Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, February 18 2004 Volume 02 : Number 374


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:57:32 -0800
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: GTO-MR

OOPS! Have to correct myself to stop spreading more rumors. I was
supposed to say "Highland Park (not Hyland)".

The Viper was Bob Litz's brain child, so the Stealth perhaps was his
bastard son then. Although he did get arrested for speeing in one of
them going 100+ on a 50-mph street (Telegraph road) and spent a few
hours at a police station. Now he is one of GM's big cheeses and tells
which cars GM should make. When he went to GM, one of his first
comments, to everyone's dismay, was that the Corvette was too big, LOL.

Philip
http://supercar-engineering.com


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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:29:13 -0700
From: "Donald Ashby" <dashbyiii@mho.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: GTO-MR (stealth show car)

http://www.geocities.com/conceptcarcentralusa/intrepid.html
That's the only other info I could find on it :)
I think this dodge concept car with the HSX rear end would look awesome :-D
Donald Ashby
'93 3000GT VR-4 (RIP)
'92 3000GT VR-4 (Vroom!)
Live as you are meant to, yielding at every moment to the perfect freedom of a single necessity.

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:28:49 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: GTO-MR

From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <philip@supercar-engineering.com>
- ---------snip--------->
A funny part is that Highland Park (not Hyland) is not a "think tank" in
California (like some want to believe, hehehe) but a downtrodden Detroit
suburb, which in the 80's was a home to Chrysler Tech Center.  ---snip---
Also I will never believe that Porsche would work with Ferrari and with
Chrysler designing a sports car. Although, Chrysler did own Lamborghini
 in the 70's for several months, just like several other car companies did,
before they had to sell it to stop losing money.
- ------------------------>
Thanks for the correction.  But...  We researched this in the mid-90's after
a massive flamewar on the Starnet list.  The HP misspelling was mine, but
the original phrase got glitched somehow from the original quote - from a
former Chrysler Exec VP who worked on the project, who was Pres of a non-US
Chrysler operation when we contacted him... (name withheld by request).  His
words, "We roughed the original drawings in Highland park, then CA, the
Stockton facility, (for secrecy - there was fear of espionage) when Ferrari
came in to consult the body."  It was widely reported in the American car
mags that Porsche was involved, as well.  Iacocca had relationships with
many Italian car companies, like DeTomaso, Ghia, Lambo, and Ferrari..., and
Chrysler owned 5% of Maserati in the early 80's.  Iacocca was enamored with
Italian car style and everyone knew it - the industry joke in 1982 was to
call the "Chrysler TC by Maserati" the "Lido" (Iacocca's real first name).
In the mid-80's, Highland Park was not a 'downtrodden suburb', but a
thriving town, until they began to dismantle it in 1995, and move to Auburn
Hills.  And the design 'studio' was called a 'think tank'.  You only saw it
after the town died.  When I was there in the mid-80's photographing their
minivans, it looked like a scene from a world's fair.
http://www.plymouthcars.org/chryshp.htm


A Hemi has never been and will never become a 4-banger. And the cab-forward
design  started with the 1993 Dodge Intrepid. Iacocca was almost out of his
mind by then. He kept insisting on having wood laminated sides on minivans.
:-)  So the new Chrysler ME 4-12 is nothing else than the Post-Stealth MR!
Amazing how old things can raise from the grave around here. :-)
> Philip
> http://supercar-engineering.com
- ------------------------>
The term "cab forward" may have been *used* first in 1993, but look at all
the Chrysler concept cars from the 80's - are they raked forward, or not?
;-)  They've been talking about this mystery 4-banger hemi variant for over
25 years.  I never saw one, but I believe it will happen (just like I did in
1980).  It's a new rumor for this year too - for '05...  In March at the
show, truck freaks are expecting the rumored 6+-liter, an 8+-liter or the
small platform 4-banger hemi 'thing' to materialize in one '05 Dodge product
or another...  Maybe Dakota?  Please give us your report after the show.

And what's wrong with wood sides on minivans?  LOL!

- --Forrest  (...still an Iacocca fan...)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 04:05:37 -0700
From: "Paul Rupp" <3000GT-VR4@acorp.net>
Subject: Team3S: Advice on selling 3000GT VR/4

Hi All,

I'm thinking about getting rid of my 1994 VR/4, but want some advice on what
would be a fair price.  Totally stock, leather, moonroof, six-CD changer in
rear, premium sound (amp under passenger seat, etc.)  It runs, and actually
pretty well, but it goes downhill from there.  It has 150K miles, needs the
120K done, has compression ranging from upper 90's to 120's, burns oil
(valve job needed), has a leaking clutch master cylinder, needs new front
and read brake pads (which I have, and was going to install the very day I
got hit), SRS light is on (though airbag hasn't been deployed), active aero
light is on (probably because of front air dam), and, to top everything off,
I just got hit on the passenger side door.  Pretty significant damage,
passenger door will need to be replaced (it opens, but is crunched pretty
bad- haven't tried putting the window down, but assume it wouldn't go down),
rear quarter panel has a small scratch on it from the accident (and a larger
key scratch from someone with p---s envy), front quarter panel may have been
moved on impact; doesn't show any exterior damage, but seems to ride about
1/8 to 1/4" higher than the hood.  Various and sundry other dings and paint
chipping elsewhere.  Interior, I don't have much to compare it to.  Requisit
split in the driver side leather seat, all others seem to be OK.  Replaced
the stock shifter with a Momo about 2 years ago.  Some damage to passenger
side front "foot" carpet, and rear passenger seat belt doesn't retract.
Electrically everything seems to be fine, all lights seem to come on and
work, etc.  Please understand that most of these observations are my
unlearned opinion.  I am not by any stretch of the imagination a mechanic,
body shop expert, etc.

What I'd like, if someone would venture, is an idea of what would be "more
than fair" or at least fair, to expect to get from a VR/4 in this shape.
Also, suggestions- eBay, 3SI, both?  Should I sell it locally and avoid the
hassels of shipping, remote selling, trusting a buyer I've never met, etc.
Or, should I just take the insurance money (the other guy's fault) and drive
the car until it dies?  Or sell it to some body shop guy who can fix it up
in his spare time?  Or take the money, pick up a door on 3SI or at a
junkyard and use the money to fix the mechanical issues?  Other ideas?

Thanks!

- - Paul
Albuquerque, New Mexico

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:31:34 +1300
From: doug <doug@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Team3S: Active Aero

Hello people

Need some information about my active aero please ... When I get to
80kph the tail goes which is all good and returns when reducing down to
50kph then the aero light shows up on the dash and the tail will not go
up again when reaching 80kph.  The front air dam still has the motor and
brackets but the wing unit has been removed, probably been damaged.

Anyone know why my rear wing unit will only work once then won't work
again until I turn the car off and restart.

Thanks for your help.

Doug


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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:36:42 -0800
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: Team3S: OT: Wood Sides on Mini-Vans (WAS: GTO-MR)

I immigrated to The States in the early 90's at the age of 12. I remember
one day about 3 weeks after I first arrived, walking to school and in front
of one house I saw this hideous car parked in the driveway. It was some
ugly, huge gas guzzler with wood sides. At first I thought that the car had
been in an accident and the owners were too poor to do proper repairs, so
they used plywood. I continued to walk past the car and noted the same
panels on the other side. I then came to the realization that at one time,
perhaps 10 years earlier, some stoned shmuck walked on to a dealer lot and
ASKED for a car with "plywood" on the door panels. Almost 13 years later, I
still have no idea what would posses a person to buy one of the new PT
Cruisers with the now-available wood panels on the sides....

Maybe I'm just weird.

Tyson Varosyan
Technical Manager, Uptime Technical Solutions LLC.
tyson@up-times.com
www.up-times.com
206-715-TECH (8324)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:52:15 -0800
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Active Aero

The rear and the front Active motors are both controlled by the same
computer located in the trunk. Both front and rear motors have sensors that
monitor the system in order to ensure that it is working properly. If the
front wing is removed, the system knows that something in the front is
messed up and stops working. This is a very common issue with the VR4. On my
car, I disconnected the computer and wired up a manual over-ride switch to
control the wing.

Tyson Varosyan
Technical Manager, Uptime Technical Solutions LLC.
tyson@up-times.com
www.up-times.com
206-715-TECH (8324)

UpTime/OnTime/AnyTime

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:32:08 -0500
From: "Bob G" <Rguirlinger@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S

All this discussion about a mid-engine 3S has gotten me thinking about the
possibilities.  Wouldn't it be interesting to try a conversion?  How about a
Northstar engine/transaxle/subframe bolted into the rear of one of our cars?
Downside would be the automatic tranny. Wouldn't use a TT as the donor, but
a FWD car.  Any thoughts?

Bob Guirlinger
92 VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:32:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Baldwin <mbaldwin@alumni.tufts.edu>
Subject: Team3S: Optima red top

The reason I originally went with the red top is because of the
testimonials where people have said their batteries have lasted for 6-7
years.

Anyways, the battery has a 2 year warranty which I'm out of, but its
prorated 50% after that, so I'm picking up a new one Wednesday.

Mike

Quote>>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:05:08 -0500
From: "Dan Labonte" <danlabonte@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Optima Red top

If it will not hold a charge and especially if the plastic on top of the
battery is bubbling, then it is time for a new one.  Regular battery is
fine
if you are all stock.

Dan Labonte

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:22:14 -0800
From: Gizmo <kdmorg@comcast.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Stealth keys

Ted,

I have all 4 of my spares made from off the shelf blanks. They are
nothing special. I have a '93 NA R/T.

Regards,

Keith/Gizmo


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:38:08 -0800 (PST)
From: vr4glenn@newsguy.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Stealth keys

My keys are from Wal-Mart.  $1.79/ea, work great.

IIRC, it's key #51 on the rack. 

Glenn

At Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:22:14 -0800, you wrote
>Ted,
>
>I have all 4 of my spares made from off the shelf blanks. They are
>nothing special. I have a '93 NA R/T.
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:53:36 -0300
From: Cesar Diniz Maciel <cmaciel_3000gt@terra.com.br>
Subject: Team3S: Active aero  - how to disassemble wing

I have seen a web page some time ago showing how to disassemble the rear
wing, with pictures of each step. I need to perform this on my car,
because the wing is cracked. DOes anyone have seend this web page, and
have the URL?
    Thanks
    CEsar

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:59:57 -0500
From: "Bedrock" <rbedrock@rcn.com>
Subject: Team3S: 60K Tune-up

I am going to have a 60K performed on my car and the place recomended on our
forum is http://www.enhancedstreetperformance.com/ in MA. I have no doubt of
there experience
with our cars.  This is a quote from Dave at the shop "A typical 60K would
include the timing belt, timing belt tensioner, waterpump (recommended),
accessory belts, plugs, wires, fuel
filter, air filter, PCV, replacing the fluid in the tranny, transfer case,
and rear differential, and top off of all fluids.  We also do a full safety
inspection and tire rotation.  We use 100% factory Mitsubishi parts.

     We are running a "Spring Tune-Up Special" where the 60K would cost $495
labor for the 3000GT/Stealth Turbo cars (plus cost of parts) .  The oil pump
is replaced as an assembly and this usually adds another $150 in labor.  We
have also replaced the rod bearings for some customers with low oil pressure
problems, which is only an additional $150 in labor since the pan is already
off for the oil pump replacement." Parts will cost $774.50.  The fluids and
oil filter are the only things not
included in the quote.  The rod bearing set would be an additional $76.17 if
you decided to go that route.
     I know I should do it myself but making the time and a warm spot is a
big problem in my life right now and I want to drive it to FL around July or
August without any  problems. Any input is appreciated. I also found the
Hankook Ventus Sport K104 245/45/17 @ $395.25 delivered 4 to my door.
http://www.onlinetires.com/main.html

Bob-Team3S
White/Red 91 RT/TT, Original at 141,000+

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:08:02 -0500
From: Mark Frouhar <mfrouhar@bear.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Active aero  - how to disassemble wing

This is the link I used but it's coming up with a DNS error
right now <shrug>:

http://www.vr4stealth.com/spoiler.htm

    -Mark Frouhar
     85 TA 434 DFI7 T56
     95 3000GT VR4
     http://legoland.fbody.com

Cesar Diniz Maciel wrote:
> I have seen a web page some time ago showing how to disassemble the rear
> wing, with pictures of each step. I need to perform this on my car,
> because the wing is cracked. DOes anyone have seend this web page, and
> have the URL?

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:03:58 EST
From: M3000GTSL84@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S

That "intrepid" show car was built on an old dodge daytona chassis. That car
is as closly related to the 3/S as a Civic would be. Only some styling cues
were taken, and even those were changed by Mitsu for the 2nd Gen.  2nd Gen
stlying Mods were all done by Mistu, and the 99 3rd Gen was designed by Mitsu's
Cali studios.

Our cars are built on a streched Eclipse chassis, which in turn is from the
Galant, which only makes sense because the cars are built in Japan, and are FWD
derivitives. The space for the AWD half shafts was already there because of
cars like the the Galant VR-4 and Eclipse turbo.

Could you make a 3/S a mid engine car. . .sure, but a bunch of mods would be
needed just to make sure everything fit in properly. How would the engine
breath? The fake NACA ducts on our cars wouldnt be big enough to let air in, so
you would have to modify that. Spring rates would change, and what about under
the the hood?  Mid engine cars have much shorter front overhangs. Think of an
NSX or Ferrari. The proportions are totally different.

It woldnt be worth the time, money, or effort.

Mike
97 SL

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:21:29 -0500
From: "Bob G" <Rguirlinger@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S

>
> It woldnt be worth the time, money, or effort.
>
> Mike
> 97 SL
>

All valid points, Mike.

I know there would be major structural modifications, suspension, electrical
as well as may others.  I just think it would be cool smokin' the rear tires
and having a V8 in the back seat!

Should be easy/cheap to find a non-turbo 3S.  The hard/expensive part will
be finding the Northstar engine/tranny.

Bob G
92 VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:01:35 -0700
From: "Steve Mitchell" <stevem@ibew68.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S

How about the drivetrain from an old Olds Toronado.
I remember back when people used to put those in
the back of a Station Wagon. You'd look through the
side windows and be able to see the engine. The W34
package 455 would be a ticket to fly !

Steve M
'91 Dodge Stealth R/T TT AWD


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:07:52 +0000
From: mjannusch@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S

> Should be easy/cheap to find a non-turbo 3S.  The
> hard/expensive part will be finding the Northstar
> engine/tranny.

Why would you want to use a Northstar engine?  If you are going to do this and don't want to completely ruin the car, at least use a 6G72 and a FWD tranny.  At least then when you are done you still have a "3S" car.

Northstar.  Bah.  Where the heck did that idea come from?

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:23:22 -0600
From: "Julie Chapman" <juliec@menterandassociates.com>
Subject: Team3S: Noise Under The Hood

  I hear a very loud noise, not ticking more like rattling, coming from
under
  the hood. Sounds like it could be coming from the power steering pump or
the
  area around the pump.
  I am a newbie. Bought a used 1994 Stealth 102k SOHC. The timing belt was
  just done before I bought it.
  Can any of you veterans give me some suggestions of what it could be?
And/or
  how to fix?
  Thanks,
  Julie C.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:33:41 -0500
From: "Bob G" <Rguirlinger@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S

> Northstar.  Bah.  Where the heck did that idea come from?
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4

Northstar is a pretty high-tech motor (for a US company), and the
combination motor/tranny are pretty compact.  Not a lot of room behind the
seats.

Or, how about this:

Keep the standard  3S FWD DOHC in the front and put another one in the back!
That would be prety wild too!  Talk about all-wheel-drive...

Bob Guirlinger
92 VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:55:01 -0800
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S

I remember seeing some black old American that someone used 2 Northstar
systems to do that with. There is also a Hyundai Tiburon that someone did
that with. I don't know what they used for powerplants but they were saying
that balancing the 2 throttles was just a total PITA. I don't know how to
shift the thing too.  You would have to use Automatic Trannys. The cool
thing though is that they could do wicked burnouts. Sticking one tranny in D
and the other in R and flooring the car caused an opposite way burnout that
would be sure to surprise the hell out of anyone that would be getting lined
up to race with you.

Tyson Varosyan
Technical Manager, Uptime Technical Solutions LLC.
tyson@up-times.com
www.up-times.com
206-715-TECH (8324)

UpTime/OnTime/AnyTime

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:23:25 -0500
From: "Bob G" <Rguirlinger@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Mid-engine 3S

The cool
> thing though is that they could do wicked burnouts. Sticking one tranny in
D
> and the other in R and flooring the car caused an opposite way burnout
that
> would be sure to surprise the hell out of anyone that would be getting
lined
> up to race with you.
>
> Tyson Varosyan

Now you're talkin'!  Anti-Traction action.  Got to use our imaginations with
this thing.

Bob Guirlinger
92 VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:37:28 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S: OT: Laguna Seca Report. NASA 1-day HPDE - brakes shot...

NASA held an unique one-day event at Laguna Seca on February 10th.  Five
30-minute HPDE sessions PLUS an open track session.  AWEsome!

After a great weekend at Sears Point a couple of days before, I drove down
to Monterey (Pacific Grove, actually) on Monday night.  Geoff and Nissa, and
their friend Jacob came down.  On Tuesday morning, I left for the track
after they did, since they were going early - working registration for NASA.
I managed to get lost and stuck in morning drive traffic on the way to the
track, so I missed the first session.  At Sears Point, I had been coaching
Bill Ashurst a bit, and I talked him into coming down to Laguna to learn the
track; I offered to be his instructor.  As soon as I (finally) arrived at
the track, I rode along with Bill in Group 3, and taught him the line and
the intricacies of the track.  Bill has really progressed as a driver since
the last time I rode with him, showing some impressive skills.  Even though
he's still driving his '93TT on street tires, he was driving at the limit of
their grip..., and beyond.  He was drifting through parts of various tight
turns, in full control of the car.  After two sessions of instruction, he
was adept enough to go out on his own, to work out a couple of issues when
being passed, and when passing.  Nice job, Bill!

I was running in Group 4, practicing some new techniques which I've been
learning at "The Next Level" (E.T.'s driving school at Reno-Fernley
Raceway).  Even though I'm taking the Competition Licensing course (for a
NASA license), I've also been taking the Advanced Racing Techniques course,
under the tutelage of Dave Brown, a NASCAR racer, and Race Event Director
for NASA NorCal.  The Advanced Racing course usually requires a license, but
since I've been licensed before and they know my abilities (and the boss is
my wife!) they let me study with Dave.  (I'll do a separate list post about
the course.)

One of the exercises is pretty stressful on brakes, because you convert
every tight double-apex turn into a series of 3 or 4 straight-line
segments--  Top speed into a late braking zone, downshift-turn-squirt the
throttle and brake hard for the second segment, downshift (if
necessary)-turn and trail brake through the third straight segment, then be
at full throttle before the apex.  It's a real stretch for me to go to the
edge of the track at the completion of each straight-line piece (pucker
factor), but that's what the exercise calls for.  And it just ate up my
first gen brakes.

As I mentioned in my Track Report last week, I had felt a lot of vibration
under hard braking at Sears Point (Infineon) a couple of days before that,
but I've got a rim that was repaired recently, and I just figured that they
didn't fix it right.  It couldn't *possibly* be brakes or rotors, since I've
got fairly new cryoed Porterfield solid rotors and R4-E endurance pads.  So,
like a moron, and in my (typical) rush mode, I didn't even check the brakes,
since I had plenty of pad 3 days earlier when I had last checked them at
Infineon.  Wrong assumption about the bent rim...  By the end of my second
run, I had an empty pedal - no brakes at all.  When I got back in, we took a
look at it, and the pads were gone.  Metal to metal.  Only 4,000 highway
miles, three weekend HPDE events and three test'n'tune days, and I had
ground the brakes into dust.  (I should have expected it, though, since I
get free track time at Reno-Fernley Raceway, and I run until someone else
needs the track.  I probably do the equivalent of a 2-day HPDE in half a day
of test'n'tune at RFR.)

Luckily, Bill had some tools, and he took the time between his runs to put
on some used R4-S spare pads for me.  Thank you, Bill!!!  We couldn't bleed
the brakes much, since we couldn't even turn the fittings.  Some
greasemonkey moron had used vise grips on them, and it was like they were
welded in.  The pistons were just as stubborn.  It was pretty obvious that
this was the last event for the entire front brake system.  I had to limp
home 150 miles with "3-pump brakes" (I had to hit them 3 times to get any
stopping power at ALL).  ;-)  When I was a kid, I drove with no brakes for
months on end (when I had no money) in my 4400-lb, 'Vette-engined '57 Olds
98, so it wasn't a problem in my VR-4 'battleship'.  Been there..., done
that...  ;-)  It felt like "old times"...

It was a shortened day for me, but I still had a great time.  Looks like
there are StopTechs in my (near) future...

Best,

Forrest

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #374
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