Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Sunday, January 4
2004 Volume 02 : Number 336
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Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 13:51:13 -0800
Subject: Re: Team3S: What about GC?
> >> While there is no lack of subjective opinions about "the
best"
> >> suspension, I will try to summarize the differences between
the
> >> available suspension upgrades.
> >>
- -------------------> >
> It's a shame you didn't compare Ground Control to the Tein and
Jic.
> I have GC suspension set up for road racing and, while it is not
the
greatest in the world, it does the job. It corners absolutely neutral
and
allows me to keep up with virtually anything in corners except
race-prepped
lightweight Porsches. Hoosiers might allow that.
- -----------snip-------->
I agree that the GC setup is more than adequate for all but the most
advanced
school DE applications. I have the JICs on the VR-4 and the GC
coilovers with
stock struts on the Stealth NT (GAB struts are not made for non-turbo
models).
On both cars, I got better corner-weighting with the rears lowered
(approx.)
2" and the fronts lowered 1.5".
If you have a track-only car, Tommy, get JICs. No contest. It's
an
entry-level racing suspension, and not meant for anything else. If
you're a
regular at track events but you still drive on the street, get the
Tein. For
just an occasional track event and a good solid (but comfortable)
everyday
ride, my vote goes to the GC coilover setup. (Especially since it's
$900?
cheaper than the Tein.). And if you just want to be able to take
turns a bit
tighter on the street, and lower your car 1.3", a cheap alternative is
the
Eibach ProKit. The Eibachs are only a few bucks less than the GCs,
but the
GCs require helper springs to be safe, which adds $100. I used the
Eibachs
for years and I still have them as backups, since handling is so
predictable
with them.
I like the idea of Philip's JIC "add-on springs", but I'm reluctant to
spend
the money - I don't know if I'll like them. Will they throw off my
high-speed
handling to have two separate spring rates operating at once? Only
the driver
can answer that, and it's all relative to driving style, track, etc.
If they
work, that's a great price (kudos, Philip!), but for someone like me
who
doesn't do his own car work, it's a $500 "maybe", by the time I pay
for
labor... Not in my budget, but I can't wait to hear feedback from
others. My
car lifts at least one wheel (sometimes two!) when even entering a
raised
driveway at an angle, so I'd love a more 'streetable' JIC setup.
There are
even a couple of turns at Sears Point and Laguna Seca where I lose
contact on
one corner because of the JICs' stiffness. It's hard enough taking
Turn 2 at
SPR at 90mph on 4 wheels; on 3 wheels, it gets a bit dicey... (And
BTW,
Philip, I run my JICs at full soft, *not* full hard, and they are still
like a
rock - TEC front tower bar, stock swaybars).
PS: On the track, Rich, Hoosiers might make a difference IF you've got
$1000+
to drop for a single weekend's driving, like for a money race.
Hoosiers are
the best you can get once they get heat cycled, but as soon as they
cool
completely, it's well-known that they lose more than HALF of their
exceptional
sticky qualities. Good'n'hot Proxes RA-1s will do just fine, Rich,
and
they'll do it for many events. Hoosiers are "single-event" racing
tires, and
a waste of money for anything else (unless your money tree is back
up). ;-)
Best,
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 17:02:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: What about GC?
> >>I will try to summarize the differences between the
> >> available suspension upgrades.
> >>
> >
>It's a shame you didn't compare Ground Control to the Tein and
Jic.
Yeah, but then I will have add the Eibach and Intrax springs to the mix as
well. And Ground Control is just a spring upgrade like the two above and
not a full suspension upgrade like Ground Control wants all of us to think.
So Tommy will still have to do something about his worn shocks, which is
why he asked the question in the first place. Of course there is some
narrow selection of shock upgrade options out there but I never meant to
write an all-encompassing summary, sorry.
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 17:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Team3S: Need New Suspension - Tein HA vs JIC Magic
Too bad about the rear springs on the Flex. My Teins have
performed well
in auto-x and on the street. I was hoping to go to the Flex (if
they had
dropped rates front & rear). I drive the car daily on the
street
......... Philly streets are not friendly to springs that
stiff.
Although, I thought someone here had made mention that you could buy
replacement springs of different rates. Would like to go with
10/6's or
even 9/6's (I'm running f&r Saner bars already). Any word
on replacement
springs for Teins?
___
Dennis -==-Philly
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 17:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Team3S: What about GC?
Good point about replacing the old struts. Also, doesn't Tein have a
lifetime warrantee? This further offsets initial cost.
___
Dennis -==-Philly
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 17:25:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: What about GC?
At 04:51 PM 1/3/2004, Bob Forrest wrote:
>Will they throw off my high-speed handling to have two separate spring
>rates operating at once? Only the driver can answer that...
Yeah, I am the driver.
It was either these little springs or my small brake upgrade that allowed
me to shave off 9 seconds at Road America last October. That was a 5.5%
increase in the average speed at that track! Of course I would rather think
that I did that solely with my driver talent.
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:53:36 -0800
Subject: Re: Team3S: What about GC?
> At 04:51 PM 1/3/2004, Bob Forrest wrote:
> >Will they throw off my high-speed handling to have two separate
spring
> >rates operating at once? Only the driver can answer
that...
>
> Yeah, I am the driver.
> It was either these little springs or my small brake upgrade that
allowed me
to shave off 9 seconds at Road America last October. That was a 5.5%
increase
in the average speed at that track! Of course I would rather think that I
did
that solely with my driver talent.
> Philip
- ------------------------->
:-) OK, I'll say it correctly this time: "Only the individual'
driver can
answer that". We *knew* your answer, but everybody is
different. I won't
know the answer *for me* until I try them on my car. (Waiting for a
letter
from the money tree store).
5.5%? Yup..., sheer talent - that's the ticket. ;-) And
think of how fast
you would have been if you hadn't stopped for a smoke before Turn 8!
- --F
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 18:39:04 -0500
Subject: Team3S: brake fluid low?
I happened to look at the brake fluid level in the master cylinder of my
"94
Stealth. The rubber cup is extended down
about 1 inch into the cylinder. Is this normal, or is my fluid low
and I
have to add some and reset the rubber cup?
How high a level should the fluid be? The owners manual does not say.
Thanks,
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 18:40:55 -0600
Subject: Re: Team3S: What about GC?
>It was either these little springs or my small brake upgrade that
allowed
>me to shave off 9 seconds at Road America last October. That was a 5.5%
>increase in the average speed at that track! Of course I would rather
think
>that I did that solely with my driver talent.
>
You probably did. As I pointed out before, cutting a full 15 seconds off
a
4 mile lap time at Road America requires only a 5 mph increase in lap
speed. So, 9 seconds is maybe a 3 mph increase. You probably did that
all
by yourself.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 13:37:38 -0800
Subject: Team3S: Timing belt gurus
Hi folks,
It has taken me 3 weeks to get this far. When you are "counting teeth"
where are you counting them from? Between where and where? DOHC NA
- --
Keith Morgavi
AKA Gizmo
Certified Systems Professional
PC Systems and Networks.
Des Moines, WA
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 16:37:16 -0500
Subject: Team3S: Properly testing SCE Tender Springs (was: What
about...)
To bring the discussion back into the technical realm...
I slept on it and I was thinking: Did my test car really become 5.5% (or
3-4 mph) faster or the driver became better? That is a huge difference in
motor racing. In F1 is it the difference between the first and the last
car. And then I remembered that, to answer my own possible questions like
that, I did plan proper testing for my SCE Tender Springs before I finally
installed them.
I ran a back to back without and then with the tender springs at Gingerman
in September. I installed the rear springs at the track between the
sessions on Saturday. The car became so much more smooth that I was able to
go at almost WOT through the esses, even though the asphalt there was
somewhat pitted from people drifting all the time and tearing it up. The
rear springs added a lot of traction in the rear.
Then I installed the front springs on Saturday evening and the next day the
car felt very balanced. It was fast too. I did not review my video tapes
from that event yet, but I could tell that at the end of the straightaways
I was hitting the RPM ranges that I did not dare touch before. I carried
more speed into and through the turns too. I had to adjust my driving
technique a little but that happens all the time when you suddenly have an
increase in speed like that. The best thing was that the car felt grippier,
smoother and safer, which allowed me to push the envelope further.
Philip
P.S. Now about lifting the wheels. There is a good article by Mark Ortiz in
the December issue of Racecar Engineering about racing FWD cars. A lot of
it could be applied to us. If you are traction-limited in the front (which
we are), then you want to lift your inside rear wheel in turns, but only in
the maximum G turns and only barely. If you lift more often or higher than
that, then you car will be sub-optimal from the traction standpoint and
will behave inconsistently in the under/oversteer department.
> >It was either these little springs or my small brake upgrade that
allowed
> >me to shave off 9 seconds at Road America last October. That was a
5.5%
> >increase in the average speed at that track! Of course I would
rather think
> >that I did that solely with my driver talent.
> >
>You probably did. As I pointed out before, cutting a full 15 seconds
off a
>4 mile lap time at Road America requires only a 5 mph increase in
lap
>speed. So, 9 seconds is maybe a 3 mph increase. You probably did that
all
>by yourself.
>
>Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 15:47:36 -0600
Subject: RE: Team3S: Timing belt gurus
Don't count teeth - there's no reason to, just line up everything...
It
is best if the crank is off about half a tooth in the
counterclockwise
direction... That way when everything is tensioned, it will rotate
clockwise a hair, making everything line up perfectly....
- -Cody
- -----Original Message-----
Of Gizmo
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 3:38 PM
To: T3S mailing list
Subject: Team3S: Timing belt gurus
Hi folks,
It has taken me 3 weeks to get this far. When you are "counting teeth"
where are you counting them from? Between where and where? DOHC NA
- --
Keith Morgavi
AKA Gizmo
Certified Systems Professional
PC Systems and Networks.
Des Moines, WA
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:01:18 -0800
Subject: RE: Team3S: Timing belt gurus
Don't count teeth! That is a very good method to earn yourself a new
valve
job! Line up all 5 marks (4 cams and crank), tighten the tenssioner,
rotate
the engine clockwise 2 times, check all timing again. Check torque on
all
vital bolts. Then rotate another 10 times, check timing again.
Tyson Varosyan
Technical Manager, Uptime Technical Solutions LLC.
206-715-TECH (8324)
UpTime/OnTime/AnyTime
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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #336
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