Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, February 19 2004 Volume
02 : Number 375
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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:34:20 -0600
From: "Vineet Singh [3S]" <
stealthtt@ecanfix.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S
Eclipse chassis is much weaker, quite a bit smaller, and way cheaper in
construction. You are right though, it's the same general layout and suspension
for the most part (89-94 eclipse/talon). It is (was) their flagship car, it
would have all the trimmings they could afford to do.
You guys know that we have a Twin Engine 91 Talon (eclipse), with a
mid-mounted engine, that breathes and cools off with the same naca ducts this
intrepid prototype did? If I had to do it again, it would be much easier the
next time since now we know what we are up against. I don't think it's that much
harder than turning a FWD into an AWD (just costs more).
Why would you need shorter overhangs? I think the 3/S look just fine.
Different spring rates, yes, those would definitely be needed.
If someone does do this (and a couple of my friends have been itching to
push me into that direction), a real MR Stealth would be very, very awesome.
Even more challenging would be to make a custom transfercase, and drive it
forwards to the front wheels so you could have AWD.
Benefits? Dunno, handling? probably better. Traction? maybe better,
practicality? not much different (who uses the rear seats anyway right? And
imagine the huge "bonnet" area for stuff!).
Twin Engine 3S? OMG that would sound wicked (12cyl's), but also would be a
very heavy beast. It would be fast, easily faster than mid 10's, but it would be
a handful. The v6's produce way more heat, the cooling system would occupy a lot
of the space, they also would suck lots of gas, and there is actually LESS
usable trunk space in the 3S than the DSM. They also would need more room for
exhaust piping, 3" was pushing it in the talon, with the amount of space we
had.
Nothing short of 9-9.5" wide rims and tires could be used due to the weight
and power (unless you like uncontrollable unsafe cars and smoke shows). That
would probably require some bodywork (flares, etc). You could probably get away
with single piston DSM calipers in rear, and still be able to brake. You would
want to use the FWD transmissions, but somehow use the TT knuckles/brakes/axles
up front.
One bad thing is, the front suspension of the DSM (and most likely the 3S),
doesn't work that great in rear. It's not horrible, but with that much power,
every flaw and bump is exaggerated. I would suggest some effort in doing a
custom rear suspension, one that does not retain a welded steering rack to
center the hubs/knuckles. Feels really weird around corners when there are
bumps. We studied the Boyd Codington alumacoupe suspension, and it was quite
complicated. This coupe was a midmounted eclipse motor/tranny combo. We decided
to go with the FWD suspension because it was easier, and it basically worked for
the original MR2 (complete, with vestigial tie rods and all from the
corolla!).
> It wouldn't be worth the time, money, or effort.
Yes it would, but only to certain people, provided you had a cheap donor
car or two, preferably turbo. :) I think I will just skip it for now, and build
a car from mostly scratch in the next few years... if I ever have a steady
income that is :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:57:33 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S
it would still be only two wheel drives as our FWD units are really only
one wheel drive. just spider gears, no limited slip. If anyone has run across a
limited slip conversion for an mitsu autobox I'd be real interested in it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:51:30 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S
Unfortunately the one with the least traction.
The one mod I would not pass up for my car would be limited slip. The
autobox that is used in our cars is also in several different mitsu models, the
planetary carrier should be fairly common.
Pete
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:52:27 -0500
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Team3S: NA Power Steering Fluid
My girl recently got low on power steering fluid, and ran to walmart and
got a bottle. After adding it, and having it leak out and make a mess, we
noticed on the bottle that it says 'does not work well on imports.' Now, I
know my TT takes ATF in the power steering, but what should she be using in her
NA?
Thanks!
Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT - his
92 White Stealth ES -
hers
------------------------------
I will agree to disagree with the debate on whether or not the rotors
run cooler or not. I was not trying to be cruel or derogative. My attitude you
read was simply trying to explain what I said. yes I read the cars wrong, so
what. I never said anyting cept the math was wrong. I guess my advice is to
follow your gut and take the action you find best. I have not been here
for long on this site, but that does not take away from my knowledge of cars.
also just because its in the archives does not make it fact. these are opinions
of users not engineers. So I recommend searching the archives and learning what
you can, but look elsewhere as well. I myself have never had a rotor problem
since I went to upgraded rotors.
------------------------------
If you cannot find the right fluid in the owners manual, I reccommend
going to your local parts store and asking them. they have a lubrication manual
and they should be able to look it up for you. I know this because I was the
manager of oreilly auto parts. Hope that helps
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:05:40 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject:
RE: RE: RE: Team3S: Brake Disaster
Just an FYI,
Several of the regular posters on this list ARE full time
professional engineers of various disciplines. This can be tough board to get a
concept in edgewise since there are so many engineers posting. I have run into
harsh criticism on this board for not fully documenting extremely complex
fluid/thermodynamic subjects to the satisfaction of the tightassed engineers
here, it's part of the price you pay for the excellent advice, documentation
second to none and lack of BS common on other boards.
If you Do post on this board be prepared to back up your statements with
some kind of physics based arguments or good documentation, or just take the
heat with grace.
Pete
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:14:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: OT: Laguna Seca Report. NASA 1-day HPDE - brakes
shot...
Just a note, and Bob does know this..but..dont leave race pad son for
street use.
Oddly enough street use will tend to deteriorate the pad material and it'll
weaken and possible even crumble.
Street pads tend to hate heat as it were, race pads tend to absolutely
require it.
- ---
"If it's in stock, we have it!"
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved
brake discounter.
NASA USTCC brake vendor and lead Pro-7 Sponsor.
New OEM
parts for Toyota shipped worldwide.
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:22:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: RE: RE: Team3S: Brake Disaster
As far as brake experts, I'll have to concede to the people who actually
race cars to see what works and why.
Theres darn few RACE cars that drill or slot, and the few that do..well, go
to a race and ASK them why.
No air moves sideways thru the darn rotor, it all moves from hub to the
edge of the rotor at extremely high speed and volume.
If you remove material from a heat sink on your CPU, is it as effective as
it was before?
NO
- ---
"If it's in stock, we have it!"
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved
brake discounter.
NASA USTCC brake vendor and lead Pro-7 Sponsor.
New OEM
parts for Toyota shipped worldwide.
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:43:43 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: OT: Laguna Seca Report. NASA 1-day HPDE - brakes
shot...
This is an *important* point that Geoff makes. When I last used R4-E
pads, I *did* switch them out for street pads between events, (or I didn't drive
the car on the street when they weren't switched) and they lasted forever. Maybe
8 events (10?) of hard usage. Listen to the man... I'm convinced
that the rapid deterioration of this set of race pads were because I got lazy
and didn't swap them for my street pads between events.
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:49:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: RE: RE: Team3S: Brake Disaster (fwd)
Sent to the list W/O original poster ID (unless they wanna be ID'd) I just
think this is important to the list to understand..IMHO.
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004
11:42:19 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: RE: RE: Team3S: Brake Disaster
Of course it will, but not to any real extent compared to the huge volume
created by the vanes and centrifical force IN the rotor.
The rotor is meant to be a freakin heat sink, not an air pump. (although
the vaned structure of the venting is an air pump of sorts)
Youre adding a very small percentage of airflow and surface area, but
actually causing a larger problem with reduced mass to act as the heat
sink.
You see, heat/energy is added to the rotor many hundreds of times faster
via braking, than it is removed via air cooling..the moderated control of how
the rotor absorbs that energy is greatly more important than a few percent extra
airflow.
> Come on Geoff,
> you're telling me that as air moves from the
hub to the edge of the
> rotor in the vent that it's not going to suck
air in from the surface
> of the rotor through the drilled holes?
What is Bernoulli's principle?
> Moving air has a lower pressure than
stationary air.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:37:00 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: NA Power Steering Fluid
Ken, that may apply to more recent imports. So the post about
checking at the parts dealership is a good one. I know that I can't use
run-of-the-mill, mineral-based power steering fluid in my Audi. I have to
use synthetic "hydraulic steering fluid." The normal stuff, or ATF, will
ruin the rack and cause the seals to leak.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:32:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: NA Power Steering Fluid
most people I know drop in the redline.
Solves most of their foaming, and rough steering when hot issues (which is
why most people I know even end up lookin at the PS fluid at all)
------------------------------
I agree with all that was said about drilling. However, slotting is not
in the same category of rotor molestation as rotor drilling. Slotting
does not seem to reduce the rotor strength either because slots are not
cut much deeper than the rotor discard depth. Also, even though slots
are stress concentrators just as the drilled holes, they are just
surface stress concentrators. Cast iron by its nature is not as
sensitive to stress concentrators as other metals because it has a lot
or irregularities in its microstructure already, and a slot on the
surface does not make much of a difference. The stress concentrator
effect of the slots decreases as the rotor wears down. That cannot be
said of the through-holes in the rotors.
Many racing brake companies experiment with and market a variety of
slotting patterns to achieve various objectives, such as removing glaze
from the pads, evacuating brake dust, helping the rotors shed water,
modifying pad wear pattern, gas venting (to a lesser extend), etc.
"D = Cross drilled, drilled holes chamfered). Still preferred with some
pad materials but can compromise disc life."
But it seems like there is still a strong demand for drilled rotors,
mostly for street cars, and mostly for aesthetic reasons. Perhaps it
reminds people the old days of racing when rotors did not run as hot
because the pad materials could would start to melt and gas out like
crazy. At that time drilling was a good idea, but not anymore. Modern
pads do not gas out, so drilling has no additional benefit over slots.
Why a brake company would offer rotors with holes? Because if they
don't
they can lose customers to other brake companies that do.
Would I sell rotors with holes in them? I sure will. I may even have a
drop-down menu on my ordering page to let shopper specify how many
holes
they want me to drill. :-) That would require folks to think how
many holes
they really want in their brakes, if any at all.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:01:50 -0000
From: "Jim Matthews" <
jim@the-matthews.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: brakes shot... (was OT: Laguna Seca Report. NASA 1-day HPDE - brakes
shot...)
Sounds similar to my experience at Donington Park in November.
The in-car video linked off of my report speaks for itself, and I had to use the
parking brake to stop the car in the pits! Scary stuff. I also
suffered from stubborn piston and fitting syndrome; I managed to shear off a
stainless steel line in my left-rear caliper while removing it to tackle a stuck
piston. Argh!
On a more positive note, my Supercar Engineering custom four-corner
StopTech kit arrived today. It looks absolutely FANTASTIC. I took
some photos comparing the rotors and pads to my spare 2nd gen parts and look
forward to tackling installation this weekend. I'll document everything I
can and provide links off of my Modifications page at
http://www.team3s.com/~matthews/modifications.html
(the comparison photos are already out there).
- - --
Jim Matthews - Yorkshire, England, UK
------------------------------
I think that every1 agress that a MR engine layout in a 3/S would be very
cool.
But would it be cost effective. A turbo with mods would be just as fast
through the 1/4, and although MR cars generally have better balance and
weight
distribution then a FR car would, would a 3/S have an ideal setup?
How would
someone achieve this?
Mike
97 SL
------------------------------
A couple things to consider.....
If you only have duplicate keys and not an original, a dealer can cut a
new key from code rather than just copying the old key on the grinder.
They can look up your vin and get your key code. Keys will wear and
copies don't always work right.
Also If you go to the dealer, they could cut you a valet key. Our
cars
(or at least my 91 VR4) is set up for a valet key system. The
separate
key will only work the door lock and ignition. It will not
unlock the
glove box (and I think the rear hatch). I found this out by
chance
while at a dealer for repairs and I asked about new keys.....they
then
asked which key I wanted, the standard or valet. Not sure if all
dealers have the punch to make keys from code, but my local dealer
did.
But if your keys work just fine, go to your local hardware store.
- -Bill
91VR4
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:6:11 -1000
From: "James Wilk" <
branjw@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Fuel Problem With 94 VR4
Hi,
I have been on the list for a while, but this is my first time
posting. I have been busy rebuilding my 1994 3000GT vr4, it is stock
currently, but not for long. And being on this list has helped me alot in
my endeavors.
BTW, I have searched the old digests and visited the FAQ pages, to no luck
on anyone with my similar problem(perhaps I am bad at searching?) Anyway
heres my story, I got the body work done on my car, I then drove it to the
place where I was getting my paintjob. After the paint job, I drove it
home about 15 miles (quite funny seeing a lightless, bumperless 3000GT going
down the road, lol, anyway) It ran perfectly fine, I even took it for a
few spins before putting her into my garage. I come back the next day, She
won't start. Check the fuel rail, no fuel. Start doing the
diagnostics listed in the shop manual. Check the relays, wire harness'
everything appears to check out. Jump the fuel pump via the test terminal,
I hear the pump fire up, attempt to start the engine it starts right up.
Pulls right up to redline, sounds great, remove power to the terminal it
slowly runs out of gas and dies. Now I am not sure, but I am leaning
towards the ECU being no good. I have already taken the ECU apart, and
checked to see if any of the capcitors leaked, no smell or residue from what I
can tell. Is it possible that it still the ECU? Also is there some
way that I could retrieve any codes from it that could point me int he right
direction, I do not remember comeing across any in the manual. And if so,
do you guys reccomend any good rebuilders for our ECUs that is relatively
cheap. One thing to note is that this car has been a work in progress, and
has had alot of down time. In fact almost a year, it has not been run for
more then 5 minutes, and at max 30 minutes. I am in the process of
rebuilding and modifying this car, and its been a while since i got to drive her
:(, so any and help would be appreciated so I can get to driveing her again, and
begin on engine mods, I would prefer to have everything in working order before
I attempt engine modifications. Also one little tid bit that makes working
on this car all the more harder, I live in Hawaii :), on the "Big Island".
I would love to have her up and running again, considering there are at max 3
other vr4s on this island, even though there are many SL's. Its nice to
see people's faces as they read "Twin Turbo" on the side glass.
Thank you all for your time,
Brandon
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:06:24 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Fuel Problem With 94 VR4
Well, Brandon, I live in Pittsburgh, and the weather has been terrible this
winter. I'd be happy to fly to Hawaii to help you diagnose your
problem. ;-)
Wishful thinking, I know. Anyway, are you sure you checked the fuel
pump relay in the engine bay that is around the area of the airbox? You
might want to replace it just in case. It's not a very expensive part
(about $30). Despite its location, its terminals have the propensity to
rust and corrode. At least mine did. PM me your VIN and I can get
the part number for you. It's probably MB957905, but your VIN will confirm
for sure.
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#375
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