Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, November 25 2003 Volume
02 : Number 309
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:47:50 -0500
From: Darren Schilberg <
dschilberg@spamcop.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Oil testing
Philip,
I'm not sure what the pic of that oil pump is for or how it
relates here. I know
that removing the drain plug and taking a sample
is a free way of gathering an oil
sample and has not marketing with it.
Let's stay on topic here.
I am not going to list the reports
online for everyone since I haven't asked the
other few folks if they want
their information divulged so it will stay private with me
and with those
whom want to learn more information about it. The reports are
quite
easy to follow and on the Oil Analyzers, Inc. page I think they give a
sample report or
what it reports. I know what is in the reports so I
don't need to go to their page
anymore so I may be mistaken.
As I emailed you, I like the [geeky] Engineering-like report and actual
measured
values of things and it lets me forecast things (like statistical
charts).
- --Flash!
Independent Amsoil dealer but that has no bearing with
analyzing oil
> Maybe you could post your reports online for all of us to see. I am
not
> sure I know how to read them correctly and what to look for, so
maybe
> someone else will notice something peculiar.
>
> LOL!
The logo on this pump is such a dead giveaway!
>
http://www.oaitesting.com/oil_analysis_pump_300px.jpg>
>
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:51:49 -0600
From: "Dan Hyde" <
danielhyde@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: NORCO Comes through.
<Snip>
>By the bye, my mechanics at Denny's Mufflers (they race
cars, too) were
>dismayed at the rear axle and bearing arrangement, and
said the system was
>never designed to handle race car cornering forces.
That's why I wore out a
>rear housing so fast, they said. Any of you
racers out there going through
>rear bearings faster than usual?
I am not a racer and don't know if I have "rear housing" wear or
not...
However, your writings make me inquire now about the odd clunking
sound I
hear from the rear end area during hard left cornering. Something has
to be
ailing somewhere in those wayward parts.
The sound is a "heavy" and
somewhat slow repeating
clunk-clunk-clunk-clunk-clunk (at about the speed
that one can say it) until
side loading has been relieved. I can't reproduce
the symptom at all doing a
hard right. To describe "hard left", I refer
to the kind of side loading
one would experience doing a skid pad turn.
I have looked at exploded views of rear-end/differential/axle/etc but
can't
pinpoint specifically what loading on what parts might be causing
this. Any
thoughts?
Thanks
Dan
97 VR4 ~92K miles
(w/ Saner sways and TEC strut
bars)
------------------------------
> your writings make me inquire now about the odd clunking sound
I
>hear from the rear end area during hard left cornering. Something has
to be
>ailing somewhere in those wayward parts.
>The sound is a
"heavy" and somewhat slow repeating
>clunk-clunk-clunk-clunk-clunk (at
about the speed that one can say it) until
>side loading has been
relieved. I can't reproduce the symptom at all doing a
>hard right.
To describe "hard left", I refer to the kind of side loading
>one would
experience doing a skid pad turn.
Sure sounds like a left rear wheel bearing. The easiest way to tell is
to
jack the car off the ground and lift up on the rear wheels one at a
time.
If the wheel moves up and down and goes click-click, there's your
problem.
Since you already installed new rear bearings, that probably means
the
housing is shot. If you think that's the problem, better take it to
a
mechanic you trust, and see what they say. I'd hate for you to order
a
$200+ axle housing just on my say-so.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:42:07 -0500
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Anyone know of in-expensive Data Acquisition hardware
and software, strain gages, thermocouples, pressure transducers?
At 09:18 PM 11/24/2003, John Monnin wrote:
>I found some equipment
for National Instruments that would be perfect
>for only a few thousand
dollars but if I had that much money I would
>spend it on the car, so I
still wouldn't buy it. I was hoping to spend
>only a few hundred
dollars but I have no idea if this is possible or
>not.
You can get those expensive NI cards used on Ebay for $200-300. Just need
to look around and wait.
>I looked at lab jack that Philip was using to data log his car
but it
>looks like it might be a little slow when using multiple
inputs.
Temperature logging *is* slow, so LabJack might be perfect for that
purpose.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 05:34:20 -0800
From: "Guy, Michael (CS)" <
michael.guy@ngc.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Fuses
Somewhere in the past couple days, I have been having a few
electrical
problems in my car. Haven't had a whole lot of time to fix it, but
then
today when I took a look, I found a couple fried fuses.
Don't know if there is a difference between you VR4/TT guys and us NA
guys,
but somebody should be able to help. Here is the story. The other day,
I
removed my LCD screen wiring harness from the wiring harness on
my
Aftermarket CD player. All that was attached was a FM Modulator for
the
Video in/out's and the LCD screen Both using the radio's Ignition hot.
Once
that was removed my Radio stopped working along with all of my over
head
interior lights, the lights on the doors and the retarded door
buzzer.
Last night on my way home my car decided to switch to complete
'Stealth'
mode. My dash lights just went out, along with all my parking
lights, AF
foglights and this caused my headlights to stay in the up
position(looking
quite rediculous.
Erik P. told me to check out the fuses when I sent him an E-mail
yesterday,
but didn't have a chance to until this morning. But along with all
this is
another question. I bought a set of Navigator fog lights(HID
look-a-likes)
and on a remote. Burned out the remote so I hard wired it into
my parking
lights. Could this also be causing the problem?
Going from right to left on the fuse box, the second fuse in on the top
row,
and the first fuse on the bottom row. What are they? However owned the
car
last somehow lost the fuse panel covering and I have no idea what they
are.
Both are 10 amp fuses.
Can somebody please help me.
TIA,
Mike Guy
92 Stealth SOHC -- No working lights or radio.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:04:33 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Fuses
Re: the radio, in all likelihood, your + wire touched a ground and fried
the fuse. Re: the lights, if you simply tapped into the hot wire for the
parking lights, you overloaded the circuit and fried the fuse. You can't
hardwire all those lights together--they draw too much current. You'll
need to run a relay with a separate +12 line.
------------------------------
how would he know they are cracking on the inside? did he remove one,
or see pieces of rubber in the coolant?
Look at them
yourself. squeeze them. if they are brittle then replace them.
This is cheap and easy to do.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
I have only replaced the rear bearings on my '93 and that is three years
after it was retired from the track at 100K plus miles. Also my son
replaced his rear bearings after 2 track years and 80K miles. The '94 rear
bearings are okay with three years of track and about 80K
miles.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:04:10 -0800
From: "Guy, Michael (CS)" <
michael.guy@ngc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Fuses
Boss just ran me to Advanced and I picked up a fuse accessory kit, with
a
fuse checker/puller and 40 fuses. Replaced the one on the bottom and now
I
have interior lights and a radio. All the rest of the fuses seem to be
good,
but I still have no dash or parking lights(headlights do go up and down
now
though).
Any ideas on this one. I am pretty postive I didn't get a chance to
check
all the fuses in that fuse panel(It's too cold out there for my
skinny
tail).
Thanks,
Mike Guy
92 Stealth SOHC
------------------------------
After spending last week restoring my son's '93 VR4 to stock condition, I
found that I need to apologize to Geoff Mohler. Geoff was working on a
two-piece rotor solution for the Stillen Brembo upgrade, and I gave him some
incorrect information, based on my poor memory of installing the kit. My
son and I were surprised when we found that there was indeed a spacer between
the hub assembly and the rotor hat, about an inch wide and about 1/4" thick,
fitted over the stock lugs.
I didn't notice it until I tried to put
the stock rotor and caliper back on.
Geoff, if you are still
interested in working on this, I will have my son ship you an old
rotor.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Help! My son may be going over to the dark side of the force!
After long and unsucessful searches for '99VR4's he is now looking seriouosly at
a Lotus Esprit!
Please help me save my son from the Lotus
community!
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:10:55 -0500
From:
bryan.goldman@ps.ge.comSubject:
RE: Team3S: Anyone know of in-expensive Data Acquisition hardwa re
and software, strain gages, thermocouples, pressure transducers?
Fluke makes a exellent meter that we use at the power plant I work at.
I
have know idea what it cost but it is very portable.
Bryan 92 sohc stealth
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:30:10 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Anyone know of in-expensive Data Acquisition hardware
and software, strain gages, thermocouples, pressure transducers?
The price of those systems can be explained in several terms. Most is
speed,
quality and reliability and handling. Smaller data aquisition systems
do
always have a down side as they are msotly not made for our purpose.
If you look around with google you'll find some cheap analog-digital
stuff
for the USB port that can easily be visualised on the PC. But it is
very
important to know how much channels (gauges or probes) and how many
samples
per second in total should be recorded. Please also keep in mind that
some
thermocouples are fast and some are slow. If you buy a cheap one, it is
able
to recognize a change of 1°C per second. So if you are sample it 10
times a
second you will get 10 same readings although the temp has already
changed.
Same belongs to all other probes although pressure related ones are
usually
very quick.
Furthermore, logging the knock sensor would be the most important data
to
log. But this is not easy at all as you need an active filter controlled
by
the ignition signal to measure the real knock output.
In the end, it doesn't make much sense to log many temps and
pressures.Well,
it makes sense for a project car where you gonna develop new
intercoolers,
pipings and other systems as you want to measure pressure and
temp loss
within the different sections. Needless to say that none of all
those great
shops who create FMIC systems never did something like that ...
go figure !
I made such a system with a small microcontroller board and an LCD screen
I
got from germany. It uses 8 channels and works ok. But I learned that it
is
too slow and showing four data at once is too much for the human
brain
during driving. This is why I more and more come back to real gauges
where
the brain can interpret in what zone the needle stands without reading
too
much figures. Thsi is also the cause why all those digital instruments
in
cars went away, it was just too much information. For logging, sure, it is
a
good idea but write down what information you want to log and list them on
a
scale of importance from 1 to 5 (most important). You'll see that the
system
doesn't need much channels.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:07:29 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
apologies to Geoff Mohler - Brembo upgrade
My gripe with the Stillen from some time ago --- it eliminates the
hub-centric nature
of the hub. Instead of being centered by the ring at the
center of the hub the wheels are centered by the lug nuts. The nuts
are
tapered so it's not a big issue
but it seems like a high price system
like that would be a little more comprehensive.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
I'm not so sure that it's not still hub-centric: the insert is a very
tight fit to the stock hub and the rotor hat is a very tight fit to the OD of
the spacer. Like I said, I didn't even notice it initially - I thought the
spacer was integral to the hub! Duh!
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:24:49 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
NORCO Comes through.
My first choice would be the CV joint in the rear axle --- the frequency,
would of course,
be dependant on vehicle speed. When bad, they like to make
noise when under load.
I just replaced the front axles on my 93 --- mechanically they seemed OK
but the boot
split on one of them and the dealer wanted $60 per boot [ times
4 = too much ] plus a
serious amount of work for me to change them. Not only
do I have to pull them but I have
to disassemble and repair them also.
Rebuilt axles were $60 each for the front.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:41:48 -0500
From: "Gene Calarco" <
gac@clifton.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: NORCO Comes through.
What kind of noise are we talking about? Mine just started making
a
stretching type of noise when I accelerate with the front wheels turned
from
dead stop, then it goes away when the car is straight and in
motion.
Eugene
92'DOHC NT
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:40:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: apologies to Geoff Mohler - Brembo upgrade
Sure..no probs.
No apologies needed..I wasnt aware there was a problem. ;)
Just Email me offline, and we can rebuild it..we have the tecnology..
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Almost finnished with my engine swap on my 91 VR-4 and i noticed that
the
driver side rubber accordian looking boot on my steering is split in half
(
probably happened when i was pulling the old motor. I checked caps
and it
shows it in the picture but does not have a part number... can i buy
this at
a local auto parts place or is it a specific size/type? any help
would be
great...
- -ryan phillips
san diego - 91 VR-4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:04:20 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
split rubber boot
I just replaced those also, one was split --- dealer does have them.
Be
sure to buy the steel bands also, the outside has a clip which should
be
reuseable but the band on the inside will probably be destroyed.
CAPS --- go to page two of the steering gear pages !!!!
I paid about $12 for each boot and $5 for the bands --- I get a
son-in-law
discount at the dealer.
It was a bit af a pain to get the boot over the end of the rack --- it has
to be
forced over the end and the space is limited. Turn the wheel all the
way to the
right to do the right hand one and to the left for the
other.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:53:05 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: NORCO Comes through.
Hi Dan,
Check for
interference between the rear anti-sway bar and the outer axle flange bolt heads
on the rear. I noticed that you have the Saner sway bars, and I assume
that means you have upgraded the rear one. I was unable to use the
full-width spacers on the end links' upper connection due to interference in
that area on the right side. We ended up cutting the spacers in half to
get some extra clearance.
During this autocross season, I got a few "clunks" out of what sounded like the
right rear end. They happened very infrequently and I was usually in the
"heat of battle" when they occurred, so I haven't quite isolated it. It
seems only to happen when transitioning very quickly from a hard left to a hard
right, when the right rear gets unloaded the most. When inspecting things
after each event, I noticed a tiny mark on the sway bar that looks like it could
have been made by one of the axle flange bolt heads. However, I could see
no noticeable wear on the bolt heads, and the mark on the sway bar is SO small
that it very well could have been from when we were muscling things around
during the installation. Next season, I'll put some colored grease or
something on the bar and see if any shows up on the axle flange
bolts.
As for a description of the
"clunk," in my case, it sounds like a spring that's not quite solidly in its
perch, and under quick loading of that corner, settles by moving 1/4" or so to
its final resting place. There's a heavy clunk, followed by some
low-frequency vibration from the spring. In fact, that's what I thought it
was at first, but then I realized it was coming from the right rear, and only
when the right rear corner was being UNloaded. I guess, since I have the
stock springs that are compressed at full suspension travel, the RR spring could
be moving in it perch and making such a noise when getting unloaded violently,
but that just doesn't seem right to me.
Please let me/us know what you find if you check out the possible sway bar
and axle flange bolt interference. I'm curious to see if others have
issues with clearance there.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:53:21 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Stock chromies - repair or replace?
Simple wheel repair (without rechroming) is $109 at Wheels America
(
www.fixrim.com). That includes
straightening and repainting. I guess you'll
have to contact them and
ask whether they brush off the chrome first or just
smooth it out and paint
over it... The refinished wheels look like new
ones..., unless you have
a lot of curb damage.
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:55:29 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: ECU Engine Ignition Output
Has anyone measured or viewed on an oscilloscope the ECU's engine ignition
output? That would be either the output for the factory tachometer (pin
101 on 1G cars, pin 58 on '94-'95 cars and 51 on '96+ cars) or any of the power
transistor control signals (pins 10, 11, and 23 on all years). The manual
shows the circuit diagram in section 13 (pages 264-265 on the CD version of the
manual) and all look to be 0-5V signals with a pretty short pulse-width.
The terminal listing (p13-283-284) lists all those signals as having a DC value
of 0.3-3V. That would be consistent with a 0-5V signal with a variable
frequency and short pulse-width.
Jeff's ignition section on Stealth316 lists the PTU control signals as 3V
on and 0V off signals. Does anyone know for sure if that is correct?
Or are they 5V on signals?
I'm trying to debug a problem where a RPM-sensing circuit that works on
other cars doesn't work on my '95 VR-4. I know the ECU signal is good
because I have 2 other aftermarket devices that successfully read it. At
this point, I believe the problem is either with the amplitude of the ECU signal
being too small (if it is indeed a 3V signal) or the pulse-width violating the
setup or hold times for the circuit. I suspect the latter since I am
thinking that the ECU output is a 5V signal. However, before I eliminate
amplitude as a source of the problem, I wanted to check with you guys to see if
anyone has scoped the signal. Jeff? Philip? Anybody
else?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:07:25 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Team3S: Schmatic diagram for ECU - GForce ?
Since we are looking for a schematic diagram of the ECU for years
I
remebered that G-Force Engineering offers the ECU upgrade with
a
daughterboard mounted. Either they simply replace the CPU and know
the
conenctions to it (as can be found in the Motorola or Hitachi
reference
books) or they indeed have a schematic diagram of the ECU's in our
cars.
Does anyone have contact to G-Force or any other good source that is
worth
to ask for the schematic diagram ?
I'm now partnering with a chip-tuner here in Europe and try his
ressources
for more information. He explained me that the newer Mitsubishis
are indeed
flash-programmable, i.e. programming can be done over the
diagnostic port.
It is the same like it can be done with the power
programmers from Hypertech
in the LT1 Camaros/Corvettes. If it is true, then
some of the last 3000GT
ECUs also came with this feature that only difference
is another CPU with
internal flash memory. This would made them exchangeable
with the 93+ ECU at
least but I'd say at some high cost.
So if anybody has more information or sources, let me know.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:18:33 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: ECU Engine Ignition Output
No, I haven't measured the output, but I know that the signal should not
be
a problem at all. It simply acts an activation - trigger - signal
that
controls the ignition transistors.
I believe that your rpm-sensing circuit together with the other devices
cuts
down the voltage and therefore causes too much load so the signal is
falling
down. I have seen such devices already that have a too small
input
resistance. Try to get another RPM source or disconnect the others to
see if
you simpyl have too much at the same source.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:23:55 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: ECU Engine Ignition Output
I thought about that, but I had ruled it out... With 4 devices
connected to the ECU tach output (OEM tach + 3 aftermarket devices, including
the one I'm debugging), the OEM tach still works, as do the two existing
aftermarket devices I already have. It's only the new device that doesn't
work. The others are easy enough to disconnect, so I suppose I can try
disconnecting the other aftermarket devices, just to see if I'm getting some
signals loss. Thanks for the suggestion, Roger.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:41:57 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Schmatic diagram for ECU - GForce ?
>> So if anybody has more information or sources, let me know.
The DSM-ECU group is just about ready to expose the working of the DSM ECU.
Dec 8 is the scheduled "reveal" date for the programming.
Jeff Oberholtzer is the prime mover of the assembly decoding. But there are
others. The early DSM ECUs are fundamentally different than ours in that they
can be reprogrammed. However, I wonder if the DSM knowledge can't be used in the
programming of daughter boards for our CPUs?
Below is an "interesting fairy tail" Jeff O. recently posted regarding Todd
Day (Mr. TMO).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:20:23 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: ECU Engine Ignition Output
The ECU supplies voltage/current to the base of each transistor in the PTU
in order to complete the circuit through the coil's primary and to control the
current in the coils primary. The 3V value I list in the figures on my web page
below is nominal.
What really happens is that the voltage starts low and then builds. The DSO
(digital storage oscilloscope) pattern below is one that Tom Hodel captured and
sent to me.
Tom is not sure everything was connected correctly because the ECU starts
its input at ~2V at zero current. Nevertheless, the important point is that
voltage starts low and builds.
Below is another pattern Tom sent me.
It shows the voltage and current at idle on the coil's primary input.
Another patterns shows that the high voltage spike at break is ~400V, so don't
worry too much about the seemingly low voltage before break. However, on my
"truth about our ignition coils" thread on 3si, a member measured the voltage on
the coil's positive side as between 13 and 14 volts. So I am not sure what Tom
or the 3si member were using as a reference for the ground side of the
measurement.
I just received my Pico computer-based DSO yesterday. I should have
patterns for us from my car within a week or so.
As far as the tach signal from the PTU is concerned. Look at page 14-10 in
the STIM.
The circuit inside the PTU is looking for the low-high switch and then
conditions a square wave output to the ECU and tachometer. For the receiving
circuit of that square-wave signal, the voltage (assuming it is adequate) may be
less important than the low-high transitions.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:03:14 -0700
From: "Bobby Vaughn" <
bobvaughn@bresnan.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Team3S Power Steering Leak
This will be just a brief introduction to myself and my car then I must
get
right to business. My name is Bobby, I live in Colorado and my car
is a
white 1992 3000GT VR4. It has only a few mods like manual boost
controller,
new Y-pipe, downpipe, and race pipe (sshhh...don't tell). I
have had the
pre-cats gutted and a few interior things to further comfort the
ride. Now
for my problem. I have a power steering leak from what
looks like the
return hose on the reservior. Is there an easy way to
get to this hose to
replace it? I have tried several different angles
and cannot get to it!
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thank You,
Bobby
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#309
***************************************
