Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Saturday, December 13 2003 Volume
02 : Number 321
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:42:36 -0800
Subject: Team3S: Was Engine Starting Problem
ok, The engine is running now, Car drives great ( wierd though... i
just
wen't out one day after not playing with it for a few days and it
started
right up... hey not complaining, right...? :) ...
I have an exhaust leak on the rear of the engine somewhere which isn't a
big
deal.
but... the car idels at close to 2000
and i seam to lose a lot of power when trying to run higher rpms...
the car is TOTALLY stock with the exception that it has 13G turbos
running
stock pressure
What could cause these problems?
and what sparck plug gap would you recommend...?
right now it's dealership stock .042 I think
- -ryan-
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:14:45 -0500
Subject: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill 25hr
A shameless plug for my StopTech kits
Philip
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:55:55 -0600
Subject: Team3S: OT: Stealth Featured in FOX prime time.
Did anyone happen to catch Thursday's episode of "True Calling" on
FOX? As
many of you know, I work for the St. Louis FOX Affiliate and I was
half-heartedly doing my job in master control tonight when I actually
glanced up at our crappy programming to notice a silver First-Gen R/T
turbo
with some sort of a body kit on the front clip and a strange wing
attached
to the rear deck.
I couldn't tell you guys what kit it was(I'm not body kit literate) but
it
was kinda cool that the character's in the show referred to the car as
"the
rich kid's" "hot car"...."sweet ride"....or something of that nature.
Pretty cool seeing on of our own 12+ year old cars featured on a prime
time
show(even if it's ratings are dismal) as being something trendy or
cool.
If I have some time, I'll try to get some grabs of the car and post
them
somewhere.
- -Jeff Crabtree
'91 R/T TT (3SI #0499)
2K Jeep TJ Sport
St. Louis, MO
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:00:02 -0800
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill 25hr
Ok, you got my attention. What is so special about these? Is there a
trick?
Or is the BMW just a lighter car on a bigger brake rotor? My brakes last
6-8
hard pumps and then I might as well downshift to stop cuz the brakes
are
useless.
Tyson Varosyan
Technical Manager, Uptime Technical Solutions LLC.
206-715-TECH (8324)
UpTime/OnTime/AnyTime
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 01:07:55 -0800
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill 25hr
Just to put things in perspective... There's *nothing* special
about
StopTechs - they're just good brakes. So are your stock brakes (with
race
pads and high-temp brake fluid). And, YES, there is a trick.
I'll quote from
my own Race Report post about Team3S racing in the 25-hour Enduro at
Thunderhill: "We finished the race with what we came with-- ONE
set of
brakes, ONE set of rotors, ONE set of tires. The rotors were fine,
the brakes
are still good as a spare set, and the tires *just* got to that sweet
spot
where they do whatever you tell them to do - about the tread of a fully
shaved
tire. That's what brake management is all about - don't use
them." Of course
we had spares, but we just didn't need them...
Did we have StopTech brakes or some other high-tech combo? NO.
We had stock
rotors and (Spec-required) Hawk Blue Pads. And we weren't dawdling,
either.
We *were* racing! Our fastest lap time was 1.4 seconds *faster* than
the team
with the 2 guys who taught us racing (who WON in E3 class). Our
fastest lap
was 1.7 seconds *faster* than pro Davy Jones (two time winner of LeMans)
in
their ES class M3. (Our lap times were also better than the "Road and
Track"
and "Automobile Magazine" teams and FIVE seconds faster than Team
Alfa!) Oh,
yeah - we USED our brakes. We just didn't use them a lot.
;-)
That's the secret-- Back off. If you have to do 6-8 pumps to
slow down, you
went too deep before backing off the accelerator. Part of brake
management is
accelerator management. And part of faster lap times is smoothness -
braking
less, maintaining a controlled momentum through the turn, and getting on
the
gas hard through the apex. How fast you go *in* to a turn means
nothing.
It's all about how fast you come *out* of the turn. Remember the
adages,
"You've got to go slow to go fast" and "Slow in, fast out". Practice
that
before you go and spend a fortune on "purchasing" a solution. See how
fast
you can go around the track with NO brakes. (I'm not kidding!)
All of a
sudden, you'll see just how fast you can be when you start using the
brakes
"just a little". You just might decide that you don't need bigger
brakes
after all.
Best,
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:30:01 +0100
Subject: RE: Team3S: Autobahn Brake Upgrade Continued
Yeah, a couple of people have pointed out that there are only 4 pistons
in
each caliper. My mistake--there were a total of 7 stuck pistons in
both
calipers, of course. Both front calipers had missing seals. And
now the
pistons in both front calipers are damaged--that's why I say they're
"shot"
(my attempt at a technical description--the mechanic showed me the
disassembled right front caliper with the damaged pistons and missing
seals).
As for used parts, even mitsu is little or no help here--the 3000 is not
a
common vehicle in Europe. I've got an e-mail in to mitsu motors
europe, but
haven't received a reply yet.
Got a new problem with the front outer CV joint I have to fix first
now--will get back to the brakes issue next week.
Thanks for the advice on 1st gen vs. 2nd gen!
Pete
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 08:50:16 -0500
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill 25hr
Just as it with any good brake kit the good stuff is in every part. Here
are more details about StopTech brake kits.
StopTech AeroRotors:
StopTech Calipers:
FAQ:
That BMW kit that was pictured there uses only a 322x28 mm kit, which is
smaller than the 332x32 and 355x32 kits that should be used on a 3/S.
I have those already available for turbo cars. For the NA's I will have to
see if there is interest. I may just find a local NA and to try out the
parts that I have. It should not be a big problem to adapt them and make
new brackets if necessary.
Philip
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 08:53:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill 25hr
At 04:07 AM 12/12/2003, Bob Forrest wrote:
> That's what brake management is all about - don't use
them."
Forrest, you forgot to mentioned that your Team3S BBQ Crew race car was a
Miata. I really wished you raced one of your 3/S cars there.
Philip
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 08:45:44 -0600
Subject: RE: Team3S: Autobahn Brake Upgrade Continued
Do you mean they were missing dust covers or piston seals? The dust
covers are on the outside rim of the pistons and the seals themselves are
halfway down the pistons between the piston and the caliper cylinder wall.
I don't see how the caliper could retain fluid or any pressure without the
seals.
You have to explain how the pistons are damaged. They are pretty
tough objects, chrome plated and such. They can have some corrosion, which
can be cleaned off with scotch brite pads. If seven were stuck, how did
the mechanic extract them? If you use compressed air, they pop out (you
have to partly block each cylinder with the piston as it comes loose. If
he used pliers to extract the pistons, he might have damaged the end of the
piston that contacts the brake pad backer, but that doesn't really affect
operation of the piston. Only the surface of the piston that is in close
proximity to the caliper cylinder wall is important.
Chuck Willis
ORIG MESS
Yeah, a couple of people have pointed out that there are only 4 pistons
in
each caliper. My mistake--there were a total of 7 stuck pistons in
both
calipers, of course. Both front calipers had missing seals. And
now the
pistons in both front calipers are damaged--that's why I say they're
"shot"
(my attempt at a technical description--the mechanic showed me the
disassembled right front caliper with the damaged pistons and missing
seals).
As for used parts, even mitsu is little or no help here--the 3000 is not
a
common vehicle in Europe. I've got an e-mail in to mitsu motors
europe, but
haven't received a reply yet.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:17:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill 25hr
They allowed a car to be driven harder than on OEM brakes..but never
underestimate the power the DRIVER has to make brakes last.
OEM hardware with hawk pads on the miata finished with -many- races
left
to spare on them..and we kicked butt against a LOT of very well funded
and
much faster cars.
- ---
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can help...asking is free!
:)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:32:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill 25hr
I wish we had run a 3S too! :-) (And I *did* mention it in the
previous
post - mea culpa to anyone who didn't follow the thread...). My whole
point
was not to say that big brakes aren't better - they ARE better. And
I'm sure
StopTech is one of the better choices for our cars. I fully intend to
buy a
set of big brakes (if and when I ever have any money again). I may
buy them
from Geoff or I may buy them from you. Both are fine offerings.
But lack of
big brakes are *not* the reason that 6-8 pumps cause brake fade - you
*can*
(and should) modulate your brake usage depending on what you've got on
that
day (including having next to NO brakes). If Tigran was using R4-S
(or
similar street pad) instead of R4, he should simply have switched to a
race
pad or slowed down entering the corners. Bigger brakes are better,
but not a
necessity for any non-pro level of driving skill. The knowledge of
"how to
use what you've got" must come before the big brakes upgrade.
Once, at Thunderhill, on street tires (which are typically 5-8 seconds per
lap
slower than race tires) and on R4-S street pads, Geoff drove my VR-4.
I was
turning 2:19's and Geoff (who is a faster driver than I am, but who was
being
careful with my car) was turning 2:21's. We had to use brake
management
because R4-S is not enough pad for high-speed driving. Period.
As Geoff said
that day, "Well, you can either brake in Turn 1, or you can brake in Turn
14 -
you can't do both." But Geoff's *average* times in the Miata (with
race tires
and pads) at the 25-hour Enduro were about the same range as my VR-4 on
a
street setup - 2:19 to 2:21. On his fastest laps, once he got used to
the
Miata (which he had never driven before!), he was only a few seconds
faster
than that - 2:15's and 2:16's. The mark of a consistent driver.
The point
being that whether you're driving a Spec Miata with race brakes or a
500-hp
3kGT battleship with street brakes, you simply must drive using brake
management. If your brakes fade after two turns, you just have to
drive
without them for the next two turns, until they cool down. Then put
in better
pads. You don't necessarily need to get bigger brakes, even though
it's an
awesome luxury...
Two weeks ago at Sears Point, while I was "working out" ET to prep her for
the
25-hr Enduro, I was running the VR-4 (literally) in circles around the
Spec
Miata - and I was using snow tires(!), both in the dry and in the
rain. I
couldn't out-turn her, but I could brake under her Miata with its race
brakes
with no problem. With stock 1st gen VR-4 brakes. 4000lbs vs
2500lbs. And
you doubt that our stock brakes are great? The $200k StopTech-shod
BMW 325is
turned in a fastest time that was 5 sec faster than the Miata's (2:07) ,
but
that's the *same* time Geoff turns at Thunderhill in his stock Z-06, and
only
2 seconds faster than my best laps in the VR-4 with my stock brakes.
It's not
all about the brakes you use. It's all about the driver and brake
management.
And yes, Philip, with StopTechs I'd eat the Bullet BMW for breakfast.
;-)
I'm considering running a stripped (~2500lbs), race-prepped '94 Stealth
SOHC
NT (not ours) in the E3 class in the 25-hour Enduro next year, or
possibly
even in E2 class. Our non-race-prepped SOHC is faster than the Miata,
and it
can DO 25 hours, where I don't think a VR-4 could... We'll have to
talk on
the Team3S Racers list as to what brakes we run on whatever we enter.
:-) As
always, your expertise will be most welcome.
And thanks again Philip, and everyone else who contributed to our
Team3S
Enduro efforts this year!
Best,
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:37:05 -0500
Subject: Team3S: Bradi Rotors
Is anyone familiar with Bradi rotors? I'm thinking about picking up a
set of drilled and/or slotted. Price is pretty reasonable, but I want to
make sure I'm not going to get something that will warp in 5 minutes. I'm
not a racer, just use the car as a daily driver in the summer, so I am not
worried about withstanding race conditions. Thanks!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:34:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill 25hr
True, nobody wants to spend that kind of money. Maybe if the competition
is
big and important enough, and the owner is serious, then a lot of us
3/S
owners here and on 3Si.org, including 3/S shops, could pitch in. A
typical
compact race car is not much cheaper than a 3/S. Think of this...
that
clown who ran his Spyder in the Sports Compact Car competition last
year
could have asked and received some help before making a fool of himself
and
his car in front of the whole world.
What did they say about him - leg humper, not a fighter? LOL!
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:27:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Team3S: Bradi Rotors
Bradi=Brembo..same name, different holding company.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:44:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill 25hr
One person donates a rolling chassis, soeone builds a GOOD stock motor
(I
dont know of any OEM parts being unreliable for the most part) a very
minor turbo upgrade on stock housings (to work with the high rpms
it'll
always be at) a PROPER fuel system upgrade and electronics..nothing
half-assed, a proper boost controller, ICs, radiator, brakes...and
we'd
have to spend REAL CASH on cage and tires oh ya..need some donated
wheels.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:22:19 -0800
Subject: Re: 3S-Racers: RE: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill
25hr
No, you would not go faster, since such heavy braking upsets the car.
(It's
not so easy on the driver, either). Smoothness and carrying speed
through the
turns is the ideal case that you strive for. There's a "rhythm" to
driving
fast. If you have to brake more than once when entering a turn, you
did it
wrong. (Not counting a second stab or trail brake to set the
suspension...).
Similarly, when you go into that turn, you should turn your steering
wheel
*once*. If you have to adjust your chosen steering point, you chose
wrong.
Ever watch any of the videos that people have submitted to the list?
If their
hands move during any turn (other than a double apex), they need to
practice.
I'm not advocating coasting. Backing off settles the car, which
should flow
into a single braking of whatever length and then to a transition to
the
throttle. It's something that needs to be practiced until you get it
right
for each turn. If that means driving into the turn at 30, 40, 50, 40,
42, 43
mph until you find the right entry speed, so be it. That's what you
should be
practicing. The last time at SPR, I practiced ONE thing all Saturday
- Turn
2. And I practiced one thing on Sunday - Turn 10. How to brake
once and turn
once. I can fly through them now.
That StopTechs are better is without question. And irrelevant.
You don't
want to go faster and brake harder. You want to go faster and brake
smoothly,
turn smoothly, accelerate smoothly... And we're not brake experts,
we're
students, for the most part. Usually, making the car dive under heavy
braking
will slow you down, not make you go faster. On anything less than a
full
racing suspension, the car will bounce repeatedly after such heavy
braking,
until it "settles", and you won't be at maximum grip through the
turn. Which
means that you won't be at maximum speed, either.
Skip Barber has an excellent early chapter in "Going Faster" where he
explains
it better than anyone. Basically, if you enter a turn at 54 mph and
exit at
56 you won't get going nearly as fast on the straight as when you enter at
53
and exit at 57. If you're not fully spooled and under full power AT
the apex
of any turn, you're not realizing the potential of your car. And you
can't do
that if your car is still shuddering from heavy braking two seconds
before.
>From smoothness comes speed. Flying around the track is not
frenetic, it's
calm. It's not football, it's soccer. It's not
rock'n'roll, it's ballet.
There's an epiphany that happens out there when you start to "get it"...,
when
you find "the zone". It's more adrenaline and more fun than you can
imagine.
And it has nothing to do with more boost and bigger brakes.
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:04:51 -0000
Subject: RE: 3S-Racers: RE: Team3S: Brakes that lasted Thunderhill
25hr
(I posted my last note only to the Racers forum because I don't see this
as
a technical thread.)
Bob,
The rhythm I find quickest and
most comfortable is braking straight,
initiating the turn with weight on the front wheels, lifting smoothly
off
the brake to transfer weight rearward and easing on the throttle through
the
apex to maximize exit speed. I'm not braking repeatedly, and the
suspension
is not unsettled.
Given that as my goal, better
brakes (power and longevity) strike me as
very relevant. Say I need to start my turn and transition from brakes
to
power at location T and maximum entry speed E. I can meet that target
by
getting on the brakes 100 feet before T when traveling at 100mph. If
I'm
going any faster (101mph, 125mph, whatever), I need to make an adjustment:
I
can either brake earlier/longer or harder. Braking is not binary, so
it can
be modulated to avoid unsettling the car at point T while still
achieving
speed E.
Many inexperienced drivers do
brake too much (we're all probably guilty of
this to some degree) and carry too little momentum into corners; I
understand what is meant by "brake less." But the fact of the matter
is
that the best of drivers can take a corner only so fast, and the higher
the
speed reached on approach, the more braking is necessary to achieve
the
appropriate entry speed!
The OEM brakes are good, but at
some point they are not going to support
that additional responsibility, hence the importance of upgrading a
street/G.T.O. system to something more track-oriented. This seems
pretty
straightforward logic to me, so perhaps I'm missing something.
- - --
Jim Matthews - Yorkshire, England
*** Team3S, 3SI #0030, GTOUK #155
***
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:47:59 -0600
Subject: Team3S: Stupid ABS Question
I know I should know this, but ABS light is on. It's probably a
sensor,
but could be the main ABS unit, right? Anything else real
likely? I'm
trying to sell my car, and believe it or not, some people actually
want
the ABS to work! Any idea what the likely $$ are to fix it,
parts,
labor, etc.?
TIA,
Geis
'94 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:02:26 -0600
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stupid ABS Question
Check the circuit breakers. If the CB fails, the light comes on.
There are two of them, and the one in the lower left corner of the fuse
box
(as you lean over the fender) is the most likely culprit. You'll need a
#10
socket to take out the two bolts that hold in the circuit breaker.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:05:24 -0800
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stupid ABS Question
The sensors at the shock towers run about 200 each. The main ABS
computer
is very expensive. If I remember right it was over 1000.
Andy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:46:26 -0800
Subject: RE: Team3S: Bradi Rotors
> Is anyone familiar with Bradi rotors?
yes.
> I'm thinking about picking
> up a set of drilled and/or slotted.
have them myself.
> Price is pretty reasonable,
whats the price?
> but I want to make sure I'm not going to get something that will
> warp in 5 minutes.
any rotor will warp if you mistreat/abuse them....some in 5 or less,
or
more.
> I'm not a racer, just use the car as a daily
> driver in the summer, so I am not worried about withstanding
race
> conditions.
i would say that a vast majority are similar to you.....they want
performance but dont need an Overkill Brake Prescription (OBP), which
is
very common these days.
who makes/where are you getting the Bradi PimpnHo rotors from?
regards,
terry
"If it doesn't make you go fast, we don't sell it"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:52:46 -0700
Subject: Team3S: Lowering springs
Does anyone have any experience with or recommendations for the
following
lowering springs from 3sxperformance.com?
1) The Intrax Lowering springs - supposedly gived 1.5" to 1.75" of
lowering
2) The Eibach Pro Kit Lowering springs - 1" of lowering and they are
the
"softest"
3) Tein S-Tech Lowering springs - 1.5" front, 1.3" rear.
Is there any problem with adjusting the camber back so that the top of
the
wheel does not rub the strut?
The car is used for autocross mostly, with occasional around town
trips. I
don't need new struts and I am putting on stiffer sway bars and stut
tower
braces. This is the first step - Saner rear sway bar and the
lowering
springs. Then a Saner front sway bar and front and rear tower
braces. I'm
trying to correct an overstear problem. I've already tried to correct
the
nut behind the wheel....
The car is a '94 Stealth TT with 26000 miles on it.
Thanks.
- --There is no traffic jam on the "extra mile".
Steve Simonds
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:06:38 +1100
Subject: Team3S: ECU problem
need help,
just burn't the ECU in my GTO.
wondering where I can get one for cheap..
Also is worth getting aftermarket, if so which one?
does any one have one they're selling..
thanks,
Joel from the land down under.
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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #321
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