Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, October 22 2003
Volume 02 : Number
281
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:39:47 -0400
From: Marc Jonathan Jacobs <
Marc.J.Jacobs@alcatel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Blinking Tour and Sport Lights
John Adams has directions on
his website to make plastic covers for the ECS
harness. I had some
problems, fixed them and made the same covers. Works like
a champ
& now I have no fears leaning on them. I highly reccommend them, they
are cheap protection.
http://www.vr4stealth.com/strut_wiring_shield_mod.htm-
--
- --
Marc J. Jacobs '94 Blue VR-4
xDSL Hardware
Development
Alcatel, USA (919)
850-6386
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:16:05
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: A different question on rotors
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>
--------------snip---------->
> This is one of the arguments that Geoff
hammers me about concerning cross
drilled rotors - he and many others believe
that crossdriling decreases the
mass of the rotor and compromises the
structural integrity. I think it
assists in air flow through the vents
(what you called "baffles", and improves
cooling.
> There is a similar
argument against turning rotors unless they are very
warped. Cutting
the rotor surface reduces its mass and total capacity for
heat. I like
to have rotors faced off with a very light cut to decrease
surface
non-uniformities, but many people do not ever turn their rotors.
> I have
been running cryoed, non-crossdrilled rotors (from Geoff) for a
couple of
events for comparison.
> Chuck Willis
-
--------------------------->
The "folly" of cross-drilling or slotting
was also pointed out by list member
Andie Lin (formerly of Carbotech, now
with his own brake company, Cobalt
Friction) in a discussion a couple of
years ago on the Team3S Racers list. He
pointed to a link on the
Porsche website (which I can no longer find) where
the Porsche brake
specialists discussed their rotor offerings. To paraphrase,
they said
the same thing: The greater mass of solid rotors give the best
stopping
performance and are less prone to warp or crack. BUT, they added,
that
since it was such a popular misconception that drilling or slotting
was
better (and it's admittedly prettier), they were not going to give up
those
potential sales - since most Porsche buyers *want* slotted/drilled
rotors.
They tested various ways to minimize the many negative effects of
slotting or
drilling, and found that the 2nd best design (compared to solid
rotors) was a
rotor with holes *cast* in it (NOT drilled at all!) and then
smoothed out with
a special drill which softened all sharp edges.
Porsche doesn't sell
"drilled" rotors, they sell both solid rotors, and
rotors with holes "cast" in
them.
Everyone who has run with ET and I
at the various NorCal tracks where we've
run our '94 Stealth Base *know* that
we run at redline pretty much for each
session. (I almost caught Ann's
TT *twice* this past Thursday at
Thunderhill - in a Base Stealth; and I was
turning under- 2:29 times at
Buttonwillow this past 10/18-10/19
weekend). Yes..., we have learned not to
use the brakes as much, and to
get past the "pucker factor" which
less-experienced drivers haven't reached
yet, but we DO regularly stand on the
brakes and cook them pretty good.
Yet we went through an entire season of
*both* of us using the car, and
lending it to other friends to run at the
track, (2+ seasons in 1) with only
ONE change of pads. Solid rotors, using
both Porterfield R4 and R4-S
pads. And it's the same stock rotor that came
with the car in 1994 -
never turned nor surfaced. No cracking, no warping,
just stopping
power.
On my VR-4, however..., still using the damned Stillen X-drilled
rotors that
came with it, we chew through pads like crazy (6 weekend events
between pad
changes, maybe?). I just can't wait for Geoff to put in my
Big Reds so I can
switch to a good old SOLID Porterfield or Supra
rotor. I don't care what the
*sales-speak* is from the various
manufacturers/vendors of cross-drilled
rotors is - you can't argue with the
physics of it all: Removing 15% of the
metal by drilling it out means
you will heat up 15% faster. That's a simple,
logical FACT. Also
obvious is the loss of structural integrity cause by
drilling or
slotting. Who *cares* if holes "wick out" heat? That just
creates
an unevenly heated surface. Who *cares* if a "holed" design gets rid
of
brake dust? It's extra dust that was created by drilling in the
first
place. If I had an Indy car or a NASCAR ride where the rotors
were changed by
a crew every 100 miles, maybe I wouldn't care if I ate
through brakes faster.
But I don't own one of those cars...
I'm
sticking with solid rotors. And science.
-
--Forrest
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:35:13
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Confirmed wheels
- ----- Original Message -----
From:
"Damien" <
dabinch@actionsd.com>
> A while
back someone posted a link to a website that listed wheels that fit
our
cars. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, could you please fill
me
in? Thanks.
- ---------------------->
The Tire Rack
website shows about 50 different wheel choices that fit, BUT...
you should
enter the DOHC NON-turbo model (3000GT SL or Stealth RT) when it
asks you for
which model you own. If you enter the base or turbo models, it
will
show you only about 5 wheels IIRC...
www.tirerack.com-
--Forrest
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:49:20
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: A different question on rotors
FWIW. :)
From:
http://www.buybrakes.com/brembo/faq.html"Brembo
has extensively studied and tested cross-drilling versus casting the holes in
place and found no significant effect on performance or durability."
"The
main advantages of drilled and slotted discs are the same: increased brake
"bite", and a continuous refreshing of the brake pad surface. Drilled discs have
the additional advantage of being lighter and running cooler. However, there are
certain pad materials that should not be used with a drilled
disc."
"Braking generates heat, and the more heat the disc can absorb and
dissipate, the greater the fade resistance of the system. Additionally, the use
of a larger disc generally results in a larger effective radius, which increases
brake torque."
Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Team3S" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Cc: "Willis,
Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>;
"fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>; <
wpluim@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday,
October 21, 2003 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: A different question on
rotors
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:02:54
-0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: A different question on rotors
..and then there's me, Mr
No-Brake-Problems.
I ran (on my base NT) with cross drilled rotors, Stillen
pads,
for almost two years, 12+ road race events, and probably 10K
street
miles
to boot. No problems, braked as hard as I wanted, no fade,
no
overheating.
(Except for initial bedding at my first track event)
This combination gave me the best pedal feel and repeatable
braking
distances.
After two sets of pads, I turned them, and bang,
they began cracking.
Also switched
to R4 Pads, which did brake harder but
not quite as predictably.
Now using R4 pads on my VR4 1st gen with nearly
new stock rotors, and
the
feel is ok, but I may try slotted or drilled
once more when I have my
cooling
systems set up.
So,
esp on the street, drilled or slotted are fine. If you are going to
use them
for for street and track, and don't want to get a separate set then
you
probably
want to stay with street / track pads, and just use more
force for
harder braking,
vs higher friction pads. Definitely consider
cooling ducts or fans as
well.
The bottom line is individual
preference in how hard and how hot your
braking
style gets your brakes
will determine if you can use the better feel and
streetability of
drilled or slotted rotors vs solid.
Kurt
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Bob Forrest
Sent: Tuesday,
October 21, 2003 12:16 PM
To: Team3S
Cc: Willis, Charles E.; fastmax;
wpluim@comcast.netSubject: Re: Team3S:
A different question on rotors
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>
--------------snip---------->
> This is one of the arguments that Geoff
hammers me about concerning
> cross
drilled rotors - he and many
others believe that crossdriling decreases
the mass of the rotor and
compromises the structural integrity. I think
it assists in air flow
through the vents (what you called "baffles", and
improves cooling.
>
There is a similar argument against turning rotors unless they are
>
very
warped. Cutting the rotor surface reduces its mass and total
capacity
for heat. I like to have rotors faced off with a very light
cut to
decrease surface non-uniformities, but many people do not ever
turn
their rotors.
> I have been running cryoed, non-crossdrilled
rotors (from Geoff) for a
couple of events for comparison.
> Chuck
Willis
- --------------------------->
The "folly" of cross-drilling
or slotting was also pointed out by list
member Andie Lin (formerly of
Carbotech, now with his own brake company,
Cobalt
Friction) in a
discussion a couple of years ago on the Team3S Racers
list. He pointed
to a link on the Porsche website (which I can no
longer find) where the
Porsche brake specialists discussed their rotor
offerings. To
paraphrase, they said the same thing: The greater mass
of solid rotors
give the best stopping performance and are less prone to
warp or crack.
BUT, they added, that since it was such a popular
misconception that drilling
or slotting was better (and it's admittedly
prettier), they were not going to
give up those potential sales - since
most Porsche buyers *want*
slotted/drilled rotors. They tested various
ways to minimize the many
negative effects of slotting or drilling, and
found that the 2nd best design
(compared to solid rotors) was a rotor
with holes *cast* in it (NOT drilled
at all!) and then smoothed out with
a special drill which softened all sharp
edges. Porsche doesn't sell
"drilled" rotors, they sell both solid
rotors, and rotors with holes
"cast" in them.
Everyone who has run
with ET and I at the various NorCal tracks where
we've run our '94 Stealth
Base *know* that we run at redline pretty much
for each session. (I
almost caught Ann's TT *twice* this past Thursday
at Thunderhill - in a Base
Stealth; and I was turning under- 2:29 times
at Buttonwillow this past
10/18-10/19 weekend). Yes..., we have learned
not to use the brakes as
much, and to get past the "pucker factor" which
less-experienced drivers
haven't reached yet, but we DO regularly stand
on the brakes and cook them
pretty good. Yet we went through an entire
season of
*both* of us
using the car, and lending it to other friends to run at
the track, (2+
seasons in 1) with only ONE change of pads. Solid
rotors, using both
Porterfield R4 and R4-S pads. And it's the same
stock rotor that came
with the car in 1994 - never turned nor surfaced.
No cracking, no warping,
just stopping power.
On my VR-4, however..., still using the damned
Stillen X-drilled rotors
that came with it, we chew through pads like crazy
(6 weekend events
between pad changes, maybe?). I just can't wait for
Geoff to put in my
Big Reds so I can switch to a good old SOLID Porterfield
or Supra rotor.
I don't care what the
*sales-speak* is from the various
manufacturers/vendors of cross-drilled
rotors is - you can't argue with the
physics of it all: Removing 15% of
the metal by drilling it out means
you will heat up 15% faster. That's
a simple, logical FACT. Also
obvious is the loss of structural
integrity cause by drilling or
slotting. Who *cares* if holes "wick
out" heat? That just creates
an unevenly heated surface. Who *cares*
if a "holed" design gets rid of
brake dust? It's extra dust that was
created by drilling in the first
place. If I had an Indy car or a
NASCAR ride where the rotors were
changed by a crew every 100 miles,
maybe I wouldn't care if I ate through
brakes faster. But I don't own
one of those cars...
I'm sticking with
solid rotors. And science.
- --Forrest
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:35:10
-0700
From: "Edgar Francisco" <
francisco_edgar@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: 1991 Turbo engine needed
My turbo engine has a cracked engine
block. Is the non-turbo short block
usable? It is the same engine block,
right?
Thanks much,
edgar
91 VR-4 Pearl White 80K miles
FIPK
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:45:30
-0400
From: "Vedran" <
1994TT@comcast.net>
Subject: Team3S:
EGT gauge installation?????
Today I picked up an Auto Meter EGT
gauge. The instructions say that I
should install the probe 1-2 in from
the turbo. Where exactly should I
install it?? Between the head and the
turbo or after the turbo??? Should I
tap the probe in or should I use
the clamp to secure the probe to the
manifold?? Also I already have the
a boost and a air/fuel gauge so can I
just run a new wire to the
12 V
source for the boost gauge.
Thanks a lot
Vet 94
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:46:22
-0500
From: Christian Longtin <
Chriscooll@videotron.ca>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Transfer case not leaking ???
Hi everyone,
I went to
pay a little visit to the Mitsubishi dealer that did my recall
on the
transfer case and to my surprise there was nothing left there
anymore,
because they closed down the dealer. Since, the work was done at
the Acura
dealership, (because Mitsubishi didn't have there garage and it
was the same
owner), I went there to see what was going on. They just told
me that there
was no more Mitsu
and that I could go to another one about 30 more minutes
north.
They also fired the guy who was my contact there and that gave me my
recall
papers for the inspection. They were able to retrieve my inspection
report
ans send it by fax, but I didn't see it yet.
There's another
Mitsubishi dealer at about 1 hour away that's across the
border in Vermont
(burlington) who as been in place for many years.
Or the other one is
about 1 hour away too but in Canada and I don't think
they know much more
about my car than the other idiots that did my recall.
What sould I do
now, What are my realistic option and
most importantly with Who should I deal
now ???
Thanks
Christian Longtin
92 3000gt vr-4
- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Christian Longtin" <
Chriscooll@videotron.ca>
To:
<
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent:
Monday, October 13, 2003 9:28 PM
Subject: Team3S: Transfer case not leaking
???
> Hi everyone,
>
> Here's how it goes. Less than 3
months ago I went to the mitsubishi
> dealer for the recall on the
transfer case.
> (That dealer has been around for less than a
year)
>
> After waiting for more than 2 weeks to go there, first
excuse was that
there
> truck was stuck at the border and the next week
they said that there
> mechanic who was suppose to work on my car was
sick.
>
> So after all that, I finnaly brought my car in and they
said to me that
> there was a lot of oil and dripping but that it came
from the head cover.
So
> they said to me, that they were going to
change the oil in the transfer
case
> and that everything is
alright.
>
> We move on to 2 weeks ago. Since my second gear is a
bit notchy, I decided
> with the recommandation from you guys to put in
some
> Red Line oil. (MT-90 and MTL mix). (I did the all drivetrain oil
change)
So
> I went to take off the fill plug on the TC and it was
stripped (badly
> damaged) I had to use vise-grip to get it off. Then I
removed the drain
plug
> and there was a lot of metal shavings after
about only 800 miles since the
> mitsu rendez-vous. I also noticed that
there was absolutly no sign of a
leak
> from the head cover. The
exhaust manifold on the back on the engine didn't
> have a trace of oil on
it.
>
> Also, I noticed that my TC had some kind of silicone to
cover all the
lines
> so It wouldn't leak.
>
> So, I wiped
off the TC and took a picture off the silicone
> (or something
else).
> here's the link :
http://calypso.cstjean.qc.ca/u0152769/silicone.gif>
>
The oil on it actually comes from the oil pan. There was a lot of screws
>
that were loose. It's not as bad now but there is still a couple of them
I
> can't get to with all the stuff in the way.
>
> So, after
I did the oil changes. I took my car for a ride and the second
> gear felt
worse. I then didn't want to damaged the gears and didn't use it
> for a
week. I was waiting for the next weekend to add some oil in the
>
transmission. I did about 60 miles that day.
>
> After the week went
by (didn't touch at all the car) I put the car back on
> the ramps, and
went under the car to find this.
>
http://calypso.cstjean.qc.ca/u0152769/leaking1.gif>
http://calypso.cstjean.qc.ca/u0152769/leaking2.gif>
>
Now, looking at these pictures, it looks obvious with the red oil that
>
it really is the TC that is leaking.
>
> Since, i'm still a newbie I
don't know if just by seeing the leak or the
> silicone on the TC that it
should be replaced.
> But, I know for sure that there is no way that mitsu
took the TC out to
> inspect it. They also, didn't change the oil and they
told me a lot of
crap.
> I don't know if they did this because they
didn't receive the TC or
because
> they didn't have all the pieces to
change it and they were hoping I would
> never go under the
car.
>
> Now, my question is : by looking at these pictures is my
transfer case
good
> or bad or it needs to be inspected
?
>
> If it's obviously bad and should have been changed 3 months
ago, what are
my
> options ?
>
> Thanks for the
help
> Christian Longtin
> 1992 3000gt vr-4 : 107k miles and
leaking
>
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:51:29
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: A different question on rotors
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
>
FWIW. :)
> From:
http://www.buybrakes.com/brembo/faq.html-
---------------------------->
LOL! "FWIW" - ("For what it's worth"),
and we all KNOW "what it's worth" that
Brembo said it, don't we!?!
Advertisers don't lie. ;-) Oh, goody! Another
vendor
selling their own product. What do you expect them to say? I used
to
write advertising copy, so let me break down the TRUE meaning of these
quotes
for all of you..., one sentence at a time, the way the copywriter
*thinks*--
what it "SAYS", and what it "MEANS":
;-)
What it SAYS: "Brembo has extensively studied and
tested cross-drilling
versus casting the holes in place and found no
significant effect on
performance or durability.":
-
----------------
What it MEANS: "We saw a 30% failure rate on the
track, but since 97% of you
will never use these on the track, we don't
regard this flaw affecting 3% of
users to be *significant*. Most of you
won't notice the difference if our
drilled rotors warp when they're heated
up, since you'll be killed or arrested
if you ever run them that hard on the
street. Besides, it would cost us too
much to make them as good as
Porsche cast rotors, and you'd never buy them if
we told you that
anyway."
What it SAYS: "The main advantages of drilled and
slotted discs are the
same: increased brake "bite", and a continuous
refreshing of the brake pad
surface."
- ----------------
What it
MEANS: "This is very much to OUR advantage, because drilled
holes
'gouge' out the surface of the pad as they pass over them. The
'refreshing'
of the pad surface means that it wears away more quickly,
creating an
increasingly thinner pad with each use..., which is also to our
advantage--
The thinner pads will become hot much sooner, causing them to
crack and
crumble prematurely. Thusly, you'll have to buy our pads more
frequently,
making us more money."
What it SAYS: "Drilled
discs have the additional advantage of being lighter
and running
cooler."
- ----------------
What it MEANS: "We use less
material in our drilled rotors, which saves us a
great deal of money.
As long as the brakes are not applied, air passing over
the lesser-mass rotor
will keep it cooler, when compared to an undrilled rotor
at full mass.
Conversely, they will also heat up faster, since there is less
metal to
absorb heat, but we don't see the need to discuss that, since then
you won't
buy our product."
What it SAYS: "However, there are certain
pad materials that should not be
used with a drilled disc."
-
----------------
What it MEANS: "We have to cover our ass
here-- if you buy the pads we
recommend for the street and you use them
on the track, they will fail rather
quickly. In fact, so will most of
the track pads we sell as premium products.
BUT, if you are willing to spend
the $300 each for the custom-made
diamond-carborundum +++ pads we recommend
for extreme applications, you *may*
get the same results we did in our
testing sample. Or not."
What it SAYS: "Braking
generates heat, and the more heat the disc can absorb
and dissipate, the
greater the fade resistance of the system."
- ----------------
What it
MEANS: "This happens to be true, but we're not saying that
it
applies to our product - it's just a general fact. What we're
telling you
here is that our lower-mass rotor will absorb less heat, but you
probably
think that's a good thing, since we threw in this unrelated
factoid. We're
banking on the fact that you're as dumb as a rock, and
that you can't fathom
the significance of what we say - as long as we use the
right buzzwords to
hypnotize you. You'll believe *anything* we tell
you, as long as there is
water splashing or dust flying off the wheels in our
commercials."
What it SAYS: "Additionally, the use of a
larger disc generally results in a
larger effective radius, which increases
brake torque."
- ----------------
What it MEANS: "This
really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but...
We've got to plant
the subliminal seed of (whisper) *Upgrade, upgrade...* in
your tiny little
brain. You haven't a clue if 'increasing brake torque' is a
good thing,
but it sounds 'bigger', so dammit - we know you'll buy it. You
also
don't have the deductive powers to recognize that 'generally' can be
as
little as '51% of the time', which means that in the extreme case, 49% of
the
time the use of a larger disc will NOT result in a larger effective
radius.
And you don't know if that is a good thing either, but since we said
it, you
can trust us."
- ---
"Caveat Emptor", people... ("Let
the buyer beware").
Although I wrote the above commentary somewhat
"tongue-in-cheek", I'm really
telling you the facts about how a copywriter
thinks. I can't remember which
famous "ad man" said it - it was either
Bill Bernbach (Doyle Dane Bernbach) or
Jerry Della Femina (Young &
Rubicam) - but it is THE truth about that
business: "Advertising is all
about selling a product that people don't want,
don't need, and can't
afford. And making them feel good after they've bought
it, whether it's
useful or not." Advertisers CAN and WILL say *anything* to
sell their
product, including throwing a bunch of twisted facts at you until
you only
see the buzzwords, not the meaning. If the above quotes are the
best
Brembo can do, that cross-drilled, non-cast rotor must *really*
suck. IMHO...
;-)
Over and
out...
Forrest
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:19:58
-0600
From: "Greg Gonzales" <
92stealthtt@comcast.net>
Subject:
Team3S: intermittent ABS issue
For the past year my ABS light has come on
randomly. When this happens it
leaves the ABS pump, if there is such a thing,
running even when I shut off
the car. The only thing that seems to "fix" this
issue is when I remove the
large fuse under the hood for a peroid of time.
Then disconnect the battery,
then bolt down the fuse again then reconnect the
battery and then restart
the car, it runs through the 4 ABS flashes and it
runs fine and shuts off as
normal. Things will be fine for either a few days
or few months then the
same thing happens again.
Thoughts??
Greg
Gonzales
92 RT TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:05:27
-0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Turbo Timer with Headlight Auto-Shutoff
I finally got around to
resolving one of the "annoyances" of having a turbo timer: the fact that
if you shut the doors with the turbo timer running and the headlights on, then
headlights do not automatically shut off when then engine turns off.
The circuit uses 2 components and a few crimp-style electrical
connectors, and can be made for under $10. It works perfectly on my VR-4
with a Blitz Turbo Timer, and I've tested it out pretty thoroughly over the last
month or so.
Here is the web page with details:
http://www.team3s.com/~egross/3S/Mods/TT/TTLights/index.htmlOther
Turbo Timer Related Pages:
http://www.team3s.com/~egross/3S/Mods/TT/TTKeyless/index.htmlhttp://www.team3s.com/~egross/3S/Mods/TT/TTimer/index.htmlEnjoy!
-
--Erik
'95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:54:04
-0700
From: "Damien" <
dabinch@actionsd.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Another wheel question...sorry
I'm confused about what wheels
will fit my '93 VR-4. Does anyone know if
the following wheels will
work?
Wheels are 18x8.5 45 offset in front and 18x9.5 40 offset in
back.
Thanks for any help.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:15:13
-0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: A different question on rotors
> ..and then there's me, Mr
No-Brake-Problems.
> I ran (on my base NT) with cross drilled rotors,
Stillen pads,
> for almost two years, 12+ road race events, and probably
10K street
> miles to boot. No problems, braked as hard as I wanted, no
fade, no
> overheating. (Except for initial bedding at my first track
event)
HUH?!?!? WHAT???!!?!?! CROSS DRILLED ROTORS?!?! .......say it isnt
so! ;)
....looks like someone knows how NOT to use their brakes, in
turn this man
goes faster than most. :)
> Now using R4
pads on my VR4 1st gen with nearly new stock rotors, and
> the feel is ok,
but I may try slotted or drilled once more when I have my
> cooling
systems set up.
yeah those R4 pads are track only, not like the R4S
street/track pad
> So, esp on the street, drilled or slotted are
fine.
yep been saying that for years....just have to know how to brake
(or not)
;)
but hey....if you want to spend 3K on "big brakes" ill
take your
money....only after i try to talk you out of it
;)
> If you are going to
> use them
> for for street and
track, and don't want to get a separate set then you
> probably
>
want to stay with street / track pads, and just use more force for
>
harder braking,
that or R4S and OEM rotors.....or if you are PimpNHo like
me run Xdrilled
> The bottom line is individual preference in how
hard and how hot your
> braking
> style gets
........someone
that speaks with wisdom.
regards,
terry
"If it doesn't
make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:54:28
-0500
From: Rich Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: intermittent ABS issue
At 06:19 PM 10/21/03 -0600, Greg
Gonzales wrote:
>For the past year my ABS light has come on randomly. When
this happens it
>leaves the ABS pump, if there is such a thing, running
even when I shut off
>the car. The only thing that seems to "fix" this
issue is when I remove the
>large fuse under the hood for a peroid of
time. Then disconnect the battery,
>then bolt down the fuse again then
reconnect the battery and then restart
>the car, it runs through the 4 ABS
flashes and it runs fine and shuts off as
>normal. Things will be fine for
either a few days or few months then the
>same thing happens
again.
>Thoughts??
>
Been there, done that. Had the exact same
problem.
I was getting ready to start replacing ABS relays (there are two of
them,
one cheap, one expensive), when my pump quit running on and the light
went
off. It's been nearly a year since then. If it happens to you again,
take
out the circuit breaker, leave it out for a few days, drive the car,
and
put it back in. Like many things with our car, the problem may just go
away.
Rich/slow old poop/stranded in
Texas
AT.
AT.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:15:01
-0500
From: "Jesse Rink" <
jrink-3si@wi.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: alternator removal
Curious about this one...
I've found
the removal instructions for the alternator on Jeff L's website,
but for the
life of me, I can't find the same information in my 3/S Backup
CD
Manual. What's odd, is that it looks like Jeff's site uses diagrams
from
the manual, so why can't I find this in my manual? Anyone one the
page #'s
I need to be looking for?
I did find one thing in the manual
referring to GROUP 16 for the alternator,
but again, I can't seem to find
anything about GROUP 16 in my Backup CD
Manual. Any
clue?
Thanks
JRink
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:48:02
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: A different question on rotors
Science would be someone
actually measuring rotor temperatures with solid versus crossdrilled with the
same pads. Something like the NASCAR brake shop that Flash visited could
do. Short of that, this is conjecture or lore.
I am running solid
front rotors now and will have some sort of more educated opinion soon.
Right now I am concerned about how rapidly the Hawk Blue pads have eaten up the
rotor surface. And they are cryoed.
Also, I've been running Toyo tires
for the last couple of events to see if they wear better than the Yokos.
They don't seem to stick as well, even when I get them very hot as recommended
by a tire guy.
Chuck Willis
- -
I'm sticking with solid
rotors. And science.
- --Forrest
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 07:05:01
-0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: A different question on rotors
> Right now I am concerned
about how
> rapidly the Hawk Blue pads have eaten up the rotor
surface.
the blues are a very agressive, high temp compound they will eat
rotors if
they are not used in their operating temps (like most race
compounds)
regards,
terry
"If it doesn't make you go fast,
we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:09:59
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: A different question on rotors
I can guarantee they are
reaching their operating temperatures at the track. It is only 90 miles each way
to the track, and I am doing very little driving of the car outside the trip to
and from the track. We even trailered it there when I first installed the
pads. I am about to buy another set of pads and I think I am going back to
Carbotech Panther Plus.
Chuck Willis
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Grd4Spd Racing [mailto:grd4spdracing@cox.net]
Sent:
Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:05 AM
To: Team3S
Subject: RE: Team3S: A
different question on rotors
> Right now I am concerned about
how
> rapidly the Hawk Blue pads have eaten up the rotor
surface.
the blues are a very agressive, high temp compound they will eat
rotors if
they are not used in their operating temps (like most race
compounds)
regards,
terry
"If it doesn't make you go fast,
we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:33:32
-0400
From: "Williams, Tommy F" <
WilliamsTF@bernstein.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Park/Fog Lights both on Instructions
Does anyone know where I can
find the modification instructions for a 2nd
gen 3KGT to turn on the fog
lamps when the park lights are on???????
Thanks,
Tommy
'96
VR-4
- -----------------------------------------
The information
contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential
information and is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If
you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for
delivering this message to the intended recipient, any review, dissemination,
distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply
e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Please note that we do
not accept account orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and therefore will not
be responsible for carrying out such orders and/or
instructions.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:04:14
-0400
From: Mark Frouhar <
mfrouhar@bear.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: A different question on rotors
I'll second that. I had the
hawk blues on my TransAm for track duty, I cracked 5
rotors in a pretty short
amount of time before I got the hint. The Porterfield R4Es
have been
working pretty good for the small tracks around here. Haven't been
to
the Glen with them yet.
-Mark
Frouhar
85 TA 434 DFI T56
95
VR4
http://members.fbody.com/legoland/VR4.htmGrd4Spd
Racing wrote:
> > Right now I am concerned about
how
> > rapidly the Hawk Blue pads have eaten up the rotor
surface.
>
> the blues are a very agressive, high temp compound
they will eat rotors if
> they are not used in their operating temps (like
most race compounds)
>
> regards,
>
terry
***********************************************************************
Bear
Stearns is not responsible for any recommendation, solicitation,
offer or
agreement or any information about any transaction, customer
account or
account activity contained in this
communication.
***********************************************************************
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:28:08
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: A
different question on rotors
Stoptech has a pretty good FAQ section and
answers a few of the questions
asked on this list.
http://stoptech.com/faq/data/faq15.htmlhttp://www.stoptech.com/rotorcompare/rotorcomparison.htmI'm
in the process of spending even more money to convert my 13.5" Willwood
setup
over to the floating rotor setup as a result of my Spring Mountain
track
outing --- Thermal expansion is the enemy of big brakes. I have two of
the things
they recommend against doing --- large fixed rotors and stiff hats
with little or no
offset [ none in my case ].
FWIW --- somewhere in
the FAQ they say you can leave your aggressive track
pad in for a short time
on the street to 'turn' the rotors as you drive. They also
mention that left
in too long you can grind them down to
scrap.
Jim
Berry
=================================================
- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
To:
"Team3S" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Wednesday,
October 22, 2003 7:05 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: A different question on
rotors
> > Right now I am concerned about how
> >
rapidly the Hawk Blue pads have eaten up the rotor surface.
>
> the
blues are a very agressive, high temp compound they will eat rotors if
>
they are not used in their operating temps (like most race
compounds)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:59:14
-0500
From: "purdaddy" <
purdaddy@associatedsys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Park/Fog Lights both on Instructions
Tommy,
Try
this....
http://moojohn.com/stealth/fogmods/Working
like a charm for nearly a year now for me.
Good
Luck,
-Patrick
- -"The definition of insanity is doing the same
thing and expecting
different results."
Patrick Purviance
'94
Dodge Stealth R/T TT, Dark Green/Blk Leather
Open Air Filter, 1g DSM BOV,
ProBoost MCB, Blitz DATT, Indiglo Gauges
(even the center
ones)
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Williams, Tommy F
Sent:
Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:34 AM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Park/Fog
Lights both on Instructions
Does anyone know where I can find the
modification instructions for a
2nd gen 3KGT to turn on the fog lamps when
the park lights are on???????
Thanks,
Tommy
'96 VR-4
-
-----------------------------------------
The information contained in this
transmission may contain privileged
and confidential information and is
intended only for the use of the
person(s) named above. If you are not the
intended recipient, or an
employee or agent responsible for delivering this
message to the
intended recipient, any review, dissemination, distribution
or
duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are
not
the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately by
reply
e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Please note
that
we do not accept account orders and/or instructions by e-mail,
and
therefore will not be responsible for carrying out such orders
and/or
instructions.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:11:03
-0700
From: "James Mutton" <
james@playstream.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: alternator removal
Sounds like you're looking in the Chassis
Manual. Try the Electric
manual. Removal starts on page 16-12
(PDF page 458) of the Electrical
Manual. Installation is the same thing
in reverse. :) I just did this
last year, it's pretty easy.
-
-James
95 Green VR4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse
Rink [mailto:jrink-3si@wi.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 9:15
PM
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: Team3S: alternator removal
Curious
about this one...
I've found the removal instructions for the alternator
on Jeff L's
website, but for the life of me, I can't find the same
information in my
3/S Backup CD Manual. What's odd, is that it looks
like Jeff's site
uses diagrams from the manual, so why can't I find this in
my manual?
Anyone one the page #'s I need to be looking for?
I did
find one thing in the manual referring to GROUP 16 for the
alternator, but
again, I can't seem to find anything about GROUP 16 in
my Backup CD
Manual. Any clue?
Thanks
JRink
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:31:22
-0500
From: "Nick McDermott" <
eire1274@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Another wheel question...sorry
I purchased a set of 4 45mm offset wheels
for my project car. They do
NOT clear the brake calipers in the front,
and I am adding small spacers
to compensate for this.
My brakes appear
visibly to be stock, but I have strong suspicions that
a previous owner of
the car had the brakes upgraded to a bigger version
of the stock Sumitomo
calipers, so 45mm may clear in your case
perfectly.
Nick
McDermott
93 VR-4 (Most likely mothballed until spring.)
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Damien
Sent: Tuesday,
October 21, 2003 7:54 PM
To: 3S List
Subject: Team3S: Another wheel
question...sorry
I'm confused about what wheels will fit my '93
VR-4. Does anyone know
if
the following wheels will work?
Wheels
are 18x8.5 45 offset in front and 18x9.5 40 offset in back.
Thanks for any
help.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:45:12
-0400
From: "Gene Calarco" <
gac@clifton.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: A different question on rotors
So after all the discussion on
rotor technology we are still back to square
1. Science would tell us
to use the 108.00 a piece stock Mitsu rotor from
the dealer over the drilled
and slotted HP rotors for 180.00 a piece. Are
the less expensive OEM
rotors just as good at 1/2 the price say 70.00 a
piece? Pep Boys?
AutoZone? Ebay? If so has anyone tried any that have
measured up?
If it's a good idea to change the rotors every time you change
break pads
then why spend the extra $$ for street use when they the less
expensive ones
should do the job and will crack and warp just as fast as the
expensive
ones. If OEM means requiring the rotor manufacture to meet the
original
road and highway safety standards then I can't see using the more
expensive
choices for only a marginal improvement in break ware
and
performance.
Eugene
92'DOHC NT
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Cc: "Jeff Lucius"
<
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Sent:
Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: A different question
on rotors
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff
Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
>
>
>
> FWIW. :)
> > From:
http://www.buybrakes.com/brembo/faq.html>
---------------------------->
> LOL! "FWIW" - ("For what it's
worth"), and we all KNOW "what it's worth"
that
> Brembo said it, don't
we!?! Advertisers don't lie. ;-) Oh, goody!
Another
>
vendor selling their own product. What do you expect them to say? I
used
to
> write advertising copy, so let me break down the TRUE meaning
of these
quotes
> for all of you..., one sentence at a time, the way
the copywriter
*thinks*--
> what it "SAYS", and what it
"MEANS": ;-)
>
>
> What it SAYS:
"Brembo has extensively studied and tested cross-drilling
> versus casting
the holes in place and found no significant effect on
> performance or
durability.":
> ----------------
> What it MEANS: "We
saw a 30% failure rate on the track, but since 97% of
you
> will never
use these on the track, we don't regard this flaw affecting 3%
of
>
users to be *significant*. Most of you won't notice the difference if
our
> drilled rotors warp when they're heated up, since you'll be killed
or
arrested
> if you ever run them that hard on the street.
Besides, it would cost us
too
> much to make them as good as Porsche
cast rotors, and you'd never buy them
if
> we told you that
anyway."
>
> What it SAYS: "The main advantages of
drilled and slotted discs are the
> same: increased brake "bite", and a
continuous refreshing of the brake pad
> surface."
>
----------------
> What it MEANS: "This is very much to OUR
advantage, because drilled
holes
> 'gouge' out the surface of the pad
as they pass over them. The
'refreshing'
> of the pad surface
means that it wears away more quickly, creating an
> increasingly thinner
pad with each use..., which is also to our
advantage--
> The thinner
pads will become hot much sooner, causing them to crack and
> crumble
prematurely. Thusly, you'll have to buy our pads more frequently,
>
making us more money."
>
> What it SAYS: "Drilled discs
have the additional advantage of being
lighter
> and running
cooler."
> ----------------
> What it MEANS: "We use
less material in our drilled rotors, which saves
us a
> great deal of
money. As long as the brakes are not applied, air passing
over
>
the lesser-mass rotor will keep it cooler, when compared to an
undrilled
rotor
> at full mass. Conversely, they will also heat
up faster, since there is
less
> metal to absorb heat, but we don't see
the need to discuss that, since
then
> you won't buy our
product."
>
> What it SAYS: "However, there are certain
pad materials that should not
be
> used with a drilled disc."
>
----------------
> What it MEANS: "We have to cover our ass
here-- if you buy the pads we
> recommend for the street and you use
them on the track, they will fail
rather
> quickly. In fact, so
will most of the track pads we sell as premium
products.
> BUT, if you
are willing to spend the $300 each for the custom-made
>
diamond-carborundum +++ pads we recommend for extreme applications,
you
*may*
> get the same results we did in our testing sample. Or
not."
>
> What it SAYS: "Braking generates heat, and the
more heat the disc can
absorb
> and dissipate, the greater the fade
resistance of the system."
> ----------------
> What it
MEANS: "This happens to be true, but we're not saying that
it
> applies to our product - it's just a general fact. What we're
telling you
> here is that our lower-mass rotor will absorb less heat, but
you probably
> think that's a good thing, since we threw in this unrelated
factoid.
We're
> banking on the fact that you're as dumb as a rock, and
that you can't
fathom
> the significance of what we say - as long as we
use the right buzzwords to
> hypnotize you. You'll believe
*anything* we tell you, as long as there is
> water splashing or dust
flying off the wheels in our commercials."
>
> What it
SAYS: "Additionally, the use of a larger disc generally
results
in a
> larger effective radius, which increases brake
torque."
>
> ----------------
> What it MEANS:
"This really has nothing to do with the topic at hand,
but...
> We've
got to plant the subliminal seed of (whisper) *Upgrade,
upgrade...*
in
> your tiny little brain. You haven't a clue if
'increasing brake torque'
is a
> good thing, but it sounds 'bigger', so
dammit - we know you'll buy it.
You
> also don't have the deductive
powers to recognize that 'generally' can be
as
> little as '51% of the
time', which means that in the extreme case, 49% of
the
> time the use
of a larger disc will NOT result in a larger effective
radius.
> And
you don't know if that is a good thing either, but since we said
it,
you
> can trust us."
> ---
>
> "Caveat Emptor",
people... ("Let the buyer beware").
>
> Although I wrote the
above commentary somewhat "tongue-in-cheek", I'm
really
> telling you
the facts about how a copywriter thinks. I can't remember
which
>
famous "ad man" said it - it was either Bill Bernbach (Doyle Dane
Bernbach)
or
> Jerry Della Femina (Young & Rubicam) - but it is THE truth about
that
> business: "Advertising is all about selling a product that
people don't
want,
> don't need, and can't afford. And making
them feel good after they've
bought
> it, whether it's useful or
not." Advertisers CAN and WILL say *anything*
to
> sell their
product, including throwing a bunch of twisted facts at you
until
> you
only see the buzzwords, not the meaning. If the above quotes are
the
best
> Brembo can do, that cross-drilled, non-cast rotor must
*really* suck.
IMHO...
> ;-)
>
> Over and
out...
>
> Forrest
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V2
#281
***************************************
