Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth   Monday, October 27 2003   Volume 02 : Number 285




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:39:07 -0500
From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE-  Oil squirters causing Spun bearings  (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)

It seems everyone dances around this statement directly, but which motors
(years, models) are we suspecting exactly?

I have a '91 that I'm trying to diagnose a low oil pressure issue with.
 It -occasionally- starts up warm with no pressure, but after a quick rev of
the engine pulls up to normal.  No other issues.  Also, this problem is
minimized/nearly eliminated by using Valv MaxLife oil.

Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT
Under Pressure

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
To: "'John Monnin'" <john.monnin@comcast.net>; <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 7:31 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)


> Yah, I actually just finished reading Magnus's webpage...  They compared
> a 93 block which has the same crank and rods as the 95+ 2nd gen motor.
> This is referred to as a 7 bolt DSM motor (7 bolts on the crank to
> flywheel interface)...  Older DSM motors, 89-92.5, are referred to as 6
> bolts or "big rod" motors...  The rods are huge in comparison, all of
> the bearing journals are huge, rod bearings and crank bearings are
> giant, and, on top of all of that, they use the same type of oil
> squirters as you saw on that '93 block...  It's really a damn near
> bulletproof motor from the factory....  Now, however, from reading what
> they had to say, I agree entirely with their statements...  Assuming
> this can be an issue with the 3/S turbo motor oil squirters, then it is
> definitely worth looking into...  I really think it's a piss poor design
> really, "hmmm, lets pull oil from the part that needs it the most..."
>
> And yes, I knew of the oil passages in the rods for the piston bore
> walls, but, as you mentioned, these are not for cooling of the piston
> itself...
>
> -Cody
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
> Behalf
> > Of John Monnin
> > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 1:05 PM
> > To: 'cody'; Team3S@team3s.com
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
> > Turbo engine needed)
> >
> > Cody:
> >
> > I just double checked a TT rod (same part number as NA Rod),  It does
> > not have a check valve, BUT it definitely has a passage from the main
> > rod bearing to an orifice that squirts on the piston.  The rod bearing
> > has a hole in it that lines up with this passage.
> >
> > Below is a picture of a TT rod and piston below a GN Rod.  Look on the
> > bottom side (relative to this picture) of the rod, the small bump is
> the
> > orifice opening, it points more to the cylinder wall than to the
> piston.
> >
> > http://www.monninengineering.com/images/RodComparison.JPG
> >
> >
> > The lack of check valve destroys my theory that they might be failing
> on
> > NAs but I am stubborn enough to question if the squirters may bleed
> off
> > too much oil if the oil pump is a little too worn.  I am also stubborn
> > enough to still question the main bearings because each main bearing
> oil
> > supply is shared with at least 1 oil squirter.  The 2 center main
> > bearing journals supply 2 oil squirters.  On my engine it was a center
> > main bearing that looked the worst.  See my webpage, first picture at
> > top to see main bearings worn too far.
> >
> > http://johnmonnin.netfirms.com/4boltPictures.html
> >
> >
> > Just for reference this is a picture of the oil squirters in the block
> >
> > http://www.monninengineering.com/images/OilSquirter.JPG
> >
> > My personal experience was when I tore my TT engine apart (timing belt
> > jumped) the Rods bearings looked perfect but most of my main journal
> > bearings had too much wear and one main journal was very close to a
> > failure
> > These bearings only had 86,000 miles on it,  At least 50,000 of those
> > miles were with synthetic oil changes every 2500 miles and with my
> wife
> > driving it almost exclusively and she is a very calm driver
> > I bought this car at a dealer with only 36,000 miles on it and the
> > condition of the rest of the car suggested to me that that the
> original
> > owner took very good care of it before I bought it.
> >
> > To me it is completely unacceptable for a well maintained modern car
> to
> > have this kind of bearing wear.  I originally assumed that there was
> > some kind of oil contamination or OEM bearing clearance problem but I
> > have seen enough  people spins bearing that I am convinced that the
> > oiling system on these engines do not have enough of a safety factor
> > built in.   2 NA's developed rod knock during the NG04 Road course
> > alone, this just irritates me.
> >
> > P.S.  From the pictures it looks like 1st and 2nd gen DSMs bearings
> are
> > the same, but I am not sure so I emailed Magnus Motorsports to find
> out.
> > I'll let you know what I find out.
> >
> > John Monnin
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: cody [mailto:overclck@satx.rr.com]
> > >Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 12:31 PM
> > >To: 'John Monnin'; Team3S@team3s.com
> > >Subject: RE: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was
> 1991
> > >Turbo engine needed)
> >
> > >Oil squirters are not in the rods, but in the block, hopefully that's
> > >just a confusion...  IMHO, the design of the crank journals and the
> > >diameters and widths of the journals are what causes crankwalk in the
> > 2g
> > >DSM cars...  Although it may be oil supply related, I don't think
> > that's
> > >where to look...
> >
> > -Cody
> >
> >
> >
> > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 16:44:11 -0800
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE-  Oil squirters causing Spun bearings  (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)

Yea, I remember reading the posts last year and one thing that the poster
made very clear was that cross drilling the crank was not the solution. If
memory serves right, it was some Porsche motor they were comparing it to.
Turns out that the hole in the crank is incidentally (and carelessly)
located in about the worst place possible for oil flow at high RPMs. It was
almost like the designers never thought about the centrifugal force has on
oil. The solution they posed was to do as the Porsche guys, plug the
original hole and drill one at the perfect location for high RPM.

I don't remember why, but I do remember them saying "don't cross drill, that
will not resolve the problem".

That's just what I remember reading.

Tyson



- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of fastmax
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 2:14 PM
To: John Monnin; 'cody'; Team3S@team3s.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
Turbo engine needed)


Another theory we kicked around a year or so ago was the need for a cross
drilled
crank. The theory on failures from another platform [ BMW ??? ] is that at
high
rpm the centrifical force at the crank reduces or stops the flow of oil to
the bearings.
They too are convinced that their problem was solved. A buddy of mine is
having his
crank cross drilled, but again, one data point isn't going to prove a
theory.

        Jim Berry
=======================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "John Monnin" <john.monnin@comcast.net>
)

> I just double checked a TT rod (same part number as NA Rod),  It does
> not have a check valve, BUT it definitely has a passage from the main
> rod bearing to an orifice that squirts on the piston.  The rod bearing
> has a hole in it that lines up with this passage.
>
> Below is a picture of a TT rod and piston below a GN Rod.  Look on the
> bottom side (relative to this picture) of the rod, the small bump is the
> orifice opening, it points more to the cylinder wall than to the piston.
> My personal experience was when I tore my TT engine apart (timing belt
> jumped) the Rods bearings looked perfect but most of my main journal
> bearings had too much wear and one main journal was very close to a
> failure
> These bearings only had 86,000 miles on it,  At least 50,000 of those
> miles were with synthetic oil changes every 2500 miles and with my wife
> driving it almost exclusively and she is a very calm driver
> I bought this car at a dealer with only 36,000 miles on it and the
> condition of the rest of the car suggested to me that that the original
> owner took very good care of it before I bought it.
>
> To me it is completely unacceptable for a well maintained modern car to
> have this kind of bearing wear.  I originally assumed that there was
> some kind of oil contamination or OEM bearing clearance problem but I
> have seen enough  people spins bearing that I am convinced that the
> oiling system on these engines do not have enough of a safety factor
> built in.   2 NA's developed rod knock during the NG04 Road course
> alone, this just irritates me.
>
> P.S.  From the pictures it looks like 1st and 2nd gen DSMs bearings are
> the same, but I am not sure so I emailed Magnus Motorsports to find out.
> I'll let you know what I find out.




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:33:23 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: Team3S: Tranny Oil

Reading Rich Merritt's ongoing saga, I finally remembered to locate the Redline MTL Technical Information pamphlet so I could share some of the information it says about GL-4 and GL-5 oils.  Realizing that some of this is advertisement, here are the important points:

"Gear and Synchronizer Wear Protection.  Most manufacturers of manual transmissions and transaxles recommend an 80W or 90W GL-4 lubricant.  GL-5 gear oils which are required in hypoid differentials are not used in most synchromesh transmissions because the chemicals used to provide the extreme pressure protection can be corrosive to synchronizers, which are commonly made of brass or bronze.  Typically, the use of a GL-5 lubricant in a synchromesh transmission will shorten the synchronizer life by one half.  The extreme pressure requirements of spur gears and helical gears found in transmissions are not nearly as great as found in rear-wheel drive differentials.  A GL-4 lubricant provides adequate protection for most manual transmissions, unless a unique design consideration requires the extra protection of a GL-5."

With regard to the use of motor oil, the pamphlet states:  "The reason that many manufacturers have made recommendations of motor oils or ATFs is that petroleum 80W gear oils frequently do not shift well as low temperatures.  Motor oils and ATFs are much more fluid at lower temperatures and they are not corrosive toward synchros, but they provide very poor gear protection.  These lubricants provide almost no extreme-pressure protection.  In addition, petroleum multi-grade motor oils and ATFs have very poor shear stability.  The shearing action by a manual transmission on thickeners is much worse than in an engine or automatic transmission.  Within 5000 miles the thickeners can be rendered ineffective and the transmission will be operating on a much reduced level of protection, as shown in the graph below.  In hot weather these transmissions will whine and rattle because of poor vibration dampening and metal contact."



Above email is for intended recipient only and may be confidential and protected by attorney/client privilege.
If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender immediately.
Unauthorized use or distribution is prohibited and may be unlawful.



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:36:25 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: Team3S: RE: 3S-Racers: OT: Learn to race with the Pros! Announcing a new driving school with Pro Instructors

This looks like the sort of thing they have for skiers called a "breakthrough" school to get you off a plateau in performance.

Interesting.

Chuck Willis

- -----Original Message-----
From: E.T. [mailto:ET@GoneRacing.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 6:13 PM
To: Team3S@Team3S.com
Cc: 3SRacers@Team3S.com
Subject: 3S-Racers: OT: Learn to race with the Pros! Announcing a new
driving school with Pro Instructors


Announcing a NEW Driving School!
 
        Have you been driving at track events, and wishing that someone
would show you what to do to improve your driving skills?
 
       Are you frustrated by the lack of instruction you've received to
date?
 
       Are you in a rut and in need of some coaching?
 
       Do you want to drive faster and safer?
 
       Do you want to learn from one of the pros?  ...from someone who
has a "track record" of experience, and a wall full of trophies?
 
If you answered 'yes' to any of these questions, you should join us at :
 
 
Gone Racing - "The Next Level" Driving School
 
Featuring:  Head Coach: Albert Butterfield
Instructors:  Dave Brown, Donny Edwards and Vicman Ng
 
Course Offering: Our school addresses the needs of drivers who want to
improve their driving skills, both on the track and on the street.
Drivers will learn how to drive better, faster and safer. They will
learn racing techniques and strategies. Those who want to race will
learn how to become a winner. Courses are 2 days of instruction in the
classroom and on the track. Students should bring their own cars, either
street or race cars. Race cars can be leased if desired.
 
Note: In order to prepare drivers for their next race or High
Performance Driving Event, all courses will be offered in advance of
NASA events. One-on-one coaching is also available at race and driving
events.
 
Foreword:  "This summer, I received my competition license and began my
racing career.  I bought a Spec Miata race car. Before obtaining my
competition license, I had completed 3 years of NASA High Performance
Driving Events, but there was a lot that I still didn't know, or that I
wish someone had taught me before I went on the track. So I sought out
private couching and instruction from Al Butterfield, Vicman Ng, Donny
Edwards, and Dave Brown.  During this time, I learned how to better
control my car and drive faster and safer. Making the transition from a
High Performance Driving Event to a Competition Race was a traumatic
experience for me-- in the past few months, I have had body contact,
spun off the track numerous times, blew a motor... BUT, out of the 5
races I've entered, I've placed second in 3 of the events, and I've had
the most exhilarating time of my life!  I attribute my success to the
private instruction I've received.
Racing has become a passion for me, and I enjoy sharing my love of the
sport with others. I want to share my driving experience with others who
are following the same path.  My job career has been as a director of
"Fortune500" firms for the past 25 years - my expertise has been in
creating teams of top people who can make things happen. So I have
decided to apply my professional talent to my passion - racing.  I've
assembled some of the most talented and successful race winners to
instruct drivers who want to improve their skills... to teach them how
drive faster, smoother, and safer. In addition to being accomplished
racecar drivers, our instructors have many years' experience coaching
students on racing techniques. Led by Albert Butterfield, a former
instructor and test car driver for Bob Bondurant, our instructors will
provide each student with one-on-one and group coaching. In addition to
improving their driving skills, students will have fun learning. Every
student will leave the course with vastly improved driving skills."
- ---Eileen Thomas, Spec Miata #70
 
 
Who Should Attend:
- --Racecar drivers who want to improve their skills and bring them to
"the next level".
- --Auto enthusiasts who want to dramatically improve their racing skills,
but are not necessarily keen on participating in racing competition.
- --Women who would like to learn how to race, *and* how to apply the
"intimidation factor" that is so natural to men.
- --Newly licensed drivers with high-performance cars.
- --Corporations who wish to hold driving events and special programs.
 
Location:
Reno-Fernley Raceway, Fernley NV
 
Price:
Special introductory rates of $195 per day, $350 for 2 days
 
Dates available:
Friday Oct. 31 - Sunday, Nov. 2
Fri. Dec. 12 - Sat., Dec. 13
2004 schedule to be determined
 
To register or for more information, contact: 
 
Eileen Thomas "E.T."
et@goneracing.com
415 350-4701
 
Please reply privately, (and not to the list), or on the Team3S Racers
list with your questions or comments


- --
To sub:   Email majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of 'subscribe 3sracers'.
To unsub: Email majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of 'unsubscribe 3sracers'
"Ban low performance drivers, not high performance cars."


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:17:35 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brake Flush

Wrong bleeding sequence:

Right Rear, Left front, Left rear, Right front.  It's in the service manual.

Just use fresh brake fluid, no cleaner necessary.

Are you driving on the track?  If not cheap pads should be fine.

Chuck Willis

- -----Original Message-----
From: Danno [mailto:palermod@pilot.msu.edu]
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 9:16 PM
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: Team3S: Brake Flush


And now to finish the job.

I'd like to flush the brake lines.  Does the group recommend merely
using clean brake fluid, or is there a special cleaner that I would put
in the master cylinder to bleed through the lines to flush them clean?

Also, correct me if I don't have this right:  Blead starting from right
rear, to left rear to front right to front left (farthest to nearest the
master cylinder).  Is this right?

As far as pads, I was looking at the R4S, but with all the running
around I've been doing, I have to ask, what about the cheapies?  The
Raybestos or off-brand pads?  What's the down-side to using them?  How
about ceramic pads?

Thanks!

- - Dan
'95 VR4


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:00:26 -0500
From: "Jim Fay" <jfay@tssu.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Brake flush

Don't wish to go against the book, so take with grain of salt.  I change my
brake fluid every year while doing the other fluids.  I just pick the brake
closest to the corner of the car I am working on, so never follow the same
sequence, and have never started the car for the flushings.  Never had a
problem with air in the system or the ABS light comming on.  The pump will
only run if the ABS computer senses a wheel locking or during its self test
after starting the car and moving in forward or reverse over 3 mph.  And in
each case will run only as long as its needed, it does not stay on waiting
for the next locking wheel occurance.  The self test is just a pressure
check, once it makes pressure, it shuts off.

Jim
91 RTTT



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:49:17 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: OT: Learn to race with the Pros! Announcing a new driving school with Pro Instructors

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
> This looks like the sort of thing they have for skiers called a
"breakthrough" school to get you off a plateau in performance.
> Interesting.
> Chuck Willis
- --------------------------->

This is more than a breakthrough - these guys are *magic*.  :-)  They taught
their first student in the school, Donna, at the last 2 area event weekends.
She's half of a husband-wife Vette team (his is a Lingenfelter LT-1 with
650HP, hers a C-5), and they rented her a Honda racecar at Buttonwillow for
two days of instruction.  (In-car coaching, classroom, and lead-follow with 2
cars, incl. ET's Spec Miata).  She liked the Honda so much she bought it.  At
Sears Point this past weekend Donna entered her very first race - ever.  In a
field of 28 cars in SP-2 class, she took FIRST PLACE with a 2:01:50 fastest
lap time!  This lady is FAST.  In way of comparison, I took 8 seconds off my
previous personal best in the VR-4 (2:13), with a lap time of 2:05:16
(100-octane gas, -0.6 camber, 16psi boost, Proxes RA-1's at 38F/33R. Rick
Pierce and I datalogged my first run - NO knock!)  And she was 4 seconds
faster than that!

Personal coaching with these guys really works - I'm a *very* happy man with
my time, too!  I passed almost *everybody* in Group 4 in my "Blue Beast"
Battleship Mitsubishi.  :-)  But I set my brakes on fire twice - not smoke -
fire.  Gotta get a higher-temp compound than R4
Porterfields and get rid of these damned X-drilled rotors...  But stock brakes
DO work fine, if you don't slow down.  ;-)

We're off to Reno this AM to negotiate with the track owner for arrangements
for running the
"Gone Racing" school, and other projects--  "Over and out" for a couple of
days...

- --Forrest



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:57:38 -0500
From: "Gene Calarco" <gac@clifton.ds.adp.com>
Subject: Fw: Team3S: A different question on rotors

Has anyone used Bendix OEM Rotors?  I saw some surplus for about 30.00 a
peice.


Eugene
92' DOHC NT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Calarco" <gac@clifton.ds.adp.com>
To: "Team3S" <Team3S@Team3S.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: A different question on rotors


> So after all the discussion on rotor technology we are still back to
square
> 1.  Science would tell us to use the 108.00 a piece stock Mitsu rotor from
> the dealer over the drilled and slotted HP rotors for 180.00 a piece.
> =================== snip ====================
> Eugene
> 92'DOHC NT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
> To: <Team3S@team3s.com>
> Cc: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: A different question on rotors
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
> >
> >
> > > FWIW. :)
> > > From: http://www.buybrakes.com/brembo/faq.html
> > ---------------------------->
> > LOL!  "FWIW" - ("For what it's worth"), and we all KNOW "what it's
worth"
> that
> > Brembo said it, don't we!?!  Advertisers don't lie.  ;-)  Oh, goody!
> Another
> > vendor selling their own product.  What do you expect them to say?  I
used
> to
> > write advertising copy, so let me break down the TRUE meaning of these
> quotes
> > for all of you..., one sentence at a time, the way the copywriter
> *thinks*--
> > what it "SAYS", and what it "MEANS":   ;-)
> >
> >
> > What it SAYS:   "Brembo has extensively studied and tested
cross-drilling
> > versus casting the holes in place and found no significant effect on
> > performance or durability.":
> > ----------------
> > What it MEANS:   "We saw a 30% failure rate on the track, but since 97%
of
> you
> > will never use these on the track, we don't regard this flaw affecting
3%
> of
> > users to be *significant*.  Most of you won't notice the difference if
our
> > drilled rotors warp when they're heated up, since you'll be killed or
> arrested
> > if you ever run them that hard on the street.  Besides, it would cost us
> too
> > much to make them as good as Porsche cast rotors, and you'd never buy
them
> if
> > we told you that anyway."
> >
> > What it SAYS:   "The main advantages of drilled and slotted discs are
the
> > same: increased brake "bite", and a continuous refreshing of the brake
pad
> > surface."
> > ----------------
> > What it MEANS:   "This is very much to OUR advantage, because drilled
> holes
> > 'gouge' out the surface of the pad as they pass over them.  The
> 'refreshing'
> > of the pad surface means that it wears away more quickly, creating an
> > increasingly thinner pad with each use..., which is also to our
> advantage--
> > The thinner pads will become hot much sooner, causing them to crack and
> > crumble prematurely.  Thusly, you'll have to buy our pads more
frequently,
> > making us more money."
> >
> > What it SAYS:   "Drilled discs have the additional advantage of being
> lighter
> > and running cooler."
> > ----------------
> > What it MEANS:   "We use less material in our drilled rotors, which
saves
> us a
> > great deal of money.  As long as the brakes are not applied, air passing
> over
> > the lesser-mass rotor will keep it cooler, when compared to an undrilled
> rotor
> > at full mass.  Conversely, they will also heat up faster, since there is
> less
> > metal to absorb heat, but we don't see the need to discuss that, since
> then
> > you won't buy our product."
> >
> > What it SAYS:   "However, there are certain pad materials that should
not
> be
> > used with a drilled disc."
> > ----------------
> > What it MEANS:   "We have to cover our ass here--  if you buy the pads
we
> > recommend for the street and you use them on the track, they will fail
> rather
> > quickly.  In fact, so will most of the track pads we sell as premium
> products.
> > BUT, if you are willing to spend the $300 each for the custom-made
> > diamond-carborundum +++ pads we recommend for extreme applications, you
> *may*
> > get the same results we did in our testing sample.  Or not."
> >
> > What it SAYS:   "Braking generates heat, and the more heat the disc can
> absorb
> > and dissipate, the greater the fade resistance of the system."
> > ----------------
> > What it MEANS:   "This happens to be true, but we're not saying that it
> > applies to our product - it's just a general fact.  What we're telling
you
> > here is that our lower-mass rotor will absorb less heat, but you
probably
> > think that's a good thing, since we threw in this unrelated factoid.
> We're
> > banking on the fact that you're as dumb as a rock, and that you can't
> fathom
> > the significance of what we say - as long as we use the right buzzwords
to
> > hypnotize you.  You'll believe *anything* we tell you, as long as there
is
> > water splashing or dust flying off the wheels in our commercials."
> >
> > What it SAYS:   "Additionally, the use of a larger disc generally
results
> in a
> > larger effective radius, which increases brake torque."
> >
> > ----------------
> > What it MEANS:   "This really has nothing to do with the topic at hand,
> but...
> > We've got to plant the subliminal seed of (whisper) *Upgrade,
upgrade...*
> in
> > your tiny little brain.  You haven't a clue if 'increasing brake torque'
> is a
> > good thing, but it sounds 'bigger', so dammit - we know you'll buy it.
> You
> > also don't have the deductive powers to recognize that 'generally' can
be
> as
> > little as '51% of the time', which means that in the extreme case, 49%
of
> the
> > time the use of a larger disc will NOT result in a larger effective
> radius.
> > And you don't know if that is a good thing either, but since we said it,
> you
> > can trust us."
> > ---
> >
> > "Caveat Emptor", people...  ("Let the buyer beware").
> >
> > Although I wrote the above commentary somewhat "tongue-in-cheek", I'm
> really
> > telling you the facts about how a copywriter thinks.  I can't remember
> which
> > famous "ad man" said it - it was either Bill Bernbach (Doyle Dane
> Bernbach) or
> > Jerry Della Femina (Young & Rubicam) - but it is THE truth about that
> > business:  "Advertising is all about selling a product that people don't
> want,
> > don't need, and can't afford.  And making them feel good after they've
> bought
> > it, whether it's useful or not."  Advertisers CAN and WILL say
*anything*
> to
> > sell their product, including throwing a bunch of twisted facts at you
> until
> > you only see the buzzwords, not the meaning.  If the above quotes are
the
> best
> > Brembo can do, that cross-drilled, non-cast rotor must *really* suck.
> IMHO...
> > ;-)
> >
> > Over and out...
> >
> > Forrest
> >
> >
> >
> > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:11:05 -0800
From: "Ken Middaugh" <kmiddaugh@ixpres.com>
Subject: Team3S: Slow boost, was:  Did another datalog...

Hi Bob,

Slow boost has been my nemisis too ever since my rebuild 22 months ago.  My
13G's wouldn't reach 1.00 kg/cm^^2  until 4200 RPM in 3rd, and wouldn't even
come close in 1st or 2nd, usually .75 to .80.  I searched and elimiated
boost leaks, tried leaning out fuel, etc but nothing helped.  I got the same
results without a cat, and even without a downpipe (I'm sure my neighbors
enjoyed those test runs!)

In another attempt to fix my slow spool, I ordered the MAF-T/LS6 maf combo
from Ryan (see threads on 3si.org) the week before last.  Upon installation,
I immediatly noticed faster spool times, but obviously needed fuel tuning.
After tuning it, my spool times were slow once again.  After discovering and
correcting an incorrect "mode" setting on the maf-t, I began to retune.  I
finally figured out that upon initial installation, my improved spool-up
times occured because I was running very rich.  During retuning, I richened
up the hi 3000 rpm setting on my SAFC.  It worked!  Now I hit 1.00 in 1st
and 2nd, and around 3200 in 3rd!

Try some richer settings in the 3000 RPM range to see if that helps your
spool-up times.

With the maf-t/ls5 maf, my hi settings are much leaner than before, although
my O2 voltages are higher.  They run from .98 to 1.00, whereas before, I
tuned to .94 to .96.  Below are my current settings, although I'm still
fine-tuning:

RPM        Lo        Hi
1000        -20        -35
2000        -29        -32
2500        -29        -32
3000        -31        -16
4000        -28        -33
5000        -28        -41
6000        -28        -41
7000        -28        -41

Mods:  MHI 13G's, maf-t/ls6 maf with 8" K&N air filter, RC 550 cc injectors,
Supra fuel pump, Eric Gross fuel pump rewire, SAFC, SAVC-R, gutted precats,
Melton downpipe, high-flow cat, stock cat-back exhaust.

Good luck Bob,
Ken

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 3:03 PM
Subject: Team3S: Did another datalog...


> I did a couple of 2nd gear pulls and a couple in 3rd - mostly to ~6k (one
up
> to 6300, none to redline).
>
> I changed the A/F settings on the SAFC-II according to the numbers I gave
> Damon a while back (see below my sig), and the low throttle point was at
10%
> and the high *was* at 50%.  Still the same sucky results, although the car
> feels OK.  There's a lag still, and the boost seems to come on late, but
> strong - right up to 1 bar.  See what you can tell from the numbers,
please...



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:16:24 -0800
From: "James Mutton" <james@playstream.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fuel Pressure and AFR

Good point.  I don't have an answer off the top of my head, and work
isn't as slow today as it was Friday. ;)  My calculations didn't take
into account the "actual" fuel pressure that would be in the lines from
a 1:1 rising rate fuel pressure regulator, they were more like "all
things being equal what would change if fuel pressure alone changes"
calculations.  I'd suggest that I'm incorrect as to the amount of pulse
width required since the pressure in the lines is likely to be 14 psi
more at low rpms.  Still it should come as no surprise to any of use
that the stock fuel system is inadequate of our fuel up to the maximum
output of stock turbos.

- -James
95 Green VR4
With DSM 450s sitting on the shelf for over a year. :(


- -----Original Message-----
From: Ken Stanton [mailto:ken.c.stanton@usa.net]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 5:53 PM
To: James Mutton; Team3S List (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel Pressure and AFR


Great mathematical breakdown James!

Now, considering the time available:
rev      1 min       1 cycle       cycle                    rpm
cycle
- ---  *  ------  *  -------- =  -------        ==>  ------- = ------
min     60 sec       2 rev          sec                      120
sec

Inverting this result gives sec (or ms here) per cycle.  For each 1000
rpm
block:

1000 rpm = 120ms
2000 rpm = 60ms
3000 rpm = 40ms
4000 rpm = 30ms
5000 rpm = 24ms
6000 rpm = 20ms
7000 rpm = 17ms

So, from your statement indicating that we need 46.5ms to supply enough
fuel to get the desired AFR, even at 100% duty cycle we're falling short
above ~2500 rpm.  Is one of us grossly miscalculating, or does airflow
fall off dramatically at higher rpm's maybe?

Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT
Starving for afuelsystem



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:10:32 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE-  Oil squirters causing Spun bearings  (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)

Ya..I hear this on every list im on for all sorts of car types.

Its called age.


On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Ken Stanton wrote:

> It seems everyone dances around this statement directly, but which motors
> (years, models) are we suspecting exactly?
>
> I have a '91 that I'm trying to diagnose a low oil pressure issue with.
>  It -occasionally- starts up warm with no pressure, but after a quick rev of
> the engine pulls up to normal.  No other issues.  Also, this problem is
> minimized/nearly eliminated by using Valv MaxLife oil.
>
> Ken Stanton
> 91 Pearl White Stealth TT
> Under Pressure
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
> To: "'John Monnin'" <john.monnin@comcast.net>; <Team3S@team3s.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 7:31 PM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
> engine needed)
>
>
> > Yah, I actually just finished reading Magnus's webpage...  They compared
> > a 93 block which has the same crank and rods as the 95+ 2nd gen motor.
> > This is referred to as a 7 bolt DSM motor (7 bolts on the crank to
> > flywheel interface)...  Older DSM motors, 89-92.5, are referred to as 6
> > bolts or "big rod" motors...  The rods are huge in comparison, all of
> > the bearing journals are huge, rod bearings and crank bearings are
> > giant, and, on top of all of that, they use the same type of oil
> > squirters as you saw on that '93 block...  It's really a damn near
> > bulletproof motor from the factory....  Now, however, from reading what
> > they had to say, I agree entirely with their statements...  Assuming
> > this can be an issue with the 3/S turbo motor oil squirters, then it is
> > definitely worth looking into...  I really think it's a piss poor design
> > really, "hmmm, lets pull oil from the part that needs it the most..."
> >
> > And yes, I knew of the oil passages in the rods for the piston bore
> > walls, but, as you mentioned, these are not for cooling of the piston
> > itself...
> >
> > -Cody
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
> > Behalf
> > > Of John Monnin
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 1:05 PM
> > > To: 'cody'; Team3S@team3s.com
> > > Subject: RE: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
> > > Turbo engine needed)
> > >
> > > Cody:
> > >
> > > I just double checked a TT rod (same part number as NA Rod),  It does
> > > not have a check valve, BUT it definitely has a passage from the main
> > > rod bearing to an orifice that squirts on the piston.  The rod bearing
> > > has a hole in it that lines up with this passage.
> > >
> > > Below is a picture of a TT rod and piston below a GN Rod.  Look on the
> > > bottom side (relative to this picture) of the rod, the small bump is
> > the
> > > orifice opening, it points more to the cylinder wall than to the
> > piston.
> > >
> > > http://www.monninengineering.com/images/RodComparison.JPG
> > >
> > >
> > > The lack of check valve destroys my theory that they might be failing
> > on
> > > NAs but I am stubborn enough to question if the squirters may bleed
> > off
> > > too much oil if the oil pump is a little too worn.  I am also stubborn
> > > enough to still question the main bearings because each main bearing
> > oil
> > > supply is shared with at least 1 oil squirter.  The 2 center main
> > > bearing journals supply 2 oil squirters.  On my engine it was a center
> > > main bearing that looked the worst.  See my webpage, first picture at
> > > top to see main bearings worn too far.
> > >
> > > http://johnmonnin.netfirms.com/4boltPictures.html
> > >
> > >
> > > Just for reference this is a picture of the oil squirters in the block
> > >
> > > http://www.monninengineering.com/images/OilSquirter.JPG
> > >
> > > My personal experience was when I tore my TT engine apart (timing belt
> > > jumped) the Rods bearings looked perfect but most of my main journal
> > > bearings had too much wear and one main journal was very close to a
> > > failure
> > > These bearings only had 86,000 miles on it,  At least 50,000 of those
> > > miles were with synthetic oil changes every 2500 miles and with my
> > wife
> > > driving it almost exclusively and she is a very calm driver
> > > I bought this car at a dealer with only 36,000 miles on it and the
> > > condition of the rest of the car suggested to me that that the
> > original
> > > owner took very good care of it before I bought it.
> > >
> > > To me it is completely unacceptable for a well maintained modern car
> > to
> > > have this kind of bearing wear.  I originally assumed that there was
> > > some kind of oil contamination or OEM bearing clearance problem but I
> > > have seen enough  people spins bearing that I am convinced that the
> > > oiling system on these engines do not have enough of a safety factor
> > > built in.   2 NA's developed rod knock during the NG04 Road course
> > > alone, this just irritates me.
> > >
> > > P.S.  From the pictures it looks like 1st and 2nd gen DSMs bearings
> > are
> > > the same, but I am not sure so I emailed Magnus Motorsports to find
> > out.
> > > I'll let you know what I find out.
> > >
> > > John Monnin
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >From: cody [mailto:overclck@satx.rr.com]
> > > >Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 12:31 PM
> > > >To: 'John Monnin'; Team3S@team3s.com
> > > >Subject: RE: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was
> > 1991
> > > >Turbo engine needed)
> > >
> > > >Oil squirters are not in the rods, but in the block, hopefully that's
> > > >just a confusion...  IMHO, the design of the crank journals and the
> > > >diameters and widths of the journals are what causes crankwalk in the
> > > 2g
> > > >DSM cars...  Although it may be oil supply related, I don't think
> > > that's
> > > >where to look...
> > >
> > > -Cody
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >
> >
> >
> > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>

- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:15:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: OT: Learn to race with the Pros! Announcing a new driving school with Pro Instructors

> fire.  Gotta get a higher-temp compound than R4
- ---
Correction..you dont have a temp issue, you have a size issue.

1600d pads overheating with one pad, will still overheat with another
1600d pad (and thats damn hot).

You'll end up buying a higher friction pad..and you'll trade off with
buying rotors like you do brake pads.


> Porterfields and get rid of these damned X-drilled rotors...  But stock brakes
> DO work fine, if you don't slow down.  ;-)
>
> We're off to Reno this AM to negotiate with the track owner for arrangements
> for running the
> "Gone Racing" school, and other projects--  "Over and out" for a couple of
> days...
>
> --Forrest
>
>
>
> --
> To sub:   Email majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of 'subscribe 3sracers'.
> To unsub: Email majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of 'unsubscribe 3sracers'
> "Ban low performance drivers, not high performance cars."
>

- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:11:54 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: Brake Bleeding

Funny how there's already a thread about bleed order and running the engine or not...

I've had a problem the last 3 times I've bled my brakes.  The first time, I thought it was my fault.  The second time, I thought it was because I was at the track driving the crap out of the car.  Now, with the third time, I don't think it's a coincidence.

After bleeding my brakes and then driving for 50-300mi, the cap on my brake fluid reservoir pops off.  Not "flies off to the nether regions of the engine bay," but "pops loose from the threads and allows brake fluid to slosh about, eventually making its way down to my power steering pump/belt and making it squeak."

The last two times (and I was pretty sure the first time, too) I've been extra careful to make sure the cap was fully tightened and hadn't skipped any threads.  Therefore, I have to conclude that something is causing a pressure buildup in the reservoir and popping the cap off.  Once it pops off and I retighten it, it never pops off again until I bleed the brakes again.

The only thing I can come up with is that the last 3 times (I know for sure, and it may be more times than that) I bled the brakes, I *didn't* start the engine.  Mainly, this was because I was in my garage and didn't want to breathe exhaust fumes while bleeding the brakes.  Perhaps the reason for running the engine isn't because it engages the ABS electronics, but that it provides brake boost and allows greater braking pressure. 

Does that even make sense?  --that if you bleed the brakes with the engine off and then seal the system, the pressures generated in the braking system with the engine running will cause a pressure build-up in the reservoir and be able to pop the cap off?

Any ideas as to what's going on here?  Next time I bleed the brakes, I will certainly do it with the engine on and keep a close eye on the reservoir cap...

In case it matters, I have stock calipers/rotors, speed bleeders, R4S pads, and ATE Super Blue fluid.

- --Erik
'95 VR-4  www.team3s.com/~egross




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:26:53 +0000
From: mjannusch@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fuel Pressure and AFR

> Still it should come as no surprise to any of use
> that the stock fuel system is inadequate of our
> fuel up to the maximum output of stock turbos.

It is really only the pump that's a weak link with stock turbos.  If you upgrade the pump, you are good to go for as much air as the stock turbos will flow (which isn't much).

I wouldn't flaw the whole system at that level of upgrades.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:30:04 -0800
From: "Gizmo" <kdmorg@comcast.net>
Subject: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!

Hi guys/ladies,

Some months ago I asked about an AWD Automatic tranny to convert from the
FWD auto I now have. This is what I learned.

"Mitsubishi made 3 different auto 3000GT models. A N/A auto 2WD and a AWD
N/A
auto. The third being the Turbo AWD model.
All three would exist as used imports in NZ.
Mitsubishi also make a Diamante AWD with auto and some Lancer Evo 7 GT-A
with autos and turbo AWD." (thanks to Lloyd in New Zealand!)

It may be possible to find a Diamante in the States with the proper tranny!
Then all I need is the rear differential assembly and drive shaft.

As far as the suggestion that I may need to do some frame work....Well, what
is that driveline tunnel for? Did they actually make a different frame for
each model? That would not be economical.

Any thoughts on this?

Regards,

Keith Morgavi (diseased old fart)



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:39:04 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE-  Oil squirters causing Spun bearings  (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)

They did a poll on the 3SI.org site a while ago and that seemed to show 1st gen cars
were affected more --- I don't remember the results but I'd guess the number of people
responding was limited. To be statistically significant I'd think you would need several
hundred examples and I know there was nowhere near that.

In the case of no pressure at start I'd suspect the sending unit --- does the oil pressure
light come on also ???

         Jim Berry
====================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
To: <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)


> It seems everyone dances around this statement directly, but which motors
> (years, models) are we suspecting exactly?
>
> I have a '91 that I'm trying to diagnose a low oil pressure issue with.
>  It -occasionally- starts up warm with no pressure, but after a quick rev of
> the engine pulls up to normal.  No other issues.  Also, this problem is
> minimized/nearly eliminated by using Valv MaxLife oil.




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:42:31 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!

>
>It may be possible to find a Diamante in the States with the proper tranny!
>Then all I need is the rear differential assembly and drive shaft.
>As far as the suggestion that I may need to do some frame work....Well, what
>is that driveline tunnel for? Did they actually make a different frame for
>each model? That would not be economical.
>
Having spent considerable time under my VR4, I can say this: The transfer
case is not supported by anything other than the transmission case. No
brackets needed there.
The driveshaft is supported by a big fat bracket about three ft back that
should be readily available at a junkyard. If the holes are present in your
frame, it should bolt up.

I can't tell you about the rear end supports.

Rich/still shiftless old poop


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:04:16 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE-  Oil squirters causing Spun bearings  (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
>
> I don't remember why, but I do remember them saying "don't cross drill, that
> will not resolve the problem".
>
> That's just what I remember reading.

I found the artical I was refering to and as expected they thought their finding
would change the world of racing --- at least 944's
http://www.huntleyracing.com/cranks_special_info.htm


I queried a HPO engine builder on the cross drilling and his response
is copied below.

Hmm,
Just read the article the guy wrote.  Either the article is old, or he is a
little behind the times.  Cross-drilling has been around for a long time,
when the issue first came up, everybody thought it was the magic bullet that
would cure all bearing problems, we now know that it is not.  Don't get me
wrong, cross-drilling does address a very real issue, as a matter of fact, in
the domestic V-8 world, it is generally assumed that any hi-po racing crank
will be cross-drilled, however, cross-drilling is not the answer to all our
problems.  Cross-drilled cranks can and do regularly fail at the bearings,
plus, in the past year or so, I've been reading a lot about problems with
cross-drilled cranks on street driven machines.  This is a controversial
issue, but the most recent concessus is: race-only motors get cross-drilled,
street/strip motors should not be cross-drilled.  Keep in mine, this thinking
applies to V-8's that stay under 7000 rpm on the street, what happens to an
8000 rpm street motor?  I do know that two years ago, if you bought a high $
racing crank, it came cross-drilled, you had no choice, now, most of the
major crank builders give you the option to have it drilled or not.  I also
know that cross-drilling a crank improperly will lead to immediate failure,
and that it is hard to do properly, so if you do have it done, make sure you
trust the shop doing the work.

If it was my motor, I'm not sure what I would do.  You risk a lot by being
one of the first guys to try it on a 6G72 motor (a bearing failure is one
thing, but a crank that fractures at the cross-drill at 8000 rpm is another
thing), on the other hand, it might solve your problems.  Weighing all the
evidence, I'd probably take my chances with a properly prepped and
blueprinted crank without cross-drilling.  Sounds like you have found a
high-quality machine shop, I'd ask them, and go with what they recommend. 
Tough choice though.            Cyrus

        Jim Berry



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:10:57 -0500
From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE-  Oil squirters causing Spun bearings  (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)

Yes, I am -sure- there is no oil pressure.  The light comes on, and even if
the gauge and the light didn't work, the car knocks like a sumnabitch.  I
rev it quick, its gone.  If this is so, any thougths as to why the MaxLife
oil would help sooooo much?  With Mobil1 I -never- have oil pressure on warm
starts.

Ken

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
To: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>; <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)


> They did a poll on the 3SI.org site a while ago and that seemed to show
1st gen cars
> were affected more --- I don't remember the results but I'd guess the
number of people
> responding was limited. To be statistically significant I'd think you
would need several
> hundred examples and I know there was nowhere near that.
>
> In the case of no pressure at start I'd suspect the sending unit --- does
the oil pressure
> light come on also ???
>
>          Jim Berry
> ====================================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
> To: <Team3S@team3s.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
Turbo engine needed)
>
>
> > It seems everyone dances around this statement directly, but which
motors
> > (years, models) are we suspecting exactly?
> >
> > I have a '91 that I'm trying to diagnose a low oil pressure issue with.
> >  It -occasionally- starts up warm with no pressure, but after a quick
rev of
> > the engine pulls up to normal.  No other issues.  Also, this problem is
> > minimized/nearly eliminated by using Valv MaxLife oil.
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:06:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE-  Oil squirters causing Spun bearings  (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)

Its thicker when cold..simple.

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Ken Stanton wrote:

> Yes, I am -sure- there is no oil pressure.  The light comes on, and even if
> the gauge and the light didn't work, the car knocks like a sumnabitch.  I
> rev it quick, its gone.  If this is so, any thougths as to why the MaxLife
> oil would help sooooo much?  With Mobil1 I -never- have oil pressure on warm
> starts.
>
> Ken
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
> To: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>; <Team3S@team3s.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
> engine needed)
>
>
> > They did a poll on the 3SI.org site a while ago and that seemed to show
> 1st gen cars
> > were affected more --- I don't remember the results but I'd guess the
> number of people
> > responding was limited. To be statistically significant I'd think you
> would need several
> > hundred examples and I know there was nowhere near that.
> >
> > In the case of no pressure at start I'd suspect the sending unit --- does
> the oil pressure
> > light come on also ???
> >
> >          Jim Berry
> > ====================================================
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
> > To: <Team3S@team3s.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
> Turbo engine needed)
> >
> >
> > > It seems everyone dances around this statement directly, but which
> motors
> > > (years, models) are we suspecting exactly?
> > >
> > > I have a '91 that I'm trying to diagnose a low oil pressure issue with.
> > >  It -occasionally- starts up warm with no pressure, but after a quick
> rev of
> > > the engine pulls up to normal.  No other issues.  Also, this problem is
> > > minimized/nearly eliminated by using Valv MaxLife oil.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>

- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:51:40 -0500
From: "anthonymelillo" <anthonymelillo@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: any such thing as r/c 3000GT

Does anyone know if there is a R/C 3000GT or GTO available anywhere ?

I have built the Tamiya GTO plastic model.  But would really like to build a R/C to match my 97 VR-4.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks
Tony



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:28:42 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!

Can you share your reason for wanting an automatic transmission in an AWD? Only one I could come up with is if the driver is paraplegic (not a joke - we have some very talented drivers in this category).

Chuck Willis

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gizmo [mailto:kdmorg@comcast.net]
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 2:30 PM
To: T3S mailingl (E-mail)
Subject: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!


Hi guys/ladies,

Some months ago I asked about an AWD Automatic tranny to convert from the
FWD auto I now have. This is what I learned.

"Mitsubishi made 3 different auto 3000GT models. A N/A auto 2WD and a AWD
N/A
auto. The third being the Turbo AWD model.
All three would exist as used imports in NZ.
Mitsubishi also make a Diamante AWD with auto and some Lancer Evo 7 GT-A
with autos and turbo AWD." (thanks to Lloyd in New Zealand!)

It may be possible to find a Diamante in the States with the proper tranny!
Then all I need is the rear differential assembly and drive shaft.

As far as the suggestion that I may need to do some frame work....Well, what
is that driveline tunnel for? Did they actually make a different frame for
each model? That would not be economical.

Any thoughts on this?

Regards,

Keith Morgavi (diseased old fart)



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:59:28 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: OT: Learn to race with the Pros! Announcing a new driving school with Pro Instructors

Must be operator error old timer --- I was running 2:05's last year with no brake
problems. R4 pads with Porterfield non cryo treated rotors and Big Reds --- no
flames, no fade.

        Jim Berry
==============================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Instructors


> Personal coaching with these guys really works - I'm a *very* happy man with
> my time, too!  I passed almost *everybody* in Group 4 in my "Blue Beast"
> Battleship Mitsubishi.  :-)  But I set my brakes on fire twice - not smoke -
> fire.  Gotta get a higher-temp compound than R4
> Porterfields and get rid of these damned X-drilled rotors...  But stock brakes
> DO work fine, if you don't slow down.  ;-)




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:48:24 -0600
From: "purdaddy" <purdaddy@associatedsys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!

Don't shoot me, but don't autos hold boost better (as in, don't take a
long to shift so precious built-up boost isn't lost through blow off)?
And you could then power brake and build boost for launches like Turbo
Regals/GN's/Syclone/Typhoon's.

Or, you could also be lazy or get tired of shifting. Or, you just can't
drive a stick w/o whacking clutches and internals.
Ok, those last two may be off topic.

-Patrick


- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Willis, Charles E.
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:29 PM
To: kdmorg@comcast.net; T3S mailingl (E-mail)
Subject: RE: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!


Can you share your reason for wanting an automatic transmission in an
AWD? Only one I could come up with is if the driver is paraplegic (not a
joke - we have some very talented drivers in this category).

Chuck Willis

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gizmo [mailto:kdmorg@comcast.net]
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 2:30 PM
To: T3S mailingl (E-mail)
Subject: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!


Hi guys/ladies,

Some months ago I asked about an AWD Automatic tranny to convert from
the FWD auto I now have. This is what I learned.

"Mitsubishi made 3 different auto 3000GT models. A N/A auto 2WD and a
AWD N/A auto. The third being the Turbo AWD model. All three would exist
as used imports in NZ. Mitsubishi also make a Diamante AWD with auto and
some Lancer Evo 7 GT-A with autos and turbo AWD." (thanks to Lloyd in
New Zealand!)

It may be possible to find a Diamante in the States with the proper
tranny! Then all I need is the rear differential assembly and drive
shaft.

As far as the suggestion that I may need to do some frame work....Well,
what is that driveline tunnel for? Did they actually make a different
frame for each model? That would not be economical.

Any thoughts on this?

Regards,

Keith Morgavi (diseased old fart)




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:41:17 +0000
From: mjannusch@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!

> Don't shoot me, but don't autos hold boost better (as
> in, don't take a long to shift so precious built-up
> boost isn't lost through blow off)?  And you could
> then power brake and build boost for launches like
> Turbo Regals/GN's/Syclone/Typhoon's.

Could do that just as easily with a two-step/stutterbox/clutch-cut.  An MSD ignition box would get you there (or an AEM EMS, or EFI Systems PMS, or......)

I doubt any of those stock auto AWD trannies would hold up to much powerbraking without heavy modifications.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:34:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: OT: Learn to race with the Pros! Announcing a new driving school with Pro Instructors

Different track.

The new ashpalt is a tad slower, and turn1 is sorta different with a new
hump in it.

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, fastmax wrote:

> Must be operator error old timer --- I was running 2:05's last year with no brake
> problems. R4 pads with Porterfield non cryo treated rotors and Big Reds --- no
> flames, no fade.
>
>         Jim Berry
> ==============================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
> Instructors
>
>
> > Personal coaching with these guys really works - I'm a *very* happy man with
> > my time, too!  I passed almost *everybody* in Group 4 in my "Blue Beast"
> > Battleship Mitsubishi.  :-)  But I set my brakes on fire twice - not smoke -
> > fire.  Gotta get a higher-temp compound than R4
> > Porterfields and get rid of these damned X-drilled rotors...  But stock brakes
> > DO work fine, if you don't slow down.  ;-)
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>

- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:37:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!

But..a AWD auto under boost will be a pretty weak tranny, just too many
things goin on compared to a much simpler and stronger rwd or fwd.

The typhhon had the advantage of an Xfer case witha standard strong
tranny.

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, purdaddy wrote:

> Don't shoot me, but don't autos hold boost better (as in, don't take a
> long to shift so precious built-up boost isn't lost through blow off)?
> And you could then power brake and build boost for launches like Turbo
> Regals/GN's/Syclone/Typhoon's.
>
> Or, you could also be lazy or get tired of shifting. Or, you just can't
> drive a stick w/o whacking clutches and internals.
> Ok, those last two may be off topic.
>
> -Patrick
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
> Of Willis, Charles E.
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:29 PM
> To: kdmorg@comcast.net; T3S mailingl (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!
>
>
> Can you share your reason for wanting an automatic transmission in an
> AWD? Only one I could come up with is if the driver is paraplegic (not a
> joke - we have some very talented drivers in this category).
>
> Chuck Willis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gizmo [mailto:kdmorg@comcast.net]
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 2:30 PM
> To: T3S mailingl (E-mail)
> Subject: Team3S: A definitive answer to my old question!
>
>
> Hi guys/ladies,
>
> Some months ago I asked about an AWD Automatic tranny to convert from
> the FWD auto I now have. This is what I learned.
>
> "Mitsubishi made 3 different auto 3000GT models. A N/A auto 2WD and a
> AWD N/A auto. The third being the Turbo AWD model. All three would exist
> as used imports in NZ. Mitsubishi also make a Diamante AWD with auto and
> some Lancer Evo 7 GT-A with autos and turbo AWD." (thanks to Lloyd in
> New Zealand!)
>
> It may be possible to find a Diamante in the States with the proper
> tranny! Then all I need is the rear differential assembly and drive
> shaft.
>
> As far as the suggestion that I may need to do some frame work....Well,
> what is that driveline tunnel for? Did they actually make a different
> frame for each model? That would not be economical.
>
> Any thoughts on this?
>
> Regards,
>
> Keith Morgavi (diseased old fart)
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>

- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:10:02 -0500
From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE-  Oil squirters causing Spun bearings  (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)

Mohler!

What an insult to my intelligence!  Do you think I'm a bonehead or what?
I'm smart enough to understand what weight of oils is about, so I'll be more
explicit this time.

MaxLife is the -ONLY- oil that removes (masks) my oil pressure problem.  Not
natural 5c/qt oil, not mid grade natural, no blends, no pure syns, and not
Mobil1.  0w-30 or 10w-50 i've had them all.

Ken
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Cc: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>; <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)


> Its thicker when cold..simple.
>
> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Ken Stanton wrote:
>
> > Yes, I am -sure- there is no oil pressure.  The light comes on, and even
if
> > the gauge and the light didn't work, the car knocks like a sumnabitch.
I
> > rev it quick, its gone.  If this is so, any thougths as to why the
MaxLife
> > oil would help sooooo much?  With Mobil1 I -never- have oil pressure on
warm
> > starts.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
> > To: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>; <Team3S@team3s.com>
> > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
Turbo
> > engine needed)
> >
> >
> > > They did a poll on the 3SI.org site a while ago and that seemed to
show
> > 1st gen cars
> > > were affected more --- I don't remember the results but I'd guess the
> > number of people
> > > responding was limited. To be statistically significant I'd think you
> > would need several
> > > hundred examples and I know there was nowhere near that.
> > >
> > > In the case of no pressure at start I'd suspect the sending unit ---
does
> > the oil pressure
> > > light come on also ???
> > >
> > >          Jim Berry
> > > ====================================================
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
> > > To: <Team3S@team3s.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:39 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
> > Turbo engine needed)
> > >
> > >
> > > > It seems everyone dances around this statement directly, but which
> > motors
> > > > (years, models) are we suspecting exactly?
> > > >
> > > > I have a '91 that I'm trying to diagnose a low oil pressure issue
with.
> > > >  It -occasionally- starts up warm with no pressure, but after a
quick
> > rev of
> > > > the engine pulls up to normal.  No other issues.  Also, this problem
is
> > > > minimized/nearly eliminated by using Valv MaxLife oil.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> > >
> >
> >
> > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >
>
> ---
> www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
> Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
> parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
> Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
> "If its in stock, we have it!"
>
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:22:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE-  Oil squirters causing Spun bearings  (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)

Im not insulting you..its still THAT simple.

It has more resistance to flow when cold.

Who knows what they put in there..but thats whats goin on.

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Ken Stanton wrote:

> Mohler!
>
> What an insult to my intelligence!  Do you think I'm a bonehead or what?
> I'm smart enough to understand what weight of oils is about, so I'll be more
> explicit this time.
>
> MaxLife is the -ONLY- oil that removes (masks) my oil pressure problem.  Not
> natural 5c/qt oil, not mid grade natural, no blends, no pure syns, and not
> Mobil1.  0w-30 or 10w-50 i've had them all.
>
> Ken
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> To: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
> Cc: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>; <Team3S@team3s.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:06 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
> engine needed)
>
>
> > Its thicker when cold..simple.
> >
> > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Ken Stanton wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, I am -sure- there is no oil pressure.  The light comes on, and even
> if
> > > the gauge and the light didn't work, the car knocks like a sumnabitch.
> I
> > > rev it quick, its gone.  If this is so, any thougths as to why the
> MaxLife
> > > oil would help sooooo much?  With Mobil1 I -never- have oil pressure on
> warm
> > > starts.
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
> > > To: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>; <Team3S@team3s.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:39 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
> Turbo
> > > engine needed)
> > >
> > >
> > > > They did a poll on the 3SI.org site a while ago and that seemed to
> show
> > > 1st gen cars
> > > > were affected more --- I don't remember the results but I'd guess the
> > > number of people
> > > > responding was limited. To be statistically significant I'd think you
> > > would need several
> > > > hundred examples and I know there was nowhere near that.
> > > >
> > > > In the case of no pressure at start I'd suspect the sending unit ---
> does
> > > the oil pressure
> > > > light come on also ???
> > > >
> > > >          Jim Berry
> > > > ====================================================
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
> > > > To: <Team3S@team3s.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:39 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
> > > Turbo engine needed)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > It seems everyone dances around this statement directly, but which
> > > motors
> > > > > (years, models) are we suspecting exactly?
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a '91 that I'm trying to diagnose a low oil pressure issue
> with.
> > > > >  It -occasionally- starts up warm with no pressure, but after a
> quick
> > > rev of
> > > > > the engine pulls up to normal.  No other issues.  Also, this problem
> is
> > > > > minimized/nearly eliminated by using Valv MaxLife oil.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> > >
> >
> > ---
> > www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
> > Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
> > parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
> > Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
> > "If its in stock, we have it!"
> >
> >
>

- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:43:27 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE-  Oil squirters causing Spun bearings  (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)

I find it a little hard to believe that Maxlife is the only oil that has the thermal
stability required --- he said warm starts, not cold.

        Jim Berry
========================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Cc: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>; <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)


> Im not insulting you..its still THAT simple.
>
> It has more resistance to flow when cold.
>
> Who knows what they put in there..but thats whats goin on.
>
> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Ken Stanton wrote:
>
> > Mohler!
> >
> > What an insult to my intelligence!  Do you think I'm a bonehead or what?
> > I'm smart enough to understand what weight of oils is about, so I'll be more
> > explicit this time.
> >
> > MaxLife is the -ONLY- oil that removes (masks) my oil pressure problem.  Not
> > natural 5c/qt oil, not mid grade natural, no blends, no pure syns, and not
> > Mobil1.  0w-30 or 10w-50 i've had them all.
> >




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #285
***************************************