Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Monday, October 6
2003 Volume 02 : Number 269
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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:46:07 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Turbo Timer and OEM Keyless Entry (Success!)
It turns out that the ETACS unit disables the keyless entry functionality
if the accessory (ACC) circuit receives power from the ignition switch. If you
make the TT not power the ACC circuit, then keyless works.
Pictures, Schematics, and Instructions here:
Keyless entry section is at the bottom.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:36:35 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: "Andy
C" <
acarberry@snet.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Stilling running bad
Well my 93 VR4 is not running right. I first noticed the
problem when I
was in Rochester, NY. I felt a slight bog on initial
take off but it
cleared --- or I think this was the problem starting. It got
worst as time
went on. Now I it will start idle fine but as soon as you apply
gas it
hesitates and bogs. I'm wondering now it if could be a blow out spark
plug
or a plug wire that is going. I know from a past experience with
another
car that had this problem and it ended up being a plug wire ( almost
new
too). I took apart the idler motor and cleaned the carbon/oil
residue on
the plunger, from another person's hunch. Since I haven't driven
it in about
a month I don't know if it clears up after a while, but it did
before.
I'm open to any other ideas too. But I'm betting on the plug
wire or a bad
plug -- both which are just over a year old.
Andy
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:21:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Margrave <
davidma@eskimo.com>
Subject: Team3S:
antenna repair
If you've had any trouble with your own power antenna, you may get a
kick
out of the lengths a stubborn person like me will go to to avoid
shelling
out $300 for a new power antenna:
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:24:14 -0400
From: "Gene Calarco" <
gac@clifton.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Intermintant Missfire of cylinder 1-4
Well Bob you may be on to something here. I have not had the time to
t/s
the ground problem yet, too much going on now, but I let the tank get
down
to near empty, then went to Amoco and put in 10.00 worth of Ultimate,
93
Octane, tossed in the remainder of the booster (1/4 of a bottle) and
said
lets see what happens..... after two days of normal
back/forth to work I
believe the misfire is improving. I am getting
better acceleration much
less stumble and when I get on it much better
power.... A slight misfire
is still present between 1800 - 2500
RPMs but not anything like the one
last week.
Conclusion - My favorite gas station must have been selling me regular
from
the premium pump. I will let this tank empty out then fill up with
Amoco
Ultimate to see if it keeps getting better. How long
would you think it
will take to completely smooth out? Or am I
still looking at a ground
problem at the PTM?
Eugene
92'DOHC NT
------------------------------
Check the TPS (throttle position sensor) with an analog ohmeter. you should
get a smooth change in resistance from one end to the other. if not, this
can cause misfire at the same approximate position of the throttle pedal.
It may or may not cause a CEL (check engine light).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:57:24 -0400
From: "Gene Calarco" <
gac@clifton.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Intermintant Missfire of cylinder 1-4
Thanks for tip ..I have done that, used my digital mulit-meter and
analog
meter to check tps, was smooth as could be...and the base ohm tested
with in
spec. I did both tests recommended in our manual. I did adjust
it down to
the beginning of the range .058 , it was at like....
.62xx Seems to be
reporting correctly.
Eugene
92'DOHC NT
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:38:19 -0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Intermintant Missfire of cylinder 1-4
Try some Techron or similar fuel cleaner as well.
There are
some older archives discussing removal of cylinder carbon
deposits. Those
will make any fuel misbehave more than normal.
Kurt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:52:06 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Intermittent Misfire of cylinder 1-4
How long? I couldn't even venture a guess, but from what I've seen,
the ECU
usually can relearn and reset almost anything (within its range or
ability).
That answer is... 'probably within 10 to 100 miles (..deduced from
various
things I've read...)'. My knowledge isn't anywhere near the
level of many on
this list - I can make "logical observations", and little
more. But I saw
(what I think is) the effects of bad gas yet *again*
yesterday, during a dyno
session. Read my next post "Puzzling
results..." for the details, but in
short, the engine acted erratically and
went into "learn mode" during the dyno
session. I ran out of gas
'mid-session', and added some questionnable 91
octane from an unknown
station. We think it was really 87 octane...
On all subsequent runs, we
got erratic results, and the dyno operator said
that it appeared that the ECU
was trying to "learn" how to deal with the bad
gas (or whatever) by pulling
timing and going rich... I don't know how long
your trip to work is,
but if it's more than 10 miles each way, the engine
should have relearned by
now, and you might still have other issues...
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:05:19 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Puzzling dyno results... Analysis needed.
I was late getting to my 11AM appointment to dyno my 91 VR-4, and I forgot
to
get gas beforehand. I had just a bit of 91 octane left when I went
there
(good gas from the track, from 2 weeks before). As I mentioned in
a reply to
Gene C last week (about the effects of low-octane gas), I had
gassed up with
(what they claimed was) 91 at an unknown station on the way
*to* the track
that weekend. The car performed poorly until I put in
that "real" 91 octane
at the track. I'm convinced that they sold 87
instead of 91 at that unknown
station. Once the real 91 was in, the car
performed just great at the track.
That good gas was what was in my tank when
I went to the dyno shop.
We did about 10 dyno runs and the "get gas" light went on. Up until
that
time, we were trying to tune the "low boost" air/fuel map (on the
SAFC-II) for
my dual boost controller, which was set at .6 bar (9psi).
We remapped until
we got up to 316.5 hp (to the wheels - approximately 450
flywheel hp). Here's
the dyno sheet:
www.Team3S.com/Dyno/100203-316hp-sm.gif.
The turbos had
pulled back a bit at about 6300.
That was about when we just about ran out of gas. He ran around the
corner
with a gas can and we put in a gallon of 91 from that station.
He wanted to
switch over to the "high boost" setting at this point, and come
back to the
low boost setting later...
The high boost was set at .9 bar (14psi), but also I wanted to try 15psi
and
16psi, just to see if we could get a safe boost without knock or timing
pulls.
No matter what we did with the SAFC-II settings, and at all boost
levels
(14psi, 15psi, 16psi), the dyno showed the turbos going up to .9 and
then
jumping BACK to finish the run at .8 bar! Here's that lowest dyno
run, and
you can see the jump at 5700:
www.Team3S.com/Dyno/100203-274hp-sm.gif.
We got
results between 273whp and 305whp - LOWER than the results at low
boost
(9psi)! He said it appeared that the ECU as pulling timing and
dumping fuel
in there, trying to relearn. It was at that point that I
remembered my
experience at the track, and I guessed that I probably had a
gallon of 87
octane in there from the station around the corner. So we
stopped the runs,
fearing the results of running low octane at high
revs...
Does anyone have any insights here? Have you ever heard of a turbo
running up
to one level and then pulling back to a lower level of
output? Might there be
other issues at work? Any and all input is
appreciated! TIA...
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 18:28:55 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Puzzling dyno results... Analysis needed.
>> Have you ever heard of a turbo running up to one level
>>
and then pulling back to a lower level of output?
>> Might there be
other issues at work?
Generally as compressor wheel speed increases, flow increases. This does
not mean output pressure necessarily increases or even stays constant (pressure
can easily decrease even though flow increases). See information in my web page
below.
I would not blame the turbo wheels here. The turbo wheel speed will
decrease (meaning flow decreases and that usually means lower pressure) whenever
exhaust flow/energy decreases or flow is allowed to go around the turbine wheel.
The wastegate is the part related to the turbo that allows exhaust to flow
around the turbine wheel (that is, not flowing through the wheel). The boost
controller, through the vacuum/pressure hoses, controls the wastegate.
Wastegates can also creep open if the spring holding them closed is
"weak".
Suspect the boost controller and its parts and hoses first, a leak in the
intake system second (my aftermarket IC only leaked when there was enough
pressure in it to push the cracked welded seam apart), and the wastegate
actuator last.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 18:36:55 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Puzzling dyno results... Analysis needed.
>> He said it appeared that the ECU as pulling timing and
>>
dumping fuel in there, trying to relearn.
*There is no need at all to guess about this*. For your '91, a datalogger
will provide this information - rpm, timing advance, knock, and injector pulse
width (to get IDC). Didn't you datalog?
The ECU can dump fuel, as well as pull timing, if it seems excessive knock
values.
The ECU learning process has very little to do with open-loop fuel control.
As far timing advance, I think Todd Day has suggested there is a "timing advance
trim" that is changed over time and used as a correction to the timing advance
map values. I am not sure about this and do not recall anybody else, or the tech
manuals, mentioning such a thing about our ignition system.
In short, forget about the ECU "learning" much during WOT pulls on the
dyno, and datalog to know what the ECU is doing.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 02:13:58 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Puzzling dyno results... Analysis needed.
Bob, some of my words to the dyno session :
First, 316 hp on 9 psi is by far too optimistic. This boost is what
the
second gen have stock and they are rated by 320hp flywheel. With some
"fuel
tuning" you can get out about 15 hp, but that's it. And even with such
low
octane fuel, I see no way the ECU switches back to the higher quality
fuel
map. No, I don't trust this dyno much or pressure displayed wasn't
right.
Second, drivetrain loss is somewhere in between 75 and 95, depending
on
wheels, gear the car was in and so on. AND NO DAMN PERCENTAGE ! I don't
see
the loss on the dyno sheet so forget any estimations.
The 9b and 13g Mitsu turbos start to fall down after 4500rpm on so far
stock
car. Exhaust mods (i.e. removing precats, better downpipe,
race-cat,
cat-back) then help to keep them spooling in the upper range what
seems to
keep them alive until about 5200 .. .depending on what boost you
look at of
course.
Now to the dyno session. 10 pulls ... this is a strange method to tune in
a
car on the dyno. It seems it was a try and error session just to find
out
what can be doen to the engine (very risky IMHO). This is why we can have
a
cheap datalogger that would immediatly tell you what is going on
without
guessing. As we only have the one dyno sheet for reference it is
clear to
see what all our enginess do : the danger zone starts at 4500 rpm !
All
engines that experience knock sum on a level in between 13 and 18 the
timing
will be puleld back around 4500. On the "316hp" run the engine
experienced
retarded timing due to knock at 5200 (the ripple shows that you
may got
knock of around 10 at 4800 already) and very heavy knock at 6350 ...
almost
a bang there !!! No, not good ! On the other run, the problem got
even
worser. Knock was now seen at 4500 and it seems that the level
stayed
constant until 5650 where knock of more than 20 hit the sensor. The
Timing
got pulled again what caused some of the knock to dissapear and the
timing
got a little advanced. The torque curve looks ok until the 4500 dead
drop.
Now if this is gas quality or not, at least 93 should be in. 91 is
cruising
gas with knock potential, not good for the engine. If you have a CA
ECU,
then it is tuned for less power anyways to accept the low octane gas.
With
the higher octane gas the power drop could probably be eliminated but to
be
sure, data logging is a must. And no, the ECU did not dump in fuel,
it
cannot. it simply changes the fuel map and adjusts with a smaller
value
based on the timing. The change in A/F ratio looks to me like an AFC
setting
at 5800 what caused this. Again the signals from the ECU are a must
to be
sure what was going on at this time. Also the ECU for sure did no
relearn at
this time. Also adding more fuel was often contra-productive as i
saw more
knock then.
Next time, have an old Palm with the logger on board. Also the right
method
is to have the dyno stabilized by the critical rpms and then adjust
fuel and
boost settings for the best result and to find the points that are
critical.
I identified them to be at 4500, 5200, 6000 and 6500. Also record
boost and
temperature data to see if the intercoolers have a chance to cool
the hot
discharge air.
Needless to say that a bleeder or ball spring type of boost controller
is
not my choice at all !
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#269
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