Instead of the around 200 HP you have without boost you take of with 400HP (or something like that) It sure makes a big difference.

The ALS has nothing to do with loading the engine like the auto guys do, it's allot easier than that. Press the ALS switch and the ignition turns extremely low and the ECU adds 30-50% fuel, this will make the combustion move out in the headers and "kick" the turbos so they build boost without load. As soon as you dump the cutch the ECU jumps back into it's normal program and off you go like if you had a 200 shot of NOS installed :) Remember this is nothing new, this have been used on the rally cars for many years now. These systems can't be recommended for daily street use, however most of the quick street cars in Sweden uses it (Mitsu Evo's, Subarus WRX/STI, Ford Cosworth etc etc)

/Mikael
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
To: "Mikael Kenson" <vr4@bahnhof.se>; <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>; "Oleg Reznik" <Oleg@3000gt.lv>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anti lag system

> Holding 1.5 bar with the clutch in makes no sense to me ---- with the engine unloaded,
> clutch in, it should take very few cfm to run it up to redline and it certainly shouldn't
> need 22 pounds of boost to do it. I know you can build boost on an engine with an
> automatic by loading it up against the brakes.
>
> Can you elaborate or send a link to the web site for your system.
>
>         Jim Berry
> =======================================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mikael Kenson <vr4@bahnhof.se>
>
> > (Sorry for the late reply)
> > Most aftermarket ECU's have support for Anti lag and launch control.
> >
> > The Autronic I use have Anti lag and it works great. The Autronic also has an unique cool down function so it won't be as harmfull
> to the turbos as most other systems are.
> >
> > I can build 1,5 bar of boost standing still just by pressing a switch :) and I set the launch control to a specific RPM to help
> the launch. The boost stays at 1,5 bar between every gear change. The car takes off incredibly quick with this setup BUT the
> transfercase can't take the punishment at the drag strip so don't try this at home folks. (I know this because my brand new transfer
> case broke in two pieces after the second start...)
> >
> > These cars will never be real quick until we find an alternative to the damn Getrag transfer case...
> >
> > /Mikael Kenson (will this car ever hold for 402 meters so I can get a nice timeslip?)
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Oleg Reznik" <Oleg@3000gt.lv>
> >
> > > Hello guys,
> > >
> > > Anyone experiment with some kind of anti lag system?
> > > Today I drove Rally EVO5  - as passenger of course. The car was equiped with
> > > system, which change ignition in 1 or 2 cilinders in shifting moments and
> > > hold boost all the time. The driver can switch on/off the system at any
> > > point.
> > > When the car to be at a stop, switching ON system  - REVchange to 3000-4000,
> > > the car "shoot" and the boost going up and stop at apr. 1.5 bar. (1.7 is
> > > max. for this car)
> > > The question is: can we use some kind of anti lag systems on our cars? I
> > > know it's very bad for turbos, in rally they change it every year, but they
> > > drive hard and long.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Oleg Reznik
> > > 3SI#0441
> > > www.3000gt.lv

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:26:34 -0700
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

To Everyone,
If you look closely, you will see that the right and left wheels are
different in that the spokes are shaped differently. They have an edge on
them similar to a fan blade, that is opposite on the L/R. I believe this is
for brake venting purposes.

Wayne

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:27:30 -0700
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

Of course i was referring to the 3000 wheels, not the stealths

To Everyone,
If you look closely, you will see that the right and left wheels are
different in that the spokes are shaped differently. They have an edge on
them similar to a fan blade, that is opposite on the L/R. I believe this is
for brake venting purposes.

Wayne

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:15:21 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anti lag system

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Mikael Kenson <vr4@bahnhof.se>

>The ALS has nothing to do with loading the engine like the auto guys do, it's allot easier than that.
>Press the ALS switch and the ignition turns extremely low and the ECU adds 30-50% fuel, this >will make the combustion move out in
the headers and "kick" the turbos so they build boost >without load.

Yikes ---- sounds like it might be a little tough on the turbos if repeated too often.
As a matter of fact in a race [ road course ] it sounds like you could melt down
your exhaust system if you over-used the system. For race teams it isn't a big
deal, they seem to rebuild the engine every 10 minutes anyway.

I found a web site that seems to have the system you're talking about and just
started to look it over --- how much trouble have you had setting up the system
for your car.

        Jim Berry

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:59:14 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels

I'll look closer, but the spokes look the same to me.  I'll put my bifocals
on this time and take a picture.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne [SMTP:whietala@prodigy.net]
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:28 AM
> To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: stupid ? 1st Gen VR4 wheels
>
> Of course i was referring to the 3000 wheels, not the stealths
>
> To Everyone,
> If you look closely, you will see that the right and left wheels are
> different in that the spokes are shaped differently. They have an edge on
> them similar to a fan blade, that is opposite on the L/R. I believe this
> is
> for brake venting purposes.
>
> Wayne

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:44:18 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Team3s: Car lost acceleration

Oops.  Thanks, Erik.  Is it Monday already?

Lisa -- Disregard my post.  Let's see ... how about the MAS then since we
all have one of those (sheepish apology).

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 (turbo)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gross, Erik [mailto:erik.gross@intel.com]
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 12:40 PM
To: 'dschilberg@pobox.com'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Team3s: Car lost acceleration

Hey Darren,
I think she has a NA car =)  She must be really confused ;P

- --Erik

> Try accelerating under boost and see if it works.  Then get
> it above boost
> and see what happens.  If it is boost that is getting lost
> then one of those
> turbo or intercooler hoses have popped off and anything else
> is going to be
> something else ... hopefully still not expensive.
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4

> >I recently purchased a 93 Stealth R/T (about 63000 miles) a
> few weeks ago.
> >While I was driving (doing about 50 mph in 4th), the RPM
> gauge suddenly
> >went to 0 and the engine sounded like it was idling.  I tried to
> >accelerate but there was no response from the engine
> whatsoever.  I was
> >able to downshift to 3rd and 2nd and heard the engine revs
> go up, but the
> >RPMs gauge still read 0.  Once again I tried to accelerate
> but the engine
> >still did not respond.  At about 10 mph, the engine died and
> I coasted to
> >a stop.  The car did not start and I am not sure what I
> should check now
> >before I bring it to a mechanic (I changed the engine fuse
> but that didn't
> >do anything).  Any idea as to whether it could be electronic
> (O2 sensor)
> >or a fuel pump.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Lisa

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:49:15 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Use cooked R4S pads on the street?

> ... and I would suggest that you keep the cryo rotors for the
> track so that we can start to diagnose if our brakes are
> warping them or if it is the fact that they are enduring street
> and track uses and trying to meet halfway in the middle.
> You can be our test as most of us keep the same rotors on all
> season until they need turned.

Ok, that's what I've done - the PF cryo'd rotors are safely boxed and placed
flat on a shelf in my garage.  Any special storing instructions?  The used
R4S pads are also boxed.  Putting the stock brakes back on took all of about
45 minutes, and I was taking my time :)  BTW, I have stock pads on the rear
(used at the track, too), and they don't seem to wear much at all.  I missed
my R4S pads on the St. Helens drive this weekend - they have a noticeably
better coefficient of friction... 

> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4 with cryo front rotors (warped) and previous R4-S
> pads for street and track have finally worn thin after three
> events and 6 months

Arg... *3* events!  No fair - I only got *1*.  Gotta keep 'em cooler and get
the BRs...  and maybe learn how to drive =)

- --Erik

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #584
***************************************