Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 15:45:28 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blow thru Maf-t

Blow through is not what I want to do unless everything else is under
control. Especially because nobody knows how the sensor acts to the
pressure differences as well as to the discharge temperatures after the
intercoolers. If the temps are too high, the IC tubes are contaminated by
oil, the sensor may act different or may go south very soon. I don't see
any other gain than space from this setup. So what's the need for this ? Is
it a weakness of the MAF-T that it must run in blow trough to work properly
? Why woudl one do this ?

Therefore, it's good to have people that are lovely guinea pigs that try
such things out. Good luck, for sure you have made sure that everything
else is perfect.

The MAFT work awesome in the stock location. It is still too early to see any bad reprucusions from placing it in blow through setup. We'll have to wait and see.

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 17:05:35 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blow thru Maf-t

At 15:44 02.02.2004 +0000, gabe92rttt@comcast.net wrote:
> From what I understand, there are many benefits to the MAFT in blow
> through setup.
>
>First, it enables one to run an open loop BOV without hesitation or
>stalling.

Ok, nn open BOV (without any loop) is what you mean. A little benfit as if
tuned correctly the car doesn't die with an open one.

As yo usay, the filter(s) are a restriction. If the MAF is one then you add
it before the throttle body. No gain !

If you are blowing IC pipes then you did something wrong. If the pipe
before the TB falls off then you're in the same boat.

Sorry, nothing of these explanations will convince me. I still don't know
why one should do it. Can someone describe me the the real gains and pros
that fight against the possible negs of such a setup ??

>The MAFT work awesome in the stock location. It is still too early to
>see
>any bad reprucusions from placing it in blow through setup. We'll have to
>wait and see.

The MAF-T is a signal conversion electronic device that lets you run a MAF
instead the MAS. One may better check out with the manufacturer of the used
MAF if it works for the desired setup and temperature range. It can become
a nightmare to tune the MAF-T in when having a huge temp range as the MAF
may send different signal under boost und temperature. Get the specs of the
MAF to find out before try and error !!

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 16:09:51 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blow thru Maf-t

This is perhaps the best reason to go to a VPC or "blow-though" setup. Pressure drop increases with the square of the flow rate increase (in smooth pipes, and by inference in air filters). So if the flow is doubled, the pressure drop quadruples. Likewise, if the flow is cut in half the pressure drop decreases to 1/4th.

MAF-T GM 3.5" or ARC2 Ford 87-mm MAF has ~1 psi loss at 860 cfm. K&N advertises about 1.5 psi drop at ~850 cfm flow.

Typical setup with single K&N and MAS before turbos and 860 cfm flow: 1.5 (filter) + 1.0 (MAF) = 2.5 psi drop before turbo

Blow through setup with 2 filters before turbos and MAF near TB: 0.4 (filters) = 0.4 psi drop before turbos (each filter need draw only half the air that a single filter would)

Turbos are pressure (density) multipliers and it is much easier and faster to reach the target density (boost) levels when the pressure into the turbo starts out higher. Also, potentially higher peak pressure ratios (and boost) can be achieved. Granted the MAF near the TB will create a temporary pressure drop. But I imagine this is compensated somewhat by the (relatively) large plenum. And in any case, it would be preferrable to have a 1 psi loss after the turbo rather than before.

Assuming a turbo is capable of a max 3.0 PR, and there is 2 psi drop in the IC+pipes and 1 psi drop in the MAF.

> The MAFT work awesome in the stock location. It is
> still too early to see any bad reprucusions from
> placing it in blow through setup. We'll have to
> wait and see.

If the MAFT doesn't mimic the high-voltage wire cleaning cycle that GM uses, then you'll likely have to remove the MAF once in a while to clean the wire with solvent to remove oil residue. I had a Ford MAF set up the same way on my Eclipse GSX for a little while way back when and I had to clean it about once a month. Our motors seem to blow even more oil into the intake, so that might be a concern with running it as a blow-through MAF.

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:13:57 -0500
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blow thru Maf-t

At 10:44 AM 2/2/2004, gabe92rttt@comcast.net wrote:
>Fourth, your car won't die and lose power brakes if you blow of an IC
>hose.

If the engine dies unexpectedly the vacuum booster is designed to maintain
enough vacuum for one or two complete stops. So, those of us who do not run
MAFTs are still safe, which is good news. Other than that, I have no
opinion about the MAFT.

Well by blowing off IC hoses I may have been refering to my own personal expereinces. As I still have stock IC piping (except Y pipe) and am pushing high boost 18 psi+, it would be nice to know that my car will be able to stop in good order if one happened to blow off at over 100mph.

Concerning the life expectancy and heat issues in a blow through setup, I don't see any downside. If you have decent intercoolers, then the intake charge shouldn't be much higher than ambient temperatures.

There was a thread on 3si discussing a different PVC valve system or using a breather filter on the hose comes from the rear valve cover to the rear intake hose and then capping the nipple on the hose. Supposedly this would decrease oil contamination and be necessary for the MAFT to work the best. Even if there wasn't a way to keep oil out, it would be worth cleaning the MAF every month.

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 08:39:02 -0800
From: Gizmo <kdmorg@comcast.net>
Subject: Team3S: Info for Cam Lockers

Cam Locks (called a DOHC Cam locking tool) at a place called Tool Town.
You can also get one through MATCO Tools and of course Snap-On. You can
order them through MATCO and Snap-On on the 'net. MATCO part number is
CLT36880. The Snap-On part number is ML5000.

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 17:48:34 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blow thru Maf-t

Jeff, you should use the same filter for the correct comparison. The only
restriction that is removed then is the MAF from the intake part as he
wants to safe space. So lets stay with the same filter for the moment.

So, it makes sense that the compressor wheel doesn't have to do much work
to achieve the desired outlet pressure at the same flow due to the more
free path it can breath through.

>Assuming a turbo is capable of a max 3.0 PR, and there is 2 psi drop in
>the IC+pipes and 1 psi drop in the MAF.
>
>14 psi (filters) -> turbo -> max 28 psi (boost) - 3 (IC+MAF) = 25 psi max
>
>12 psi (filter+maf) -> turbo -> max 24 psi (boost) - 2 (IC) = 22 psi max

14 psi (filter) -> turbo - 28 psi (boost) - 2 (IC) - 1 (MAF) = 25 psi
14 psi (filter) -1 (MAF) -> turbo - 26 psi (boost) - 2 (IC) = 24 psi

Yes, the compressor wheel must work 1 psi less hard with the less
restriction before the wheel.
Using the HKS foams is also a dual filter so whatever it is the same filter
should be taken into account.

In the end, this is the only thing of a blow through setup that makes sense
and may result in better performance.

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:12:56 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Info for Cam Lockers

I had some cam locks here that looked the same but did not fit due to the
width of the cam sprocket. The pins did not went into sprokets to hold
them...in fact they jumped off ... argh. Is there any way to increase the
lenght of the pins are another design of such cam locks ?

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 17:59:20 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blow thru Maf-t

>> Jeff, you should use the same filter for the correct comparison. The
>> only restriction that is removed then is the MAF from the intake part
>> as he wants to safe space. So lets stay with the same filter for the
>> moment.

My comparison *is* using the same filter. When half as much air is drawn through the same filter (actually two of the same filter), 430 cfm instead of 860 cfm, then the pressure drop is 1/4 what it is at 860 cfm. So 1.5 psi drop (860 cfm) goes to ~0.4 psi drop (430 cfm). Same filter, except there are two of them, each drawing/flowing 430 cfm (into each turbo). Two filters & two paths means 1/4 the pressure drop of one filter and one "path" (that is split into two after the MAS, one for each turbo).

No, there are two "restrictions" removed with a "blow-thru" setup: the MAF and the larger pressure drop from all the air flow going through one filter.

In practice, a person is likely to go with two medium size filters compared to one large filter. And so the psi "savings" may be a little less. Perhaps the medium filter may loose 0.5 or 0.6 psi at 430 cfm instead of my example 0.4 psi for two larger filters. Still, a substantial "savings" over the 1.5 psi drop of a single large filter.

I ignore the intake pipes because the pipes for a dual intake setup (no MAF) likely will not be that much shorter than what we have stock. But in fact, there will likely be somewhat less pressure drop in the dual intake setup (potentially straighter paths, larger pipes, shorter length, etc.).

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:09:14 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blow thru Maf-t

>No, there are two "restrictions" removed with a "blow-thru" setup: the MAF
>and the larger pressure drop from all the air flow going through one filter.
>
>In practice, a person is likely to go with two medium size filters
>compared to one large filter. And so the psi "savings" may be a little
>less. Perhaps the medium filter may loose 0.5 or 0.6 psi at 430 cfm
>instead of my example 0.4 psi for two larger filters. Still, a substantial
>"savings" over the 1.5 psi drop of a single large filter.

I know what you are saying, but I'd use the same dual filter setup for the
MAF before turbo setup like for the blow through setup. Like one has the
HKS mushrooms and then just installs one onto each turbo.

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:50:18 -0500
From: "Bob G" <Rguirlinger@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Anti-Lock Brake System

My ABS light came on today. When I shut the car off and got out, I could
hear a noise like an electric motor running coming from under the hood.
Turned out to be what I am assuming is the ABS unit, near the front on the
passenger's side. The only way I could get it to shut off was to disconnect
the battery.

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:02:00 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anti-Lock Brake System

As you stand on the passenger side, remove the circuit breaker in the lower
left hand corner. Two bolts hold it in, so you need a small socket or
wrench (10 mm?) to get them loose. Loosen the bolts, pull the circuit
breaker out, and re-connect the battery. The pump will not run.

Solution: Put the CB back in, and see what happens. If that doesn't fix it,
leave the circuit breaker out for several hours, and put it back in. With
luck, everything will work again. If that doesn't work, leave it out for
several days.

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:27:14 -0000
From: "Alex Judd" <ajudd@enpocket.com>
Subject: Team3S: Introduction and GTO Kangarooing

Firstly a brief introduction as I'm new here. I have a 91 3000 GTO Twin
Turbo which was first registered in December 1990 and which I imported from
Japan to England earlier this year.

It's blue - which I'm not sure is a stock colour or not and has had a few
modifications made to by previous owner(s) to make it faster and look a
little bit different (and picture is here
http://ajudd.kgbinternet.com/gto/AlexGTO2.jpg ). Currently it has an after
market nose cone on it (by whom I can't quite work out) and I have a
replacement Bozz Speed one to put on at some point. Phew.

When I got my GTO I noticed that under heavy acceleration the car starts
fine - then a loud whooshing noise kicks in (guessing this to be the blow
off valve?) and then the car goes much faster. However just at this point it
starts to kangaroo and I basically let of the gas to make it happier again.

Originally chatting with a fellow GTO owner in the UK he thought it would be
the boost valve being blocked (with oil I think?) or the ECU kicking in to
limit the boost speed, however I had a look under the bonnet today and it
looks like there's something a miss with part of the turbo tubings.

The engine itself is here http://ajudd.kgbinternet.com/gto/engine_view1.jpg
and as the picture shows it's got an after market HKS super blow off valve
in the left hand corner. If you look at the piping feeding this (better
picture is here http://ajudd.kgbinternet.com/gto/engine_view2.jpg ) you can
see that the tubing out to the HKS has various joins in it to accommodate a
3 way junction and what looks like some sort of filter.

Now, the interesting thing is if you look at the 3 way join, the tube that
comes out of that looks like it has basically been cut. A close up is
http://ajudd.kgbinternet.com/gto/Whats_Missing.jpg and it also looks like a
bit of the pipe has been melting on the tube next to it.

So.. my question I'd appreciate your help on is - what's missing (I'm
guessing a boost controller??), how can I get around it not being there for
the short term, will this fix the strange kangarooing problem and what's the
best way to do it.

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 14:16:17 -0700
From: "Greg Gonzales" <92stealthtt@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anti-Lock Brake System

Mine does this as well and the resolution is the same as Rich's. The other
issue I ran into that is similar is when my brake booster hose got cut and
the check valve wasnt working correctly...or the computer thought so. I also
got my ABS light on at that time too. That was a while back though. But do
as Rich suggested and that should work.

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:10:57 -0700
From: "Steve Simonds" <ssimonds121@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Saner Rear Sway bar doesn't fit

I think I know what happened. The rear wheels were hanging free when I
lined up the new sway bar. I installed the sway bar pointing towards the
attachment points on the lower control and of course they didn't reach as
the wheels were two low. When I lowered the car to the ground, resting on
the wheels, the sway bar is now 2" below the lower control arm. If I could
loosen the mountings on the sway bar and rotate the ends up towards the
lower control arm, I believe it would fit fine. Well, I have next weekends
work cut out for me.

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:07:09 -0500
From: "Bob G" <Rguirlinger@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anti-Lock Brake System

Thanks for the info. For tonight, I removed the fuseable link for the ABS.
At least the pump has now stopped running. It will be a few days before I
have time to tackle the relay (I like the suggestion of relocating it). I
don't expect that there will be any problem with continuing to drive the
thing in the interim. Seems to stop ok. Any thoughts?

Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:48:41 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anti-Lock Brake System

There are TWO ABS relays. One costs a billion dollars, and the dealer will
be happy to sell it to you. The other costs $15 and the dealer will pretend
not to know anything about it.

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:59:08 -0000
From: "Alex Judd" <ajudd@enpocket.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Introduction and GTO Kangarooing

Just a brief update to my own question that I've had some good response back (thanks very much) and here's the summary so far.

The cut pipe on the T junction on the dump valve piping is from where a boost controller was removed from the car. This was cut out without reclosing the pipe it was controlling and thus air is leaking out of the hose (at some random control). Potentially removed in transit by the shippers...

Therefore the car is massively over boosting and the ECU is cutting the fuel out to stop the whole thing blowing up when this happens (bad!).

1. Replace the open hose on the T-Junction with a plug/shut pipe.
Should get things basically back to normal..

2. Install a boost controller on the T-Junction
To monitor what the boost is really running at (Andi reckons it's considerably more than the 8PSi it should be)

3. Replace all the vacuum piping on the car.
Boring job but needs to be done. Anyone got any recommendations on piping and bore size to use???