Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth   Friday, February 20 2004   Volume 02 : Number 376
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:30:24 -0000
From: Kopsick Michael J Contr WRALC/LTET <>
Subject: Team3S: Transmission Fluid?
Ok guys the 94 3000 gt sl service manual says to use Diamond ATF SP or equivalent, whats an equivalent?  Do I have to get the trans fluid from the dealer?  I changed the filter in the trans and need to know what to put back in it...Thanks for the help..
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:11:21 +0100
Subject: Team3S: OBD2 Software with knock ?
I'm looking for a PC based OBD2 software that is able to show the extended OBD2 data set. I was not yet successful to find more than one maker that includes the knock sum. Any ideas ? Our cars do have the extended dataset available and I know how to activate it. But the softeare should do this by its own too.
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:41:13 +0000
Subject: Re: Team3S: OBD2 Software with knock ?
I use the software from Alex Pepper.  It is at:
He seems willing to put in custom support files for different cars to view extended data sets.  If you know how to do it on our cars, he'd probably be able to put it in the software.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:31:44 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <>
Subject: Team3S: Motor Mounts Update
Just a quick update on my in-progress motor mount replacement...
*  With good OEM tranny and motor mounts (left and right), there is zero weight on either of the roll stoppers (front and rear) with my engine.  If the engine needs to be moved to line up the cross pins in the roll stoppers, you can simply push/pull on the transfer case with one hand to position the engine.  The above applies to both OEM and 3SX Polyurethane mounts, as I've now done both.
*  The breakthrough (for me) for removing the rear roll stopper from the engine bay (once it was fully unbolted) was removing the rear turbo wastegate actuator.  It's only 2 bolts and a cotter pin, and it gives you a lot of extra clearance.  I also disconnected the rear turbo compressor inlet hose and the heater core hoses to make things easier.  Overall, not too bad.  Now that I know what needs to be moved/disconnected, replacing the rear motor mount isn't so daunting of a task :-)
- --Erik
'95 VR-4
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:54:12 -0500
From: Ted pangrace <>
Subject: Team3S: Brakes
There was good and bad info on brakes today.  Philip seams to be the best source for accuracy.
Here's my 2 cents.  I have been racing Porsches and instructing in them for 9 years.  Brakes need to be set up for how you use the car. Drilling and slotting on the street is for looks only.  Maybe they shed water better but that's all.  On the track you need to come up with a
plan for brake maintenance or it will be a very expensive sport.   My
experience taught me this:  1)Take time to cool them down after running hard or you will be buying a lot of rotors.  2) Don't turn them, pitch
them.  Thin discs warp fast.   3) There's always someone who cracks a
rotor at an event.  I have never seen a non-drilled or slotted rotor crack.  It is always the drilled rotor that fails and it can be catastrophic.  They crack right on the drill holes.  That's why I avoid drilling.  4)  I freeze my rotors.  Cryogenics has tripled the life of my rotors and saved me time and money.  It dosen't  look as cool though.
I did try drilling my name in my rotors once.  It works with the chicks!
Ted  93' Stealth
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:01:29 US/Central
Subject: Team3S: re:Stealth Keys
In the fall when I was away for school, I was trying to acquire copies of
my stealth keys.  The local Wal-mart and k-mart couldn't even make an
attempt.  The local hardware stores ruined several blanks and was finally
able to make a key to open my locks (good incase I locked my keys in the
car).  Finally I went to a dealer and they cut me a key from code.  This
key didn't even turn in the lock because my keys have worn down and the
tumblers (or whatever they would be called) have more or less worn with
it.  I was finally successful because the dealer copied my only key and
this one works.  This was a lot cheaper (at $2 a key versus the $10 i
think for the code keys that didn't even work).  Needless to say, I had 3
more keys made and tested in the parking lot of the dealership before I
Oh and while I'm posting....
My dad and I have done all the work on my car (mostly my dad with me
getting tools and etc.  He's the mechanic....), but now I moved 8 hours
away and i'm approaching 120k....yeah.  Also there are some minor things
that I want looked at because I know they are going to be expensive
repairs that are too complicated for me.  Anyway, I'm living in Cedar
Rapids, IA now, and was wondering if anyone can recommend a good mechanic
or shop that won't treat me like I'm stupid?
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:14:09 -0500
From: "The Furmans" <>
Subject: Re: Team3S: re:Stealth Keys
Jessica I am sure Rich Merritt will chime in shortly....  But you are in fact in luck you have a local bunch of hardcore 3Si folks out your way. Most of whom will prolly take you under their wing since you would be like a daughter to most of those old timers  :p  (Sorry Rich had to do it to ya)
Russ F
93 VR-4  Garrett GT 30R's and a few other things :)
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:59:12 -0600
From: "" <>
Subject: Re: Team3S: re:Stealth Keys
You are in the home of the Stealth Boys, the 3K community's most fabulous
support group.
We eat a lot of ribs at Al & Irene's, help each other out on projects like
yours, and share parts and tools.
If you don't want to get your hands greasy in a group 60K effort, there is
always Mike the Mechanic (also one of us Stealth Boys) who lives in Des
Moines and makes house calls. Contact him at to see what
he'll charge to do your 60K and various repairs. If you don't have a
garage, Mike can do the fixes in my garage. He will be A LOT cheaper than
anybody in town, and he actually knows what he is doing. 
I've copied the Stealth Boys on this message (see cc's).
I am off to Chicago for the next week, but I am certain that we can help
you out.
For gawd's sake, don't go to the local dealer! Ripoff city!
Denny's Mufflers (west side, 16th ave) is extremely good for exhaust,
suspension, brakes, and alignments. Ask for Rob or Mike. Tell'm Rich sent
Join us for ribs (on occasional Tuesdays at Al & Irene's) and tell us all
your woes. We have no female members of Stealth Boys any more -- not since
my daughter (91 Stealth TT) got preggers and dropped out.
Rich/slow old poop
94 VR4/currently engineless
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:13:31 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Jeff & Debby Kelley" <>
Subject: Team3S: Car Won't Start
 Hi:   It's been a while since I have contacted anyone.
 Problem :  Car turns over, no spark to plugs.
 I pulled out the ECU and it looks brand new, no smell
 or even any seepage from the caps.
 I just bought this car and drove it up from Texas.
 It ran beautiful the whole 2500 miles.
 Any suggestions.. It seems the coil wouldn't be bad
 since it has 3 on it. 
 It's a 1992 Mits. 3000GT SL Red  DOHC
 Only 75,000 on it.   Unfortunately, I don't know what
 all has been done to it.  I pulled The cover off the
 timing belt and it looks brand new, the guy I bought it
 from said it had the 60,000 done but I wanted to make sure.
 Also  at 110  it drove smooth and only 3000 rpm.  My wife
 was asleep and never knew I was driving tha fast. 
 Thanks For any Advice!
   sold my 93 Base Stealth in Aug. last year
   But I'm hooked and had to get another,
   well,  better one ,  3000 GT SL
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:26:25 -0500
From: "Dan Labonte" <>
Subject: Re: Team3S: A challenge
Developing a control algorithum would be a piece of cake.  There are some
really simple PIDs that can be used on an 8-bit PIC micro.  But I am not
giving it away for only $50 so someone else can make a product and make
money off it.  It the guy is writing his own code tell him to go look in the
Circuit Cellar archives.
Dan Labonte
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:29:48 -0600
From: "Jesse Rink" <>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Car Won't Start
I'm assuming you checked spark by pulling off the wires from the coils and
cranking the engine, right? No spark at all in the coils? The first thing to
check would be the Power Transistor Unit or ECU (even if the caps aren't
leaking).  I believe the service manual explains how to test the PTU.
There's gotta be a way to check to see if the ECU is trigging voltage at the
transistor to turn it on and off. With the rapid rate it does this though to
charge the ign coils, I'd imagine the only effective way to read this value
would be with an oscillisope. You probably won't be able to determine squat
with a standard voltmeter. I've heard of several people with bad PTUs
causing the problem of no spark, but the same thing can be said of the ECU
as the culprit.
Actually, another thing worth trying is replacing your ECU/PTU with a known
good unit from someones car.  If I remember correctly, the PTU is the same
on ALL DOHC cars 91-99.  ECU is obviously different.
Oh. and check fuses too... you'd be very surprised. And check the ground
wires to the coils too. No ground, no dice.  I doubt it's the coils
themselves, I've never heard of them going bad on any 3/S before from my
Jesse Rink
Eagle, WI
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:52:27 -0500
From: "Ken Stanton" <>
Subject: Re: Team3S: A challenge
Haha.. Dan I was about to write in and say the same thing!  He should hire a
controls engineer for $50 / HOUR (like myself) and have them tune it if he
can't!  And he should look up his terminology, he means to say Neural at the
end, not fuzzy.  Actually, I think PIC even has a bunch of webpages
dedicated to PID tuning with code if he's gunna go that way.  Pure amusement
for all us control engineers out there... lol.
Ken Stanton
MSEE, Virginia Tech
PhD candidate
Automotive Control Systems
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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:01:32 -0000
From: "Jim Matthews" <>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brakes
If vibration is a result of uneven pad material deposits rather than
warpage, then why do rotors have to be turned so thin?  Some suggest driving
with cold race pads (abrasive) to grind off the material...
- - --
Jim Matthews - Yorkshire, England, UK
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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:41:23 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <>
Subject: Team3S: OT: TNL Advanced Racing Techniques - Course Report - Philip saves the day!
I've been in NASA HPDE Group 4 for the past 3 years.  I've got no great yen
to race again (I ran SCCA races 20+ years ago), but I decided to take the
Advanced Racing Course at "The Next Level" Driving School.  (That's my wife
"E.T." 's driving school at Reno-Fernley Raceway in Fernley, NV).  I'm
taking their Competition Licensing course (for a NASA license, so I can be
back-up driver for ET's Enduro Team), but I'm also taking Advanced Racing
Techniques, under the tutelage of Dave Brown, a NASCAR racer.  Dave took 3rd
Place in the JellyBelly 300 last year at Sears Point (Infineon).  The only
reason he wasn't in 1st Place was that 2 entries were (different class)
Winston Cup cars, invited there to get more spectators.  Even the other
drivers congratulated Dave on his JellyBelly 'win'.  He's been NorCal NASA
Race Event Director for years, and he has a room full of trophies for every
kind of racing.  The TNL Advanced Racing course requires a competition
license, but since I've been licensed before and they know my abilities (and
the boss is my wife) they let me study with Dave Brown.
There was a glitch as we started - the Porsche they use as an instructors'
racecar had an illegal rollbar!  It's a custom body, 914 frame, and
heavily-modded 911 engine, with gobs of horsepower.  It'll be a cool racecar
when they get a proper cage.  Dave has driven my modded Base Stealth (and
other 3S's) before and he loves the GC Coilover suspension, (and of course
it's got Proxes on it), so he opted to use that as his instructor car.  When
Dave began racing, his first choice was Stealth, but he couldn't afford one,
so he bought an Eclipse.   He won 17 races in that Eclipse...  ;-)
I got a neat surprise when I began on Saturday-- one of the 3 participants
in the advanced course was Team3S member Dean Benz!  He had come for a
test'n'tune of his WRX (no, he didn't have his 3S).  It's a track
requirement that to drive test'n'tune, you need a competition license OR you
take a course with TNL to get a track permit.  Although Dean has been an
instructor for the Quattro club, he doesn't have a license. Test'n'tune
costs $175/day and the advanced course is only $195/day (for now), so he
opted to join Jim Bucha (supercharged Miata) and I (modded VR-4) in the
Level III course.
I've been an instructor for a couple of years, and Dean has been both
instructor and an avid autocrosser, so we both 'disagreed' with Dave's
initial track exercises, which are part of the "Separation of Axes" regimen.
Dean and I soon found out just how much there is for us to learn!  The
concept stresses breaking down each compound (double apex) turn into
straight-line components.  The steering wheel is considered as a "brake" -
every time you turn it, you add friction and slow down your car.  The
exercise:  Maximum throttle in a straight line.  Brake hard.  Turn sharply.
Squirt max throttle.  Brake hard.  Turn sharply.  Max throttle through the
(final) apex.  This method has the twofold benefit of maximizing speed and
of never unsettling the car, since the suspension only has to deal with one
"Axis" of motion at a time.  Hence the name, "Separation of Axes".  This is
oversimplified so I don't make this post too long, but you get the idea...
At first, my "pucker factor" kept me from going to the edge of the track at
the completion of each straight-line piece.  Dean "got it" sooner than I
did.  His WRX is stock, but at the beginning of the free-form practice runs,
he was almost catching up to me on each lap.  I'm
not used to street tires, so I had misgivings about going faster, but once I
warmed up the S-03's, I was doing just great.  By the end of the day, I was
two seconds faster per lap than I had *ever* been on race tires - 56
seconds!  But part of my faster times may have been that this was the first
time I've ever run this track with adequate brakes!  I'll be running with
the race-prepped Porsches (~53sec laps) once I get StopTechs and race
rubber.  My car is fast, and the JICs are a perfect track suspension - it's
the *driver* who needs more work.  ;-)
[This was my first experience with *either* 2nd gen brakes OR Carbotech
Panther+ Pads...  WOW, what a nice track system!  I can't tell how well
they'd fare on a longer track with more high-speed braking zones, but they
gave me the confidence to know that I could stop in any situation.  My top
speed was never over 130, and there was almost 1/3 mile between hard braking
zones, so they never got a real test...  But I was VERY impressed!  I ran
non-stop for 2 1-hour sessions on Sunday at top speed (and we had maybe 2
hours track time on Saturday) and the pads still look almost new.  I can't
say if they'd be adequate for advanced drivers on big tracks, but I'd
venture that 2nd gen brakes with Carbotechs (and Motul 600 brake fluid) are
more than enough for DE drivers right through the Intermediate levels...]
The "eye-opener" for me was driving "against" Dave Brown as he tested me in
passing & being passed.  He ran separate sessions with Jim and I - Dean
wasn't really part of the total Advanced Racing program.  It was the last
session of the day, and Dave said, "Now apply everything you've learned
today, and drive as fast as you can around the track.  If I pass you, you
have to pass me back."  I was *ready* for that.  My VR-4 is just above stock
boost (finally), it handles beautifully, and I was faster than I'd ever
been...  So I let it rip.  I left him behind on the straightaway, sailed
through the 1-4 Esses, got through the 5-6 hairpin quickly, did the
off-camber 7-8 sweepers and went past turn 10 at 125 and braked hard for the
11-12 hairpin.  That's when Dave went by me like a SHOT!  In my own Base
Stealth, he caught up to me in ONE lap!  Holy crap!  I've never even BEEN on
a track with anyone who could drive like that!  [Later, Dave reminded me
that I'd been on the track with him many times - he's one of the "mystery
racers" who joins us in HPDE Group 4 to try out their new racecars.  They
don't go to the downloads after the session, so we never know who they
are...]  Lower-horsepower cars do very well on smaller tracks, and Dave
recalled the many times that ET passed Z-06's in the Base Stealth at Sears
Point.  A great driver trumps a great car ANY day!
Well I passed Dave back, blocking him in the turns, just like he did to me.
I never really cut him off, but he jammed me quite a few times.  He
threatened once too often, running 2 abreast in the Esses and I blew by him,
dropping two wheels to make it a safe pass.  Happily, that's exactly what I
was supposed to do, and once I did it, it was a real race - a faster car
against a better driver.  It was a terrific match.  He wanted it to be a
one-on-one race, so that's what we did.  As I built up confidence, I tried
passes that I never would have tried before.  I learned that I can do things
with the car that I never thought possible, if it weren't for the right
teacher.  Yes..., there's a vested interest in ET's school succeeding, but
this is without a doubt the best training I can imagine.  And I studied with
Skip (the man, not the school) 20+ years ago...  Dave Brown, Al Butterfield,
Vicman Ng - they're incredible at sharing their racing secrets.  ET could
not have hoped for better instructors for "The Next Level".
RFR is a great learning track, since it's even wider than Thunderhill (40'
to THill's 36'), and when Dave "put me through my paces" I appreciated the
extra 4 feet.  I easily passed this training segment, and the car handled
better than I ever imagined.  It just didn't feel like a 4000 pound car out
there.  I'm pleased to say that I think that I'm becoming every bit the
driver that I've always hoped to be.  I feel an incredible sense of
accomplishment after this third phase of my TNL Advanced Racing Technique
training.  Bring on Level IV!
- --Forrest
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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:34:14 -0800
From: "Jim Berry" <>
Subject: Team3S: California Speedway [ Fontana ] --- Mar 6-7
NASA event at Fontana March 6th and 7th --- It's a little short notice but I'm
trying to generate a little interest.
Damon Rachell and I plan on signing up and Mark Thompson will go along to ride shotgun.
It's the same configuration as last year --- 2/3 of the high speed oval and the infield
road course.
Four of us drove last year and had a great time --- If Kurt Zorbel shows up he'll have
A much more interesting time on the oval with his turbo car than he did with his NA.
Generally the configuration is great fun --- the infield is pretty technical with a couple
of high speed chicanes lined with tire barriers [ the tires raise the pucker factor ]. The
Oval allows speeds up to 145+ depending on how long you can hold the throttle on the floor.
Heading towards a concrete wall at a buck fifty can really get your undivided attention. My
big dislike of the track is it is flat --- flat --- flat. I like a little elevation change
in the tracks I drive like Willow Springs, Thunderhill, Sears or Laguna --- but --- like the
old saying about sex, there ain't no such think as a bad track, some are just better than others.
Link to NASA signup ---
Link to Fontana track layout ---
  Jim Berry
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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #376