Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, January 29 2004 Volume
02 : Number 357
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:24:41 -0800
Subject: RE: Team3S: Oil Pressure - how low is too low ???
Jim Floyd wrote:
> OK, so a bar is 14.7 pounds of pressure ?
Roughly... 14.5psi= 1 Bar
- --Erik
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:37:18 -0800
Subject: RE: Team3S: Oil Pressure - how low is too low ???
Where are you measuring your oil pressure?
- --Erik
> Damn, that means my engine has about 8 - 10 PSI at 800 RPM idle.
> I put a new oil pump, main and rod bearings about 10,000 miles
ago.
> Am I a candidate for spun bearings ?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:37:28 -0000
Subject: RE: Team3S: Oil Pressure - how low is too low ???
Jim Floyd wrote:
> OK, so a bar is 14.7 pounds of pressure ?
1 atmosphere = 14.7 psi
1 bar = 14.5 psi
1 kg/cm2 = 14.2 psi
- - --
Jim Matthews - Yorkshire, England
*** Team3S, 3SI #0030, GTOUK #155
***
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:36:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: Team3S: Oil Pressure - how low is too low ???
Damn, that means my engine has about 8 - 10 PSI at 800 RPM idle.
I put a new oil pump, main and rod bearings about 10,000 miles ago.
Am I a candidate for spun bearings ?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:30:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: solid, slotted, dimpled, drilled (was: Rebuilding
StopTech brakes)
Cast/drilled..wont change a thing.
A round object will still expand/contract and crack under stress the
same
way...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:55:38 -0500
Subject: Team3S: Holy Cow! (was: Rebuilding Porsche Calipers)
Holy cow! I suspected that StopTech was THE ANSWER to all our brake
problems but I just did not know to exactly what extent. Now I
do!
Seals and Dust Boots for StopTech ST-40, Viper stock, Brembo F40/F50
and
***Porsche 993*** stock front - $50/caliper!
Please show your support and place orders for StopTech products
through
Supercar Engineering. Take a 10% off discount (!) and calculate your
total
cost at -10% off plus $10 shipping (for simplicity). The PayPal address
is
at the bottom of every "Product" section of the Supercar Engineering
website. Same applies to all other products from this catalog:
Philip
(notes:
Full brake kits - please inquire.
The pdf catalog has a typo in this seals section. All the seal kits
are
$50/caliper,
I already called to verify)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:57:46 -0000
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: solid, slotted, dimpled, drilled (was: Rebuilding
StopTech brakes)
I would think that a rotor cast with holes would be structurally superior
to
a solid cast rotor that was drilled. Either way, I don't plan to
try.
Out of curiosity, how much friction area is sacrificed by
drilling/dimpling?
I wonder if it's enough to make up the difference between rotor
sizes. For
example, compare the surface areas of StopTech's 355mm rotor with
their
332mm rotor:
PI*((355-248)/2)^2 = 8992 mm^2
PI*((332-226)/2)^2 = 8825 mm^2
difference: 167 mm^2 (* 2 to include both sides)
Now what if the 355mm rotor was drilled/dimpled and the 332mm rotor
was
solid? I don't know how many holes there are or how big each
is. Is
slotting as much of a sacrifice?
- - --
Jim Matthews - Yorkshire, England
*** Team3S, 3SI #0030, GTOUK #155
***
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:58:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Team3S: Jack / tools with VR4
Hi, quick question - where is the jack located for our cars? I got my
little toolbag back from the shop and it only has the lug wrench and
another curved bar. I coldnt find the jack in the car anywhere (its
not
under the spare is it)?
Thanks
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:03:54 -0600
Subject: Re: Team3S: Jack / tools with VR4
Behind the license plate. Well, sort of. Take off the little access
panel
inside the hatch, and look in there.
Rich
At 03:58 PM 1/28/2004 -0500, Michael Baldwin wrote:
>Hi, quick question - where is the jack located for our cars? I got
my
>little toolbag back from the shop and it only has the lug wrench
and
>another curved bar. I coldnt find the jack in the car anywhere (its
not
>under the spare is it)?
>
>Thanks
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:37:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: Jack / tools with VR4
LOL! I actually noticed the "lack of a jack" on the dealer lot. I got
$10
off the price of the car because the jack was not there! I
then
proceeded to buy a little hydraulic jack from a car parts store. Only
after
about half a year I started popping various interior covers working
on
other things and found a jack! I bet there are quite a few 3/S owners
who
still do not know that they have a jack in the trunk.
Philip
- ---------------------------------
Behind the license plate. Well, sort of. Take off the little access
panel
inside the hatch, and look in there.
Rich
At 03:58 PM 1/28/2004 -0500, Michael Baldwin wrote:
>Hi, quick question - where is the jack located for our cars? I got
my
>little toolbag back from the shop and it only has the lug wrench
and
>another curved bar. I coldnt find the jack in the car anywhere (its
not
>under the spare is it)?
>
>Thanks
>
>Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:37:51 -0800
Subject: RE: Team3S: Jack / tools with VR4 OT
I actually never found mine until recently. Popped two tires and had to
walk
home to get one of my floor jacks because I couldn't find mine in the
car.
Mike Guy
92 Stealth SOHC
- -----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Jack / tools with VR4
LOL! I actually noticed the "lack of a jack" on the dealer lot. I got
$10
off the price of the car because the jack was not there! I
then
proceeded to buy a little hydraulic jack from a car parts store. Only
after
about half a year I started popping various interior covers working
on
other things and found a jack! I bet there are quite a few 3/S owners
who
still do not know that they have a jack in the trunk.
Philip
- ---------------------------------
Behind the license plate. Well, sort of. Take off the little access
panel
inside the hatch, and look in there.
Rich
At 03:58 PM 1/28/2004 -0500, Michael Baldwin wrote:
>Hi, quick question - where is the jack located for our cars? I got
my
>little toolbag back from the shop and it only has the lug wrench
and
>another curved bar. I coldnt find the jack in the car anywhere (its
not
>under the spare is it)?
>
>Thanks
>
>Mike
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 17:37:44 -0500
Subject: RE: Team3S: Jack / tools with VR4
$10 bucks off, Philip? What did that do to your car payment?
LOL
- -----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Jack / tools with VR4
LOL! I actually noticed the "lack of a jack" on the dealer lot. I got
$10
off the price of the car because the jack was not there! I
then
proceeded to buy a little hydraulic jack from a car parts store. Only
after
about half a year I started popping various interior covers working
on
other things and found a jack! I bet there are quite a few 3/S owners
who
still do not know that they have a jack in the trunk.
Philip
- ---------------------------------
Behind the license plate. Well, sort of. Take off the little access
panel
inside the hatch, and look in there.
Rich
At 03:58 PM 1/28/2004 -0500, Michael Baldwin wrote:
>Hi, quick question - where is the jack located for our cars? I got
my
>little toolbag back from the shop and it only has the lug wrench
and
>another curved bar. I coldnt find the jack in the car anywhere (its
not
>under the spare is it)?
>
>Thanks
>
>Mike
Above email is for intended recipient only and may be confidential and
protected by attorney/client privilege.
If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender
immediately.
Unauthorized use or distribution is prohibited and may be unlawful.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:12:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: solid, slotted, dimpled, drilled (was: Rebuilding
StopTech brakes)
Wouldn't friction area be determined by subtracting area 2 (inner circle)
from
area 1(outer circle?
(pi*(355/2)^2) - (pi*(248/2)^2) = 50,674 mm^2,
(pi*(332/2)^2) - (pi*(226/2)^2) = 46,454 mm^2
difference = 4220 mm^2
50,674 mm^2 is about 78.5 square inches. 8992 mm^2 is about 14 square
inches
or less frictional area then Fred Flinstone's feet (old cartoon where
Fred
stopped car by dragging feet on ground).
Glenn
At Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:57:46 -0000, you wrote
>Out of curiosity, how much friction area is sacrificed by
drilling/dimpling?
>I wonder if it's enough to make up the difference between rotor
sizes. For
>example, compare the surface areas of StopTech's 355mm rotor with
their
>332mm rotor:
>
>PI*((355-248)/2)^2 = 8992 mm^2
>PI*((332-226)/2)^2 = 8825 mm^2
>
>difference: 167 mm^2 (* 2 to include both sides)
>
>Now what if the 355mm rotor was drilled/dimpled and the 332mm rotor
was
>solid? I don't know how many holes there are or how big each
is. Is
>slotting as much of a sacrifice?
>
>- --
>Jim Matthews - Yorkshire, England
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:09:21 -0500
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: solid, slotted, dimpled, drilled (was: Rebuilding
StopTech brakes)
Brake it or Break it, you decide,
Size Doesn't matter in this case. Friction is just proportional to
the
total pressure
applied by the pistons, independent of surface area.
The only difference is in depth deformity at the pad / hole
interface,
ridges
or lips will add resistance, but may wear the pad more.
Gassing (theoretically) could lessen actual pressure applied, and/or
lubricate the interface if bad enough. I say theoretically, cause I
don't
know how much out-gassing goes on under what conditions.
Personally I like drilled or slotted, but I don't abuse my brakes much,
so don't worry about warping or cracking like some do.
I like the feel of the pedal and percieved better bite of the
drilled/slotted.
If you do opt for drilled/slotted, then I would suggest using them as
Track
rotors until they need turning, then use them as street rotors or
track spares.
Kurt
- -----Original Message-----
Of Jim Matthews
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 11:58 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: solid, slotted, dimpled, drilled (was:
Rebuilding StopTech brakes)
I would think that a rotor cast with holes would be structurally
superior to a solid cast rotor that was drilled. Either way, I
don't
plan to try.
Out of curiosity, how much friction area is sacrificed by
drilling/dimpling? I wonder if it's enough to make up the difference
between rotor sizes. For example, compare the surface areas of
StopTech's 355mm rotor with their 332mm rotor:
PI*((355-248)/2)^2 = 8992 mm^2
PI*((332-226)/2)^2 = 8825 mm^2
difference: 167 mm^2 (* 2 to include both sides)
Now what if the 355mm rotor was drilled/dimpled and the 332mm rotor
was
solid? I don't know how many holes there are or how big each
is. Is
slotting as much of a sacrifice?
- - --
Jim Matthews - Yorkshire, England
*** Team3S, 3SI #0030, GTOUK #155
***
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:06:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Team3S: Oil Pressure - how low is too low ???
The service manual says the limit is 11.0 or 11.4 psi at idle depending
on
what book/section you read. Anything less deserves investigation.
That being said I see 15-19 psi at idle depending on oil temp (195-235
F
respectively) with M1 15W50.
Trevor
96 R/T TT
- ----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 8:30 AM
Subject: Team3S: Oil Pressure - how low is too low ???
> I just installed my Greedy oil pressure gage and I want to set the
warning
light. How low is too low for the oil pressure in our cars - crusing
vs.
idle ?
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:32:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Team3S: Bent suspension? Mech in SF?
> ----snip----> and I am in SF (Pacifica). By the way, any good
mechanics in
the Bay Area?
> Thanks,
> Ed Vinces
> 91 VR4
- ------------------------------>
Wynn's Motors (Oak/VanNess) has done great work on dozens of our Bay
Area
members' cars. I've got my VR-4 in there now... Check the "Good
Guys" page
in the FAQ for contact info, ask for Willy. He gives a Team3S
discount, but
he's not cheap - just very fair prices, and still way less than the
dealers
charge. And he's meticulous - you get what you pay for. For me,
he's done
turbo swaps, installed an engine, suspension, brake, A/C work..., (and
today,
trashed idler pulley/belt stuff). I've used him for my Stealth NT and
my
VR-4. Great work. Nice guy, too...
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:59:05 -0500
Subject: Team3S: spun a bearing by over revving engine
I own a 92 Stealth R/T TT and I left my friend drive it. That was
a
mistake. He went to down shift to 3rd gear and stuck it in
first. We were
going about 65-70 MPH and he left out the clutch. He froze and i
ripped it
out of first gear. From what I figured it was about 10,500 RPM.
The car
started to back fire and we tried to keep the car going so we could get
it
off the road. The Stealth died and wouldn't restart. About a
minute later
I tried to start it again and it started up. I drove away and it ran
fine.
I drove it for about 51-56 miles after that and ran fine. No loss of
power
or noise from the engine. Then it spun a connecting rod
bearing. What do
you think I should do? The engine in my stealth is twin turbo but it
is not
a 92. This engine came out of a 96 stealth and as of now it only has
41,000
miles on it. It also has been over heated once because of a
stuck
thermostat. The temp was over 300 deg. F because the check engine
light
came on. When I ripped the car apart I found chips and peices of
the
bearing in the oil pan. Could the chips harm any thing in the engine
like
clog a lifter or some thing. The main bearings were burned up too
but
didn't spin. Could the cam bearings be harmed by this too? I
heard the
lifters tapping before this happened but not very often. Should I
replace
them now? Here is what I'm replacing as of now: Timing belt,
Clutch, Crank
with new bearings, Fuel filter, Side mounter mount(broken because of
this),
Oil pump, Water pump, and a tune up. I think i should put new head
gaskets
on it but I'm not sure. Thank you for your time and sorry that it is
so
long but I wanted to tell the whole story. If you have any questions
and/or
anything that can help me that would be great. Thanks
Preston Clever
Greencastle, Pa USA
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:54:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Team3S: spun a bearing by over revving engine
I personally think you should hold yer pal responsible for the
mistake.
This is where you find out whos a friend..and whos a small claims
lawsuit
target.
You dont have to sue a friend..to do whats right.
- ---
"If it's in stock, we have it!"
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter.
NASA USTCC brake vendor and lead Pro-7 Sponsor.
New OEM parts for Toyota shipped worldwide.
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:48:04 -0600
Subject: Fw: Team3S: spun a bearing by over revving engine
You will at least have to have the rod rebuilt that had the spun
bearing.
I'd go and have them all redone while you are there.
Metal particles will end up everywhere. You should have the block
cleaned
out.
If it was me, I'd have the block honed and put in new rings.
You will need a full gasket set.
Basically, you should do a full rebuild instead of only going half
way
trying to only replace certain parts.
Rich
- ----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 9:59 PM
Subject: Team3S: spun a bearing by over revving engine
> I own a 92 Stealth R/T TT and I left my friend drive it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:43:49 -0800
Subject: RE: Team3S: spun a bearing by over revving engine
I had a very similar thing happen almost 2 years ago when I was racing
a
modded VR6 Corrado. I was coming out of 3rd (125mph) going to 4th and put
it
in 2nd by mistake. I had 2 beers about 3 hours earlier and blame the
mistake
on poor focus. That day I made the rule of no racing within 24 hours
of
consuming ANY alcohol. For about 2-3 seconds the engine had to have been
at
more than 11,000 RPM, maybe more. Same thing happened - bad backfire,
car
died, wouldn't start for a little while then it started right up and
ran
with no problems for a number of months. As stupid as a mistake like
this
is, I really do not think that it will cause a spun bearing.
The reason all of that happens is because the rev limiter that is set a
hair
under 7000RPM will kick in and stop your spark plugs from sparking in
an
effort to slow the engine RPM down. Your injectors however are still
spraying and because there is now no spark to light the gasoline, it
starts
to collect in the cylinder and get pushed out into the exhaust. The
hot
exhaust pipes and catalitic converters ignite the gasoline causing the
car
to backfire in the exhaust and the engine becomes very flooded which is
why
it does not want to start for a while.
>From what I understand, the reason that our engines cannot go into
higher
RPMs are mainly due to valve interference. The valve springs are not
strong
enough to push the valve back into it's hole before the piston comes up
and
slaps it. Stronger titanium valve springs can be added (for about $700)
but
then you run the problem with the valves smacking into their seats with
much
more pressure and causing damage that way. Then you go to titanium
valves
and the RPM redline can be pushed up.
Spun bearings occur due to too much friction and not enough oil going to
the
bearing. Higher RPM will certainly cause more friction. I read once that
for
every 1000RPM friction in a motor doubles. However, with higher RPM your
oil
pump will spin a hell of a lot faster providing more oil than needed.
Bottom line although high RPM like that is not good for the car, your
main
concern should be about the valves possibly being dinged. To test for
this,
do a compression check. If your car ran fine without any ill-effects
afterwards, I would bet that the valves made it through OK. Having as
the
high RPM condition lasted only a few seconds and this was a one time
thing,
I doubt that it had much to do with your spun bearing. It may have
contributed to a bad bearing going out sooner, but it would have
happened
very soon anyway.
Slap your friend around and have him help you put your car back
together.
That will be punishment enough I know, I pulled 3 engines out of my
VR4
last year...
Tyson Varosyan
Technical Manager, Uptime Technical Solutions LLC.
206-715-TECH (8324)
UpTime/OnTime/AnyTime
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:40:07 -0500
Subject: RE: Team3S: spun a bearing by over revving engine
> ...with higher RPM your oil pump will spin a hell of a lot
faster
providing more oil than needed.
That seems logical but may not always be the case. This is something that
I
think it worth studying more deeply. The main concern in the oil pump
operation at higher RPM is cavitation. You may actual *lose* pressure
if
you spin your oil pump too fast.
Same goes to the water pumps. On some race cars people actually slow
down
their water pumps to help cooling by maintaining the water flow at
higher
RPMs that are seen during racing. I took our 3/S pump to a pump expert
here
and he was actually quite impressed with the pump design. He said that
it
should flow at least as much water as the Viper's pump and possibly
more.
He also did not see any opportunities for improvement. So this means
that
our water pumps are not likely to be the reason for overheating at
the
track, however it would still be good to see if they cavitate at 5-6K
RPM
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:40:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: RE: Team3S: spun a bearing by over revving engine
Yep, pumps are not linear in output..huge mistake there.
- ---
"If it's in stock, we have it!"
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter.
NASA USTCC brake vendor and lead Pro-7 Sponsor.
New OEM parts for Toyota shipped worldwide.
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:45:11 -0600
Subject: Team3S: Datalogger on ebay...
Has anyone had any experience with this:
item=2457058334
I'm strong considering purchasing it, but would like to hear from
anyone
who has used this setup before I do.
- -Jeff Crabtree
'91 Stealth R/T TT (3SI
#0499)
2K Jeep TJ Sport
St. Louis, MO
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:53:46 -0600
Subject: Team3S: Ebay link...again
For some reason, the link didn't work right. Here it is again:
item=2457058334
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:15:18 -0600
Subject: Team3S: Datalogger cables on ebay...link's not working..
Ok...so I'm not sure what's wrong the link is wrapping when I try to
copy and paste it.
There's a guy selling datalogger cables on ebay for around $45.
I'm
pretty sure we had a discussion about this a while back. Now
I'm
curious if I could hear from someone who has used this
setup...especially if you had a negative experience with it.
Thanks,
-Jeff Crabtree
'91 Stealth R/T TT (3SI
#0499)
2K Jeep TJ Sport
St. Louis, MO
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:39:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: Datalogger cables on ebay...link's not working..
OK here is the old thread on this cable....I never got a reply from
this
member...I was also interested but never got any feedback on the
subject
after he purchased the cable.
Gene
'92 DOHC NT
Donald,
Did you receive your cable yet, if so how is it? I have been thinking
of
buying one from this guy and would appreciate your feedback.
Gene
92'DOHC NT
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #357
***************************************