team3s           Thursday, October 26 2000           Volume 01 : Number 306




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:31:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: stabilizer bars

As located within the team3s archives  (useful..use them)

- ---
> Does anyone have any experience or opinions concerning the Addco
> anti-sway bars on our cars? Addco front bar is 1" (stock bar is
> 0.91"), for what I calculate as a 54% increase in stiffness
> using the D^4 rule. Addco rear bar (for FWD only?) is 0.875"
> (stock is 0.86"), for a 7% increase in stiffness.
http://www.team3s.com
- ---


On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 BHurvitz@aol.com wrote:

> Does any one out there known the diameter of our front and rear stabilzer
> bars. I was thinking of upgrading to the Addco, but I am not to sure of the
> gain that I would obtain. Interested in some feed back.
> Thanks
> Bob 91TT
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***
>



- -------------------------------------------------------------
|    The proven method to make a Supra race worthy, is to   |
|   strip it down, and shove as many $20 bills as possible  |
|            within the cavity of the car itself.           |
- -------------------------------------------------------------


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:04:23 -0700
From: Richard <radanc@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Rotor Question

We should all clarify that warped rotors and grooved rotors are not one
and the same thing. I have had rotors warp, but were crystal smooth and
couldn't be turned since the problem was heat warpage and not surface
damage to the disk. In wimpier cars with inferior quality rotors this is
common. Turning can only be done to a certain point, and is done to
remove imperfections in the surface that create variable pad surface
contact. If there is enough warping, no amount of turning will correct
the problem except replacing the disks.

Rich
92 Stealth TT

"Willis, Charles E." wrote:
>
> Yeah, we replaced all the items listed.  It is relatively easy and
> inexpensive to pull the rotors and have them turned.  That eliminates one
> possible cause.  Pull all four if you want.  The frustrating thing is that
> it is usually triggered by braking, but you might notice it slightly as you
> accellerate through a given speed, like 75 mph, you might also feel it on
> turning where you hold a steering input and the car strains against it.
> Everything we did, turning rotors, replacing pads, replacing hubs and
> bearings (front and rear), meticulously balancing wheels, made it better,
> but didn't eliminate it.  It was also less severe with track wheels and
> tires than for stock (heavy) wheels and tires.  We switched tires and wheels
> from one VR4 to another without effect.  I think there is a front CV joint
> that was once mentioned as a potential source of the problem.  The car was
> worked on by three different dealerships in two states without resolving it.
>
> I would dearly love to know how to fix it!
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DKoenigs@aol.com [SMTP:DKoenigs@aol.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:11 AM
> > To:   cewillis@texaschildrenshospital.org; shmacker@home.com;
> > stealth@stls.verio.net; team3s@mail.stealth-3000gt.st
> > Subject:      RE: Team3S: Warped Rotor Question
> >
> > I assume that you are sure "what it isn't" because you have replaced these
> >
> > items listed.
> >
> > The condition described still sounds like warped rotors to me.  Why not a
> > constant vibration?  It depends on the location of the warp of both rotors
> >
> > when the brakes are applied.  If "in sync" the vibration is severe as both
> >
> > wheels are affected.  If "out of sync" the two can actually cancel each
> > other
> > out and the vibration is much less severe to hardly noticeable.  For
> > example
> > if the right rotor warp is in a position that would cause the caliper to
> > travel outboard (or to the right) at the same time the left rotor warp is
> > in
> > a position to pull the left caliper outbaound (or to the left) the result
> > is
> > a nearly neutral vibration.
> >
> > Also mentioned in one of the responses is that a condition in the rear of
> > the
> > car does not usually present itself in the steering wheel.  That is true
> > most
> > of the time, HOWEVER it can and somtimes does.  Bottom line here is don't
> > overlook the rear as a source of your vibration.
> >
> > Don
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 23:03:31 EDT
From: Klusmanp@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: 4-wheel lockup warning?

You might have stripped the splines on the shaft that inputs to the transfer
case. This will cause loss of power to the rear wheels and may cause damage
to the viscous coupler. Is your shuddering from the engine hesitating or are
you getting some loud mechanical vibration-like noise? I have been told that
stripping this shaft will cause a horrible noise.

If the shaft is stripped, Kormex sells replacements that are hardened for
about $500 per set: male output shaft from transaxle and matching female
input sleeve for the transfer case. A good tranny shop should be able to do
the repair with these parts (can't get them from Mitsubishi - they will sell
you a whole new transaxle and transfer case, though).

Paul Klusman

In a message dated 10/25/00 8:47:05 PM EST, tt007ken@yahoo.com writes:

<< Hello all,
 
 I was driving my TT today and the back end broke loose on a left turn
 accel.  Immediately following, there started this hard hard shuddering
 whenever I try to accel.  Any ideas??
 
 Ken
 '91 TT >>

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:37:36 -0700
From: "Chris Maxwell" <shmacker@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: 95% IDC at idle...

Recently I've been having some TERRIBLE gas mileage, accompanied by a strong
gas smell at idle and especially right after I start the car. Well I just
installed an AVC-R and noticed that the IDC at idle was 95% and would drop
when I apply the throttle. This isn't supposed to happen, right?

Well, I guess the most likely cause is bad o2 sensors, but right about the
time that I had this problem, I swapped my Blitz BOV with a friend's Apex
BOV. Could this possibly be the cause of the problem, like perhaps the BOV
is installed incorrectly or is malfunctioning? It doesn't sound like it is
malfunctioning, but these cars are tricky.

Any other suggestions are welcome.

Thanks,
Chris
92 R/T TT



***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 23:05:47 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 95% IDC at idle...

> Recently I've been having some TERRIBLE gas mileage,
> accompanied by a strong gas smell at idle and
> especially right after I start the car. Well I
> just installed an AVC-R and noticed that the IDC
> at idle was 95% and would drop when I apply the
> throttle. This isn't supposed to happen, right?

Hmm, you could check the throttle position sensor voltage at the ECU and
make sure that's within spec.  Also check the idle position switch (same
device).  That's really the only thing that should toggle on/off or change
value when you push the throttle a bit.  I'm not sure how it could be out of
adjustment or bad and cause those symptoms, but at least it is fairly easy
to test.

If you are at 95% idc at idle I don't think the car would run though - that
should be way* too rich.  I know the fuel pressure is really low at idle,
but still - that seems like it would flood the motor pretty quickly.

On the BOV question, usually if they go "bad" or something it'll suck air in
(if the spring is broken/weak or whatever) so then your mixture would be
extra rich since less air would flow through the MAF to be metered.

Strange problem though.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:22:15 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: BOV and Misfiring!

You can listen, or use my favorite --- carburetor cleaner.

ATTENTION == you may burn your car to the ground --- I spray small
amounts of carb cleaner around hose connection  and listen for changes
in engine rpm, if fluid is sucked into the manifold a momentary rich
condition exists and causes the engine to stumble. You can also use
water [ from a spray bottle ] but the affect isn't as dramatic.

        Jim berry    [ keep a hose handy if you use carb cleaner ]
================================================

From: Dan Erick (3SI #889) <ttstealth@hotmail.com>
To: <fastmax@home.com>; <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>

> Hmm, how do I check for a vacuum leak? People have told me to do that to
> remedy several of my problems and I've visually inspected all of them as
> best I can. What else should I try?
>
> Dan
>
>
> >From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
> >
> >Dan
> >
> >The Bov sound only lasts for a second ----- you might be hearing a
> >vacuum leak. Check your hoses, that might also account for the
> >misfire although a bad leak could cause multiple problems.


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 23:34:10 -0500
From: "Vineet Singh \(3S\)" <stealthtt@ecanfix.com>
Subject: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as well.

I recently made a boost tester, one for each of my cars (DSM and 3/S),
similar to the ones that people post. It's basically a *PVC endcap, a
silicon IC coupling, and an NPT fitting I can hook up my air hose to.
I have a regulator, so nothing blows up :) Be careful if you build
your own, wear some sort of eye/face protection, and watch the boost
gauge as well as what the regulator says.

*For the 3/S cars, I think it's a "T 2.25" fitting, endcap (doesn't
have to be threaded, but you must use PVC cement), and two lengths of
2.25" (I think) PVC tubing. Totaling about 13" in length. It fits
where your MAF tube and initial rubber piece is. You must remove the
metal fittings inside the tubes that go to each turbo, but the stock
clamps should hold fine. You drill the end cap on the T, and tap
threads for a male NPT fitting into it (use Teflon tape to seal).

I've tested about 12-15 cars (local chi-dsm'rs come over and test
usually), and I can't believe that all except ONE car we have tested
has had a 3 to 15 psi leak somewhere, usually where no one thought to
check. Most leaks seem to occur in THESE places, in order of most
overlooked.

BLOW OFF VALVE. These often leak over *7 psi. I guess if its a 1g DSM
BOV, you crush it so that it holds more than 19psi (These are not
exact numbers, your results may vary). If it's aftermarket, you adjust
it, or buy another one. If it's *stock, I guarantee that it leaks.

TURBO OUTLET ELBOW / J PIPE. Make sure you have a new gasket (O-RING
on the 3/S's) in there, and that the mating surfaces are clean. If you
have an aftermarket J pipe, I don't know what the remedy is, I will
assume a thin layer of RTV will hold well. MAKE SURE you DON'T tighten
TOO much, as the compressor housing you are screwing into is aluminum
(soft). Also make sure that the flange of the aftermarket pipe is
perfectly flat. It's very easy to warp something when welding. On the
3/S cars, the rear turbo can leak. Stupid design IMO. A new O-RING is
usually required, some RTV doesn't hurt either.

HOSES. Hoses off the throttle body or intake plenum, in various
places, can be unhooked, deteriorated, installed wrong, or have slits
in them (especially the ends, where people try to pry them off, and
cut a small slit to remove them, then reuse them.) I would install a
fresh set of silicon hoses with a fat wall (so they don't collapse
under vacuum) on any car over ~4 years old. The engine compartments
are kinda toasty, does wonders for rubber :)

IC PIPE COUPLINGS. These are irritating. You can't usually tell
visually if they leak or not. Factory ones are usually great, but
aftermarket? Man, I've seen some funny shit installed. The worst
things are those plumbing hardware, pure rubber ones. These have no
braided reinforcements/webbing, so they pretty much expand like
balloons. 20psi, with the engine moving back and forth in the engine
compartment between shifts, makes these rip/pop/slip off. Even the HKS
couplings, the orange ones, have had problems with chaffing. As the
engine moves, it flexes, over time, and with boost, it rips through
the rubber/silicon/thread reinforcement, and creates an invisible
(mostly) leak. Ahmed's 3000gt had a leak at the factory plastic
Y-pipe, the rubber o-ring was deformed, and it created a massive leak.
Possibly, this is what caused TWO sets of UPGRADE turbos to fail, I
feel for you Ahmed, whats up with your car now?

INJECTOR O-RINGS. The rings that insulate the TIP of the injector that
goes into the intake plenum. Over time, they get hard as rocks, and
just don't seal anymore. I've seen two cars that leak at this point,
my Stealth included. This could also be a somewhat dangerous problem,
if fuel were to somehow reverse (with a large leak), and spray out
around the injector.

LEAKS FROM HARD PIPES, AND IC. Rare, but can't overlook them. The
leaks usually occur at weld points, but on some factory intercoolers,
the pipe that goes up top into the engine compartment, it can corrode,
and you end up with pin holes. Not a large leak source, but still need
attention. JB weld on the OUTSIDE, followed with a proper
primer/paint, will take care of the problem. Ricky had a new GREDDY
FMIC, and it had a defect in the MIG/TIG weld on one of the in/out
elbows. Right where the welding was started and ended, it didn't quite
meet, and he ended up with a visible hole, which leaked about 5-8 psi
at 25. Again, JB weld fixed this easily. JB weld will work for up to
~1/4" size holes, any larger than that, and you end up with too much
"psi" pushing on the large JB weld surface area. Avoid repairs from
the inside, as it can fall off, then it may go through the engine.
Just confirmed another Greddy FMIC owner having the same problem...
and Greddy won't do anything about it.

BOOST GAUGE COUPLINGS. Often, weird plastic hoses/tees/fittings are
used to connect boost gauges. These have been known to leak, but not
significant amounts. However, it may cause a faulty boost reading
(lower than what it really is).

LEAKS FROM THROTTLE BODY GASKETS, AND ASSOCIATED PARTS. Only Ken's car
had this. The ISC on his throttle body had no gasket, and just leaked
everywhere around it. He also had an IC coupling with a leak. I'm
amazed he even had boost and ran the quick/fast numbers he did!

Make your own tester, or find someone that has one, and get your stuff
tested. You might be surprised to find that your turbo(s) have been
working superduty to overcome a leak.

This is a link to someone's boost tester, mine is different, but I'm
sure they all work the same,

http://www.nx2k.com/eclipse/pressuretesterpage.htm

Vineet Singh
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With Class!"
http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM & 3/S Service manuals on CDROM





***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 22:00:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as well.

Let me be the first to say..

Kick ass.

This tester..you find a way to seal it into the pipe leading to the
turbo..yes?  Then the system will be sealed?

I guess I get lost when I think about valves that are in a position as to
let boost into and out of a cylinder (overlap).

On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Vineet Singh (3S) wrote:

> I recently made a boost tester, one for each of my cars (DSM and 3/S),
> similar to the ones that people post. It's basically a *PVC endcap, a
> silicon IC coupling, and an NPT fitting I can hook up my air hose to.
> I have a regulator, so nothing blows up :) Be careful if you build
> your own, wear some sort of eye/face protection, and watch the boost
> gauge as well as what the regulator says.
>
> *For the 3/S cars, I think it's a "T 2.25" fitting, endcap (doesn't
> have to be threaded, but you must use PVC cement), and two lengths of
> 2.25" (I think) PVC tubing. Totaling about 13" in length. It fits
> where your MAF tube and initial rubber piece is. You must remove the
> metal fittings inside the tubes that go to each turbo, but the stock
> clamps should hold fine. You drill the end cap on the T, and tap
> threads for a male NPT fitting into it (use Teflon tape to seal).
>
> I've tested about 12-15 cars (local chi-dsm'rs come over and test
> usually), and I can't believe that all except ONE car we have tested
> has had a 3 to 15 psi leak somewhere, usually where no one thought to
> check. Most leaks seem to occur in THESE places, in order of most
> overlooked.
>
> BLOW OFF VALVE. These often leak over *7 psi. I guess if its a 1g DSM
> BOV, you crush it so that it holds more than 19psi (These are not
> exact numbers, your results may vary). If it's aftermarket, you adjust
> it, or buy another one. If it's *stock, I guarantee that it leaks.
>
> TURBO OUTLET ELBOW / J PIPE. Make sure you have a new gasket (O-RING
> on the 3/S's) in there, and that the mating surfaces are clean. If you
> have an aftermarket J pipe, I don't know what the remedy is, I will
> assume a thin layer of RTV will hold well. MAKE SURE you DON'T tighten
> TOO much, as the compressor housing you are screwing into is aluminum
> (soft). Also make sure that the flange of the aftermarket pipe is
> perfectly flat. It's very easy to warp something when welding. On the
> 3/S cars, the rear turbo can leak. Stupid design IMO. A new O-RING is
> usually required, some RTV doesn't hurt either.
>
> HOSES. Hoses off the throttle body or intake plenum, in various
> places, can be unhooked, deteriorated, installed wrong, or have slits
> in them (especially the ends, where people try to pry them off, and
> cut a small slit to remove them, then reuse them.) I would install a
> fresh set of silicon hoses with a fat wall (so they don't collapse
> under vacuum) on any car over ~4 years old. The engine compartments
> are kinda toasty, does wonders for rubber :)
>
> IC PIPE COUPLINGS. These are irritating. You can't usually tell
> visually if they leak or not. Factory ones are usually great, but
> aftermarket? Man, I've seen some funny shit installed. The worst
> things are those plumbing hardware, pure rubber ones. These have no
> braided reinforcements/webbing, so they pretty much expand like
> balloons. 20psi, with the engine moving back and forth in the engine
> compartment between shifts, makes these rip/pop/slip off. Even the HKS
> couplings, the orange ones, have had problems with chaffing. As the
> engine moves, it flexes, over time, and with boost, it rips through
> the rubber/silicon/thread reinforcement, and creates an invisible
> (mostly) leak. Ahmed's 3000gt had a leak at the factory plastic
> Y-pipe, the rubber o-ring was deformed, and it created a massive leak.
> Possibly, this is what caused TWO sets of UPGRADE turbos to fail, I
> feel for you Ahmed, whats up with your car now?
>
> INJECTOR O-RINGS. The rings that insulate the TIP of the injector that
> goes into the intake plenum. Over time, they get hard as rocks, and
> just don't seal anymore. I've seen two cars that leak at this point,
> my Stealth included. This could also be a somewhat dangerous problem,
> if fuel were to somehow reverse (with a large leak), and spray out
> around the injector.
>
> LEAKS FROM HARD PIPES, AND IC. Rare, but can't overlook them. The
> leaks usually occur at weld points, but on some factory intercoolers,
> the pipe that goes up top into the engine compartment, it can corrode,
> and you end up with pin holes. Not a large leak source, but still need
> attention. JB weld on the OUTSIDE, followed with a proper
> primer/paint, will take care of the problem. Ricky had a new GREDDY
> FMIC, and it had a defect in the MIG/TIG weld on one of the in/out
> elbows. Right where the welding was started and ended, it didn't quite
> meet, and he ended up with a visible hole, which leaked about 5-8 psi
> at 25. Again, JB weld fixed this easily. JB weld will work for up to
> ~1/4" size holes, any larger than that, and you end up with too much
> "psi" pushing on the large JB weld surface area. Avoid repairs from
> the inside, as it can fall off, then it may go through the engine.
> Just confirmed another Greddy FMIC owner having the same problem...
> and Greddy won't do anything about it.
>
> BOOST GAUGE COUPLINGS. Often, weird plastic hoses/tees/fittings are
> used to connect boost gauges. These have been known to leak, but not
> significant amounts. However, it may cause a faulty boost reading
> (lower than what it really is).
>
> LEAKS FROM THROTTLE BODY GASKETS, AND ASSOCIATED PARTS. Only Ken's car
> had this. The ISC on his throttle body had no gasket, and just leaked
> everywhere around it. He also had an IC coupling with a leak. I'm
> amazed he even had boost and ran the quick/fast numbers he did!
>
> Make your own tester, or find someone that has one, and get your stuff
> tested. You might be surprised to find that your turbo(s) have been
> working superduty to overcome a leak.
>
> This is a link to someone's boost tester, mine is different, but I'm
> sure they all work the same,
>
> http://www.nx2k.com/eclipse/pressuretesterpage.htm
>
> Vineet Singh
> http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With Class!"
> http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM & 3/S Service manuals on CDROM
>
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***
>



- -------------------------------------------------------------
|    The proven method to make a Supra race worthy, is to   |
|   strip it down, and shove as many $20 bills as possible  |
|            within the cavity of the car itself.           |
- -------------------------------------------------------------


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:00:56 -0400
From: "Kevin" <Kevin@pacarsearch.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as well.

I just made a tester a few weeks ago out of aluminum.  Mine fits where the
MAF plugged into the rubber "T"  I believe the diameter is right around
4".... 3.90" rings a bell.  Do not use too much pressure as stated before, I
had mine blow off at about 20 PSI.  A 4" piece of PVC would work fine.  The
only leak I found was on my TurboXS BOV, and it was around the hose
fittings, not the actual poppet valve.  If anyone is in the Eastern PA area,
feel free to contact me, we can hook it up and test your car.

Later,


Kevin Schappell

Learn more about your car
http://www.AutoEducation.com

Online Mobile Audio SuperStore
http://mobilesounds.vstorecar.com

3SI members.... you have to see this page
http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead/mitsu2.htm
http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead
- ------------Still under construction---------------
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: Vineet Singh (3S) <stealthtt@ecanfix.com>
Cc: Team3S <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as well.




***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:04:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: 4pt harness..where?

Where would I find a nice 4pt harness for my Supra and MR-S?

Both have 4pt designed seats.

Thanks



- -------------------------------------------------------------
|    The proven method to make a Supra race worthy, is to   |
|   strip it down, and shove as many $20 bills as possible  |
|            within the cavity of the car itself.           |
- -------------------------------------------------------------


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:34:10 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 4-wheel lockup warning?

Ouch!  Sounds like a problem I had with a worn out constant velocity joint
on a 1963 Chrysler 300! 

Have you ever drained and refilled the rear axle oil?  You can check the
level pretty easily, but if you drain it, you can see if there are a lot of
pieces of metal in the fluid.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Stanton [SMTP:tt007ken@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 8:47 PM
> To: Team3S Stealth
> Subject: Team3S: 4-wheel lockup warning?
>
> Hello all,
>
> I was driving my TT today and the back end broke loose on a left turn
> accel.  Immediately following, there started this hard hard shuddering
> whenever I try to accel.  Any ideas??
>
> Ken
> '91 TT
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:35:04 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 4-wheel lockup warning?

a much better answer!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Merritt [SMTP:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 8:59 PM
> To: Ken Stanton; Team3S Stealth
> Subject: Re: Team3S: 4-wheel lockup warning?
>
>
> >I was driving my TT today and the back end broke loose on a left turn
> >accel.  Immediately following, there started this hard hard shuddering
> >whenever I try to accel.  Any ideas??
> >
> Ken: You definitely broke something. Don't drive it any more than you have
> to. Put it up in the air and take a look underneath. I'd start by looking
> at all four half shafts, then the rear driveshaft. Turn the wheels by hand
> and listen for crunching and grinding noises. If you can isolate it down
> to
> something like a broken halfshaft or differential, you may be able to
> replace it yourself with new or used parts. I hope it's not the transfer
> case or tranny.
>
> Rich/old poop
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 06:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Location of oil pressure guage connection

Steve,

Please check out the Garage Page at my web site or go directly to the
url below.

http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/2-oilpresloc.htm

Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
  --> http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sullivan" <Sully@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 8:50 AM
Subject: Team3S: Location of oil pressure guage connection

After doing my 60k service I notice that my oil pressure guage reads
nothing.  I am guessing that I must have disconnected the electrical
connection to it somehow since when I look in the oil filler cap I
can see a good flow of oil. Anyone know where the connections for the
guage are?
Thanks in advance.

Steve


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:38:29 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Warped Rotor Question

There's another reason for turning the rotors, that's to remove the glaze
from the surface.  There are those who believe that the coefficient of
friction on the roughed up surface after turning is better than the
coefficient of friction against a glazed surface, even without any surface
imperfections.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard [SMTP:radanc@home.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:04 AM
> To: Willis, Charles E.
> Cc: 'DKoenigs@aol.com'; shmacker@home.com; stealth@stls.verio.net;
> team3s@mail.stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Warped Rotor Question
>
> We should all clarify that warped rotors and grooved rotors are not one
> and the same thing. I have had rotors warp, but were crystal smooth and
> couldn't be turned since the problem was heat warpage and not surface
> damage to the disk. In wimpier cars with inferior quality rotors this is
> common. Turning can only be done to a certain point, and is done to
> remove imperfections in the surface that create variable pad surface
> contact. If there is enough warping, no amount of turning will correct
> the problem except replacing the disks.
>
> Rich
> 92 Stealth TT
>
> "Willis, Charles E." wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, we replaced all the items listed.  It is relatively easy and
> > inexpensive to pull the rotors and have them turned.  That eliminates
> one
> > possible cause.  Pull all four if you want.  The frustrating thing is
> that
> > it is usually triggered by braking, but you might notice it slightly as
> you
> > accellerate through a given speed, like 75 mph, you might also feel it
> on
> > turning where you hold a steering input and the car strains against it.
> > Everything we did, turning rotors, replacing pads, replacing hubs and
> > bearings (front and rear), meticulously balancing wheels, made it
> better,
> > but didn't eliminate it.  It was also less severe with track wheels and
> > tires than for stock (heavy) wheels and tires.  We switched tires and
> wheels
> > from one VR4 to another without effect.  I think there is a front CV
> joint
> > that was once mentioned as a potential source of the problem.  The car
> was
> > worked on by three different dealerships in two states without resolving
> it.
> >
> > I would dearly love to know how to fix it!
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: DKoenigs@aol.com [SMTP:DKoenigs@aol.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:11 AM
> > > To:   cewillis@texaschildrenshospital.org; shmacker@home.com;
> > > stealth@stls.verio.net; team3s@mail.stealth-3000gt.st
> > > Subject:      RE: Team3S: Warped Rotor Question
> > >
> > > I assume that you are sure "what it isn't" because you have replaced
> these
> > >
> > > items listed.
> > >
> > > The condition described still sounds like warped rotors to me.  Why
> not a
> > > constant vibration?  It depends on the location of the warp of both
> rotors
> > >
> > > when the brakes are applied.  If "in sync" the vibration is severe as
> both
> > >
> > > wheels are affected.  If "out of sync" the two can actually cancel
> each
> > > other
> > > out and the vibration is much less severe to hardly noticeable.  For
> > > example
> > > if the right rotor warp is in a position that would cause the caliper
> to
> > > travel outboard (or to the right) at the same time the left rotor warp
> is
> > > in
> > > a position to pull the left caliper outbaound (or to the left) the
> result
> > > is
> > > a nearly neutral vibration.
> > >
> > > Also mentioned in one of the responses is that a condition in the rear
> of
> > > the
> > > car does not usually present itself in the steering wheel.  That is
> true
> > > most
> > > of the time, HOWEVER it can and somtimes does.  Bottom line here is
> don't
> > > overlook the rear as a source of your vibration.
> > >
> > > Don
> >
> > ***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:43:23 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 95% IDC at idle...

Be sure to recheck all the plumbing (air hoses) connections especially since
you swapped the "BOV".  You problem sounds amzingly like a problem I had
with my '91 GSX when somebody forgot to reconnect a hose to the intercooler.
The ECU can't correct for horrendous vacuum leaks and they manifest in weird
ways.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jannusch, Matt [SMTP:mjannusch@marketwatch.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 11:06 PM
> To: team3s@mail.stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: 95% IDC at idle...
>
> > Recently I've been having some TERRIBLE gas mileage,
> > accompanied by a strong gas smell at idle and
> > especially right after I start the car. Well I
> > just installed an AVC-R and noticed that the IDC
> > at idle was 95% and would drop when I apply the
> > throttle. This isn't supposed to happen, right?
>
> Hmm, you could check the throttle position sensor voltage at the ECU and
> make sure that's within spec.  Also check the idle position switch (same
> device).  That's really the only thing that should toggle on/off or change
> value when you push the throttle a bit.  I'm not sure how it could be out
> of
> adjustment or bad and cause those symptoms, but at least it is fairly easy
> to test.
>
> If you are at 95% idc at idle I don't think the car would run though -
> that
> should be way* too rich.  I know the fuel pressure is really low at idle,
> but still - that seems like it would flood the motor pretty quickly.
>
> On the BOV question, usually if they go "bad" or something it'll suck air
> in
> (if the spring is broken/weak or whatever) so then your mixture would be
> extra rich since less air would flow through the MAF to be metered.
>
> Strange problem though.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 06:27:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 4-wheel lockup warning?

Ken,

I have had the rear end come around on me also but there were no
problems afterwards. It sounds like a part needs some attention.
Along with the other advise given, you can take a look at my
"Illustrated Guide to the Mitsubishi 3000GT AWD System" at the url
below for some pictures and explanations of our setup. This is still
a work in progress so comments and corrections from anybody are
welcome. I do have an opened CD/VCU on the way from Kormex so that I
can take pictures. If you need repairs I heartily recommend Kormex as
your first choice. Frank has been very helpful to 3S owners.

http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/2-AWD.htm

Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
  --> http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stanton" <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
To: "Team3S Stealth" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 7:47 PM
Subject: Team3S: 4-wheel lockup warning?

Hello all,

I was driving my TT today and the back end broke loose on a left turn
accel.  Immediately following, there started this hard hard
shuddering
whenever I try to accel.  Any ideas??

Ken
'91 TT


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:10:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as well.

Thanks Vineet. Some pictures of this setup for 3S cars would be
helpful. Unlike our 4-cylinder DSM brothers, where 2 cylinders can be
at TDC and 2 at BDC and all valves closed, our 6-cylinder engines
always have at least 2 cylinders with intake and exhaust valves open.
In other words, at any given time there are only and always two
intake valves open.

So you pressurized the intake system/engine on your VR4 and it held,
not leaking past rings or spooling the turbos through the exhaust
valves?

I need to pressurize the intake system in my car to test for leaks
this winter. I was going to start right after the turbos (no pressure
before the turbos) and stop between the Y-pipe and TB. If that checks
out OK, then I was going to make some sort of sheet-metal/gasket
arrangement to block off the plenum at the manifold to check the
TB/hoses and plenum/hoses.

Has anybody else performed these tests on 3S cars? Comments and
advice before I undertake this would be appreciated.

Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
  --> http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Vineet Singh (3S)" <stealthtt@ecanfix.com>
To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:34 PM
Subject: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as
well.


I recently made a boost tester, one for each of my cars (DSM and
3/S),
similar to the ones that people post. It's basically a *PVC endcap, a
silicon IC coupling, and an NPT fitting I can hook up my air hose to.
I have a regulator, so nothing blows up :) Be careful if you build
your own, wear some sort of eye/face protection, and watch the boost
gauge as well as what the regulator says.

*For the 3/S cars, I think it's a "T 2.25" fitting, endcap (doesn't
have to be threaded, but you must use PVC cement), and two lengths of
2.25" (I think) PVC tubing. Totaling about 13" in length. It fits
where your MAF tube and initial rubber piece is. You must remove the
metal fittings inside the tubes that go to each turbo, but the stock
clamps should hold fine. You drill the end cap on the T, and tap
threads for a male NPT fitting into it (use Teflon tape to seal).

I've tested about 12-15 cars (local chi-dsm'rs come over and test
usually), and I can't believe that all except ONE car we have tested
has had a 3 to 15 psi leak somewhere, usually where no one thought to
check. Most leaks seem to occur in THESE places, in order of most
overlooked.

BLOW OFF VALVE. These often leak over *7 psi. I guess if its a 1g DSM
BOV, you crush it so that it holds more than 19psi (These are not
exact numbers, your results may vary). If it's aftermarket, you
adjust
it, or buy another one. If it's *stock, I guarantee that it leaks.

TURBO OUTLET ELBOW / J PIPE. Make sure you have a new gasket (O-RING
on the 3/S's) in there, and that the mating surfaces are clean. If
you
have an aftermarket J pipe, I don't know what the remedy is, I will
assume a thin layer of RTV will hold well. MAKE SURE you DON'T
tighten
TOO much, as the compressor housing you are screwing into is aluminum
(soft). Also make sure that the flange of the aftermarket pipe is
perfectly flat. It's very easy to warp something when welding. On the
3/S cars, the rear turbo can leak. Stupid design IMO. A new O-RING is
usually required, some RTV doesn't hurt either.

HOSES. Hoses off the throttle body or intake plenum, in various
places, can be unhooked, deteriorated, installed wrong, or have slits
in them (especially the ends, where people try to pry them off, and
cut a small slit to remove them, then reuse them.) I would install a
fresh set of silicon hoses with a fat wall (so they don't collapse
under vacuum) on any car over ~4 years old. The engine compartments
are kinda toasty, does wonders for rubber :)

IC PIPE COUPLINGS. These are irritating. You can't usually tell
visually if they leak or not. Factory ones are usually great, but
aftermarket? Man, I've seen some funny shit installed. The worst
things are those plumbing hardware, pure rubber ones. These have no
braided reinforcements/webbing, so they pretty much expand like
balloons. 20psi, with the engine moving back and forth in the engine
compartment between shifts, makes these rip/pop/slip off. Even the
HKS
couplings, the orange ones, have had problems with chaffing. As the
engine moves, it flexes, over time, and with boost, it rips through
the rubber/silicon/thread reinforcement, and creates an invisible
(mostly) leak. Ahmed's 3000gt had a leak at the factory plastic
Y-pipe, the rubber o-ring was deformed, and it created a massive
leak.
Possibly, this is what caused TWO sets of UPGRADE turbos to fail, I
feel for you Ahmed, whats up with your car now?

INJECTOR O-RINGS. The rings that insulate the TIP of the injector
that
goes into the intake plenum. Over time, they get hard as rocks, and
just don't seal anymore. I've seen two cars that leak at this point,
my Stealth included. This could also be a somewhat dangerous problem,
if fuel were to somehow reverse (with a large leak), and spray out
around the injector.

LEAKS FROM HARD PIPES, AND IC. Rare, but can't overlook them. The
leaks usually occur at weld points, but on some factory intercoolers,
the pipe that goes up top into the engine compartment, it can
corrode,
and you end up with pin holes. Not a large leak source, but still
need
attention. JB weld on the OUTSIDE, followed with a proper
primer/paint, will take care of the problem. Ricky had a new GREDDY
FMIC, and it had a defect in the MIG/TIG weld on one of the in/out
elbows. Right where the welding was started and ended, it didn't
quite
meet, and he ended up with a visible hole, which leaked about 5-8 psi
at 25. Again, JB weld fixed this easily. JB weld will work for up to
~1/4" size holes, any larger than that, and you end up with too much
"psi" pushing on the large JB weld surface area. Avoid repairs from
the inside, as it can fall off, then it may go through the engine.
Just confirmed another Greddy FMIC owner having the same problem...
and Greddy won't do anything about it.

BOOST GAUGE COUPLINGS. Often, weird plastic hoses/tees/fittings are
used to connect boost gauges. These have been known to leak, but not
significant amounts. However, it may cause a faulty boost reading
(lower than what it really is).

LEAKS FROM THROTTLE BODY GASKETS, AND ASSOCIATED PARTS. Only Ken's
car
had this. The ISC on his throttle body had no gasket, and just leaked
everywhere around it. He also had an IC coupling with a leak. I'm
amazed he even had boost and ran the quick/fast numbers he did!

Make your own tester, or find someone that has one, and get your
stuff
tested. You might be surprised to find that your turbo(s) have been
working superduty to overcome a leak.

This is a link to someone's boost tester, mine is different, but I'm
sure they all work the same,

http://www.nx2k.com/eclipse/pressuretesterpage.htm

Vineet Singh
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With Class!"
http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM & 3/S Service manuals on CDROM


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End of team3s V1 #306
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