Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Friday, October 24
2003 Volume 02 : Number
283
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:13:14 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Confirmed wheels
There is nothing unsafe about running a tire a
little wider than spec
calls for. In fact, It is common to put
275/40-17 on stock Mustang
Wheels which are 17x8" Granted, handling
will not be nearly as good as
if you put that same tire on a 9.5" wheel, but
there is nothing unsafe
about it. I have 275/35-18 on my 18x8.5" wheels
with no problems at
all. 17x8 is actually the stock SL in later years,
which uses a
245/45-17 from the factory. Again, nothing wrong with
it.
And, if my math serves me, even according to the 20% rule
(which I might
add is the recommended %), an 8" wide wheel will handle a tire
with an
section width of 243.84mm, sounds pretty close to me to a 245.
"If you install a 245/45ZR17 tire on it (if the installer will even
do
it for you), you chance throwing a bead and blowing out if you take
it
out on the highway."
That is absolute blasphemy... There has
never been a warranty claim
denied because the tire was installed on too
narrow of a wheel...
Granted there are certain limitations, but tire sizes
that are possible,
but not quite recommended are: 245 on a 7.5" wheel,
265/275 on a 8.5"
wheel, 255 on a 8" wheel, 315 on a 9.5" wheel...
etc... Here's another,
much more common example - certain newer Ford
trucks that use a
265/75-16 generally use an alloy 6.5" wheel. That is
a 10.4" wide tire
on a 6.5" wheel, and it is an OE designated
size...
- -Cody
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
Behalf
> Of Bob Forrest
>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 11:56 AM
> To:
Team3S@team3s.com> Cc: Damien; David
Friedlander
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Confirmed wheels
>
> -----
Original Message -----
> From: "David Friedlander" <
forzion@maine.rr.com>
> >
Damien;
> > Also, LOTS of places sell wheels. I bought the Fittipaldi
Force
wheels
> with
> a 38 mm offset and love 'em! Tirerack
doesn't carry 'em though.
> > A sample view is at
http://www.wheelspecs.com/specs/wheelmodels/1105>
> Dave Friedlander
> > '94 SL
>
---------------------------->
>
> Because they don't come in
wider rim sizes, these wheels limit your
tire
> choices. In 18",
the widest tire you can use (safely) is the stock
size,
> 245/45ZR18,
which is fine... But you can't upgrade to any of the
wider,
>
low-profile tire sizes (255/40ZR18, 265/35ZR18...), since to do
so
would
> be
> unsafe. You would need a 9" to 9.5" rim to
use those sizes safely.
(You
> should never install a tire that is
wider than ~20% larger than the
width
> of
> the rim.)
>
> Their 17"x8" wheels should *not* be used on our cars at all.
The
widest
> tire
> it can take is (maybe) a 225 series, which is
almost 1" *narrower*
than
> stock.
> If you just use your car to
run around town, that's OK, but I wouldn't
run
> such a small tire on
the highway unless you stay right at the speed
limit
> (and
> you
pump them up to give you more support). If you install
a
245/45ZR17
> tire
> on it (if the installer will even do it for
you), you chance throwing
a
> bead
> and blowing out if you take
it out on the highway.
>
> Please..., tell me that you're running
the 18's with a stock tire size
> (?)...
>
>
---Forrest
>
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:12:23
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: A
different question on rotors
According to Stoptech, and others, the
buildup is normal and good.
Jim Berry
==================================================
- -----
Original Message -----
From: <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
>
I buy a new set of front rotors once a season (for racers, they are a
wear
> item). When I change pads, I may or may not take them down for a
cleanup
> turn, depending on how much buildup they have (race pads tend to
deposit
> great gobs of material on the rotors).
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:25:52
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: A different question on rotors
Yeah, but sometimes it builds
up all lumpy and nasty looking.
When you run yer finger acrost it, it feels
like the rotor has deep gouges
in it. Actually, it's not gouges: it's pad
buildup. That's when I clean 'em
up. A nice light pass on the machine works
fine.
Rich
At 05:12 PM 10/23/2003 -0700, fastmax
wrote:
>According to Stoptech, and others, the buildup is normal and
good.
> Jim
Berry
>> When I change pads, I may or may not take them down
for a cleanup
>> turn, depending on how much buildup they have (race
pads tend to deposit
>> great gobs of material on the rotors).
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:40:06
-0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Road America Oct'03 videos and track report
Road America -
October 18-19, 2003 - Track Report
(the video is at the bottom)
Okay,
we are back from the semi-annual MFBA track weekend at Road America.
It was
an excellent event, as usual.
I believe that the main thing that attracts
everyone to Road America over
and over is a high caliber of contenders,
excellent track organization and
of course the track itself with its
high-speed straightaways and high-G
turns that follow. This type of track
really puts to the test the car's
power, handling, endurance and the
driver's guts.
The 3/S community was represented this time by the
legendary Jack T in his
Battleship Mitsubishi, Rudy Aries in his recently
acquired Stealth R/T,
Jack's friend (sorry, someone remind me his name
please) in a 1st gen TT
who came for day two, and truly yours with Jon
Wieman as a co-pilot.
I think it would not be an exaggeration to say that
we really made a
serious statement this time by running alongside of some of
the fastest
cars there. We passed many of them, and those few that passed us
really
deserved praise. We will get them next time because Jack and I will
make
sure that it happens.
I improved my lap times by at least 8
seconds over April. I ran 2:43 on
Saturday and Jack ran 2:30 on Saturday. We
passed everyone in Group B and
moved into Group A on Sunday. There I felt
right at home and Jack T
humiliated many by passing them as if they were at
a standstill. One of the
Lou Gigliotti guys asked for a ride with him after
he saw that Jack was
passing everyone at such a high speed.
Most of
my improvement came from... (guess what?)... brakes! And some from
the
suspension too. I was *NOT* babying my brakes this time as my Supercar
Engineering 35-mm wide front rotors and 13" read rotors ran relatively
cool. I mashed the brakes as hard as I needed to, Jon, my co-pilot, can
contest. Once I was braking for a late apex turn and saw a Camaro behind me
lighting his tires up in smoke trying not to rear-end me. I also caught up
to and passed a few cars by outbraking them.
I think I was a little
too harsh on the brakes though. I had no extra
cooling and I warped the
rotors a little by the end of day one, just like I
did with the stock rotor
back in April. I got good use out of my brakes
though this time and I am
sure they would have lasted both days if I had
brake cooling or used them
with some finesse. But the brakes still worked
light years better than
stock. Bigger is better when if come to rotors. I
installed the stock rotors
back for day two and faded my brakes in three
laps, and that was with
Panther XP pads that are good up to 1350 F. I then
proceeded to perform some
off-tracking and missed one turn because I could
not slow down enough to
make it.
I had my tender springs, just like at Gingerman the month
before, but this
time I installed 1100 in-lbs springs in the front and 783
in-lbs springs in
the back to try out what happens. This setup ran very
well, especially for
such a fast track as Road America, although it was a
little bumpy driving
back home. These stiff springs installed with the
tender springs felt like
the original JIC setup on the street. I love my
tender springs and I will
never go back. I get more traction and a more
neutrally steering car. There
is no brake oversteer, very minor power
understeer, high and consistent
traction and a smoother ride.
I was
tuning the handling, trying to achieve a neutral setup. This time I
was
approaching it from the safe side with a minor understeer in the
beginning
and then adding the oversteer with an increased front negative
camber. I
ended up with -2.5 deg camber in the front and -2.0 in the rear.
Jack's
firebreathing beast ran very fast. It was throwing flames and smoke
but it
was overheating a little too early. He ran had a HUGE new PPE
Engineering
radiator and he ran the heater all the time (me also) but that
did not seem
to be enough.
Rudy Aries chased some Porsches in Group D. He ran my
street Axxis Ultimate
brake pads and had no braking problems, which was just
one more in the
series of pleasant surprises from these excellent
value-priced pads.
The fourth 3/S had some brake fluid boiling issues,
probably due to an
incomplete brake bleeding procedure, but he seemed to
have had lots of fun
too at the track.
Jack and I are firmly
committed to make these cars go fast on the open
track. Jack knows all the
secrets of big power already. He will also figure
how to solve the
overheating and I will figure the brakes and the
suspension. Then hold onto
your pants all supermodified Corvettes, Porsches
and
Vipers!
Links:
Video
http://www.supercar-engineering.com/videos/RA_Oct03-1.wmv
(streaming
20 min, 64.6 MB)
Road America
http://www.roadamerica.comMFBA at Road
America
http://www.speedseekers.comPhilip
http://supercar-engineering.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 03:03:03
-0700 (PDT)
From:
chfmn@webtv.net
(Walter Womack)
Subject: Team3S: Brightness
Hey guys;I have
noticed(not only with my Stealth)but with other vehicles
also,that as time
goes by the exterior lights seem to get dimmer.Is this
an inherent problem
with wiring harnesses getting older or can the
problem be solved with a
higher amp altenator?Or is it just an
unavoidable ageing thing?I have
considered installing new "super"bulbs
but,they are expensive and if they
don't make a difference,the stores
won't take them back.(No returns on
electrical items).Headlights used to
shine bright white.Now more of a yellow
light.And yes,I have washed
them!HA.Thank you for any advice.I do a lot of
"back street" driving
where there are no street lights to help out.
92
RTTT Pearl White
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 03:11:22
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Confirmed wheels
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
-
---snip---------->
> And, if my math serves me, even according to the
20% rule (which I might add
is the recommended %), an 8" wide wheel will
handle a tire with an section
width of 243.84mm, sounds pretty close to me to
a 245.
- -----------snip---------------->
You're totally right, of
course... Thanks for the correction. (Shows what
happens when you
rush and don't use a calculator). I mentally figured 10% and
forgot to
double it to make 20%. I just saw tires pop a bead on two cars at
the
track recently, and I had visions of disaster for David, due to my
faulty
math. Those tires are definitely a fine fit.
As SNL's
Emily Latella would say..., "Never Mind"! ;-)
-
---Forrest
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 04:20:15
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Quick datalog analysis needed...
I did a quick errand run yesterday, and
I threw the logger on just for a quick
reading after I adjusted my settings a
bit. (I'm trying to get them back to
where they were when the car was
running well). I still get some fuel smoke
when I start up, but nowhere
near the billows of it that I was seeing last
week. And there is still
some hesitation before the car gets going from idle.
The car only had about 5
minutes to warm up from a cold engine.
This run was primarily in 1st and
2nd, since I was only gunning it a bit
between stoplights, just to get some
higher-rev readings. I don't think I
even reached 6k. Yet I still
saw 4 spots where I had brief (2-4sec) knock
readings in the 20's(!), but
they weren't at predictable places of high
acceleration - ~50% throttle or
so. I'm beginning to think that there is
something rattling underneath
the car and it's being read as knock, in
addition to my bad settings.
The rest of this 30 minute run had knock of
zero. The first bad spot is
at 18:50, then 19:10, 19:36, and 20:44.
Datalog/XLS/CSV is here:
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102203a.tlgwww.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102203a.xlswww.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102203a.csvSAFC-II
settings were:
Low throttle: 28 across the board.
High throttle:
1000:
-28; 1600: -28; 2200: -27; 2800: -23
3400: -20; 4000:
-20; 4600: -20; 5200: -20
5800: -20; 6400: -18; 7000:
-18; 7600: -18
Thanks for any advice...
- --Forrest
13C
turbos, 550 injectors, Supra pump (full v), SAFC-II,
boost at 9psi, HFcat, 3"
DP and 3" Borla exhaust,
no headwork.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:39:52
-0000
From: Kopsick Michael J Contr WRALC/LTET <
Michael.Kopsick@robins.af.mil>
Subject:
Team3S: ABS brake pump?
Today my light came on for my ABS brakes.
When I shut the car off (94 3k)
the pump kept going and i had to remove the
60a fuse to get it to stop. Do
I have a stuck relay for the ABS or is
the pump bad? I cant see the pump or
the relay...has anyone had this
problem? Many thanks for info in
advance...Mike
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:52:10
-0400
From: "The Furmans" <
L.Furman1@cox.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Quick datalog analysis needed...
Hey Bob, the next time you run
an errand do me a favor from a rolling
start in 2nd just flat out bury the
throttle dont transition from part
throttle. I have a nagging suspicion
you motor mounts are beat and
when ever you bury the throttle the enginge is
moving an ringing the
block...
- ----- Original Message -----
From:
"Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <
Team3S@team3s.com>; "Team3S Racers"
<
3SRacers@team3s.com>
Sent:
Friday, October 24, 2003 7:20 AM
Subject: Team3S: Quick datalog analysis
needed...
> This run was primarily in 1st and 2nd, since I was only
gunning it a
bit
> between stoplights, just to get some higher-rev
readings. I don't
think I
> even reached 6k. Yet I still
saw 4 spots where I had brief (2-4sec)
knock
> readings in the 20's(!),
but they weren't at predictable places of
high
> acceleration - ~50%
throttle or so. I'm beginning to think that
there is
> something
rattling underneath the car and it's being read as knock,
in
> addition
to my bad settings. The rest of this 30 minute run had
knock of
>
zero. The first bad spot is at 18:50, then 19:10, 19:36, and
20:44.
> Datalog/XLS/CSV is here:
>
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102203a.tlg>
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102203a.xls>
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102203a.csv>
>
--Forrest
> 13C turbos, 550 injectors, Supra pump (full v),
SAFC-II,
> boost at 9psi, HFcat, 3" DP and 3" Borla exhaust,
> no
headwork.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:26:51
+0200
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Quick datalog analysis needed...
There is nothing to see bad
unless the immediate ping !
Interesting, both pings start right around
4000rpm ... strange. But note :
O2 sensor read only 0.86V there. Of course
it's only part thottle there but
even then the system should be in closed
loop or in an above 0.9 V area.
What I also notice is that the IPW decreases
during rpm buildup....not that
normal IMHO. I always log the air flow as it
is the signal the AFC sends to
the ECU. So if I see a noticeabel change
there first, things can be exlained.
The idea of false knock is possible
since the timing did not get retarded.
Also the knock rise was damn quick,
no start signs. But our ECU doesn't
seem to do much to part throttle knock
signs, especially below 4500. But
your knock did not go away due to the
still rising advance of the
timing....this is pretty strange
IMHO.
What does the O2 look at idle and how fast it is going into the
"sweeping"
mode ?
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
www.rtec.chAt 04:20 24.10.2003 -0700,
Bob Forrest wrote:
>I did a quick errand run yesterday, and I threw the
logger on just for a quick
>reading after I adjusted my settings a
bit. (I'm trying to get them back to
>where they were when the car
was running well). I still get some fuel smoke
>when I start up, but
nowhere near the billows of it that I was seeing last
>week. And
there is still some hesitation before the car gets going from idle.
>The
car only had about 5 minutes to warm up from a cold engine.
>
>This
run was primarily in 1st and 2nd, since I was only gunning it a
bit
>between stoplights, just to get some higher-rev readings. I
don't think I
>even reached 6k. Yet I still saw 4 spots where I had
brief (2-4sec) knock
>readings in the 20's(!), but they weren't at
predictable places of high
>acceleration - ~50% throttle or so. I'm
beginning to think that there is
>something rattling underneath the car
and it's being read as knock, in
>addition to my bad settings. The
rest of this 30 minute run had knock of
>zero. The first bad spot is
at 18:50, then 19:10, 19:36, and 20:44.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:32:28
+0200
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Quick datalog analysis needed...
Same here but then he could
simulate the situation to check if there is
real motor mount
knock.
But also a slapping piston can cause such a "noise" or just
everything in
the engine that moves under power. often, bad montor mounts
can be seen on
a 1-3 speedshifts
roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT
TT
www.rtec.chAt 07:52
24.10.2003 -0400, The Furmans wrote:
>Hey Bob, the next time you run an
errand do me a favor from a rolling
>start in 2nd just flat out bury the
throttle dont transition from part
>throttle. I have a nagging
suspicion you motor mounts are beat and
>when ever you bury the throttle
the enginge is moving an ringing the
>block...
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:34:41
-0400
From: "Williams, Tommy F" <
WilliamsTF@bernstein.com>
Subject:
Team3S:Firewall Motor Mount MB581705 New 4Sale !
As a result of my own
erroneous diagnosis of a problem, I bought an unneeded
motor mount that I am
now willing to sell with a financial advantage to the
buyer.
$70 +
shipping gets it.................
$96.60 List
Tommy
'96
VR-4
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***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:56:40
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: ABS brake pump?
At 11:39 AM 10/24/2003 -0000, Kopsick Michael
J Contr WRALC/LTET wrote:
>Today my light came on for my ABS brakes.
When I shut the car off (94 3k)
>the pump kept going and i had to remove
the 60a fuse to get it to stop. Do
>I have a stuck relay for the ABS
or is the pump bad? I cant see the pump or
>the relay...has anyone
had this problem? Many thanks for info
in
>advance...Mike
The answer is: Nobody knows. It seems that
if you simply disconnect the ABS
fuse (lower left corner of the fuse box on
the passenger side -- loosen the
two bolts that hold it in), leave the ABS
fuse disconnected for an hour or
a couple of days, and then plug it back in
again, it miraculously cures the
problem. Nobody knows why. In my case, I
kept lengthening the time-out
periods until the problem went away. It's been
cured for a year now.
If that doesn't cure it, the next step is to
replace one or both of the ABS
relays. There are two, one dirt cheap and one
ultra expensive. I'd start
with the cheap one. I got a post from somebody
(John C?) that listed the
two parts numbers, but I went round and round with
the dealer trying to
find the cheap one and never did get the parts numbers
to match up with the
parts book. My problem went away, so I never continued
the pursuit.
Also, last year about this time, Greg Gonzales at
<
stealth@fitnessolutions.com>
told me about a solution he came up with that
involved a small check valve in
the brake booster line. It's a very cheap
fix, but I seem to have purged the
photo he sent me. Maybe Greg will step
in and explain it
again.
Searching the archives might turn up the discussion we had last
year.
Rich/slow old poop
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:56:11
-0600
From: "Greg Gonzales" <
92stealthtt@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: ABS brake pump?
Yes I am having the exact issue at this time
as well. It has been on going
the past year or so. Right now I am just
cruising around with out that fuse
in. The problem as Rich said does go away,
or at least in my case after a
peroid of time. All I do it disconenct the
battery, plug the fuse back in
tighten the bolts, then connect the battery, I
hear it check the pump, then
its fine...for anywhere from 2 weeks to 6
months.
My previous problem was this: I changed the plugs on my car. I
couldnt get
the brake booster hose off. Well after frustration I just cut the
thing
thinking it was just a hose...wrong...it has a check valve in it. So
I
bought another hose and placed the check valve in it. Well the
computer
didnt like it. Soon after my abs light came on...the pump did not
stay on,
just the abs light. I believe the ABS would flash 3x and stay on. I
wasnt
sure why the computer knew that I had put a different hose on there but
I
assure you there was no leak. I soon ordered a hose from Norco mitsu and
I
took off my hose, put theirs in, started the car, it ran through its
ABS
check then sure enough the problem was fixed.
I do have a picture of
the hose, let me know if you need more detail.
Greg Gonzales
92 RT
TT
> At 11:39 AM 10/24/2003 -0000, Kopsick Michael J Contr
WRALC/LTET wrote:
> >Today my light came on for my ABS brakes.
When I shut the car off (94
3k)
> >the pump kept going and i had to
remove the 60a fuse to get it to stop.
Do
> >I have a stuck relay
for the ABS or is the pump bad? I cant see the pump
or
> >the
relay...has anyone had this problem? Many thanks for info in
>
>advance...Mike
>
>
> The answer is: Nobody knows. It seems
that if you simply disconnect the
ABS
> fuse (lower left corner of the
fuse box on the passenger side -- loosen
the
> two bolts that hold it
in), leave the ABS fuse disconnected for an hour or
> a couple of days,
and then plug it back in again, it miraculously cures
the
> problem.
Nobody knows why. In my case, I kept lengthening the time-out
> periods
until the problem went away. It's been cured for a year now.
>
> If
that doesn't cure it, the next step is to replace one or both of
the
ABS
> relays. There are two, one dirt cheap and one ultra
expensive. I'd start
> with the cheap one. I got a post from somebody
(John C?) that listed the
> two parts numbers, but I went round and round
with the dealer trying to
> find the cheap one and never did get the parts
numbers to match up with
the
> parts book. My problem went away, so I
never continued the pursuit.
>
> Also, last year about this time,
Greg Gonzales at
> <
stealth@fitnessolutions.com>
told me about a solution he came up with
that
> involved a small check
valve in the brake booster line. It's a very cheap
> fix, but I seem to
have purged the photo he sent me. Maybe Greg will step
> in and explain it
again.
>
> Searching the archives might turn up the discussion we
had last year.
>
> Rich/slow old poop
>
>
>
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:01:17
-0400
From: Bill Ma <
BillMa@FLAGCOMM.com>
Subject:
Team3S: DR500 and Hard pipe kit for sale
Hey guys.
I have a set
of DR500's and DN performance hard pipe kit for sale.
The turbos have
about 20,000 miles on them. I've used Royal Purple the whole
time and they
have a little shaft play.
The DN hard pipe kit has around 10,000 miles
on them, and a "slight" ding on
one of the pipes.
I'm going to take
some pictures this weekend so if you are interested in
them let me know and
I'll send you the pics.
I'd like to get $1700+shipping for
everything.
Oh, the reason I'm selling them is because I went with a set
of 19t turbos
with a FMIC.
Thanks
Bill
Visions Of
Speed
http://visionsofspeed.net***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:16:40
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Quick datalog analysis needed...
Thanks for the input,
Roger. So I can assume that a big bump on an hard
suspension can ring
the engine and 'fool' the ECU into thinking it's knocking,
right? I'll
look at the O2 at idle, but it looked pretty flat in the past.
-
---Forrest
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
> There
is nothing to see bad unless the immediate ping ! Interesting, both
pings
start right around 4000rpm ... strange. But note : O2 sensor read
only
0.86V there. Of course it's only part thottle there but even then
the system
should be in closed loop or in an above 0.9 V area. What I
also notice is
that the IPW decreases during rpm buildup....not that normal
IMHO. I always
log the air flow as it is the signal the AFC sends to the ECU.
So if I see a
noticeabel change there first, things can be exlained.
>
The idea of false knock is possible since the timing did not get
retarded.
Also the knock rise was damn quick, no start signs. But our ECU
doesn't seem
to do much to part throttle knock signs, especially below
4500. But your
knock did not go away due to the still rising advance of
the timing....this
is pretty strange IMHO.
> What does the O2
look at idle and how fast it is going into the "sweeping"
mode ?
>
Roger G.
> 93 & 96 3000GT TT
>
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:17:03
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Quick datalog analysis needed...
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "The Furmans" <
L.Furman1@cox.net>
> Hey Bob, the
next time you run an errand do me a favor from a rolling start
in 2nd just
flat out bury the throttle dont transition from part throttle. I
have a
nagging suspicion you motor mounts are beat and when ever you bury
the
throttle the enginge is moving an ringing the block...
-
----------------------->
I'll try to get out and try that today, or
try it on the way to the track. My
motor mounts are new poly jobs
(fronts look OK), but with that bone-jarring
JIC suspension, something may
have shaken loose (including a mount). I'm
pretty sure that the times I
accelerated where I logged knock correspond to
bumpy areas on the road -
something I won't encounter at the track.
I'll have to wing it based on
my datalogs over the weekend, since I'm leaving
in the AM for Sears
Point. If I can get rid of that damned smoke when I start
up and drop
that knock spot, I'm thinking of running it at the track. Rick
will be
there and I'll have some (expert) help to make that decision.
Thanks
for the fast reply, Russ!
Forrest
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:42:53
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Quick datalog analysis needed...
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
> Same
here but then he could simulate the situation to check if there is real
motor
mount knock.
> But also a slapping piston can cause such a "noise" or just
everything in
the engine that moves under power. often, bad motor mounts can
be seen on a
1-3 speedshifts
> roger G.
> 93 & 96 3000GT
TT
>
www.rtec.ch-
------------------------>
Well, I don't speedshift very often (not at
all during this past datalog).
But because of the hesitation I'm seeing when
I accelerate, it would have the
same effect as burying the throttle.
Because I have too much power on the
street, I rarely have occasion to floor
it. I seldom go to WOT except at the
track, and even then it is maybe
90% throttle. I'm thinking that I may also
have a sticky linkage or
something, in addition to other possible problems.
I'm worried too that I may
have washed the cylinders during that lean
condition when all that gas was
dumped in (when the ECU compensated).
Richening up the 3k+ map might tell the
tale, and I'll add the airflow setting
to the log parameters, as you
suggested.
Thanks!
Forrest
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:05:12
-0600
From: "Zach Sauerman" <
axemaddock@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: loss of boost
Good afternoon everyone!
I have a boost problem.
When I ask for upwards of 10psi, the car has serious
problems. She
accelerates fine up to just shy of 8-10psi, then hits a wall.
At that point,
the boost fluctuates and spikes, unable to hold what she's
got until I back
off.
The car idles normally. It drives normally until I ask for all that
boost.
There is not an engine light when this happens. The engine is subject
to
this malfunction because it will loose power, then try again- feeling
about
the same as if you were to pulse the throttle with the clutch fully
engaged.
If I roll on slow, the problem happens, but not as harsh as if I
were aksing
for boost RIGHT NOW.
The BOV tests OK IAW the service manual.
The solenoid failed one of the
three tests the manual prescribes dealing
with applying power and holding or
leaking vacuum. Which one it failed I
can't remember and have lost the paper
I wrote it on- stupid. But it passed
the other two.
I donot have a separate boost gauge to connect to the solenoid
as the manual
prescribes, but have an aftermarket gauge tapped into the FPR-
ie not
relying on factory gauge. That the car keeps trying to accelerate
when this
happens leads me to believe that it isn't fuel cut. It runs fine
like
nothing is wrong when I don't ask for more than 8-10psi. I am not sure
that
this would be the result of a bad wastegate actuator because recently I
blew
off the rear turbo's air pipe and things ran more or less fine, just
less
boost and more noise. I donot think both wategate actuators would fail
simultaneously, and if one had already failed and this is the result of the
second, I donot think that is right because it ran real strong
before.
Does anyone have any suggestions or experience with something like
this?
Please share if you do. I would sure appreciate it. I am in San
Antonio TX,
so if anybody knows of a place that can actually help and won't
tell me
about the Johnson-Rod, Kaneuter Valve, or blinker fluid, please let
me know.
Or if you have ideas and want see what she is doing, please let me
know.
Thank you very much.
Respectfully,
Zach Sauerman
'94 TT,
sort-of..
_________________________________________________________________
Enjoy
MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet
Service. Try it FREE for one month!
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Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:33:02
+0000
From:
gabe92rttt@comcast.netSubject: Re:
Team3S: loss of boost
Zach,
I assume your car is relatively stock?
You are still utilizing the stock boost selenoid? Since you have the
service manual, try testing the MAS. A lot of DSMs have issues when they
"roll on" the throttle, but not as bad or at all when quickly punched.
Often this problem points to a bad MAS. I also suspect that is the problem
because you said that the rear turbo hose blow off (I assume the intake hose)
and the car ran ok. Under normal circumstances, the car would have
sputtered and died or been close to dying as the metered air would not have been
actually there and the air/fuel would be off. Either way, its worth a
shot...best of luck.
- --
Gabe Simoes
1992 Dodge Stealth R/T
Twin Turbo
> Good afternoon everyone!
> I have a boost problem.
When I ask for upwards of 10psi, the car has serious
> problems. She
accelerates fine up to just shy of 8-10psi, then hits a wall.
> At that
point, the boost fluctuates and spikes, unable to hold what she's
> got
until I back off.
> The car idles normally. It drives normally until I ask
for all that boost.
> There is not an engine light when this happens. The
engine is subject to
> this malfunction because it will loose power, then
try again- feeling about
> the same as if you were to pulse the throttle
with the clutch fully engaged.
> If I roll on slow, the problem happens,
but not as harsh as if I were aksing
> for boost RIGHT NOW.
> The
BOV tests OK IAW the service manual. The solenoid failed one of the
>
three tests the manual prescribes dealing with applying power and holding or
> leaking vacuum. Which one it failed I can't remember and have lost the
paper
> I wrote it on- stupid. But it passed the other two.
> I
donot have a separate boost gauge to connect to the solenoid as the manual
> prescribes, but have an aftermarket gauge tapped into the FPR- ie not
> relying on factory gauge. That the car keeps trying to accelerate when
this
> happens leads me to believe that it isn't fuel cut. It runs fine
like
> nothing is wrong when I don't ask for more than 8-10psi. I am not
sure that
> this would be the result of a bad wastegate actuator because
recently I blew
> off the rear turbo's air pipe and things ran more or
less fine, just less
> boost and more noise. I donot think both wategate
actuators would fail
> simultaneously, and if one had already failed and
this is the result of the
> second, I donot think that is right because
it ran real strong before.
> Does anyone have any suggestions or
experience with something like this?
> Please share if you do. I would
sure appreciate it. I am in San Antonio TX,
> so if anybody knows of a
place that can actually help and won't tell me
> about the Johnson-Rod,
Kaneuter Valve, or blinker fluid, please let me know.
> Or if you have
ideas and want see what she is doing, please let me know.
> Thank you
very much.
>
> Respectfully,
> Zach Sauerman
> '94 TT,
sort-of..
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Enjoy
MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet
>
Service. Try it FREE for one month!
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:34:11
-0400
From: "Bob G" <
Rguirlinger@cfl.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Overheated!
Driving along today, I looked over at the temp guage
and it was pegged! I
pulled over immediately, but there's no telling
how long it had been that
way. I had been driving for about 20
minutes.
Popped the hood and found the source of the bellowing steam to
be a small
hose coming off the thermostat housing that runs back toward the
firewall.
First, how much damage do you think I may have done (engine
wasn't knocking
or running poorly), and;
Second, where does that
little hose go?
Still waiting for it to cool off enough to do an
investigation.
Bob Guirlinger
HOT! 92 VR-4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:39:13
-0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Fuel Pressure and AFR
I finally got my hands on a wide-band O2
sensor and a datalogger and have been playing around a bit with my VR-4.
As some of you may remember, I have observed a significant loss (8-12psi) of
fuel pressure in the high-RPM range under full throttle. This represents a
13.5% to 20.3% loss in fuel pressure when running 14psi of boost. I would
think that this would be significant enough to cause a change in AFR if the fuel
maps (open-loop) do not compensate for it.
Here's what I found:
http://www.team3s.com/~egross/Temp/3rdGearPull.gifThis
is a 3rd gear pull up a pretty steep hill from about 50mph (3300RPM). I'm
still in the process of hooking up other things to datalog (RPM, boost, fuel
pressure, IDC, etc.), so the only thing on the graph is AFR over time. The
2sec mark is about where I floored it, and the spike at 14sec is when I lifted
off the throttle, at a hair over 7000RPM.
I watched my differential fuel
pressure gauge during this pull, and around 4500RPM, I started to lose fuel
pressure. It was at 44psi to start out with, and was down to 34psi or a
hair lower by redline. Note that this is *differential* fuel pressure,
which in an ideal world, would stay pinned at 43-45psi.
Note the AFR
graph, and the fact that for the last 6 seconds of the run (probably 4500RPM
onward), the AFR stays pretty darned close to 11.5:1. If the OEM fuel maps
didn't expect this loss of fuel pressure, then I would expect the AFR to rise
toward the end of the graph. AFAIK, the ECU knows nothing of fuel pressure
and gets no EGO feedback during these conditions, so I think the only way the
AFR would stay this solid is if the OEM ECU maps were created with this loss of
fuel pressure in mind.
Anybody got any other comments or thoughts?
I'm beginning to suspect that the loss of fuel pressure I've seen at high RPM in
my car is an "undocumented feature" rather than a "bug".
Relevant
Specs Of My Car:
- --------------------------
1995 VR-4, 73000mi
OEM
fuel pump
OEM 360cc injectors
OEM FPR
New Fuel Filter
Boost
Controller at 0.95kg (14psi)
Downpipe, OEM main cat
OEM O2 sensors,
verified to be ok
Water Injection (Aquamist 2s)
RDR Fuel Pump Rewire
-
--------------------------
- --Erik
'95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:57:56
-0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Overheated!
That hose is probably either the feed or return line
for your heater core. There are some other hoses that run to/from the
throttle body, but you said they ran back to the firewall. The heater core
hoses are the only ones that run all the way back to the firewall.
As for
possible damage, if you weren't running the car really hard, you may be
lucky. We do have an oil cooler, which would help with temperatures in
this situation. Since your car seemed to be running ok, I think you have
reason to be hopeful. Get the hose fixed, fill up your coolant and then
drive the car - that'll tell you pretty quickly if there are any serious
problems.
If it's any comfort, I had a very similar thing happen
to my daily driver (Corolla 1.8L I-4) when my water pump sprung a pinhole
leak. The coolant gradually drained out until there wasn't any for the
pump to pump. The way I noticed it was that it was cold and I wanted to
use the heater. It seemed to be taking an abnormally long time to get any
heat out of the vents (of course, since there was no coolant in the heater
core!) and I popped it into 3rd on the highway to get some heat into the
coolant. About 5 minutes later, I look at my temp gauge and it's beyond
pegged! I think the needle was bending :-) I turned the engine off
and coasted to a stop. The engine was HOT! After letting it cool
down a bit, I managed to get it over to a friend's house, where I parked it for
the night. It made some weird noises on the way over there, even though
the temp gauge was warm, but ok. I replaced the water pump and got her
back on the road. It's been 15k miles since that event, a!
nd
she's running like a champ!
- --Erik
Bob G wrote:
> Driving
along today, I looked over at the temp guage
> and it was pegged! I
pulled over immediately, but
> there's no telling how long it had been
that
> way. I had been driving for about 20
minutes.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:36:08
-0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Brightness
Yes, usually an age related problem, new lamps should
fix.
You should see the head lights on my 66 Mustang. They practically
beg
for
someone to walk ahead with a flahlight. Probably haven't been
changed in
over 15 years, but I hardly ever drive it at
night.
Kurt
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Walter Womack
Sent: Friday,
October 24, 2003 3:03 AM
To:
Team3s@team3s.comSubject: Team3S:
Brightness
Hey guys;I have noticed(not only with my Stealth)but with
other vehicles
also,that as time goes by the exterior lights seem to get
dimmer.Is this
an inherent problem with wiring harnesses getting older or can
the
problem be solved with a higher amp altenator?Or is it just
an
unavoidable ageing thing?I have considered installing new
"super"bulbs
but,they are expensive and if they don't make a difference,the
stores
won't take them back.(No returns on electrical items).Headlights used
to
shine bright white.Now more of a yellow light.And yes,I have
washed
them!HA.Thank you for any advice.I do a lot of "back street"
driving
where there are no street lights to help out.
92 RTTT Pearl
White
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:00:26
-0400
From: "Bob G" <
Rguirlinger@cfl.rr.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Overheated!
OK, it's cooled off enough for me to tell that I
have to take off the
throttle body, the bankety-blank distributor and God
knows what else to get
to the blanking clamps! Damn you
Mitsubishi!
Grumble, grumble, grumble..........
Good new is there
was no oil in my intake. Turbos must have a little more
life left in
them.
Bob Guirlinger
Blanking 92 VR-4
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Guy, Michael (CS)" <
michael.guy@ngc.com>
To: "Bob G"
<
Rguirlinger@cfl.rr.com>
Sent:
Friday, October 24, 2003 4:41 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Overheated!
> I doubt you did anything really horrible. I made my
usual 1 hr. drive home
> from work and when I checked my gauges, about
30-40 min. into the drive,
> mine was pegged and my car still runs quite
well. (This happened about 8k
> ago.)
>
> Not sure where it
goes though. Hope that makes you feel a little better.
But
> keep in
mind, that I don't have a VR4, so something could be different,
but
> I
would doubt it as far as a cooling system goes.
>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Bob G [mailto:Rguirlinger@cfl.rr.com]
> Sent:
Friday, October 24, 2003 4:34 PM
> To: Team 3S Board
> Subject:
Team3S: Overheated!
>
>
> Driving along today, I looked over
at the temp guage and it was pegged! I
> pulled over immediately,
but there's no telling how long it had been that
> way. I had been
driving for about 20 minutes.
>
> Popped the hood and found the
source of the bellowing steam to be a small
> hose coming off the
thermostat housing that runs back toward the firewall.
>
> First,
how much damage do you think I may have done (engine wasn't
knocking
>
or running poorly), and;
>
> Second, where does that little hose
go?
>
> Still waiting for it to cool off enough to do an
investigation.
>
> Bob Guirlinger
> HOT! 92
VR-4
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:03:04
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Did another datalog...
I did a couple of 2nd gear pulls and a couple in
3rd - mostly to ~6k (one up
to 6300, none to redline).
I changed the
A/F settings on the SAFC-II according to the numbers I gave
Damon a while
back (see below my sig), and the low throttle point was at 10%
and the high
*was* at 50%. Still the same sucky results, although the car
feels
OK. There's a lag still, and the boost seems to come on late,
but
strong - right up to 1 bar. See what you can tell from the numbers,
please...
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102403a.tlg
14psi
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102403a.csv
14psi
I'm copying Roger, but he won't get this until I'm at the track for
the
weekend, I'm guessing...
TIA,
Forrest '91 VR-4,
13C's,
550s, 3" exhaust, Supra pump full, MBC @ 1 bar
-
-------------------------
High Throttle:
1000> -28, 1600> -25,
2200> -23, 2800> -20,
3400> -18, 4000> -18, 4600> -18,
5200> -18,
5800> -20, 6400> -25, 7000> -25, 7600>
-25.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:13:20
-0700
From: "E.T." <
ET@GoneRacing.com>
Subject: Team3S:
OT: Learn to race with the Pros! Announcing a new driving school with Pro
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Do you want to drive faster and
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Do you want to learn
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- --Women who would like to learn how to race, *and* how
to apply the
"intimidation factor" that is so natural to men.
- --Newly
licensed drivers with high-performance cars.
- --Corporations who wish to
hold driving events and special programs.
Location:
Reno-Fernley
Raceway, Fernley NV
Price:
Special introductory rates of $195
per day, $350 for 2 days
Dates available:
Friday Oct. 31 -
Sunday, Nov. 2
Fri. Dec. 12 - Sat., Dec. 13
2004 schedule to be
determined
To register or for more information, contact:
Eileen Thomas "E.T."
et@goneracing.com415
350-4701
Please reply privately, (and not to the list), or on the
Team3S Racers
list with your questions or comments
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:28:21
+0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Overheated!
In any case, change the thermostat. Even if it
was not the cause of the
overheating (but can be) than it should be replaced.
Mitsu Switzerland once
told me that they do not work well after they have
seen too hot water.
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch- ----- Original Message -----
From: Gross, Erik
To: Bob G ; Team 3S Board
Sent: Friday, October 24,
2003 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Overheated!
That hose is
probably either the feed or return line for your heater core.
There are some
other hoses that run to/from the throttle body, but you said
they ran back to
the firewall. The heater core hoses are the only ones that
run all the
way back to the firewall.
As for possible damage, if you weren't running
the car really hard, you may
be lucky. We do have an oil cooler, which
would help with temperatures in
this situation. Since your car seemed
to be running ok, I think you have
reason to be hopeful. Get the hose
fixed, fill up your coolant and then
drive the car - that'll tell you pretty
quickly if there are any serious
problems.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:35:12
+0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Did another datalog...
Bob, .... I don't like the log ...
knock allover the rpm even on part
throttle.
I looked at 06:44
:
- - Timing imediatly gets redarded in two steps as knock occurs
- -
Timing rises as knock goes down -> knock rises again
With this you can
eliminate the idea of something ratteling or a motor
mount. It' is timing
related knock so the problem belongs to the combustion
in the
cylinders.
IMHO, step down the boost first until the problem is solved. I
had the same
picture on a 92 3000GT that had knock at 0,85 bars. The cure at
this time
were new spark plugs regapped to 0.032. Unfortunately, our plugs
seem to get
a wider gap over time and this is why knock came back, but less
than before
(i.e always between 7 -13 at 0.95 bars)
I don't see that
fuel is a problem. Not the injectors nor the fuel pressure.
Otherwise O2
would drop.
What's going on with the TPS ? Why up to 95% and then down.
Also on other
pulls like 13:40 ... knock and a little strange IDC curve ...
why's that ?
IMHO, there is something with the TPS that gives input to the
ECU and the
S-AFC (if you use it as an input). I do not have any TPS related
problems
due to the ARC as it only looks at it at idle.
Any chances to
check the temp in the y-pipe ? (I used a cheap voltmeter with
thermo-wire and
adapter for this)
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Bob Forrest
To:
Team3S@team3s.com ; Team3S Racers
Cc:
Rick Pierce ;
Rick.Pierce@blueshieldca.com ;
robby@rtec.chSent: Saturday, October 25,
2003 1:03 AM
Subject: Team3S: Did another datalog...
I did a
couple of 2nd gear pulls and a couple in 3rd - mostly to ~6k (one up
to 6300,
none to redline).
I changed the A/F settings on the SAFC-II according to
the numbers I gave
Damon a while back (see below my sig), and the low
throttle point was at 10%
and the high *was* at 50%. Still the same
sucky results, although the car
feels OK. There's a lag still, and the
boost seems to come on late, but
strong - right up to 1 bar. See what
you can tell from the numbers,
please...
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102403a.tlg
14psi
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102403a.csv
14psi
I'm copying Roger, but he won't get this until I'm at the track for
the
weekend, I'm guessing...
TIA,
Forrest '91 VR-4,
13C's,
550s, 3" exhaust, Supra pump full, MBC @ 1 bar
-
-------------------------
High Throttle:
1000> -28, 1600> -25,
2200> -23, 2800> -20,
3400> -18, 4000> -18, 4600> -18,
5200> -18,
5800> -20, 6400> -25, 7000> -25, 7600>
-25.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 18:58:43
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Quick datalog analysis needed...
> But also a slapping piston
can cause such a "noise" or just everything
in
> the engine that moves
under power
I'm sure you know, but just to clarify (and for those that
don't know) -
that is the EXACT sound the knock sensor listens for.
When detonation /
pre-ignition occurs, that's exactly what happens, the
piston wobbles in
it's bore banging the cylinder walls. This ringing
sound is what the
knock sensor listens for...
-
-Cody
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:58:04
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Did another datalog...
Thanks, Roger.
I'm already running
copper plugs gapped at 0.032. This run is not on an open
road (no such
thing here), and it is in and out of rush hour traffic, which
starts mid
afternoon. I have to lay back until someone catches up to me then
zoom
ahead until I scare the guy that's 1/4 mile in front of me. Not the
best
way to log anything. I'm going to try a couple of new SAFC-II
setting that
Rick suggested, and run at .6 bar instead of 1 bar. Maybe
Rick can give me an
eval at the track tomorrow. I'm trying like hell to
run at the track, since
if I don't, I may lose all my points for the year
(I've got my ClassB almost
sewed up - it's almost mathematically impossible
for someone to catch me). I
need to get out there! I'm
freaked. And there's no way I could start
remembering 30 year old
lessons on how to hook up a thermocouple to a
voltmeter. ;-)
That's if I could even remember where that stuff is..., in
my
junkpile... I'm just going to have to keep tweaking the SAFC-II and
hope I
can hit that zero knock again. We found it once, so it's gotta
be there
somewhere. At least I'm glad I'm not dealing with a motor
mount issue too -
thanks for eliminating that
variable.
Best,
Forrest
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
> Bob,
.... I don't like the log ... knock allover the rpm even on part
>
throttle.
> I looked at 06:44 :
> - Timing imediatly gets redarded
in two steps as knock occurs
> - Timing rises as knock goes down ->
knock rises again
> With this you can eliminate the idea of something
ratteling or a motor
mount. It' is timing related knock so the problem
belongs to the combustion in
the cylinders.
> IMHO, step down the boost
first until the problem is solved. I had the same
picture on a 92 3000GT that
had knock at 0,85 bars. The cure at this time were
new spark plugs regapped
to 0.032. Unfortunately, our plugs seem to get a
wider gap over time and this
is why knock came back, but less than before (i.e
always between 7 -13 at
0.95 bars)
> I don't see that fuel is a problem. Not the injectors nor the
fuel pressure.
> Otherwise O2 would drop.
> What's going on with the
TPS ? Why up to 95% and then down. Also on other
pulls like 13:40 ... knock
and a little strange IDC curve ... why's that ?
IMHO, there is something with
the TPS that gives input to the ECU and the
S-AFC (if you use it as an
input). I do not have any TPS related problems due
to the ARC as it only
looks at it at idle.
> Any chances to check the temp in the y-pipe ? (I
used a cheap voltmeter with
thermo-wire and adapter for this)
> Roger
G.
> 93 & 96 3000GT TT
>
www.rtec.ch>
>
>
> -----
Original Message -----
> From: Bob Forrest
> To:
Team3S@team3s.com ; Team3S Racers
>
Cc: Rick Pierce ;
Rick.Pierce@blueshieldca.com ;
robby@rtec.ch> Sent: Saturday, October
25, 2003 1:03 AM
> Subject: Team3S: Did another
datalog...
>
>
> I did a couple of 2nd gear pulls and a couple
in 3rd - mostly to ~6k (one up
> to 6300, none to
redline).
>
> I changed the A/F settings on the SAFC-II according to
the numbers I gave
> Damon a while back (see below my sig), and the low
throttle point was at 10%
> and the high *was* at 50%. Still the
same sucky results, although the car
> feels OK. There's a lag
still, and the boost seems to come on late, but
> strong - right up to 1
bar. See what you can tell from the numbers,
>
please...
>
>
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102403a.tlg
14psi
>
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/102403a.csv
14psi
>
> I'm copying Roger, but he won't get this until I'm at the
track for the
> weekend, I'm guessing...
>
>
TIA,
>
> Forrest '91 VR-4,
> 13C's, 550s, 3" exhaust, Supra
pump full, MBC @ 1 bar
> -------------------------
> High
Throttle:
> 1000> -28, 1600> -25, 2200> -23, 2800>
-20,
> 3400> -18, 4000> -18, 4600> -18, 5200> -18,
>
5800> -20, 6400> -25, 7000> -25, 7600>
-25.
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:07:44
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: loss of boost
Sounds like you have really old spark plugs and too
much pressure /
boost is causing them to blow out... Try changing them,
gapping to .036,
and trying again... Almost put money on it that's
why...
- -Cody
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
Behalf
> Of Zach Sauerman
>
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 3:05 PM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Team3S: loss of boost
>
> Good afternoon everyone!
>
I have a boost problem. When I ask for upwards of 10psi, the car has
>
serious
> problems. She accelerates fine up to just shy of 8-10psi, then
hits a
> wall.
> At that point, the boost fluctuates and spikes,
unable to hold what
she's
> got until I back off.
> The car idles
normally. It drives normally until I ask for all that
boost.
> There is
not an engine light when this happens. The engine is subject
to
> this
malfunction because it will loose power, then try again- feeling
>
about
> the same as if you were to pulse the throttle with the clutch
fully
> engaged.
> If I roll on slow, the problem happens, but not
as harsh as if I were
> aksing
> for boost RIGHT NOW.
> The
BOV tests OK IAW the service manual.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:12:48
-0700
From: "James Mutton" <
james@playstream.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Fuel Pressure and AFR
Let's do the math. :)
According to
Jeff L's site: When the base fuel line pressure is
different than the rated
injector pressure, then the injectors will flow
differently than rated
according the following formula. Fn = Fo x
SQRT(Pn/Po)
Drawing from
his calculator we can figure that at 100% IDC a 360cc
injector will inject
360cc per minute at 43 psi (obviously) and only
320cc per minute at 34
psi. We'll come back to this later.
Going through the math we know
that a single of our 6 cylinders (2972 cc
motor / 6 cylinders = .4953 liters
per cylinder) contains about .4617
grams (mass) of air at 15 psi with an 85%
natural efficiency. Now we
need to calculate the necessary pulse width
to maintain an 11.5:1 Ration
at the rated injector output.
Fuel has an
average density of 6 pounds per gallon or, 143.6 grams per
liter, or .1436
grams per cc. With .4617 grams of air to deal with we
need .0401 grams
of fuel or 46.54 ms of pulse width from a 360cc
injector (injecting .006 cc
per ms [or] .0008616 grams per ms) in order
to maintain an AFR of
11.5:1.
Assuming nothing changes from the pulse width, in other words
assuming
the computer makes the same calculation of how long to keep
the
injectors open you would have a slightly different AFR. We saw
above
that at 34 psi the injectors are really injecting 320cc per minute,
this
works out to .0054 cc per ms [or] .0007754 grams per ms. It the
same
46.54 ms, instead of injecting the needed .0401 grams of fuel you
would
have injected 0.0361 grams of fuel (I'm rounding on a bunch of
numbers
so this could be as little as .03542 grams). With the same
.4617 grams
of air to deal with you now have a fuel ratio of
12.8:1.
Your graph never went that high during the time period you
mention. It
may have taken a while to explain it but I'd say Yes the
computer must
expect some kind of fuel volume limitations. The math
really served to
tell us exactly how much to expect in AFR change from the
pressure
change alone. Since your AFR didn't change as much as we'd
expect all
things being equal the ECU must be increasing the pulse width
to
introduce more fuel.
- -James
95 Green VR4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Gross, Erik
[mailto:erik.gross@intel.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 1:39 PM
To:
Team3S List (E-mail)
Subject: Team3S: Fuel Pressure and AFR
I
finally got my hands on a wide-band O2 sensor and a datalogger and
have been
playing around a bit with my VR-4. As some of you may
remember, I have
observed a significant loss (8-12psi) of fuel pressure
in the high-RPM range
under full throttle. This represents a 13.5% to
20.3% loss in fuel
pressure when running 14psi of boost. I would think
that this would be
significant enough to cause a change in AFR if the
fuel maps (open-loop) do
not compensate for it.
Here's what I found:
http://www.team3s.com/~egross/Temp/3rdGearPull.gifThis
is a 3rd gear pull up a pretty steep hill from about 50mph
(3300RPM).
I'm still in the process of hooking up other things to
datalog (RPM, boost,
fuel pressure, IDC, etc.), so the only thing on the
graph is AFR over
time. The 2sec mark is about where I floored it, and
the spike at 14sec
is when I lifted off the throttle, at a hair over
7000RPM.
I watched
my differential fuel pressure gauge during this pull, and
around 4500RPM, I
started to lose fuel pressure. It was at 44psi to
start out with, and
was down to 34psi or a hair lower by redline. Note
that this is
*differential* fuel pressure, which in an ideal world,
would stay pinned at
43-45psi.
Note the AFR graph, and the fact that for the last 6 seconds of
the run
(probably 4500RPM onward), the AFR stays pretty darned close to
11.5:1.
If the OEM fuel maps didn't expect this loss of fuel pressure, then
I
would expect the AFR to rise toward the end of the graph. AFAIK,
the
ECU knows nothing of fuel pressure and gets no EGO feedback during
these
conditions, so I think the only way the AFR would stay this solid is
if
the OEM ECU maps were created with this loss of fuel pressure in
mind.
Anybody got any other comments or thoughts? I'm beginning to
suspect
that the loss of fuel pressure I've seen at high RPM in my car is
an
"undocumented feature" rather than a "bug".
Relevant Specs
Of My Car:
- --------------------------
1995 VR-4, 73000mi
OEM fuel
pump
OEM 360cc injectors
OEM FPR
New Fuel Filter
Boost Controller at
0.95kg (14psi)
Downpipe, OEM main cat
OEM O2 sensors, verified to be
ok
Water Injection (Aquamist 2s)
RDR Fuel Pump Rewire
-
--------------------------
- --Erik
'95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:53:28
-0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Fuel Pressure and AFR
Great mathematical breakdown
James!
Now, considering the time
available:
rev 1
min 1
cycle
cycle
rpm cycle
- --- *
------ * -------- =
------- ==> ------- =
------
min 60 sec
2 rev
sec
120 sec
Inverting this
result gives sec (or ms here) per cycle. For each 1000
rpm
block:
1000 rpm = 120ms
2000 rpm = 60ms
3000 rpm =
40ms
4000 rpm = 30ms
5000 rpm = 24ms
6000 rpm = 20ms
7000 rpm =
17ms
So, from your statement indicating that we need 46.5ms to supply
enough fuel
to get the desired AFR, even at 100% duty cycle we're falling
short above
~2500 rpm. Is one of us grossly miscalculating, or does
airflow fall off
dramatically at higher rpm's maybe?
Ken Stanton
91
Pearl White Stealth TT
Starving for afuelsystem
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "James Mutton" <
james@playstream.com>
To: "Team3S
List (E-mail)" <
team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Friday,
October 24, 2003 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fuel Pressure and
AFR
>
> Let's do the math. :)
>
> According to
Jeff L's site: When the base fuel line pressure is
> different than the
rated injector pressure, then the injectors will flow
> differently than
rated according the following formula. Fn = Fo x
>
SQRT(Pn/Po)
>
> Drawing from his calculator we can figure that at
100% IDC a 360cc
> injector will inject 360cc per minute at 43 psi
(obviously) and only
> 320cc per minute at 34 psi. We'll come back
to this later.
>
> Going through the math we know that a single of
our 6 cylinders (2972 cc
> motor / 6 cylinders = .4953 liters per
cylinder) contains about .4617
> grams (mass) of air at 15 psi with an 85%
natural efficiency. Now we
> need to calculate the necessary pulse
width to maintain an 11.5:1 Ration
> at the rated injector
output.
>
> Fuel has an average density of 6 pounds per gallon or,
143.6 grams per
> liter, or .1436 grams per cc. With .4617 grams of
air to deal with we
> need .0401 grams of fuel or 46.54 ms of pulse width
from a 360cc
> injector (injecting .006 cc per ms [or] .0008616 grams per
ms) in order
> to maintain an AFR of 11.5:1.
>
> Assuming
nothing changes from the pulse width, in other words assuming
> the
computer makes the same calculation of how long to keep the
> injectors
open you would have a slightly different AFR. We saw above
> that at
34 psi the injectors are really injecting 320cc per minute, this
> works
out to .0054 cc per ms [or] .0007754 grams per ms. It the same
>
46.54 ms, instead of injecting the needed .0401 grams of fuel you would
>
have injected 0.0361 grams of fuel (I'm rounding on a bunch of numbers
>
so this could be as little as .03542 grams). With the same .4617
grams
> of air to deal with you now have a fuel ratio of
12.8:1.
>
> Your graph never went that high during the time period
you mention. It
> may have taken a while to explain it but I'd say
Yes the computer must
> expect some kind of fuel volume limitations.
The math really served to
> tell us exactly how much to expect in AFR
change from the pressure
> change alone. Since your AFR didn't
change as much as we'd expect all
> things being equal the ECU must be
increasing the pulse width to
> introduce more
fuel.
>
>
> -James
> 95 Green
VR4
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gross, Erik
[mailto:erik.gross@intel.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 1:39
PM
> To: Team3S List (E-mail)
> Subject: Team3S: Fuel Pressure and
AFR
>
>
> I finally got my hands on a wide-band O2 sensor and
a datalogger and
> have been playing around a bit with my VR-4. As
some of you may
> remember, I have observed a significant loss (8-12psi)
of fuel pressure
> in the high-RPM range under full throttle. This
represents a 13.5% to
> 20.3% loss in fuel pressure when running 14psi of
boost. I would think
> that this would be significant enough to
cause a change in AFR if the
> fuel maps (open-loop) do not compensate for
it.
>
> Here's what I found:
http://www.team3s.com/~egross/Temp/3rdGearPull.gif>
>
This is a 3rd gear pull up a pretty steep hill from about 50mph
>
(3300RPM). I'm still in the process of hooking up other things to
>
datalog (RPM, boost, fuel pressure, IDC, etc.), so the only thing on the
>
graph is AFR over time. The 2sec mark is about where I floored it,
and
> the spike at 14sec is when I lifted off the throttle, at a hair
over
> 7000RPM.
>
> I watched my differential fuel pressure
gauge during this pull, and
> around 4500RPM, I started to lose fuel
pressure. It was at 44psi to
> start out with, and was down to 34psi
or a hair lower by redline. Note
> that this is *differential* fuel
pressure, which in an ideal world,
> would stay pinned at
43-45psi.
>
> Note the AFR graph, and the fact that for the last 6
seconds of the run
> (probably 4500RPM onward), the AFR stays pretty
darned close to 11.5:1.
> If the OEM fuel maps didn't expect this loss of
fuel pressure, then I
> would expect the AFR to rise toward the end of the
graph. AFAIK, the
> ECU knows nothing of fuel pressure and gets no
EGO feedback during these
> conditions, so I think the only way the AFR
would stay this solid is if
> the OEM ECU maps were created with this loss
of fuel pressure in mind.
>
> Anybody got any other comments or
thoughts? I'm beginning to suspect
> that the loss of fuel pressure
I've seen at high RPM in my car is an
> "undocumented feature" rather than
a "bug".
>
> Relevant Specs Of My Car:
>
--------------------------
> 1995 VR-4, 73000mi
> OEM fuel
pump
> OEM 360cc injectors
> OEM FPR
> New Fuel Filter
>
Boost Controller at 0.95kg (14psi)
> Downpipe, OEM main cat
> OEM O2
sensors, verified to be ok
> Water Injection (Aquamist 2s)
> RDR
Fuel Pump Rewire
> --------------------------
>
>
--Erik
> '95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V2
#283
***************************************
