Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Sunday, October 26
2003 Volume 02 : Number
284
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:36:40 -0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Tranny Q II
We determined that the output shaft seal on my 6
speed Getrag was leaking,
so we pulled the tranny. Kormex sent me a new
seal, and we put the seal in
today.
Alas, we discovered the output
shaft now has about 1/16 in. play in it. You
can grab the shaft, pull it in
and out, and it goes, "snick, snick." We
bolted the transfer case up to the
tranny, and it did not take up the
slack. It still goes "snick, snick." It
did not snick when the tranny was
in the car, but it does it now. The four of
us could not think of anything
we did whilst replacing the seal that would
cause such play. We simply
popped off the bell housing, installed the seal,
and put it back together.
Kormex of course was closed today, and can't
take questions until Monday.
How nice.
So, faced with the choice of
waiting until Monday to call Kormex and lose
the entire weekend, we shot some
digital video of the tranny snicking and
put it back in the car. I'll
probably have the car back on the road by
Wednesday.
In the
meantime...
1. Is 1/16 of play normal?
2. Is it dangerous?
3. Is
excessive play covered by the Kormex warranty?
4. What effect will this play
have on driving, shifting, leaking, etc?
The last thing I want to do is
take that sumbitch tranny out for the 3rd
time. I think I'd rather just
inform Kormex that it's snicking, and drive
it until it breaks. Replacing
this particular tranny has become a
^%&King
ORDEAL!!
Advice?
Rich/shiftless old poop
94 VR4
w/new Kormex tranny
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:29:42
-0400
From: "Danno" <
palermod@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: Ahhhhhhhhhh!
Well after having Lentz tell me they couldn't turn
my rotors I decided
to get unlazy and just pull them myself. Took them
down to Pep Boys and
there was PLENTY of rotor left. I suspected as
much. I had them turn
them - $8 each!
Ahhhhhhh- high speed
shimmy all gone! Now we'll see how long they last.
Thanks to all
who responded to my rotor query.
- - Dan
'95 VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:15:51
-0400
From: "Danno" <
palermod@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: Brake Flush
And now to finish the job.
I'd like to flush
the brake lines. Does the group recommend merely
using clean brake
fluid, or is there a special cleaner that I would put
in the master cylinder
to bleed through the lines to flush them clean?
Also, correct me if I
don't have this right: Blead starting from right
rear, to left rear to
front right to front left (farthest to nearest the
master cylinder). Is
this right?
As far as pads, I was looking at the R4S, but with all the
running
around I've been doing, I have to ask, what about the cheapies?
The
Raybestos or off-brand pads? What's the down-side to using
them? How
about ceramic pads?
Thanks!
- - Dan
'95
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:16:22
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Brake Flush
No to any secret sauce for cleaning the lines --- fresh fluid
only.
The brake system is broken into two systems of diagonally opposed
wheels.
Right rear and left front is one system and the other is left rear
and right front.
Have the engine running --- provides vacuum boost and runs
the ABS system,
start in the rear and do one system at a time --- book
probably sez --- RR, LF
followed by LR and RF. Use plenty of new fluid, it's
realitively cheap.
Jim Berry
===========================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Danno" <
palermod@pilot.msu.edu>
To:
"'Team3S'" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Saturday,
October 25, 2003 7:15 PM
Subject: Team3S: Brake Flush
> And now
to finish the job.
>
> I'd like to flush the brake lines.
Does the group recommend merely
> using clean brake fluid, or is there a
special cleaner that I would put
> in the master cylinder to bleed through
the lines to flush them clean?
>
> Also, correct me if I don't have
this right: Blead starting from right
> rear, to left rear to front
right to front left (farthest to nearest the
> master cylinder). Is
this right?
>
> As far as pads, I was looking at the R4S, but with
all the running
> around I've been doing, I have to ask, what about the
cheapies? The
> Raybestos or off-brand pads? What's the
down-side to using them? How
> about ceramic pads?
>
>
Thanks!
>
> - Dan
> '95 VR4
>
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:24:22
-0400
From: Roger Lee <
rcleeny@optonline.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Brake Flush
The manual says
1) Start the engine
2)
Right Rear
3) Left Front
4) Left Rear
5) Right Front
I assume
starting the engine and the order is because the ABS unit.
Roger
-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danno" <
palermod@pilot.msu.edu>
To:
"'Team3S'" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Saturday,
October 25, 2003 10:15 PM
Subject: Team3S: Brake Flush
> And
now to finish the job.
>
> I'd like to flush the brake lines.
Does the group recommend merely
> using clean brake fluid, or is there a
special cleaner that I would put
> in the master cylinder to bleed through
the lines to flush them clean?
>
> Also, correct me if I don't have
this right: Blead starting from right
> rear, to left rear to front
right to front left (farthest to nearest the
> master cylinder). Is
this right?
>
> As far as pads, I was looking at the R4S, but with
all the running
> around I've been doing, I have to ask, what about the
cheapies? The
> Raybestos or off-brand pads? What's the
down-side to using them? How
> about ceramic pads?
>
>
Thanks!
>
> - Dan
> '95 VR4
>
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:17:26
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Snicking tranny
Here's a video clip of my clicking
tranny.
The link is:
http://hometown.aol.com/rod2414738/Car_Stuff/shaft_play.aviIs
this normal or what?
Rich/slow old poop
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:36:27
-0600
From: "xwing" <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Road
America Oct 2003 Was Great!
Phil Glazatov is right, the Road America
weekend was a blast!!!
I had the 94 VR4 with the AEM computer tuned in a
little better, and the
120mph speedlimiting glitch fixed (found that out in
the April RA outing),
and based on the overheating at the 3S National
Gathering, I have switched
to the PPE doublepass aluminum radiator. I
used the PPE aluminum rear
shroud, and 2x12" 1200cfm fans (ALL that will fit
with front turbo RIGHT
there), which come on at 185 and 188 degrees F.
The fans are very well
sealed to the shroud, which fits tightly so all air
coming through the fans
MUST come through the radiator first. I coated
the headers, turbines,
downpipe with thermal barrier coating; and used stock
Mitsu heat shields and
some aluminum to try to block heat from radiating ONTO
the rear of the
radiator from the HOT front turbo. I wrapped the oil
draintubes with
heatreflective material.
I was pretty happy with the
job compared to how "most" TD05 setups would be
if you just used stock
radiator, and had nocoatings/heatshields on front
turbo. I think this
is why my, and other, TD05 cars have even overheated
simply driving around
town (!).
It certainly cools way better than it did before, and at a
shorter/lower hp
utilizing track like Gateway's at 3S NG I think it would
have been ok. At
Road America, on the gas for extended periods, it was
not enough
cooling--even with interior heat on full (which also helps
though); the temp
would go to redzone after a lap and a half+. It would
stay there, go above
or below a little based on how much I would let it
cruise at ~120mph instead
of trying to get up to 155+ (saw that once but the
heat precluded anything
more, or repeating it).
It ended up steaming over
on 2 outings. I removed the thermostat as an
experiment, I think that
may have helped a little but still steamed
afterward once (I don't subscribe
to the "must keep coolant slow to absorb
heat" theory).
I don't yet
have the front end ducted properly. The stock front airdam
and
undertray plastic is gone due to frontmount IC; and the air entering
the
front could escape to the sides of the IC/AC condenser/radiator.
Still, the
fans were pulling (though FIRST time out the stupid AEM decided
NOT to run
the fans; I had to re-upload the computer program into the AEM box
from my
laptop, then it remembered to use the fans. AEM can be like
Lucas Electrics
sometimes...) I wonder what/how to duct and block things to
get rid of
underhood pressure (I know it is high pressure under there, the
carbon hood
used to bow way up on the sides until I put 2 more Dzus fasteners
on the
edges of the hood halfway back)...need an extractor hood too.
I
think I MAY have to get rid of the AC/condenser as restriction to
cooling,
though I will probably try to retain it ONE more time, and have the
frontend
ductwork made proper; get the largest freaking oilcooler that will
fit on
the driverside; maybe move the whole radiator forward so I can fit
way
bigger fans/better shrouding (the PPE doesn't have much depth, and the
fans
had to be modified by cutting little 1/2" by 3" or so "windows" so
suction
could reach the OUTSIDE areas, past the fans' own round shrouds
directly
around the blades). Maybe I can find a small auxiliary
radiator to put in
the passengerside of the frontend, and a small electric
waterpump so it
doesn't have to try to handle full waterflow rates, but could
be used for
aux cooling when needed.
We were all eating dinner
Saturday night imbibing adult beverages :) and
ideas like lining the front
fenders with coolant tubes so the front fenders
act as radiators; putting a
Big Ass Radiator up underneath the car where the
rear seats used to be, or
off the back end of the car...big radiators that
swing out from the front and
rear fenders (like the Jupiter 2 on the Lost In
Space Movie when the
warpdrive was activated :) when more cooling is
needed...Oh Yes, the cooling
issue will be solved :)
Extra weight that DOES something doesn't bother me
too much.
Lou Gigliotti had his gigando doubledecker race trailer and
team there; he
was giving lessons for those who wanted, for $55 or so.
I was going out for
another session and one of his guys flagged me down for a
ride; I asked why
in the world he wanted to come in MY poor car...he said
'You passed me and
another guy in his Vette pretty fast so I wanted to check
it out' :)
I was running "low boost" all the time, but a couple times I
cranked it up
to 23psi to do a little warp drive past a way modded 930 turbo,
a Viper, a
Vette (there were so many Z06's and supercharged/hopped upVettes
there it
was hard to believe/know which ones had which engine
mods)...
My car has stock adjustable struts (which I like fine, BTW) with
Ground
Control 500/375 front/rear springrates; old, used on street and
multiple
events hard (73 durometer) Kumho Ecsta V700 265-35's on 18x9"SSR GT1
rims.
I like the ride of these springs and stock struts for street
driving. Has
Saner front antiroll bar (didn't put rear one on yet);
Brembo 14"
frontbrakes with Pagid Orange pads (worked well, wore not too
much); stock
rear brakes with Porterfield R4 pads; no ducts to brakes
yet. My hotlap
timer wasn't working right, I think there were multiple
transmitters out,
but I saw a 2:42 lap on video with some holdups and not at
full power, which
equals the best laps I had last year with 17G's (though
that motor had 12
bent intake valves/missed, and found one rockerarm off
after the event, drat
those Web cams).
I think it likely that the rollcage
(with weled in rear strutbar) and the
TEC front strutbar stiffened the
chassis up some; can't say I notice it alot
though; our cars never struck me
as flexi-flyers in the first place (coming
from 2nd Gen Firebird experience
;)
The car handled nicely; it seemed just on the understeer side of
neutral
(where I want it anyway) and could get a touch of oversteer out of
turn 5 by
getting on the gas. I think Phil has some shots of my rear
tires making
some black marks in a rear/4 wheel drift once. Yes, with
good power, the
AWD really gets fun, interesting (in a good way), and fast
:)
The forged pistons, big turbos, etc smoke a little on shifts as is
their
wont. I still get the occasional loud pop and/or flames out
exhaust on
upshifts :)
The TD05's on this high HP track aren't nearly
as handicapped due to slower
spoolup as they were at Gateway's shorter/slower
course; I could either go
slow and wait for spool in 3rd, or downshift into
2nd on the slowest corners
and then it was Katie Bar The Door :)
The
Kormex tranny still blocks 3rd but not as bad as during dragrace duty;
and
this Kormex did let me into 5th gear, which previous version at RA would
NOT
(would block 3rd AND 5th at high rpm). I have called, left
messages,
and EMailed Frank at Kormex to talk about this, but
have never recieved a
reply. I am forced to look for another transaxle
rebuilder. I can't drive
the car well this way.
I am confident
the car will do 2:30's once I can cool the engine properly,
with newer tires
etc.
The amazing thing was Phil and I mixing it up and doing great
against these
other great cars...this was NOT like the usual BMW etc event
with alot of
relatively slow stuff and a few fast cars; the rule was modded
Z06's,
F-Bodies, supercharged track-dedicated S2000, Vipers, race
BMW's. Our cars
haven't had the best reputation amongst the SportsCar
crowd, and almost
nobody really makes parts for this sort of duty as vs.other
makes; but
considering Phil and my cars' "developmental mule" status we did
great, and
there were ALOT of fast but surprised people getting passed
by. The one guy
with the Z06 pitted next to me blocked me a whole
session on Saturday...I
ended up pushing him HARD...blue/yellow flags hung
like it was the United
Nations building, but he wouldn't let me by. His
buddy came by afterward
and said 'that's a fast car, I guess we should have
let you by'...I made
sure to kick the boost up and lay waste to THAT car
after turn 14 going up
the front straight on a later outing. I lent him
a helmet for his GF to use
with the condition "next time you have to let me
by when I'm coming up on
you" :) he smiled; it was all in fun.
Now I know my winter projects, too.
WAY fun!
Jack T.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:10:00
-0600
From: "xwing" <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Snicking tranny
Rich:
I think it is normal.
I went outside just
now, and on both the 5speed from my 93, and the extra 6
speed from my 94,
BOTH make exactly the same noise, and have that amount of
slight play, from
what I can see.
File that under, "Don't Worry About It"
IMHO...:)
Jack
From: <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Snicking tranny
> Here's a video clip of my clicking
tranny.
>
http://hometown.aol.com/rod2414738/Car_Stuff/shaft_play.avi>
Is this normal or what?
> Rich/slow old poop
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:12:00
-0500
From: "John Monnin" <
john.monnin@comcast.net>
Subject:
Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)
I made this Post on 3SI and I would love some Team3S
members to comment
on a theory I have that oil squirters getting stuck open
MIGHT be
causing oil starvation of bearings at low RPMS.
http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178187I
got this idea from Magnus Motorsports. They wanted to know
why
crankwalk was a bigger problem on 2nd gen DSM engines. They
sectioned
1st and 2nd Gen DSM blocks and the only difference they could find
was
the type of oil squirters used. The 2nd Gen DSMs use pressed
in oil
squirters that look very similar to the oil squirters used on all
3S
rods and on TT blocks.
See their wepage for more details.
http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/crankwalktheory.htmJeff
VanOrdsdale "Gatecrasher" is helping me to find a donor block that
I can
section into pieces for fun and knowledge. Once I get a block cut
up
I'll post pictures on my website.
The other thing that caught my
attention was that Magnus has just been
plugging the oil squirters on DMS and
has not had any problems since,
About 2 years I think. I am starting to
think that this might not be a
bad idea. None of the aftermarket 3S
rods have oil squirters and that
does not seem to cause a problem.
Comments?
John Monnin
Edgar
Francisco:
>
> A NA block is not the same as the turbo block, 2 big
differences that
> I know of. Anyone else on Team3S know any other
difference, did NA's
> get 4-bolt mains after 93?
>
>
1. NA block pistons have much higher compression than turbo block
>
pistons, this high of compression ratio with cause detonation unless
> you want to run REALLY low boost or Race Gas all day. If you
rebuild
> the block with new pistons you can lower the compression
ratio.
Turbo
> rods are forged, with oil squirters to cool
pistons. I do not know
if
> NA rod have the oil
squirters.
> Below is a link to a Turbo 3S rod and piston below a home
polished
> Grand National Rod. On the bottom (relative to this
picture)of the
> rod just left of the Rod Bearing cap and cradle is a
little nub,
> that's the oil squirter.
>
http://www.monninengineering.com/images/RodComparison.JPG>
>
>
2. Turbo block has oil squirters in the block too, NA blocks do not
> have these. Below is a picture of a cylinder bore showing the oil
> squirter.
>
>
http://www.monninengineering.com/images/OilSquirter.JPG>
>
If the block could be machined to add oil squiters that might be a
>
cheap way to get used blocks to use in a turbo car.
>
> Disclaimer,
some people feel that oil squirters are not necessary and
> that they
increase the chance of oil contamination in the combustion
> chamber
which would cause detonation, the very thing they are trying
> to
prevent. Corky Bell knows more about turbo cars than I do and he
>
suggests them in his book Maximum boost, so I am going to trust
him:)
>
> P.S. I posted this on 3si too I you want to see pictures
w/o opening
> links.
>
http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1772406>
>
>
John Monnin
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:30:37
-0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)
Oil squirters are not in the rods, but in the block,
hopefully that's
just a confusion... IMHO, the design of the crank
journals and the
diameters and widths of the journals are what causes
crankwalk in the 2g
DSM cars... Although it may be oil supply related,
I don't think that's
where to look...
- -Cody
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
Behalf
> Of John Monnin
>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 11:12 AM
> To:
Team3S@team3s.com> Subject: Team3S:
RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
Turbo
> engine
needed)
>
> I made this Post on 3SI and I would love some Team3S
members to
comment
> on a theory I have that oil squirters getting
stuck open MIGHT be
> causing oil starvation of bearings at low
RPMS.
>
>
http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178187>
> I got this idea from Magnus Motorsports. They wanted to know
why
> crankwalk was a bigger problem on 2nd gen DSM engines. They
sectioned
> 1st and 2nd Gen DSM blocks and the only difference they could
find was
> the type of oil squirters used. The 2nd Gen DSMs
use pressed in oil
> squirters that look very similar to the oil squirters
used on all 3S
> rods and on TT blocks.
> See their wepage for more
details.
>
>
http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/crankwalktheory.htm>
> Jeff VanOrdsdale "Gatecrasher" is helping me to find a donor
block
that
> I can section into pieces for fun and knowledge.
Once I get a block
cut
> up I'll post pictures on my website.
>
> The other thing that caught my attention was that Magnus has just
been
> plugging the oil squirters on DMS and has not had any problems
since,
> About 2 years I think. I am starting to think that this
might not be
a
> bad idea. None of the aftermarket 3S rods have
oil squirters and that
> does not seem to cause a problem.
>
> Comments?
>
> John Monnin
>
>
>
> Edgar Francisco:
> >
> > A NA block is not the same
as the turbo block, 2 big differences
that
> > I know of. Anyone
else on Team3S know any other difference, did NA's
> > get 4-bolt mains
after 93?
> >
> > 1. NA block pistons have much higher
compression than turbo block
> > pistons, this high of
compression ratio with cause detonation
unless
> > you want to run
REALLY low boost or Race Gas all day. If you
rebuild
> > the
block with new pistons you can lower the compression ratio.
>
Turbo
> > rods are forged, with oil squirters to cool
pistons. I do not know
> if
> > NA rod have the oil
squirters.
> > Below is a link to a Turbo 3S rod and piston below a
home polished
> > Grand National Rod. On the bottom (relative to
this picture)of the
> > rod just left of the Rod Bearing cap and cradle
is a little nub,
> > that's the oil squirter.
> >
http://www.monninengineering.com/images/RodComparison.JPG>
>
> >
> > 2. Turbo block has oil squirters in the
block too, NA blocks do
not
> > have these. Below is a picture
of a cylinder bore showing the oil
> > squirter.
> >
>
>
http://www.monninengineering.com/images/OilSquirter.JPG>
>
> > If the block could be machined to add oil squiters that might
be a
> > cheap way to get used blocks to use in a turbo car.
>
>
> > Disclaimer, some people feel that oil squirters are not
necessary
and
> > that they increase the chance of oil contamination
in the combustion
> > chamber which would cause detonation, the very
thing they are trying
> > to prevent. Corky Bell knows more about
turbo cars than I do and he
> > suggests them in his book Maximum
boost, so I am going to trust
him:)
> >
> > P.S. I posted
this on 3si too I you want to see pictures w/o opening
> >
links.
> >
http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1772406>
>
> >
> > John Monnin
>
>
> ***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:33:45
-0600
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Tranny Qs and Hershey Kisses
At 10:10 AM 10/26/2003 -0600, xwing
wrote:
> Here's a video clip of my clicking tranny.
>
http://hometown.aol.com/rod2414738/Car_Stuff/shaft_play.avi>
Is this normal or what?
>Rich:
>I think it is normal.
>I
went outside just now, and on both the 5speed from my 93, and the extra
6
>speed from my 94, BOTH make exactly the same noise, and have that
amount of
>slight play, from what I can see.
>File that under,
"Don't Worry About It" IMHO...:)
>Jack
>
Whew! That's a relief!
Thanks, Jack.
I was just going to ask the group why I had a Hershey Kiss
in my transfer
case. I thought maybe somebody stuffed it in there to take up
the output
shaft play.
We were putzing around with the tranny and
transfer case yesterday (we
bolted them together to see if the play went
away), when Mike Willis looked
inside the transfer case (where the output
shaft enters from the tranny)
and said, "What's that?" We poked around and
out fell a fossilized,
petrified Hershey Kiss -- the kind with yellow and
brown stripes. Instead
of looking like a droplet, it was flattened. It
smelled like chocolate and
the aluminum foil was gone. We took the TC apart
to see if any remnants
could be found elsewhere, but the TC was
clean.
It's possible the Hershey Kiss has been in there since the car was
built,
but you'd think the heat would have melted it. Another Mitsubishi
Mystery,
I guess.
Rich/slow old poop/all kissed off
now
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:43:33
+0000
From:
mjannusch@comcast.netSubject: RE:
Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)
> Oil squirters are not in the rods, but in the
block,
> hopefully that's just a confusion...
There are oil
squirters in both. At least there were on my '95.
- -Matt
'95
3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:45:34
-0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo engine
needed)
There is an oil passage in the stock rods also --- it points up
and to the side. Damned
if I know where it squirts. The block mounted
squirters are a spring loaded device that
shouldn't allow oil to pass unless
the oil pressure is above ?? pounds [ I think the TIM
has the info on this ].
If stuck open they could cause a drop in pressure at low rpm. I
replaced the
squirters in my rebuild just in case --- IIRC they're about $10 each and
are
pressed into the block.
I certainly wouldn't block the squirter in the
block. My aftermarket Pauter rods do not
have the oil passage that the stock
rods have.
Jim
Berry
=================================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
To: "'John
Monnin'" <
john.monnin@comcast.net>; <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Sunday,
October 26, 2003 9:30 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun
bearings (was 1991 Turbo engine needed)
> Oil squirters are not in
the rods, but in the block, hopefully that's
> just a confusion...
IMHO, the design of the crank journals and the
> diameters and widths of
the journals are what causes crankwalk in the 2g
> DSM cars...
Although it may be oil supply related, I don't think that's
> where to
look...
>
> -Cody
>
> > -----Original
Message-----
> > From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
> Behalf
> > Of John
Monnin
> > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 11:12 AM
> > To:
Team3S@team3s.com> > Subject:
Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
> Turbo
>
> engine needed)
> >
> > I made this Post on 3SI and I
would love some Team3S members to
> comment
> > on a theory I
have that oil squirters getting stuck open MIGHT be
> > causing oil
starvation of bearings at low RPMS.
> >
> >
http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178187***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:21:04
-0500
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)
At 12:12 PM 10/26/2003, John Monnin wrote:
>The
other thing that caught my attention was that Magnus has just
been
>plugging the oil squirters on DMS and has not had any problems
since,
>About 2 years I think. I am starting to think that this
might not be a
>bad idea. None of the aftermarket 3S rods have oil
squirters and that
>does not seem to cause a
problem.
>
>Comments?
All the squirters there are to cool the
pistons and to prevent detonation
and piston meltdowns.
If someone
wants to install stronger rods without the squirters, I would
definitely
leave the block squirters open, unless they are planning to lug
the car in
low rpm or use 11 psi of boost.
Philip
http://supercar-engineering.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:55:58
-0500
From: "Joe Gonsowski" <
twinturbo@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
Turbo engine needed)
Hello all, I haven't read a single 3S post for quite
some time until Jack
wrote about his track experience (always a good read)
earlier today. I've
been busy.
Just a quick note on oil
squirters, despite what you may read anywhere else,
here are the
facts:
Conrod squirters are meant to lubricate the bore walls and
minimize piston
to bore wall noise and potential scuffing on start-up.
Conversely, the
block squirters help transfer heat out of the piston (needed
most under high
load conditions - ie high speed WOT conditions) and allow
higher combustion
temps and pressures without thermal related damage to the
piston.
Eliminating the rod squirter as I and many others have done with
aftermarket
rods will help keep oil pressures up (albeit negligible) as you
eliminate
one leak path. The oil pressure improvement will be most
noticeable right
at the rod journal (although you can't measure it).
Again, you may notice
more noise upon start-ups and increase chances of
scuffing (which is
extremely low once an engine is broken in, just don't
redline a cold engine
upon start-up).
Joe G.
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
To:
"John Monnin" <
john.monnin@comcast.net>; <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Sunday,
October 26, 2003 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun
bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)
> At 12:12 PM
10/26/2003, John Monnin wrote:
> >The other thing that caught my
attention was that Magnus has just been
> >plugging the oil squirters
on DMS and has not had any problems since,
> >About 2 years I
think. I am starting to think that this might not be a
> >bad
idea. None of the aftermarket 3S rods have oil squirters and that
>
>does not seem to cause a problem.
> >
>
>Comments?
>
> All the squirters there are to cool the pistons
and to prevent detonation
> and piston meltdowns.
>
> If
someone wants to install stronger rods without the squirters, I would
>
definitely leave the block squirters open, unless they are planning to
lug
> the car in low rpm or use 11 psi of boost.
>
>
Philip
>
http://supercar-engineering.com>
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:04:46
-0500
From: "John Monnin" <
john.monnin@comcast.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)
Cody:
I just double checked a TT rod (same part
number as NA Rod), It does
not have a check valve, BUT it definitely
has a passage from the main
rod bearing to an orifice that squirts on the
piston. The rod bearing
has a hole in it that lines up with this
passage.
Below is a picture of a TT rod and piston below a GN Rod.
Look on the
bottom side (relative to this picture) of the rod, the small bump
is the
orifice opening, it points more to the cylinder wall than to the
piston.
http://www.monninengineering.com/images/RodComparison.JPGThe
lack of check valve destroys my theory that they might be failing on
NAs but
I am stubborn enough to question if the squirters may bleed off
too much oil
if the oil pump is a little too worn. I am also stubborn
enough to
still question the main bearings because each main bearing oil
supply is
shared with at least 1 oil squirter. The 2 center main
bearing journals
supply 2 oil squirters. On my engine it was a center
main bearing that
looked the worst. See my webpage, first picture at
top to see main
bearings worn too far.
http://johnmonnin.netfirms.com/4boltPictures.htmlJust
for reference this is a picture of the oil squirters in the block
http://www.monninengineering.com/images/OilSquirter.JPGMy
personal experience was when I tore my TT engine apart (timing belt
jumped)
the Rods bearings looked perfect but most of my main journal
bearings had too
much wear and one main journal was very close to a
failure
These bearings
only had 86,000 miles on it, At least 50,000 of those
miles were with
synthetic oil changes every 2500 miles and with my wife
driving it almost
exclusively and she is a very calm driver
I bought this car at a dealer with
only 36,000 miles on it and the
condition of the rest of the car suggested to
me that that the original
owner took very good care of it before I bought
it.
To me it is completely unacceptable for a well maintained modern car
to
have this kind of bearing wear. I originally assumed that there
was
some kind of oil contamination or OEM bearing clearance problem but
I
have seen enough people spins bearing that I am convinced that
the
oiling system on these engines do not have enough of a safety
factor
built in. 2 NA's developed rod knock during the NG04 Road
course
alone, this just irritates me.
P.S. From the pictures it
looks like 1st and 2nd gen DSMs bearings are
the same, but I am not sure so I
emailed Magnus Motorsports to find out.
I'll let you know what I find
out.
John Monnin
- -----Original Message-----
>From: cody
[mailto:overclck@satx.rr.com]
>Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 12:31
PM
>To: 'John Monnin';
Team3S@team3s.com>Subject: RE:
Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
>Turbo engine
needed)
>Oil squirters are not in the rods, but in the block,
hopefully that's
>just a confusion... IMHO, the design of the crank
journals and the
>diameters and widths of the journals are what causes
crankwalk in the
2g
>DSM cars... Although it may be oil supply
related, I don't think
that's
>where to look...
-
-Cody
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:42:24
-0600
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Let's go to Speedseekers in April
At 09:36 AM 10/26/2003 -0600,
xwing wrote:
>Phil Glazatov is right, the Road America weekend was a
blast!!!<snip>
there were so many Z06's and supercharged/hopped
upVettes there it
>was hard to believe/know which ones had which engine
mods)...
<snip> The amazing thing was Phil and I mixing it up and doing
great
against these
>other great cars...this was NOT like the usual BMW
etc event with alot of
>relatively slow stuff and a few fast cars; the
rule was modded Z06's,
>F-Bodies, supercharged track-dedicated S2000,
Vipers, race BMW's. Our cars
>haven't had the best reputation
amongst the SportsCar crowd, and almost
>nobody really makes parts for
this sort of duty as vs.other makes; but
>considering Phil and my cars'
"developmental mule" status we did great, and
>there were ALOT of fast but
surprised people getting passed by.
>
I have to agree. I didn't get
to go this time because of a leaky tranny,
but I ran with Jack and Phil back
in April. This Speedseeker event is like
no other, and it's on the best road
race circuit in the entire
furshlugginer world. When I ran, I got passed by
only two cars: the Dinan
BMW you see in Phil's footage, and a 650 hp race
prepped Porsche 930. Jack,
Phil and I knocked off Z06es, Cobra Rs, Mallet
435s, TT Porsches, and so
on. This is also the only event of its kind that
allows unlimited
passengers and unlimited passing. You are supposed to wait
for a point, and
sometimes we actually do.
It's a little pricey at
$320 for the weekend, but here's where you'll find
the hottest VR4 in the
world (Jack T), the latest brakes and suspension
(Phil), the oldest and
slowest driver (me), and a bunch of up and comers
(Jon, Rod, etc.). I bet
we'll have a half dozen Stealths and VR4s running
at the event in April just
from Iowa, and I urge you folks to come join us.
RA is an easy drive from
Chicago, Milwaukee, Mnpls, Indy, St Louis, KC, and
so on. It's worth an
all-day tow from Texas, Florida, and even California
to run on the best track
in the world under the best open track rules
against the fastest open track
cars in the USA.
Go to
www.speedseekers.com and snoop around.
Watch the videos. When they
open registration, I'll send an email to
the list. The April event fills
up fast, so put it on yer 2004 schedule now
and be prepared to sign up when
registration opens.
Rich/slow old
poop/almost back on the road
94 VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:46:43
-0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo engine
needed)
For the most part the complaint with the spun bearings is with
rod bearings not
the mains. I haven't seen many posts complaining of main
bearing failure.
Jim
Berry
==============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "John Monnin" <
john.monnin@comcast.net>
>
To me it is completely unacceptable for a well maintained modern car to
>
have this kind of bearing wear. I originally assumed that there
was
> some kind of oil contamination or OEM bearing clearance problem but
I
> have seen enough people spins bearing that I am convinced that
the
> oiling system on these engines do not have enough of a safety
factor
> built in. 2 NA's developed rod knock during the NG04
Road course
> alone, this just irritates me.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:14:13
-0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo engine
needed)
Another theory we kicked around a year or so ago was the need for
a cross drilled
crank. The theory on failures from another platform [ BMW ???
] is that at high
rpm the centrifical force at the crank reduces or stops
the flow of oil to the bearings.
They too are convinced that their problem
was solved. A buddy of mine is having his
crank cross drilled, but again, one
data point isn't going to prove a
theory.
Jim
Berry
=======================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "John Monnin" <
john.monnin@comcast.net>
)
>
I just double checked a TT rod (same part number as NA Rod), It
does
> not have a check valve, BUT it definitely has a passage from the
main
> rod bearing to an orifice that squirts on the piston. The rod
bearing
> has a hole in it that lines up with this passage.
>
> Below is a picture of a TT rod and piston below a GN Rod. Look on
the
> bottom side (relative to this picture) of the rod, the small bump is
the
> orifice opening, it points more to the cylinder wall than to the
piston.
> My personal experience was when I tore my TT engine apart
(timing belt
> jumped) the Rods bearings looked perfect but most of my
main journal
> bearings had too much wear and one main journal was very
close to a
> failure
> These bearings only had 86,000 miles on
it, At least 50,000 of those
> miles were with synthetic oil changes
every 2500 miles and with my wife
> driving it almost exclusively and she
is a very calm driver
> I bought this car at a dealer with only 36,000
miles on it and the
> condition of the rest of the car suggested to me
that that the original
> owner took very good care of it before I bought
it.
>
> To me it is completely unacceptable for a well maintained
modern car to
> have this kind of bearing wear. I originally assumed
that there was
> some kind of oil contamination or OEM bearing clearance
problem but I
> have seen enough people spins bearing that I am
convinced that the
> oiling system on these engines do not have enough of
a safety factor
> built in. 2 NA's developed rod knock during
the NG04 Road course
> alone, this just irritates me.
>
>
P.S. From the pictures it looks like 1st and 2nd gen DSMs bearings
are
> the same, but I am not sure so I emailed Magnus Motorsports to find
out.
> I'll let you know what I find out.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:31:51
-0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991 Turbo
engine needed)
Yah, I actually just finished reading Magnus's
webpage... They compared
a 93 block which has the same crank and rods
as the 95+ 2nd gen motor.
This is referred to as a 7 bolt DSM motor (7 bolts
on the crank to
flywheel interface)... Older DSM motors, 89-92.5, are
referred to as 6
bolts or "big rod" motors... The rods are huge in
comparison, all of
the bearing journals are huge, rod bearings and crank
bearings are
giant, and, on top of all of that, they use the same type of
oil
squirters as you saw on that '93 block... It's really a damn
near
bulletproof motor from the factory.... Now, however, from reading
what
they had to say, I agree entirely with their statements...
Assuming
this can be an issue with the 3/S turbo motor oil squirters, then it
is
definitely worth looking into... I really think it's a piss poor
design
really, "hmmm, lets pull oil from the part that needs it the
most..."
And yes, I knew of the oil passages in the rods for the piston
bore
walls, but, as you mentioned, these are not for cooling of the
piston
itself...
- -Cody
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
Behalf
> Of John Monnin
>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 1:05 PM
> To: 'cody';
Team3S@team3s.com> Subject: RE:
Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was 1991
> Turbo engine
needed)
>
> Cody:
>
> I just double checked a TT rod
(same part number as NA Rod), It does
> not have a check valve, BUT
it definitely has a passage from the main
> rod bearing to an orifice that
squirts on the piston. The rod bearing
> has a hole in it that lines
up with this passage.
>
> Below is a picture of a TT rod and piston
below a GN Rod. Look on the
> bottom side (relative to this picture)
of the rod, the small bump is
the
> orifice opening, it points more to
the cylinder wall than to the
piston.
>
>
http://www.monninengineering.com/images/RodComparison.JPG>
>
> The lack of check valve destroys my theory that they might be
failing
on
> NAs but I am stubborn enough to question if the squirters
may bleed
off
> too much oil if the oil pump is a little too
worn. I am also stubborn
> enough to still question the main
bearings because each main bearing
oil
> supply is shared with at least
1 oil squirter. The 2 center main
> bearing journals supply 2 oil
squirters. On my engine it was a center
> main bearing that looked
the worst. See my webpage, first picture at
> top to see main
bearings worn too far.
>
>
http://johnmonnin.netfirms.com/4boltPictures.html>
>
> Just for reference this is a picture of the oil squirters in
the block
>
>
http://www.monninengineering.com/images/OilSquirter.JPG>
> My personal experience was when I tore my TT engine apart (timing
belt
> jumped) the Rods bearings looked perfect but most of my main
journal
> bearings had too much wear and one main journal was very close
to a
> failure
> These bearings only had 86,000 miles on it,
At least 50,000 of those
> miles were with synthetic oil changes every
2500 miles and with my
wife
> driving it almost exclusively and she is
a very calm driver
> I bought this car at a dealer with only 36,000 miles
on it and the
> condition of the rest of the car suggested to me that that
the
original
> owner took very good care of it before I bought
it.
>
> To me it is completely unacceptable for a well maintained
modern car
to
> have this kind of bearing wear. I originally
assumed that there was
> some kind of oil contamination or OEM bearing
clearance problem but I
> have seen enough people spins bearing that
I am convinced that the
> oiling system on these engines do not have
enough of a safety factor
> built in. 2 NA's developed rod
knock during the NG04 Road course
> alone, this just irritates me.
>
> P.S. From the pictures it looks like 1st and 2nd gen DSMs
bearings
are
> the same, but I am not sure so I emailed Magnus
Motorsports to find
out.
> I'll let you know what I find out.
>
> John Monnin
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>From: cody [mailto:overclck@satx.rr.com]
> >Sent: Sunday, October
26, 2003 12:31 PM
> >To: 'John Monnin';
Team3S@team3s.com> >Subject: RE:
Team3S: RE- Oil squirters causing Spun bearings (was
1991
> >Turbo
engine needed)
>
> >Oil squirters are not in the rods, but in
the block, hopefully that's
> >just a confusion... IMHO, the
design of the crank journals and the
> >diameters and widths of the
journals are what causes crankwalk in the
> 2g
> >DSM
cars... Although it may be oil supply related, I don't think
>
that's
> >where to look...
>
> -Cody
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V2
#284
***************************************
