Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth  Thursday, January 22 2004  Volume 02 : Number 351
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:21:19 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Syncros?
 
It could just be the gear oil. Try Pennzoil Synchromesh and see if you notice a difference.
 
http://www.stealth316.com/2-pennzoil-synchromesh.htm
http://www.stealth316.com/2-awddrainfill.htm
 
Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:15:44 -0500
From: Planet <planet.j@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
I know this sounds stupid but where can I get solid metal gaskets. They
only stock paper ones and paper that is sandwitched between thin metal.
Both don't work. They called dealer to see which one to use and dealer
had no idea. So where do I get a gasket that wont blow. Its funny how
3SX provided me with paper gaskets but they did not work.
 
Help please, already blown 5 times.
 
Jason
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:26:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
Id suggest that the flanges are not mating up square..
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:42:41 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <nouveau3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
We are working on producing dead soft aluminum gaskets for our cars. I'm
hoping to have these available mid-late february.
Shawn Keren
Drunken Bear Auto Accessories.
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:45:22 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
I agree.  Or the flanges themselves are warped or twisted.
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:56:36 -0800
From: "Guy, Michael (CS)" <michael.guy@ngc.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
I called 3sx. after my gaskets started to do this, and they sent me a set of
OEM metal Mitsu gaskets. Try that.
 
Mike Guy
92 Stealth SOHC
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:21:06 -0600
From: "xwing" <xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
Hmm aluminum.  On the after-turbine downpipe area, it MIGHT survive...but I
question it.  Aluminum MELTS dude (I THINK it was Pontiac that made some
aluminum cast headers in the early 60's, that did just that...and that isn't
a turbo motor).
I have MELTED the stainless steel gasket out between my TD05 turbine and the
downpipe (shaped like a figure 8 sorta)...if there is any leakage of hot
gases, it eventually melts through.  However, that is with the ?30-50psi
pressurized 16-1780F gas; on the AFTER turbine side, at hopefully just 2-10
psi  (how good is your exhaust?) there is maybe 200-250F less temp, and way
less pressure.
 
You probably have thought of this, but what is the melting point of your
dead soft aluminum?  I think it's higher than copper...what about embossed
stainless steel or multilayer stainless?  Just throwing some thoughts out
there.
JT
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:45:06 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <nouveau3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
These would be for the gaskets between the precats and the downpipe as well
as at the cat.
Pure aluminum melts at 660.37 Celcius. The alloy that we are using will be
somewhat higher.
Good point though, anyone have temps at these points.
 

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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:38:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
Of course it melts..but..I think that more than a few inches past the
turbo it would survive just fine in a non-stress-bearing environment.
 
After all..the pistons are aluminum..thats the hot spot.
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:49:27 -0500
From: Planet <planet.j@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
Im not totally sure on what gaskets they were using but they were crap.
I was just contacted my 3SX they had run out of the correct gaskets and
since my order was backorder( I was bit naggy) they shipped
without them. They are sending me the proper metal ones at no charge.
Well I guess even the SOHC can do good
work on cheap general gaskets.
 
Jason
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:58:06 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
> These would be for the gaskets between the precats and the
> downpipe as well as at the cat.
> Pure aluminum melts at 660.37 Celcius. The alloy that we are
> using will be somewhat higher.
> Good point though, anyone have temps at these points.
 
In my VR-4, the exhaust gas temps in the downpipe are routinely 740C-760C.  I've seen them as high as 780C on occasion.  That measurement is about as close to the downpipe gaskets as you can get - an inch or two downstream of the flanges for each bank.  My VR-4 is running 14psi of boost on stock turbos with minor power modifications (filter, downpipe, high-perf pre-cats) AND water injection.  WI seems to make for a 10-20C reduction in my EGTs.
 
- --Erik
'95 VR-4  www.team3s.com/~egross
 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:57:29 -0500
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject: Team3S: Pistons and pads update: 328-355mm StopTech Brake Kits!
 
Great news on the piston sizes and pads. The final optimized and
recommended piston sizes are still TBD, but that is not even that relevant
anymore. Get this: StopTech has a practice of making other piston sizes
available with their standard kits. The piston sizes that can be used range
from 28 to 44 mm at no additional charge!! Any custom combination that you
need, try to get that from other brake manufacturers! I love StopTech!
 
The only catch (requirement) is that you need to provide a good explanation
as to why you would want to deviate from the recommended and optimized
piston sizes. The reason for this requirement is two-fold. First - safety.
Odd piston sizes can make a car unsafe. Second - neither StopTech nor any
of us would want to have sub-standard cars driving around and sport
StopTech brakes. The explanation part is your job, so if you are convinced
that your car needs unique piston sizes do your homework and provide a good
explanation.
 
Pads: Axxis Ultimate pads are the standard pads that come with the kit. If
you prefer other pads, and do not want Axxis Ultimate, then StopTech or
Supercar Engineering will take them back and provide other pads of your
choice for $40 off of their retail price. Another possibility is to provide
a $40 credit and ship the kit without pads and leave buying the pads up to
you. Virtually all small and large brake pad manufacturers have pads for
these calipers. I recommend either staying with Axxis Ultimate, which are
good pads, or specifying Carbotech Bobcat (or Panther) pads as an extra
upgrade: http://supercar-engineering.com/prod80-brakepads.htm I will throw
in free shipping on Carbotech pads if ordered with the kit.
 
Philip
http://supercar-engineering.com
 

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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:41:31 -0500
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Removing Cats for more power...
 
Installing the rear precat eliminator is harder than replacing the rear
turbo because you have to take one out, IIRC. Gutting stock precats is very
messy but easier because you can do it on the car and all you have to take
off the car is the downpipe and the front precat. If you gut the rear
precat on the car, be careful not to damage the rear O2 sensor.
 
I run a modified Stillen downpipe with a high-flow main cat. I actually
welded my own rear precat eliminator that utilizes the upper part of the
original rear precat with the O2 bung. I did that while installing 15G
turbos, so removing and installing the rear precat was easy.
 
Philip
 
- -------------------------
 
Other than cost, is there any reason folks go to the trouble of gutting
precats rather than replacing them with precat eliminators?  How hard would
it be to swap them out on the rear turbo?
 
- - --
Jim Matthews - Yorkshire, England
 
 
 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:22:39 +0100
From: Engelmann Peter A Maj AFELM PEP <peter.engelmann@ramstein.af.mil>
Subject: Team3S: Back to the Brakes!
 
Chuck, Roger, Jim,
 
Guten Tag again from Germany!  Had to table the brakes problem for a while,
was busy with other things.  All done now, though, so it's back to the
brakes.
 
One stage-setting comment--fortunately, money is not an issue.  So I'm not
necessarily concerned with solutions that differ by a few hundred dollars.
I do start paying attention when it gets over a thousand, which the
following discussion of 1st vs. 2nd gen boils down to.
 
Chuck, you had mentioned in an earlier e-mail that the best solution for the
shortest amount of time and least amount of money is stock first gen
calipers all the way around.  After doing more research, I agree.  Getting
second gen calipers would require second gen wheels.  Checking a few OEM web
sites, it sounds like that's about $1000 for all 4 wheels.  Used would of
course be cheaper, but Mitsu Motors Deutschland tells me used parts for
3000s are practically nonexistent here (and you can forget Dodge
entirely--they're rarer than the Mitsus).  And from the web postings over
the last month, I see there is an issue with wheel fit, so worst case for me
is I order something used from the States, it doesn't fit, and I have to
send it back and start over.  So if I go 2nd gen, I'll bite the bullet and
buy new OEM rims.  And wouldn't I need new tires as well?  (I've got 245/45
R17s.  Would they fit on the 2nd gen wheels?)
 
Easiest solution right now is 1st gen cryoed Porterfields and R4S pads all
the way around, plus new front calipers.  (Chuck, it is indeed the dust
covers that are missing, not the internal seals.  Still, it let in enough
dirt that the pistons are now scored along the sides.  That's why the
mechanic is adamant a simple rebuild is insufficient.  I trust the mechanic
on this--he's had plenty of opportunity to "suggest" other work [another
topic, so I won't go into detail here], and he's been honest and not tried
to sell me stuff I know I don't need.  Heck, he probably COULD have talked
me into getting new rear calipers as well, but he assured me those are fine.
So I don't think he's kidding with the front ones.)
 
Only question I have is about an earlier response from Roger:  "For sure 2nd
gen."  So here's my question:  how much of an improvement is 2nd gen over
1st gen COMPARED TO the improvement I'll already get in going from stock
rotors/pads to the cryoed Porterfields/R4Ss?  In other words, I suspect that
I will get a LARGE improvement in getting the new 1st gen rotors/pads, and
that the ADDITIONAL improvement in getting the larger 2nd gen size is SMALL
in comparison.  Is that correct?  Or is the additional improvement worth (in
your opinions, Roger and Jim, since you've both driven on the Autobahns
here) the additional trouble (new rims, possibly new tires, used calipers--I
can get 3 of 4 from Jim, but would still need to track down 1 more)?
 
Finally narrowing down my choices....
 
Oh yeah, before I forget...Roger, you mentioned an ECU problem.  News to me,
but I see from the recent web posts that ECUs are prone to fail.  Mine's
fine as far as I know, but I presume you're warning me it could go at any
time?  (Sigh....)
 
OK, one more afterburner...stainless steel brake lines.  I've heard pros and
cons about how much brake performance these add compared to rotors/pads.
Definitely necessary for the Autobahn?  Or only for racecars?  (Like I said,
not a money issue--but I don't want to think I've just thrown it away,
either.)
 
Thanks again, gents...this forum is a TREASURE TROVE of information!  Wish I
had known about you guys YEARS AGO!!
 
Pete Engelmann
92 jet black Stealth RT TT, 123K, no mods
 
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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:07:52 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Back to the Brakes!
 
Please realize that the stock brakes are adequate.
That is, they will stop you ONCE from 130+ mph.
They might warp the rotors doing it, but they WILL stop the car.
Problem is, they can't do it twice, which is why stock brakes don't work
for us road racers.
 
Going to cryoed rotors will cure the warping problem, and running better
pads will help the fade problem. For the street, I'd go with Carbotech
street pads instead of R4S, but that's just my opinion. Ask Philip G at
SupercarEngineering for a recommendation on street Carbotechs. Also, I
think Geoff has a better street/performance pad than the old R4S.
 
If you are just running autobahns and back roads, all this will work well
for you.
 
If you are running DEs, that is an entirely different issue. Stock 1st gen
brakes don't work on DEs unless you are like Chuck Willis, and know how to
brake. If you are an experienced racer with lots of track time, then you
might get by OK with 1st gen brakes. Chuck does.
 
If not, then you need to upgrade your brakes while you are learning, or you
will spend half your  track time in the pits changing pads and rotors (been
there, done that!). On a track, I bet 1st gens won't last a rookie driver a
single track day unless he learns brake management techniques. As you point
out, upgrading to bigger rotors or other solutions also requires a set of
2nd gen wheels, so you certainly have an expensive problem.
 
Rich/slow old poop
 
 
 
At 05:22 PM 1/22/2004 +0100, Engelmann Peter A Maj AFELM PEP wrote:
>Chuck, Roger, Jim,
>
>Guten Tag again from Germany!  Had to table the brakes problem for a while,
>was busy with other things.  All done now, though, so it's back to the
>brakes.
>
 

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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:41:25 -0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Downpipe blowing gaskets
 
It's unlikely aluminum will hold up.
The best gaskets are wound gaskets, a sealing material and a backing
material, spiral wound to have multiple barriers.
 
The link below gives some material info, and they may have an idea to
get what you want or maybe they can make some for an almost reasonable price.
 
http://www.fortworthgasket.com/gasket.htm
HIGH TEMPERATURE MATERIALS
Fort Worth Gasket & Supply can provide solutions to high temperature requirements with temperatures up to 3900 degree Fahrenheit (F).
 
MATERIALS
 
 Non-asbestos carbon fiber w/ nitrile binder 800F.
 Graphite sheet 1200F.
 Graphite on 316 S/S 900F.
 Fiberglass 1000F.
 Vermiculite coated fiberglass 1500F.
 Silica fabrics 2300F with excursions to 3000F.
 Ceramic board (moldable) 2100F.
 Zicronia insulators (machinable) 3900F.
 
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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:51:18 -0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: Removing Cats for more power...
 
Plus the 'biggie' is, it still passes the look for precat smog test.
Kurt
 
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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:51:06 -0600
From: "xwing" <xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Back to the Brakes!
 
Peter:
The 2nd gen brakes definitely are an improvement over the 1st gen.  I have a
93 and a 94VR4 and have roadraced and street driven both; the larger
diameter rotors allow more heavy usage before fade sets in.  Is it perfect?
No, but it is significant enough if money is object, to try to do a
conversion on the front brakes at least, to the larger ~12.2" diameter 2nd
gen brakes (1st gen are ~11.7", I forget maybe).
 
I haven't tried cryo treatment, but since some people have problems OR LACK
of problems BOTH ways, I still wonder how much benefit cryo REALLY is,
over/above the randomly observed variances in success rates with rotors one
sees anyway...whether it is the way they were cast that day at the
ironworks, the temps, the use, the pads, the driver, OR is it all just cryo?
Still skeptical on spending the $ on that.  IMO go for 2nd gen front brakes
before thinking about cryo, as far as braking ability improvement.
 
You have to get new pads either way so that is a wash.
 
You need larger stock 17" rims for the 2nd gen brakes; but can reuse your
TIRES.  My 94 was the year that had the 2nd gen brakes, STILL with 17" rims
(but they were redesigned vs. 1st gen to clear).  The 94 2nd gen 17" rims
sure wouldn't fit my Brembo 14" brakes though.
 
Stainless brakelines make the pedal a bit firmer in application/more linear,
but not very MUCH difference IMHO.   Get them sometime to be complete; they
are better, but don't beat yourself up about them.
Jack T.
 

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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:11:36 -0600
From: "William J. Crabtree" <wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject: Team3S: Car running but needs tweaking
 
Ok guys,
 
        Build 2.0 is almost complete.  I got my car out and drove it
around the neighborhood the other day and I need some quick advice on
things to check/look for.
 
        It's idling fine, but on light to moderate acceleration, I get
stuttering and what sounds like backfiring.  Could it be the CAS?  I'm
certain the timing belt is right and all vacuum hoses are connected.
Plugs and plug wires are brand new(ngk/denso platinums with MSD wires).
What other possibilities could there be to cause this?
 

        Funny, I didn't have this problem at all last time...just
slapped it together and it worked!(for a while)
 
- -Jeff
 
       
 

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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:24:21 -0000
From: "Jim Matthews" <jim@the-matthews.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Back to the Brakes!
 
Autobahn driving involves repeated deceleration from 130+ down to 70 or so,
conditions that quickly overwhelmed my stock 2nd gen brakes (Stillen Metal
Matrix pads made little difference, BTW).  Brake management is critical for
stretching performance at the track, but it doesn't come in to play when a
Stau appears around the bend or some Dummkopf pulls into your lane without
checking the mirrors.  For my car, cryoed rotors and R4-S pads resisted
warping and fade (to an extent), but I don't know if the smaller 1st gen
system would benefit as much/enough (I have no experience with 1st gen
brakes).  I didn't notice any difference after installation of the stainless
lines, though I bet they help at the track (I've never tried stock lines at
the track).
 
If your wheels can accommodate 2nd gen rotors and calipers, that's what I'd
suggest; I'd be happy to MPS mine to your APO once my upgrade arrives if
you'd like to test things out.  If your wheels can't accommodate 2nd gen
rotors and calipers, then gambling on better rotors and pads for your 1st
gen setup would be the cheapest route.  If I had to buy wheels, I'd bite the
bullet and go bigger than the stock 2nd gen setup.
 
- - --
Jim Matthews - Yorkshire, England
 
       *** Team3S, 3SI #0030, GTOUK #155 ***
      http://www.the-matthews.com/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
 

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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:34:01 -0800
From: Gizmo <kdmorg@comcast.net>
Subject: Team3S: Wrong information. Sorry experts....
 
Hi Folks,
 
To all who informed me that the '93 Stealth N/A comes with or uses
R-134a refridgerent as standard and that I did not need to specify
R1-34a when ordering a new reciever/dryer......aeaaeaaeaae(insert
incredibly annoying noise here) wrong answer.
 
Both the manual and the decal on the bottom of the hood say R-12. If you
are using R-134a in the 91-93 years then your system has been converted
to use that refriderent. I hope the new receiver will work...I took your
advise.
 
Regards,
 
Keith/Gizmo
 

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #351
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