Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, October 28
2003 Volume 02 : Number
286
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:37:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)
Well, theres usually some kinda dark-secret snake oil in
that stuff that
helps keep it in-place and flow heavier into older/larger
bearing
clearnaces...
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, fastmax wrote:
>
I find it a little hard to believe that Maxlife is the only oil that has the
thermal
> stability required --- he said warm starts, not cold.
>
> Jim Berry
>
========================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
>
To: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
> Cc:
"fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>; <
Team3S@team3s.com>
> Sent: Monday,
October 27, 2003 4:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing
Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)
>
>
> > Im
not insulting you..its still THAT simple.
> >
> > It has more
resistance to flow when cold.
> >
> > Who knows what they put
in there..but thats whats goin on.
> >
> > On Mon, 27 Oct
2003, Ken Stanton wrote:
> >
> > > Mohler!
> >
>
> > > What an insult to my intelligence! Do you think
I'm a bonehead or what?
> > > I'm smart enough to understand what
weight of oils is about, so I'll be more
> > > explicit this
time.
> > >
> > > MaxLife is the -ONLY- oil that
removes (masks) my oil pressure problem. Not
> > > natural
5c/qt oil, not mid grade natural, no blends, no pure syns, and not
> >
> Mobil1. 0w-30 or 10w-50 i've had them all.
> > >
>
>
>
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have
it!"
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:03:11
-0500
From: "Steven Chen" <
fourchens@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Brake Bleeding
To: Mr Gross
From: Steve Chen
Date:
10/27/03
I certainly am not a 3kgt/Stealth expert by anyone's standard,
but I do know
a little about physics/fluid dynamicshydraulics. I
suggest that there may
be 2 possible explanations for the cap popping
loose.
1. There is still cool/dense air/water vapor left in the
lines/pump that
expands when heated (pressing on the brakes) that develops
enough pressure
to loosen the cap. The brake fluid can easily reach
temperatures exceeding
the boiling point of water. The thermal
coefficient of expansion of the
brake fluid is much less than air/water vapor
for the same volume. If a
"significant" amount of air/water vapor
remains in the system, the pressure
will increase more than if all the volume
in the system is occupied by brake
fluid.
2. There may be small
"pockets" (fittings, check valve, pump) of old brake
fluid remaining in the
system that cause the reservoir to be overfilled when
the hydraulic system is
fully operational. It might be an easy check to
reduce the amount fluid
in the reservoir before operating and check the
level after
operating.
Just a couple of guesses from a dumb engineer.
- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
To: "Team3S
List (E-mail)" <
team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday,
October 27, 2003 2:11 PM
Subject: Team3S: Brake Bleeding
>
Funny how there's already a thread about bleed order and running the
engine
or not...
>
> I've had a problem the last 3 times I've bled my
brakes. The first time,
I thought it was my fault. The second
time, I thought it was because I was
at the track driving the crap out of the
car. Now, with the third time, I
don't think it's a
coincidence.
>
> After bleeding my brakes and then driving for
50-300mi, the cap on my
brake fluid reservoir pops off. Not "flies off
to the nether regions of the
engine bay," but "pops loose from the threads
and allows brake fluid to
slosh about, eventually making its way down to my
power steering pump/belt
and making it squeak."
>
> The last two
times (and I was pretty sure the first time, too) I've been
extra careful to
make sure the cap was fully tightened and hadn't skipped
any threads.
Therefore, I have to conclude that something is causing a
pressure buildup in
the reservoir and popping the cap off. Once it pops off
and I retighten
it, it never pops off again until I bleed the brakes again.
>
> The
only thing I can come up with is that the last 3 times (I know for
sure, and
it may be more times than that) I bled the brakes, I *didn't*
start the
engine. Mainly, this was because I was in my garage and didn't
want to
breathe exhaust fumes while bleeding the brakes. Perhaps the reason
for
running the engine isn't because it engages the ABS electronics, but
that it
provides brake boost and allows greater braking pressure.
>
> Does
that even make sense? --that if you bleed the brakes with the
engine
off and then seal the system, the pressures generated in the braking
system
with the engine running will cause a pressure build-up in the
reservoir and
be able to pop the cap off?
>
> Any ideas as to
what's going on here? Next time I bleed the brakes, I
will certainly do
it with the engine on and keep a close eye on the
reservoir
cap...
>
> In case it matters, I have stock calipers/rotors, speed
bleeders, R4S
pads, and ATE Super Blue fluid.
>
> --Erik
>
'95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross>
>
>
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:16:44
-0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: 3S-Racers: OT: Learn to race with the Pros! Announcing a new driving school
with Pro Instructors
It'd have to be a lot different to cause brake
failure --- I felt that I could take at least
5 seconds off of my time [
2nd time at the track, 1st at the full track ]. Turn one, nine
and ten
caused me some problems [ pucker factor ]. An additional bump in one
sure
can't help my times
though.
Jim
Berry
===============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
>
Different track.
>
> The new ashpalt is a tad slower, and turn1 is
sorta different with a new
> hump in it.
>
> On Mon, 27 Oct
2003, fastmax wrote:
>
> > Must be operator error old timer ---
I was running 2:05's last year with no brake
> > problems. R4 pads with
Porterfield non cryo treated rotors and Big Reds --- no
> > flames, no
fade.
> >
> >
Jim Berry
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:10:00
-0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Water Temp and Dynamometers
Since a buddy of mine had some
"extra" dyno-time at a recent WRX dyno weekend, I took my car down to get a pull
in. Not too much done to my car power-wise at this point, so it was more
out of curiosity than anything else...
Among other things I observed
(like I might be over-cooling the intake charge with my water injection), one
thing kinda bothered me: the coolant temperatures I saw. While
idling on the dyno (Mustang Dyno) with 1 huge fan (radiator, PS IC) and one
smaller fan (DS IC), my coolant stayed right around 90C, with my oil temps being
around there. We did the pulls in 4th, starting at 1700RPM or so. I
watched my coolant temp rise steadily until I had the dyno operator shut her
down about 6000RPM. At that point, my coolant had just hit 108C (226F) and
had not shown signs of leveling off. I think my peak oil temps were around
110C.
In case you're wondering why I had him shut the car down at
6000RPM, part of it was the coolant temps were making me nervous, and part of it
was that I'd lost 10psi of fuel pressure by 6000RPM and I didn't trust the
tailpipe-sniffer's A/F reading. This was before my recent acquisition of a
WB O2 sensor and datalogger.
In any case, contrast the 108C (226C)
coolant temperature I saw on the dyno with the *PEAK* temperature of 98C (209F)
during a four 20-minute sessions driving around Portland International a few
weeks ago. And at PIR, I was running hot enough to get my oil temps to
peak at 129C (264F).
The conclusion I come to is that the airflow
generated by those fans on that dynamometer were inadequate for keeping my car
in the "safe zone" as far as temperature was concerned. Thoughts on
that? Is that what you'd think, too, or is 108C not a
problem?
Funny thing is that the WRX guys were out there all weekend
doing pull after pull after pull and nobody was complaining about elevated
coolant temps.
Relevant Mods:
-
------------------------------
K&N
Downpipe (improved pre-cats)
OEM
Main Cat
Boost Controller @0.95kg
Water Injection
MSD Coils and plugs
at 0.039"
Defi Gauges (all of 'em)
-
------------------------------
Numbers from Pulls
-
---------------------
225awhp
247ft-lbs
- ---------------------
WRX
guys said the dyno was about 20hp low
based on dynoing a couple stock
WRXs...
don't know if that applies to my numbers
or not, but they seem a
little low. I'll post
the actual charts/data later this week.
-
--Erik
'95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:23:29
-0500
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Temp and Dynamometers
At 08:10 PM 10/27/2003, Gross,
Erik wrote:
>The conclusion I come to is that the airflow generated by
those fans on
>that dynamometer were inadequate for keeping my car in the
"safe zone" as
>far as temperature was concerned. Thoughts on
that? Is that what you'd
>think, too, or is 108C not a
problem?
It was a good call on your part to call it off. A properly sized
vehicle
dyno cooling blower looks like a huge cannon and is usually about
half the
size of the car. They are expensive, so many dyno shops are not
willing to
spend money on them. Last summer a local shop blew up a VR4
because he used
a "window" fan and "personal" fan on a floor
stand.
If I had to dyno a car with a small cooling fan, I would watch all
the
temperatures very closely and I would be also spraying the radiator and
intercoolers with water.
Philip
http://supercar-engineering.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:49:18
+0100
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Temp and Dynamometers
You just experienced what I have
said many times ... and unfortunately I
have to say that I have been in a
bad situation too. On one pull of a 2nd
gen 3000GT we blew the engine at
0.85 bars of boost. We had my car several
times o nthat dyno and the fan is
not a little one. But it was always
infront of the radiator and I never saw
problems on my 93. The only thing
what bothered me was the inlet temperature
in the y-pipe what rose above
112°C ... remember, desired temp is below 70°C
in the intake manifold.
Therefore I decided to move the radiator to shed
more cold air to the
intercoolers on that second gen car. The charged air
became then less than
80°C but ... bang, one piston broke due to overheating
(also spark plug
broke apart). The water temp got pegged within a few
seconds and it was
already too late when we shut it off.
Since then,
I only go to dynos that have a a great fan construction with
large tubing
that directs the air to the parts I want to. I remember many
pics or videos
with such ugly fans. Those people are ignorant and risk
their engine. It's
not a big problem if one is doing the well known 3
second pull mayn do. This
gives wrong power but the car is not under full
load for a longer period. A
full sweep dyno run needs to have the same
airflow like on the road,
otherwise any engine system is in danger.
Regarding the hp, everybody
says that the dyno doesn't show enoguh to make
you feel better when you walk
away.
Water temp should always stay at 90°C, I never saw any change on my
93
neither on the Monza track in hot Summer, nor on any dynos I had the car
on. I saw 3 2nd gen cars with climbing temperatures.
In the end a
dyno must have a battery of fans that shed the air where it
belongs to. But
also, I start to think about a change in the cooling system
Mitsu made from
1st to 2nd generation. I can't imagine what but I
definitely ask them when I
have a meeting with those boys later this week.
Roger G.
93 & 96
3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch>In any
case, contrast the 108C (226C) coolant temperature I saw on the
>dyno
with the *PEAK* temperature of 98C (209F) during a four 20-minute
>sessions driving around Portland International a few weeks ago.
And at
>PIR, I was running hot enough to get my oil temps to peak at 129C
(264F).
>
>The conclusion I come to is that the airflow generated by
those fans on
>that dynamometer were inadequate for keeping my car in the
"safe zone" as
>far as temperature was concerned. Thoughts on
that? Is that what you'd
>think, too, or is 108C not a
problem?
>
>Funny thing is that the WRX guys were out there all
weekend doing pull
>after pull after pull and nobody was complaining
about elevated coolant temps.
>
>Relevant
Mods:
>------------------------------
>K&N
>Downpipe
(improved pre-cats)
>OEM Main Cat
>Boost Controller
@0.95kg
>Water Injection
>MSD Coils and plugs at 0.039"
>Defi
Gauges (all of 'em)
>------------------------------
>
>Numbers
from
Pulls
>---------------------
>225awhp
>247ft-lbs
>---------------------
>WRX
guys said the dyno was about 20hp low
>based on dynoing a couple stock
WRXs...
>don't know if that applies to my numbers
>or not, but they
seem a little low. I'll post
>the actual charts/data later this
week.
>
>--Erik
>'95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:03:46
-0700
From: "Jim Floyd" <
jim_floyd7@earthlink.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Water Temp and Dynamometers
What was the brand of the dyno
and did it use rollers or attach to your
wheels ?
Jim Floyd
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Gross, Erik
Sent: Monday,
October 27, 2003 6:10 PM
To: Team3S List (E-mail)
Subject: Team3S: Water
Temp and Dynamometers
Since a buddy of mine had some "extra" dyno-time at
a recent WRX dyno
weekend, I took my car down to get a pull in. Not too
much done to my
car power-wise at this point, so it was more out of curiosity
than
anything else...
Among other things I observed (like I might be
over-cooling the intake
charge with my water injection), one thing kinda
bothered me: the
coolant temperatures I saw. While idling on the
dyno (Mustang Dyno)
with 1 huge fan (radiator, PS IC) and one smaller fan (DS
IC), my
coolant stayed right around 90C, with my oil temps being around
there.
We did the pulls in 4th, starting at 1700RPM or so. I watched
my
coolant temp rise steadily until I had the dyno operator shut her
down
about 6000RPM. At that point, my coolant had just hit 108C (226F)
and
had not shown signs of leveling off. I think my peak oil temps
were
around 110C.
In case you're wondering why I had him shut
the car down at 6000RPM,
part of it was the coolant temps were making me
nervous, and part of it
was that I'd lost 10psi of fuel pressure by 6000RPM
and I didn't trust
the tailpipe-sniffer's A/F reading. This was before
my recent
acquisition of a WB O2 sensor and datalogger.
In any case,
contrast the 108C (226C) coolant temperature I saw on the
dyno with the
*PEAK* temperature of 98C (209F) during a four 20-minute
sessions driving
around Portland International a few weeks ago. And at
PIR, I was
running hot enough to get my oil temps to peak at 129C
(264F).
The conclusion I come to is that the airflow generated by those fans
on
that dynamometer were inadequate for keeping my car in the "safe
zone"
as far as temperature was concerned. Thoughts on that? Is
that what
you'd think, too, or is 108C not a problem?
Funny thing is
that the WRX guys were out there all weekend doing pull
after pull after pull
and nobody was complaining about elevated coolant
temps.
Relevant
Mods:
- ------------------------------
K&N
Downpipe (improved
pre-cats)
OEM Main Cat
Boost Controller @0.95kg
Water Injection
MSD
Coils and plugs at 0.039"
Defi Gauges (all of 'em)
-
------------------------------
Numbers from Pulls
-
---------------------
225awhp
247ft-lbs
- ---------------------
WRX
guys said the dyno was about 20hp low
based on dynoing a couple stock
WRXs...
don't know if that applies to my numbers
or not, but they seem a
little low. I'll post
the actual charts/data later this week.
-
--Erik
'95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:36:39
-0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
3S-Racers: Road America Oct 2003 Was Great!
Yet another FWIW --- I read
somewhere that the presence of the thermostat
causes a restriction in the
fluid flow which in turn raises the pressure in the
block and thus raises the
boiling point of the fluid. Localized boiling [ hot spots ]
is reduced
as a result ---- the physics is correct, as to whether it applies to our
car
is another matter.
Have you tried the 'raising the back of the hood'
trick --- it's easy, cheap and
reversable. Does your CF hood have extraction
vents ???
Jim
Berry
====================================================
- -----
Original Message -----
From: "xwing" <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
> It
ended up steaming over on 2 outings. I removed the thermostat as
an
> experiment, I think that may have helped a little but still
steamed
> afterward once (I don't subscribe to the "must keep coolant slow
to absorb
> heat" theory).
>
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:01:49
-0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: OT: Learn to race with the Pros! Announcing a new
driving school with Pro Instructors
brake failure can be a lot of
things..not just the track.
Bob..R4 or R4s?
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003,
fastmax wrote:
> It'd have to be a lot different to cause brake
failure --- I felt that I could take at least
> 5 seconds off of my time [
2nd time at the track, 1st at the full track ]. Turn one, nine
>
and ten caused me some problems [ pucker factor ]. An additional bump in one
sure
> can't help my times though.
>
>
> Jim Berry
>
===============================================
> ----- Original Message
-----
> From: "Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
>
>
> > Different track.
> >
> > The new
ashpalt is a tad slower, and turn1 is sorta different with a new
> >
hump in it.
> >
> > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, fastmax
wrote:
> >
> > > Must be operator error old timer --- I
was running 2:05's last year with no brake
> > > problems. R4 pads
with Porterfield non cryo treated rotors and Big Reds --- no
> > >
flames, no fade.
> > >
> >
> Jim Berry
>
>
>
>
> --
> To sub: Email
majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of
'subscribe 3sracers'.
> To unsub: Email
majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of
'unsubscribe 3sracers'
> "Ban low performance drivers, not high
performance cars."
>
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have
it!"
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:47:29
-0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Water Temp and Dynamometers
> What was the brand of the dyno
and did it use rollers or
> attach to your wheels ?
>
> Jim
Floyd
It was a Mustang Dyno that had huge rollers under all the
wheels. They dyno was able to significantly load the engine, and the pulls
took probably 10-15 sec. I have video, so I can see exactly how long they
took, but I don't have it with me right now. I know that I was sitting in
the car while the wheels spun at over 100mph for at least a couple
seconds.
Here's their website:
http://www.matrixengineering.cc/dyno_1.phpThat's
the "large" fan in the picture, and they had another, more focused fan (smaller
output) blowing on one of my intercoolers.
- --Erik
'95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:18:45
-0800 (PST)
From:
vr4glenn@newsguy.comSubject: RE:
Team3S: Water Temp and Dynamometers
According to the Matrix website, the
fan is 12,500 cfm and appears to be 3.5
feet tall, or roughly 5 square
feet of frontal area.
At 120 mph, a car is traveling 10,500+ feet per
minute.
For the 5 square feet covered by the fan, that would be 52,500
cfm.
Slightly more airflow than the fan.
If the fan was as
powerful as real life, the open hood (in the website
picture) would be bent
backward and smashed against the windshield.
Glenn
At Tue,
28 Oct 2003 10:47:29 -0800, you wrote
>> What was the brand of the dyno
and did it use rollers or
>> attach to your wheels ?
>>
>> Jim Floyd
>
>It was a Mustang Dyno that had huge
rollers under all the wheels. They dyno
>was able to significantly
load the engine, and the pulls took probably 10-15
>sec. I have
video, so I can see exactly how long they took, but I don't have
>it with
me right now. I know that I was sitting in the car while the
wheels
>spun at over 100mph for at least a couple
seconds.
>
>Here's their
website:
>http://www.matrixengineering.cc/dyno_1.php
>
>That's
the "large" fan in the picture, and they had another, more focused
fan
>(smaller output) blowing on one of my
intercoolers.
>
>--Erik
>'95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross>
>
>
>***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:58:15
-0800
From: Michael Gerhard <
gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: Team3S:
Spun rod bearing - now what
I have a 1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT
VR-4.
Well, my last trip to the track ended with some loud knocking and
my local
Mitsubishi dealership has diagnosed it as a spun rod bearing. The
dealership (Concord, CA) estimates it would cost about $4500 if they can
rebuild the engine, or $9000 if it needs a short block. They also quoted 15
hours at $125/hour (inflated because it is heavy maintenance) or about
$1900 to just remove/replace the engine.
The good news is they are
only charging me $51.50 for the diagnosis. I'm
getting it towed home and
will proceed from there with options other than
with the
dealership.
I've been following the list for a couple of years and have
thought that
some folks have had great success with rebuilding and others
with JDM
blocks. It also looks like it takes a bit of time to get the
repairs done.
I've got some questions I'd like advice on. I had planned
on driving on
November 15 and 30 at High Performance Driving Schools at
Thunderhill in
Northern California. I'm thinking that rather than push a
fast repair, I
will cancel my plans. I will probably attend the 15th as an
instructor.
(1) Rebuilding vs. short block vs. long block.
The
dealership said that the rebuild is a function of how bad the crank is
and
how much metal has been thrown about in the engine.
I've already checked
with M&S Recycling in Sacramento and Mitsubishi &
Nissan Recycling
in Fresno and neither has used engines. I'm going to go
down Jeff Lucius'
list to see about other sources for engines (Nippon
Motors, Japan Direct,
etc). If anyone has a good suggestion I'd appreciate it.
Also, one
suggestion was to obtain a used engine from Calumet in Texas. I
had yet to
hear about them, however I do have a call into them to see what
they might
be able to provide.
(2) Doing the work myself vs. a shop vs. the
dealership
I'm already thinking that the dealership is way to expensive.
I'm looking
into other shops (I'm in the East Bay of the San Francisco Bay
Area) that
might be able to do the rebuild or engine replacement. I've noted
that
quite a few Team3S folks have pulled their own engines and have
indicated
that it may be quite straight forward.
I'm wondering what
you all might suggest as far as doing this kind of work.
I'm curious as to
how much space one needs to pull the engine. I've been
thinking that I might
want to have the car backed into the garage to allow
me to work in the open
garage door to get the engine out and back in. I
have a 3 car garage where
the 2 car bay is comfortably wide for one car (I
have work benches and power
tools on both sides). I could possibly have the
single bay cleaned out to
allow me to work on the engine and to spread out
parts. I could also pull
the engine and take it to a shop to get repaired
and then put it back
in.
I have the service manual and backup CD.
(3) All in all,
the cost and time involved come into play.
It is way cheaper to do
everything myself. However, it is also a large time
commitment. I'm curious
as to how much time might be involved, depending on
how I approach the job.
I can also see farming out the whole job to someone
(other than the
dealership). I'm interested in knowing others experiences
in success and
cost for doing that.
Thanks for all the input I know I will get. I'm
bummed that I'm non-op for
right now. I'm hoping to be back in the saddle at
some point.
-
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mike
Gerhard 1991
Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 Pearl White
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:31:52
-0600
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Spun rod bearing - now what
>I've already checked with
M&S Recycling in Sacramento and Mitsubishi &
>Nissan Recycling in
Fresno and neither has used engines. I'm going to go
>down Jeff Lucius'
list to see about other sources for engines (Nippon
>Motors, Japan
Direct, etc). If anyone has a good suggestion I'd appreciate
it.
>
I
was on 3Si.org last night and saw some complete engines for
sale.
Rich
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:42:47
-0500
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Road America Oct 2003 Was Great!
Jack tried
the first day with the thermostat and the second day without it.
He said it
ran cooler without it but not cooler enough. I think he will
install it back
and think about doing something else.
I have been reading a bunch of good
engineering books today. The back of
the hood is a high pressure zone. It is
good for air inlet or for the
cockpit ventilation air inlet. You do not want
to raise the back of the
hood to increase air flow through the radiator. The
very front of the hood
is also a high-pressure zone. The only low-pressure
zone there is the
front-middle part of the hood. It is probably a good place
to cut holes in.
However, it would be good to test air pressure right under
the hood in that
spot while driving before using a hacksaw. It could be done
easily with
small air tubes taped onto both sides of the hood and a water
column type
pressure gauge.
Philip
-
--------------------------------
Yet another FWIW --- I read somewhere
that the presence of the thermostat
causes a restriction in the fluid flow
which in turn raises the pressure in
the
block and thus raises the boiling
point of the fluid. Localized boiling [
hot spots ]
is reduced as a
result ---- the physics is correct, as to whether it
applies to our
car is
another matter.
Have you tried the 'raising the back of the hood' trick
--- it's easy,
cheap and
reversable. Does your CF hood have extraction
vents ???
Jim
Berry
====================================================
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:42:01
-0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: Team3S:
RE: 3S-Racers: Road America Oct 2003 Was Great!
Wow! I am truly jealous
on this one.
I am quite surprised that with the large radiator and fans
you had
heating problems. If you could get a reading on the radiator exit
temp,
then you could tell if you needed more cooling power or more flow
power.
I looked once quickly, but did not see any high volume water
pumps or
electric assist pumps that would easily plump in, but maybe an
added
bilge pump or something.
If you install an under tray cowl or
flap, just under the radiator,
perhaps that
could lower pressure under
the engine to help airflow. A semi-hard flap,
at
about a 30-40 deg angle,
center to outboard angle, would push a lot of
air off to the sides. I say
semi-hard to cope with bumps and such, and
that way
you can have almost
zero road clearance.
I can't believe you were flying like that on Khumo
Ecsta, on Victoracers
you
would have to be 5 secs faster at
RA.
Kurt
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-3sracers@speedtoys.com
[mailto:owner-3sracers@speedtoys.com]
On Behalf Of xwing
Sent: Sunday,
October 26, 2003 7:36 AM
To:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st;
3sracers@speedtoys.comSubject:
3S-Racers: Road America Oct 2003 Was Great!
Phil Glazatov is right,
the Road America weekend was a blast!!!
I had the 94 VR4 with the AEM
computer tuned in a little better, and the
120mph speedlimiting glitch fixed
(found that out in the April RA
outing), and based on the overheating at the
3S National Gathering, I
have switched to the PPE doublepass aluminum
radiator. I used the PPE
aluminum rear shroud, and 2x12" 1200cfm fans
(ALL that will fit with
front turbo RIGHT there), which come on at 185 and
188 degrees F. The
fans are very well sealed to the shroud, which fits
tightly so all air
coming through the fans MUST come through the radiator
first. I coated
the headers, turbines, downpipe with thermal barrier
coating; and used
stock Mitsu heat shields and some aluminum to try to block
heat from
radiating ONTO the rear of the radiator from the HOT front
turbo. I
wrapped the oil draintubes with heatreflective
material.
I was pretty happy with the job compared to how "most" TD05
setups would
be if you just used stock radiator, and had
nocoatings/heatshields on
front turbo. I think this is why my, and
other, TD05 cars have even
overheated simply driving around town
(!).
It certainly cools way better than it did before, and at a
shorter/lower
hp utilizing track like Gateway's at 3S NG I think it would
have been
ok. At Road America, on the gas for extended periods, it was
not enough
cooling--even with interior heat on full (which also helps
though); the
temp would go to redzone after a lap and a half+. It would
stay there,
go above or below a little based on how much I would let it
cruise at
~120mph instead of trying to get up to 155+ (saw that once but the
heat
precluded anything more, or repeating it). It ended up steaming over
on
2 outings. I removed the thermostat as an experiment, I think that
may
have helped a little but still steamed afterward once (I don't
subscribe
to the "must keep coolant slow to absorb heat" theory).
I
don't yet have the front end ducted properly. The stock front
airdam
and undertray plastic is gone due to frontmount IC; and the air
entering
the front could escape to the sides of the IC/AC
condenser/radiator.
Still, the fans were pulling (though FIRST time out the
stupid AEM
decided NOT to run the fans; I had to re-upload the computer
program
into the AEM box from my laptop, then it remembered to use the
fans.
AEM can be like Lucas Electrics
sometimes...) I wonder what/how to
duct and block things to get rid of
underhood pressure (I know it is high
pressure under there, the carbon
hood used to bow way up on the sides until I
put 2 more Dzus fasteners
on the edges of the hood halfway back)...need an
extractor hood too.
I think I MAY have to get rid of the AC/condenser as
restriction to
cooling, though I will probably try to retain it ONE more
time, and have
the frontend ductwork made proper; get the largest freaking
oilcooler
that will fit on the driverside; maybe move the whole radiator
forward
so I can fit way bigger fans/better shrouding (the PPE doesn't have
much
depth, and the fans had to be modified by cutting little 1/2" by 3"
or
so "windows" so suction could reach the OUTSIDE areas, past the
fans'
own round shrouds directly around the blades). Maybe I can find a
small
auxiliary radiator to put in the passengerside of the frontend, and
a
small electric waterpump so it doesn't have to try to handle
full
waterflow rates, but could be used for aux cooling when
needed.
We were all eating dinner Saturday night imbibing adult beverages
:) and
ideas like lining the front fenders with coolant tubes so the
front
fenders act as radiators; putting a Big Ass Radiator up underneath
the
car where the rear seats used to be, or off the back end of
the
car...big radiators that swing out from the front and rear fenders
(like
the Jupiter 2 on the Lost In Space Movie when the warpdrive
was
activated :) when more cooling is needed...Oh Yes, the cooling
issue
will be solved :) Extra weight that DOES something doesn't bother me
too
much.
Lou Gigliotti had his gigando doubledecker race trailer and
team there;
he was giving lessons for those who wanted, for $55 or so.
I was going
out for another session and one of his guys flagged me down for a
ride;
I asked why in the world he wanted to come in MY poor car...he said
'You
passed me and another guy in his Vette pretty fast so I wanted to
check
it out' :)
I was running "low boost" all the time, but a couple
times I cranked it
up to 23psi to do a little warp drive past a way modded
930 turbo, a
Viper, a Vette (there were so many Z06's and
supercharged/hopped
upVettes there it was hard to believe/know which ones had
which engine
mods)...
My car has stock adjustable struts (which I like
fine, BTW) with Ground
Control 500/375 front/rear springrates; old, used on
street and multiple
events hard (73 durometer) Kumho Ecsta V700 265-35's on
18x9"SSR GT1
rims. I like the ride of these springs and stock struts for
street
driving. Has Saner front antiroll bar (didn't put rear one on
yet);
Brembo 14" frontbrakes with Pagid Orange pads (worked well, wore not
too
much); stock rear brakes with Porterfield R4 pads; no ducts to
brakes
yet. My hotlap timer wasn't working right, I think there were
multiple
transmitters out, but I saw a 2:42 lap on video with some holdups
and
not at full power, which equals the best laps I had last year with
17G's
(though that motor had 12 bent intake valves/missed, and found
one
rockerarm off after the event, drat those Web cams). I think it
likely
that the rollcage (with weled in rear strutbar) and the TEC
front
strutbar stiffened the chassis up some; can't say I notice it
alot
though; our cars never struck me as flexi-flyers in the first
place
(coming from 2nd Gen Firebird experience ;) The car handled nicely;
it
seemed just on the understeer side of neutral (where I want it
anyway)
and could get a touch of oversteer out of turn 5 by getting on the
gas.
I think Phil has some shots of my rear tires making some black marks
in
a rear/4 wheel drift once. Yes, with good power, the AWD really
gets
fun, interesting (in a good way), and fast :) The forged pistons,
big
turbos, etc smoke a little on shifts as is their wont. I still get
the
occasional loud pop and/or flames out exhaust on upshifts :)
The
TD05's on this high HP track aren't nearly as handicapped due to
slower
spoolup as they were at Gateway's shorter/slower course; I could
either go
slow and wait for spool in 3rd, or downshift into 2nd on the
slowest corners
and then it was Katie Bar The Door :) The Kormex tranny
still blocks 3rd but
not as bad as during dragrace duty; and this Kormex
did let me into 5th gear,
which previous version at RA would NOT (would
block 3rd AND 5th at high
rpm). I have called, left messages, and
EMailed Frank at Kormex
to talk about this, but have never recieved a
reply. I am forced to
look for another transaxle rebuilder. I can't
drive the car well this
way.
I am confident the car will do 2:30's once I can cool the
engine
properly, with newer tires etc.
The amazing thing was Phil and
I mixing it up and doing great against
these other great cars...this was NOT
like the usual BMW etc event with
alot of relatively slow stuff and a few
fast cars; the rule was modded
Z06's, F-Bodies, supercharged track-dedicated
S2000, Vipers, race BMW's.
Our cars haven't had the best reputation amongst
the SportsCar crowd,
and almost nobody really makes parts for this sort of
duty as vs.other
makes; but considering Phil and my cars' "developmental
mule" status we
did great, and there were ALOT of fast but surprised people
getting
passed by. The one guy with the Z06 pitted next to me blocked
me a
whole session on Saturday...I ended up pushing him
HARD...blue/yellow
flags hung like it was the United Nations building, but he
wouldn't let
me by. His buddy came by afterward and said 'that's a fast
car, I guess
we should have let you by'...I made sure to kick the boost up
and lay
waste to THAT car after turn 14 going up the front straight on a
later
outing. I lent him a helmet for his GF to use with the condition
"next
time you have to let me by when I'm coming up on you" :) he
smiled; it
was all in fun. Now I know my winter projects, too. WAY fun!
Jack T.
- --
To sub: Email
majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of
'subscribe
3sracers'.
To unsub: Email
majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of
'unsubscribe
3sracers' "Ban low performance drivers, not high performance
cars."
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:32:47
-0600
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Road America Oct 2003 Was Great!
>I have
been reading a bunch of good engineering books today. The back of
>the
hood is a high pressure zone. It is good for air inlet or for the
>cockpit
ventilation air inlet. You do not want to raise the back of the
>hood to
increase air flow through the radiator. The very front of the hood
>is
also a high-pressure zone. The only low-pressure zone there is
the
>front-middle part of the hood.
How about the strut tower
bulges? Those are off to the side.
It seems to me that we want to relieve
the underhood pressure so that air
can flow freely through there. Air should
be able to enter the radiator, be
pulled through by the fans, and exit under
the car or out hood vents.
Otherwise, pressure builds up and prevents cooling
air from getting through
the rad and over the turbos. Jack says his carbon
fiber hood bulges under
the pressure. That's a lot of pressure, and it acts
like a big dam. If we
could get all that high pressure underhood air to vent
itself onto the
brake rotors, we could kill solve two problems at once.
Rich/full of hot air
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:47:54
-0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Road America Oct 2003 Was Great!
Work on
aerodynamics as well, a FULL front airdam & splitter could solve
those
pressure isues AND suck more thru the radiator.
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003,
merritt@cedar-rapids.net
wrote:
> >I have been reading a bunch of good engineering books
today. The back of
> >the hood is a high pressure zone. It is good for
air inlet or for the
> >cockpit ventilation air inlet. You do not want
to raise the back of the
> >hood to increase air flow through the
radiator. The very front of the hood
> >is also a high-pressure zone.
The only low-pressure zone there is the
> >front-middle part of the
hood.
>
> How about the strut tower bulges? Those are off to the
side.
>
> It seems to me that we want to relieve the underhood
pressure so that air
> can flow freely through there. Air should be able
to enter the radiator, be
> pulled through by the fans, and exit under the
car or out hood vents.
> Otherwise, pressure builds up and prevents
cooling air from getting through
> the rad and over the turbos. Jack says
his carbon fiber hood bulges under
> the pressure. That's a lot of
pressure, and it acts like a big dam. If we
> could get all that high
pressure underhood air to vent itself onto the
> brake rotors, we could
kill solve two problems at once.
>
> Rich/full of hot air
>
>
> --
> To sub: Email
majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of
'subscribe 3sracers'.
> To unsub: Email
majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of
'unsubscribe 3sracers'
> "Ban low performance drivers, not high
performance cars."
>
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have
it!"
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:28:40
-0500
From: Bill Ma <
BillMa@FLAGCOMM.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Ross Pistons
Hey list.
I'm going to be buying a few sets
of pistons for the shop, including a set
for my 3000gt vr4. I wanted to see
if anyone else was interested in getting
some. I'll be getting them at a
pretty good price and wanted to pass along
the opportunity to the
list.
These are Ross Pistons with rings and wrist pins. The information
can be
found at this site.
http://www.rosspistons.com/automotive_stocking_pistons/sport_compact/mitsubishi.php3
Here
are the prices.
3000GT
91mm (stock) 808.58
92mm (3.05L)
808.58
93mm (3.1L) 726.00
All stock compression.
Those are the
retail prices. The 93mm piston is the one they have off the
shelf. The 91 and
92mm pistons are custom jobs and take 2-2.5 weeks to make.
You guys can
take 10% off and you pay acutal shipping.
Also, for an extra $160 I can
get them hard anodized.
If you are interested in any other piston, let me
knonw and I'll get you a
price for them with the same
discount.
Thanks
Bill
http://visionsofspeed.net***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:15:16
-0500
From: "The Furmans" <
L.Furman1@cox.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Road America Oct 2003 Was Great!
Rich you
definately have the right idea, I am inclined to recommend to
Jack that he
vent the hood similar to what Pit Road M does on thier
hoods. If only
those hoods didnt have the vents along the strut
towers, I do not want to
expose my TEIN EDFC motors to rain, dirt, and
debris espically the 120 MPH
varieties ;)
Russ F
CT
DR-650's and Supporting Mods
- -----
Original Message -----
From: <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
To:
<
3sracers@speedtoys.com>;
"fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Cc:
<
team3s@team3s.com>; <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October
28, 2003 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Road America Oct 2003
Was Great!
> How about the strut tower bulges? Those are off to the
side.
>
> It seems to me that we want to relieve the underhood
pressure so
that air
> can flow freely through there. Air should be
able to enter the
radiator, be
> pulled through by the fans, and exit
under the car or out hood
vents.
> Otherwise, pressure builds up and
prevents cooling air from getting
through
> the rad and over the
turbos. Jack says his carbon fiber hood bulges
under
> the pressure.
That's a lot of pressure, and it acts like a big dam.
If we
> could get
all that high pressure underhood air to vent itself onto
the
> brake
rotors, we could kill solve two problems at once.
>
> Rich/full of
hot air
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:33:11
-0600
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Road America Oct 2003 Was Great!
At 07:15 PM
10/28/2003 -0500, The Furmans wrote:
>Rich you definately have the right
idea, I am inclined to recommend to
>Jack that he vent the hood similar to
what Pit Road M does on thier
>hoods. If only those hoods didnt have
the vents along the strut
>towers, I do not want to expose my TEIN EDFC
motors to rain, dirt, and
>debris espically the 120 MPH varieties
;)
>
Then vent them rearward, so pressure can escape but rain and dirt
can't
come in.
Rich
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:23:33
-0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: 3S-Racers: Road America Oct 2003 Was Great!
NASCAR has been using the
area at the base of the windshield forever,
I know it's a high pressure area
but aerodynamics over the hood and through
the engine compartment is a
complex issue --- it take an hour or so to come
up with a method to raise the
hood and probably 15 minutes to impliment.
It looks like a no-brainer to give
it a try if you've got a overheat problem.
Several folks have taped
pieces of yarn on the hood to check air flow --- speak
up if you have
information folks !!!
Jim
Berry
================================================
- -----
Original Message -----
From: <
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com>
>
> I have been reading a bunch of good engineering books today. The back
of
> the hood is a high pressure zone. It is good for air inlet or for
the
> cockpit ventilation air inlet. You do not want to raise the back of
the
> hood to increase air flow through the radiator. The very front of
the hood
> is also a high-pressure zone. The only low-pressure zone there
is the
> front-middle part of the hood. It is probably a good place to cut
holes in.
> However, it would be good to test air pressure right under the
hood in that
> spot while driving before using a hacksaw. It could be done
easily with
> small air tubes taped onto both sides of the hood and a
water column type
> pressure gauge.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V2
#286
***************************************