Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, November 19 2003 Volume 02 : Number
303
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:48:16 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
Since the beginning of this year Mitsu Europe recommends to use only
0W-30
in all GDI engines. After some testings they now recommend the same
0W30
longlife for the older cars including 3000GT too. High temp tests have
shown
that this oil called "Prestige Star Synth Longlife" results in a
much
cleaner engine and no blocked oil lines from the turbos (known problem
in
turbo-diesels).
At the 60k service Mitsubishi Switzerland used this oil in my car too
and
told me that even on the twinturbo the next change is only necessary
after
9000 miles (15'000km). This goes along with many other manufacturers
that do
recommend to change the oil in the cars every 9000 - 12000 miles with
a
0W-30 or 5W-40 max. No need to waste money !
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:19:50 -0500
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
They just want you to wear out your old motor (and car) so that you have to
buy a new one.
I owned a few old and new cars and I can swear that I feel when a car could
use an oil change. It is often when the idle becomes rougher and sometimes
the car becomes low on power. Surprisingly, this often corresponds to the
original OEM recommendations for oil change intervals, 3000 mi in the US on
older generation cars that I owned and 5000 mi for a severe service on a
newer VTEC Honda motor that is my daily driver. Oil is relatively cheap
here in the US and I do not mind changing it more often. It also makes me
feel better when I pamper my car and treat it to an oil change after it
took a beating at the track or after some spirited driving around town.
Makes me feel less guilty that I always drive it this way.
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:23:31 -0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
I will still be changing mine every 3000 in my 3000GT, and every 1500
in
my Talon (severe race duty)... Amsoil has claimed for years what
15k
mile oil change intervals??? Even though the oil may not be
breaking
down over that time period, I still feel it best to change it more
often
than not...
- -Cody
P.S. Set a personal best in the Talon - 11.77 at 116 mph
on street
tires, time to add a little more boost and nitrous, shooting for
tens
(gonna build the motor in the off season though, look for a 10
second
full weight car next February)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:41:54 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
1 Liter 0W30 oil costs $17 here. The last time I changed the oil after
about
5000mls it looked like new ... in the 94 Z28 Camaro, it was dark,
black. I'd
say it really depends on the engine
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:48:14 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
Damn --- If I were you I'd try making friends with someone in OPEC or
just
buy my own oil well.
It's nice to know you Europeans can cheer us Americans up when we start
bitching about fuel prices.
I put my used Mobil 1 in my work truck, it a POS that leaks as much as it
burns
and probably doesn't see over 3 thousand rpm.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:07:54 -0500
From: Patrick Smyth <
smythpal@sympatico.ca>
Subject:
Team3S: Still Shudders on Acceleration
Hi folks,
4 responses (thanks again!!) suggested CV joints. All 8 we're checked and
are fine. One said check engine mounts, and one mentioned spark
blow-out -
those will be inspected today. All fluids were replaced, no
pieces of metal
found.
Any other advise well appreciated!!
The rear diff has twice the play than normal. Could this be the
problem?
Pat
------------------------------
I vote for motor mounts. About $200 at mitsupartsdirect.
Been there,
done that. Mine were shot at 80K miles, but were not causing
any problems
other than allowing the engine to move around way too much. If
you still have
stock motor mounts at 142k miles, they definitely need to be
replaced. Three
go in easily enough, but that last one --the rear mount --
is a real
sumbitch. Might be worth paying somebody with a lift to do that
one for you.
No, you do not have to take off the rear turbo--it just looks
like you do.
You do, however, need highly articulated sockets, wrenches,
and hands that
can reach around corners.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:29:26 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
Europe has a wide temperature range, and severe cold in winter months,
which
is not the case in all parts of the world. I don't think that
they would make
such a recommendation for Abu Dhabi, Rio, or even in many
parts of California.
Even the cool-ish weather here in the Bay Area of
Northern California, where
it rarely gets below 32 degrees F (zero degrees,
C.), would never warrant the
use of a 0W-xx oil blend, IMO. My guess is
that in those warmer areas, the
"common wisdom" would indicate that the ideal
oil is still 10W-30, and for the
warmest areas of the world, 10W-40.
That said..., I can see myself putting in
a change of 0W-30 this winter, just
to clean out the turbo oil lines. And
since I drive my car hard (and
race it), I'll still change close to the
traditional 3000-mile interval, or
sooner. I decide my oil change interval
based on what the oil *looks*
like, rather than on a formal schedule... I'm
sure that a 9000-mile
interval would be just fine with a long-life oil, but
I'll continue to be
"foolish" and maintain my much-shorter oil change interval
with good old
Mobil-1, 10W-30.
- ---Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:52:02 -0800
From: "Guy, Michael (CS)" <
michael.guy@ngc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Still Shudders on Acceleration
Mounts for a SOHC engine are $252.51 with the Team3s Discount. Don't know
if
they are the same or not, but thats what Mitsuparts Direct quoted me
for
mounts.
Mike Guy
92 Stealth SOHC -- Bad motor mounts. Fix this weekend.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:56:56 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
Several professional mechanics I know (high $$ ones at that) go 6000
if
using synth oil but change the filters out at 3000.
They DONT
race.
Obviously this DOES add some new oil at that point.
My oil quality varies with the quality of fuel I can find. cheap gas
dirties
my oil MUCH quicker.
More reason to use the good stuff.
Pete Rivenburg
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:07:26 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
Audi recommends that I change REGULAR DYNO oil in my A4 1.8T at 10,000
miles! Needless to say, I'd never do that. I change out my Mobil 1
every 3-4K.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:19:38 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
Sounds like a sales pitch to me. snicker.
I have begain to wonder just
how much the dealers are making on repairs
compared to new sales.
Pete Rivenburg
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:50:46 -0800 (PST)
From:
vr4glenn@newsguy.comSubject: RE:
Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
The manufacturer recommends the oil change interval. The dealership,
which is
not owned by the manufacturer, makes the profit on service.
IMO, a dealership
would show a larger profit by performing 3k mile oil
changes than by doing
engine swaps. Why? Most engines will last the
duration of the original owner
regardless of oil change interval. I'd
speculate that 2nd and 3rd owners are
far less likely to use the dealership
for service. So when that engine blows,
it's probably not headed to the
dealership for replacement.
Just my $.02,
Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:53:37 -0600
From: "William J. Crabtree" <
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: SS Braided turbo oil lines from 3sx
OK GUYS,
It's re-assembly time (again)
and I'm strongly considering getting the
stainless steel braided oil feed and
return lines for the turbos that 3SX
sells. Only thing that's really
stopping me is the price. $330 seems
pretty steep for what you
get. Does anybody have these and are they worth
it? Do they
potentially increase oil flow to the turbo? Is anybody out
there AGAINST this
idea and why? Is there an alternate outlet besides
"Earl's" and
"Aeroquip"? (Those two sources seem very confusing to deal
with, and
don't look to have exactly what you need to build them yourself)
Related links:
Thanks in advance,
- -Jeff C.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:49:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
Matches about what GM is doing here too. I can go about 6000 miles
before
my car tells me I have 25% oil life remaining, even as it adjusts
for
track use.
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:53:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
Hey..if they TELL you 10,000 miles, and it breaks from bad oil..its
not
YOUR repair to worry about.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:54:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: SS Braided turbo oil lines from 3sx
Gott photo of them to see?
Sounds great.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:22:37 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
I'm sure there's the proverbial fine print, like they're not liable for any
damages incurred by using non-OEM parts and oil!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:24:50 -0800
From: Mike Gerhard <
gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: Team3S:
60K Tune Parts
I've ordered a JSPEC engine to fix my spun rod bearing. I'm wanting to
change the timing belt, water pump, oil pump, spark plugs, and spark plug
wires. I'm probably going to put in the polyurethane motor mounts from 3SX
and a Saner front sway bar upgrade.
I'm wondering if there are any other parts one would suggest I replace. My
intent is to remain pretty much stock on the basic motor.
As I start to price out these parts, I'm wondering if I can get some
suggestions as to good places with Team3S discounts. I intend to get a
quote from MitsuPartsDirect (Rockville Mitsubishi) and I've been told to
connect with Mitsuguy (I think that's the name) in Washington. I've also
noticed that 3SX has Mitsubishi parts as well. Here is what I have from
their web site so far
Mitsubishi 60K service bundle $340
This DOHC bundle includes the water
pump and gaskets, timing belt, timing
belt hydraulic tensioner, timing
tensioner pulley, and the tensioner pulley
tool used to install the timing
belt.
Mitsubishi Oil Pump $175
Mitsubishi Water Pump $105 (included in the bundle so the bundle without
the pump is $235)
I'm curious as to any thoughts on these prices.
Thanks.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Mike
Gerhard 1991
Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 Pearl White
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:30:46 -0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
What are they basing the 25% on? Is there a photo sensor to
detect
'shine thru' properties?
Most cars only have the Set and Notify based on mileage, but it
sounds
like
you are talking about something different here.
Kurt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:39:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Floyd <
jim_floyd7@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: SS Braided turbo oil lines from 3sx
I have them and they work fine.
Are they worth it ? I'm into this car
for the long haul and I'm replacing every rubber line that could fail that I
can.
Jim Floyd
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:38:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
historical heat/load/MPG probly.
use & abuse factors.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:36:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
If you force someone to use THIER oil, they have to provide it for free
in
the USA if they attach a warranty statement reflecting that you can
only
buy oil from mitsubishi.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:38:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: SS Braided turbo oil lines from 3sx
The return lines are rubber?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:40:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: SS Braided turbo oil lines from 3sx
..and for what its worth, what plugs up the OEM lines would still plug
up
SS lines.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:51:39 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
I guess that's why I got free oil changes for the life of my
warranty. ;-)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:53:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Floyd <
jim_floyd7@earthlink.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: SS Braided turbo oil lines from 3sx
Yes, rubber lines replaced with metal ones - metal lasts longer.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:54:14 -0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Long life oil > change every 9000 mls
Yes, as long as the API, or equivalent, specs are met, they
cannot
object.
But I do agree the dealers are NEVER going to tell you to change it
less
often. Getting you in there allows them to suggest all manner of
other
repairs.
Kurt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:55:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Floyd <
jim_floyd7@earthlink.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: SS Braided turbo oil lines from 3sx
Yes, but they won't crack, split, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:58:52 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Replacing Turbo Oil Lines (Was: SS Braided turbo oil lines from
3sx)
While we're on this topic, is it possible to replace the turbo lines
without removing the engine?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:29:13 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: SS Braided turbo oil lines from 3sx
It is hard to imagine the 3SX lines substantially improving oil flow to and
from the turbos. They do look nice, though. If your factory supply and return
lines are in good shape, clean them out with brushes and solvent and reuse. From
what I remember the lines are metal. However, there might be short sections of
hose (if so, then not really a big deal). My "oilpan" web page below shows the
bottom of a return line.
If you do want to build your own lines, look on my web page below for a
list of 15 online suppliers of Earl's, Aeroquip, and/or Russell fittings, hoses,
and adapters. ANPlumbing is not the lowest-price supplier.
At the bottom of the above web page I also list some online catalogs for
these parts.
The 3SX adapters look like they are machined, though, and not off-the-shelf
parts. In my opinion these are dress up or convenience parts and not performance
parts.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:43:57 +0000
From:
mjannusch@comcast.netSubject: Re:
Team3S: Replacing Turbo Oil Lines (Was: SS Braided turbo oil lines from
3sx)
> While we're on this topic, is it possible to replace the
> turbo
lines without removing the engine?
Yes, but it is somewhat involved and not very fun. Return lines are
relatively easy, front feed line is run behind the A/C compressor's bracket so a
bunch of stuff has to come off to remove the feed line.
Feed lines really shouldn't have a problem, return lines may have some
coking inside - if they do then your turbos probably aren't in real great shape
either. My returns had no deposits on them after 55,000 miles with Mobil1
synthetic.
As for the braided lines, I see them as a cosmetic upgrade only - unless
you figure you'll be swapping turbos a lot or something crazy like that.
Certainly not worth the money and effort in my opinion for a non dragstrip-only
car.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:05:40 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Replacing Turbo Oil Lines (Was: SS Braided turbo oil lines from 3sx)
I agree to them being primarly cosmetic --- I'm doing a set of my own using
a combination
if AN fittings and pieces of the origional lines. In my case
the use of 368 turbos requires
bending the origional lines or making my
own.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:04:13 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Help, backfire intermittant spark.
Hi Shawn,
Since you have a
'92 VR-4, have you checked the capacitors in your ECU? That's pretty easy
to check, and as common as it is for those to fail, I'd check it if you haven't
already. Pull your ECU and open the case - if it smells like rotting stuff
(fish, Chinese food, etc.) that's likely your problem. Also, visually
inspect the traces near the electrolytic capacitors to see if any of them are
damaged.
There are other
things to check, too, but I'd look at the ECU first.
- --Erik
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:43:01 -0000
From: "Leo J. Fabilli" <
fabilli@bignet.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Transfer Case Recall
Hey Guys,
I could use some advice on how to handle this transfer case recall. I
am
under the impression that the potential failure is only a result of
low
lubricant level. However, in reading the threads in the archives, it
seems
like the tranny/transfer cases likes to break regardless of the lube
leaking
out.
My dilemma is this. The car has been mine for all of it's years
(nearly
eleven). It has never left fluid of any type on the garage floor. At
58,000
miles, it has no indication of problem of any type. I'm concerned
about
tearing the car up unnecessarily. They want to put a rebuilt unit in
and I'm
not getting a clear response as to how this recall is warranted. I
would be
mad as hell if my car was tore up and I began to have issues when
I
hadn't been experiencing any in the first place.
Any feedback on your experiences would be valuable to me.
Thanks,
Leo
93 Stealth TT
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:56:11 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Help, backfire intermittant spark.
Thanks to everyone that has replied.
I've resolved the problem, I
purchased new spark plug wires from Autozone,
these turned out to be BAD!!!
In fact two of the boots that fit over the
plugs were actually too long to
make contact between the connector and the
spark plug. That will be my last
trip to autozone.
------------------------------
Leo:
Don't go. The recall is forever, so if your transfer case isn't
leaking,
don't go down there. If you do, and they check it out, discover it
is not
leaking, and write you off, you can never go back.
So wait until it leaks. Then go down and get a new one.
By the bye, are you sure that your TC actually has fluid in it? Might
be
worthwhile checking it. If it's empty, it won't leak.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:27:33 -0500
From: David Friedlander <
forzion@maine.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: 3000GT poly bushings
Anyone ever hear of SuperPro? They're an Australian polyurethane
bushing
maker with UK distribution. Not sure if they're also distributed in
the
US but they make the following items for the 3000GT (for Stealth,
the
catalog says "See 3000GT"):
MITSUBISHI Z15, Z16 10/92 - 12/96
3000 GT / GTO
F Control
Arm Lower - Inner Bush SPF823-4K 1 4B,2T
F Control Arm Upper - Inner Bush
SPF823-4K 1 4B,2T
F Strut Bar To Chassis Mount SPF1299K# 1 Use OE mounting
pin. "Caster
adjustable" 2B,2T,2S
F Sway Bar Link Bush Kit SPF2092BK 1
8B
F Sway Bar Mount To Chassis Bush SPF1257-_ _K 1 Measure bar diameter
20,
21, 23, 24mm available 2B
R Control Arm Lower - Outer Bush SPF1342K# 1
4B,2T,2S
R Control Arm Upper - Outer Bush SPF1921K 1 4B,2T
R Sway Bar
Mount To Chassis Bush SPF1344-_ _K 1 Measure bar diameter
19,20,22mm
available 2B
Dave Friedlander
'94SL
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:48:42 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
3000GT poly bushings
Kinda weird --- there are no sway bar link bushings on our car, nor is
there an
upper control arm. It would be interesting to contact them and get
details.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:23:37 -0600
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Transfer Case Recall
Actually they cannot refuse to replace it under recall if it doesn't
show
problems the first checkup but develops a leak later. Its a safety
recall,
and must be performed in the event that it leaks - no matter how many
times
it has been inspected before.
If you are refused recall service, call the phone numbers on the
recall
mailer that you got and it should get taken care of. I doubt
that
Dodge/Mitsubishi want to have people start suing them for their cars
locking
up and crashing after the safety recall had been ignored by a
dealer. They
should take care of you if it starts leaking at any
point...
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:47:29 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Replacing Turbo Oil Lines (Was: SS Braided turbo oil lines
from 3sx)
No 368 turbos do not need any mods for the oil lines. If you look at
the
turbos closely you'll see that the oil lines do not interfer with
the
comrpessor housing at all and this is the only outside change you see
from
the 368 ! It's the turbo water lines not the oil lines that must
be
modified.
I had the braided oil lines installed on my car when I installed the
368s,
but I learned that there is way too much load on the bolts at the oil
pan
due to the flex of the lines. And the connection to the oil pan is not
the
strongest part as you can only apply a small amount of tourque to the
bolts.
I tried everything back and forth but ended up in using the stock
piping as
it simply lines up perfectly without any load against the
bolts.
The braided lines look nice but can easily be done by yourself for half
the
price by gettign the parts from Summit Racing catalog. 45°
angeled
connections, 90° bends and so on, but even then I did not found a way
to
bend such a braided line without getting too much load to the
flanges.
IMHO, get the water lines, they are needed for larger turbos.
------------------------------
Take the rebuilt transfer case! They are trying to save your
car!
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:36:46 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Replacing Turbo Oil Lines (Was: SS Braided turbo oil lines from 3sx)
Roger --- you're right about the oil lines I was confusing the two.
I'll still have to
consider the coolosity factor. If I ever run over a
pedestrian he'll be able to see
my cool looking oil lines.
Hmmmm --- The oil pan I'm using has a steel plate spot welded to the inside
of the
pan with a couple of nuts welded to that, It "looks" plenty strong. My
plan was to
use a weldable AN bung at the pan.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#303
***************************************