Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, September 9 2003 Volume
02 : Number 251
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:55:13 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Brakes
Aren't these laws of physics and friction making a relative comparison
between two points the same size? For example, if you have a brake pad
with 10 square inches of surface, and a brake pad with 20 square inches of
surface, the amount of "friction" per square inch, or per square millimeter, or
per square micron, etc., etc., would be the same for both pads (assuming the
same pressures, etc). However, the larger pad has twice the "stopping
power" (relatively speaking) because it has the capacity to convert nearly twice
the amount of kinetic friction to heat (at the same pressure) than a pad 1/2
it's size?
An easy experiment would be to take a 10 square inch piece of 80 grit
sandpaper, attach it to a 10 square inch board and, while pressing down as hard
as you can, try to slide it across a piece of wood. You probably can do
it. Now do the same with a 20 square inch piece of 80 grit. You
probably won't be able to budge it.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:02:00 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Tranny installation Q
I use Redline MT-90 in my tranny and transfer case. I've never had a
problem. I'd run the dyno oil for a few hundred miles, then change it out to the
Redline, for no reason other than the fact that Redline is too expensive to dump
out after a few hundred!
You probably should fill the tranny up to see if it leaks first. I
did, but only because the reason why I had my tranny out was because it was
leaking at the shaft that goes to the transfer case ;) If you decide
to do it, don't tilt it back on the part where the halfshafts go in. The
oil will leak out everywhere! Also, I think the only seal that you'll be
able to check for leaks on is the shaft that goes to the transfer case.
Oil will leak out of the differential (where the halfshafts go) before any of
the other seals are submerged.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:29:45 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Brakes
The sandpaper analogy is different than the brake friction problem ---
sandpaper
has grit that digs into the wood and gouges out pieces of wood. In
the case of
brakes it's two hard surfaces sliding over each other which do
respond to the laws
of physics, namely coefficient of friction and pressure.
The big difference in brakes
is the ability to absorb and shed heat. A pad
with 5 square inches could be made
to stop the car once maybe even twice
before it was toasted --- Bigger is better
only in the sense that you can
stop again and again without problems. The stock
brakes with stock pads are
fine for street use where you shouldn't be doing a
panic stop from 100 mph
more than once or twice a day. You may exhibit some
problems if you're doing
spirited driving on a mountain road --- the system
overheats and you will get
brake fade. Either boiled fluid or overheated pads.
The physics involved does not take into account the surface area involved
--- with
two hard surfaces the actual contact area is only micro inches even
if the actual
area of the material is 500 square inches. As the surfaces move
with respect to
each other the points of contact change but it's still a
miniscule amount compared
to the actual surface.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:51:41 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Brakes
As you can tell from my various posts on this, I find this topic quite
interesting because it seems to violate the laws of common sense. That is,
one would think that a hypothetical brake pad having 20 square inches of surface
would have more stopping power than a hypothetical brake pad the size of the
head of a pin because the area is bigger. Thank God I'm a lawyer and not a
physicist!
So, to bring this to a close, are you saying that there is no discernible
benefit to going with larger rotors and pads, except for longevity? And
that they really wont stop you any faster?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 10:06:49 -0600
From: "Zach Sauerman" <
axemaddock@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: loss of boost
Good morning everyone.
My car doesn't seem to be effectivley boosting
anymore.
I am hearing a lot of air as I apply throttle to where the car
normally
begins to boost. The sound is just as loud when heard from both
driver and
passenger side. The sound is similar to what the stock BOV sounds
like, but
is noticeably louder.
There are no other lights on the panel,
and all factory gauge readings are
normal.
The car does not hesitate or
misfire and idles normally. On the road, it
drives as though normally
aspirated and tries to boost, but doesn't achieve
more than 7-10psi steady
state. She drove four hundred miles without
incident and maintained 80mph on
flat ground, but required a downshift for
hills or passing.
With the car
parked I donot know how to convince it to boost so that I can
find the
source of the noise. Soft hoses appear normal, with the exception
of one
softer spot on the nylon wrapped hose going to the intercooler on the
driver
side just over the engine mount, but it doesn't feel like the rubber
failed.
All connections are secure. I was unable to fully inspect the large
diameter
rubber hose leading from the MAF to the turbo intake. The stock
Y-pipe is
good.
If somone could respond with their ideas or ways to inspect all the
intake
plumbing with the car running and how to look for the source of this
sound
with the car parked- ie convince it to boost, I would greatly
appreciate it.
I have one solid theory, but donot want to influence anyone's
guess.
Thank you very much.
Respectfully,
Zach Sauerman
'94 Pearl Yellow TT
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:11:14 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Brakes
Funny thing about the laws physics, and the legal profession for that
matter --- common
sense seldom seems to enters into it. The key is the
ability to lock up the tires --- in the
absence of the ABS system our cars
can easily skid to a stop. If you can stop the
wheels from turning
you've generated as much braking force as you can use without
going to fatter
stickier tires. Larger rotors and pads will take more thermal abuse but
they
won't necessarily last longer ---- when abused they will stop you more
often.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
>> Aren't these laws of physics and friction making a
>>
relative comparison between two points the same size?
No. Read rule (2) below again. Read any physics or engineering text that
deals with this subject.
Note that the same rules apply to the flywheel - clutch disc - pressure
plate interfaces.
There are two key differences regarding contact patch sizes (or brake pad
sizes or clutch friction surfaces, both of which are relatively smooth) -
pressure and heat dissipation.
1) Pressure (say measured in psi - pounds per square inch).
If 100 pounds of force are applied to a pad 1 sq in in area, then there is
100 psi of pressure at the surface of the pad. If a brake pad has 10 sq in of
surface area and 100 pounds of force is applied to the brake pad, then the
surface will have 10 psi of pressure (10 psi times 10 square inches gives us the
100 pounds of force we started with).
Friction is proportional to pressure (see rule (1) below) and so the larger
pad would actually produce *less* friction than the smaller pad (if coefficients
of friction and applied force are identical).
See the connection to Joseph's "test" described below? If I apply 100
pounds of force to the 10 sq in pad of sandpaper I get 10 psi of pressure at the
contact area. The same force applied to the 20 sq in of sandpaper results in
only 5 psi of pressure - and less friction! The results should be just the
opposite from what Joseph predicts. In fact, the larger pad of sandpaper will
move easier than the smaller one with the same force applied to each.
In our hydraulic brake system, the fluid transfers force or pressure
equally to all surfaces. Because of this the cylinders in the calipers create a
multiplying effect. If 100 psi of presure is in the fluid and there are 4 sq in
of cylinder/piston surface area, then 400 pounds of force are applied to the
brake pad. If there are 5 sq in of total piston area then 500 pounds of force
are applied to the brake pad. The calipers multiply the force applied by the
driver to the brake pedal. And yes, this is why the master cylinder has more
than 1 sq in of area - so that it multiplies the pedal force rather than
diminishes it. Our MC has a cylinder with 1.133 sq in of cross-sectional
area.
However, unlike the hydraulic fluid, the solid brake pad does not multiply
the force; it spreads it out as described above. This same thing happens with
tires and skis (snow and water). Force is spread over the contact area and so
the pressure at the surface (and the friction along the *smooth* surfaces) is
lower. Before the hands go up asking why wider tires are better for cornering
and say drag racing, the answer is other factors are involved (such as grip,
stiffness, and heat dissipation). However, the reason skinnier tires are better
in the snow is for the reason mentioned above, great pressure at the contact
areas.
2) Heat absorption and dissipation.
A pad with 1 sq of surface area applies just as much *friction* as a pad
with 10 sq in. of surface area - *if* the pressures and coefficients of friction
are identical. However, on the car the smaller pad will likely overheat much
faster than the larger one if any decent pedal pressure is applied - 1) because
the pressure will be higher and 2) the mass is less. This usually means pad
temperature exceeds the favorable coefficient of friction temperature range and
the coefficient drops close to zero, resulting in very little friction between
the two surfaces (brake fade).
So in summary, most brake pads have about the same surface area, that is
about 8 to 10 square inches (12 sq in for the AP pads). Braking force is spread
out more over the larger pad and so there is reduced pressure at the pad (at the
same pedal pressure) and so reduced friction. This is often balanced by higher
coefficients of friction over certain temperature ranges. Larger pads will be
less likely to exceed the preferred temperature range because they absorb and
dissipate heat better (more mass). This means less brake fade.
( Hopefully I got all this correct. :) )
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 09:44:02 -0700
From: Michael Gerhard <
gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Brakes
I'm going to chime in here ...
snip
>Friction is proportional to pressure (see rule (1) below) and so the
>larger pad would actually produce *less* friction than the smaller pad
(if
>coefficients of friction and applied force are identical).
Strictly speaking, friction is proportional to force.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Michael
A. Gerhard 1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 Pearl
White
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:30:58 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Brakes
Jeff, is that less pressure at the pad, or less pressure "per square inch"
at the pad? In your discussion below, are you really reducing total
pressure to 1/10th of the PSI for the entire 10 sq inch pad, or do you still
have 100 PSI, but it is now spread out over 10 square inches, for 10 PSI per
square inch?
------------------------------
Mike is correct. :)
"1. Friction between two given bodies is directly proportional to the
pressure, the coefficient of friction is constant for all pressures."
Note the phrase in the above rule "between two given bodies". It means that
the contact area is constant. In this case a change in the normal force between
the two bodies is a change in the pressure. Pressure is basically force divided
by area.
And Mike caught were I slipped up! I incorrectly stated that larger pads
will have less friction. While larger and smaller pads *will* exert different
pressures if the force applied is the same, rule 1 above does not strictly
apply. The more general "rule" Mike mentions should have been used.
The correct conclusion is that if the applied force is the same, large and
smaller pads will have the *same* friction if the coeffecient of friction is the
same.
Thanks for the correction!
Rule "1" really should be divided up.
(1a) Friction force is directly proportional to normal force (and
independent of contact area).
(1b) The coefficient of friction is independent of the normal force (but
does depend on temperature).
------------------------------
It is *force* applied to the pad. It is *pressure* applied by the pad to
the disc. Well actually it is force also - it just depends on what you are
measuring (or calculating).
Pressure is force divided by area. And as Michael Gerhard pointed out it is
not strickly pressure but normal *force* that determines friction (friction is
"tangential" force between two surfaces).
Larger pads will exert less pressure on the disc but the same force and so
the same friction (not less friction as I incorrectly concluded).
Sorry for the confusion, and thanks to Mike for the correction.
To answer your question, yes pressure does change in the example below.
Pressure is force divided by area (pounds per square inch as an example). Same
force but different areas result in different pressures.
------------------------------
so shall we get into "mechanical advantage"?
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
>> so shall we get into "mechanical advantage"?
Naw. Everybody gets the idea that a longer lever gives a mechanical
advantage (a torque increase) over a shorter lever. For our brakes it means
larger rotors, assuming the brake pads are positioned near the outer edge of the
rotor, and how the brake pedal is designed.
Oops, there is one more *error* in my earlier post. The amount of pressure
from the master cylinder is the pedal force *divided by* not *multiplied by* the
cylinder/piston cross-sectional area. I should have caught this. Pressure is
force divided by area. P = f/A
The force is from us pushing on the brake pedal which pushes a rod in the
MC. The smaller the area (the cross-sectional area of the cylinder or piston)
the greater the pressure. Of course, once we have produced pressure in the
hydraulic fluid that pressure is transmitted equally and undiminished to all
surfaces that enclose the fluid.
For an interesting discussion about braking look at the article by
James Walker, Jr. of scR motorsports (...as published in Grassroots Motorsports,
Dec 2000) at the url below.
I like this particular paragraph. :)
"You can take this one to the bank. Regardless of your huge rotor diameter,
brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your
calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tire to road
interface. That is the point of this whole article. Your brakes do not stop your
car. Your tires do stop the car. So while changes to different parts of the
brake system may affect certain characteristics or traits of the system
behavior, using stickier tires is ultimately the only sure-fire method of
decreasing stopping distances."
I would add that on some surfaces (say ice or snow) metal studs are better
than "stickier".
------------------------------
When I get my car worked on, it is at a friends shop so I
get to stay
with my car and ask questions. I try to
listen to what they tell other
people about their cars
too, just in case it happens to mine. I guess
I just try
to learn everything I can by listening, asking questions,
and
having people show me what they are talking about. I
also talk alot to
the guys at the autoparts stores when I
think they are not brain dead.
Anyway, last time I was
getting my oil changed a guy commented on how good
it was
that I was using Mobil 1 synthetic in my car. Then he
said
if I ever went back to a normal oil it would ruin my
engine. Is this
true?
IF true, then how is it safe to perform the "lifter tick
repair"
oil change?
I was just curious.
Thanks,
Carol
Decker
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:25:04 -0500
From: "xwing" <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
Brakes
That article has several grossly MISLEADING and FALSE statements. It
also
has some great info. BE CAREFUL reading it.
> "You can take this one to the bank. Regardless of your huge
rotor
diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of
pistons
in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by
the
tire to road interface. That is the point of this whole article. Your
brakes
do not stop your car. Your tires do stop the car. So while changes
to
different parts of the brake system may affect certain characteristics
or
traits of the system behavior, using stickier tires is ultimately the
only
sure-fire method of decreasing stopping distances."
- ----FALSE!!!!!!
I think many of us from Rich Merritt to Phil Glazatov to myself
have
experienced brake fade. Bigger brakes and rotors certainly helped
MY
stopping distances, in PARTICULAR as the brakes heat up...so THESE
MANY
TIMES THIS HAPPENS are specifically NOT limited "EVERY TIME" by
the tire to
road interface, and these MANY TIMES stickier tires specifically
would NOT
"sure-fire" decrease our stopping distances. This sort
of
overheating/fading is why the majority of roadcourse/HIGHperformance
driving
people buy bigger brakes and look for information, so THIS article
telling
people to buy stickier tires is just idiotic.
Another example for good measure: there was a specific Japanese
Option 2
magazine roadtest of OUR cars with stock and UPGRADED LARGER BRAKES,
using
the SAME tires. Guess what? The upgraded larger brakes
worked better,
shorter stopping distances right off the bat, and after more
stops/heating
up the benefits were GIGANTIC.
Your BRAKES stop your car. If you can lock up all 4 wheels and have
no
significant brake fade/overheating, THEN stickier tires will
decrease
stopping distances. On our cars with the ABS and larger front
upgrades
there are some other things needing addressing too
(brake
proportioning--Phil G are you working on that :) )...but on OUR cars
it is a
Truth that Brakes Stop Our Cars, and Big Brake Upgrades are BETTER
than just
stickier tires at helping OUR problems.
Here is the article's summary statment...see with your OWN eyes if this
is
TRUE FOR OUR CARS:
"In summary, brake system modifications have their place to help make
your
ride more consistent, predictable, and user-friendly; however, if
your
ultimate goal is to decrease your stopping distance, look no further
than
the four palm-sized patches of rubber connecting your ride to the
ground."
"LOOK NO FURTHER" than getting better TIRES????
This guy is an
idiot. Anyone see the recent Dilbert cartoon with the Boss
interviewing
some guy:
"Wow! You have 3 Master's Degrees and a PhD!" "Yes,
it's all very
impressive, but interestingly, I have no common sense
whatsoever." "That's
no the sort of thing you should say during a job
interview." "I don't see
why not."
So, several such RIDICULOUSLY FALSE and misleading AWAY from the truth
to
beat-a-dead-horse-about-cutesy-"brakes don't stop your car" lines of
illogic
make the article much less believable to me, and for a novice or the
easily
swayed it is sadly wrongheaded, unless you specifically choose to
IGNORE its
MAIN POINT, which leads more AWAY from truth than TO truth, and
because the
falsities are couched in Science Speak with Diagrams, it is
promulgated as a
great reference...sigh.
Oh well. Let those with eyes, see. Let those without, follow
his MAIN
ADVICE and when you want better braking, just look NO FURTHER and
get better
TIRES....SHEESH!
JT
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:00:48 -0700
From: "Erik Petterson" <
erik@microworks.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Mysterious part / wire?
I am in the middle of putting in a stereo system. Found a little box
and
wire near the "Light Automatic Shut off Control unit". It also has
a little
wire sticking out of it, that then goes into the 6x9 speaker port on
the
driver side. Was wondering what this is, appears to be stock, BUT
it's not
in the picture on Stealth316.com, so it might only be on 2nd
gens. I am
guessing it also could be a motion sensor for an
alarm?
Thanks,
- -Erik
'94 R/T
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:04:59 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Mysterious part / wire?
How does "alarm control module" sound???
It's for your keyless entry!
- -Cody
------------------------------
Jeez, Jack, I wish you wouldn't hold back like that.
Tell us what you
really mean.
He's absolutely right, of course. When my Carbotech race pads are new,
fat,
all warmed up, and the tires are sticky and warm, hitting the brakes in
my
car is like running into a tree. Even though a stock car with stock
pads
and street tires can bounce off the ABS at 100+ mph, it doesn't have
quite
the same stopping power as a race-prepped car.
Rich/shiftless old ricer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:34:18 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: Brakes
Geese, Jack, you're gonna give yourself a heart attack! Relax a
little.
Brake fade is included in the phrase "may affect certain characteristics
or
traits of the system behavior". The fellow is not an idiot.
Nobody is suggesting that tires can cure brake fade.
And of course life on a road coarse, or the street even, is more
complicated than stopping one time. The fellow was simply discussing the
mechanics of braking.
The advice is still sound: improve the friction at the tire-road interface
to get the most out of the braking system.
And as mentioned many times (not in the article): improve the heat
management to minimize brake fade.
So, since you're in a mood, please address "my" tips below and offer some
constructive criticism, additions, corrections, etc..
Here is how you can stop faster and shorter more often and more
consistantly (assumes you have the ultimate sticky tires and the ultimate brake
fluid).
1) Exert more force by:
- - pressing harder on the brake pedal,
- -
using a master cylinder with a smaller cylinder diameter (multiplies pedal force
to the fluid),
- - preventing brake lines from expanding (reduces pressure
losses or delays), and
- - use a caliper with more total cylinder area
(multiplies fluid force to the pads).
2) Increase (or optimize?) the coefficient of kinetic friction by:
- -
using different pads (with materials and a coefficient optimal for the use of
the pads), and
- - maintaining the optimal temperature at the rotor-pad
interface (this can include air- or water-cooling of the brake area, or using
pads, calipers and/or rotors that dissipate heat better).
3) Increase the "stopping lever" by
- - using rotors with a larger
diameter to increase the torque applied by the caliper to the wheel (assumes
caliper and pads are on the outer edge of the rotor).
Thanks.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:48:00 -0700
From: "Erik Petterson" <
erik@microworks.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Mysterious part / wire?
Well I didn't get a keyless entry remote when I bought the car... Do
you
think I can order a replacement one from a dealer, and it will
just
work(like if that control module is there, would there be anything else
that
would have to be installed to make it work?) I didn't notice an
alarm horn
in the engine bay, so maybe it just has Keyless Entry, that would
be
Awesome!
- -Erik
------------------------------
At 05:25 PM 9/8/2003, xwing wrote:
>On our cars with the ABS and
larger front upgrades
>there are some other things needing addressing too
(brake
>proportioning--Phil G are you working on that :) )...
Yes, Jack, I am working on the rear brake upgrade. The parking brake needs
more work, but the big rear brakes with brake proportioning adjustment will
be track-tested in 10 days. :-)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:10:37 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Brakes
There is also the significant affect of the brake booster when
considering the
pressure from the master cylinder --- IIRC the booster
multiplies the pedal pressure
by a factor of 7.
> The force is from us pushing on the brake pedal which pushes a rod
in the MC. The smaller the >area (the cross-sectional area of
the cylinder
or piston) the greater the pressure. Of course, once >we have produced
pressure in the hydraulic fluid that pressure is
transmitted equally and
>undiminished to all surfaces that enclose the fluid.
The downside of a smaller piston is the need for a longer pedal travel ---
There ain't no
free lunch in science. In a real world system there is
complience in the system which
must be overcome by pedal movement ---- the
smaller the piston the more the pressure
but less fluid volume when the
pedal moves.
An ideal system would be zero pedal movement, just more stopping power the
more
force on the pedal --- maybe a 'fly-by-wire' type of brake system.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:21:01 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Brakes
I'm not convinced there is any significant improvement --- assuming a
well
tuned stock setup vs. a race setup. Most of the books showed the
stopping
distance to be in the 120 foot range from 60 mph [ brakes warm, 1
stop for
you pickers of nits ]. That's a pretty damn good stop and somebody
is going
to have to show me any significant improvement for one stop from a
race
setup --- and don't come back and show me an article with a 117 foot
stop.
I said significant --- as in a repeatable 10 to 20 foot
improvement.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:36:31 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Brakes
Jeff --- for the most your lists assume that the car is not capable of
locking em
up in it's stock configuration --- not the case with our car. If
you can currently
lock up the tires the only way to improve stopping distance
is to improve
traction until you can no longer reach lockup --- then start on
your list. Things
like SS lines and monoblock rotors will improve pedal or
brake feel but I doubt
that they will have any significant affect on stopping
distance.
Now the more often part is still a heat dissipation and substance abuse
issue.
Jeeze you guys, not that kind of substance abuse --- the abuse of pads
and
fluids to the point of failure.
If you want a wish list go with water cooled calipers, carbon/carbon brakes
and
ceramic rotors --- we should be able to pull that off for 10K per
corner.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:43:25 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Mysterious part / wire?
That happened to me --- The small dealer I bought the car from didn't
know
about the remote or the CD changer. I found out later on my own. You
can
test the alarm by locking the car with the key then reaching in thru an
open
window to open the door. You have to let it sit for a minute or so
for the
alarm to activate. There's a light on the instrument panel
that tells when the
alarm is set but I forget where it is ---- left side
bottom, I think.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:51:43 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Brakes
Come on Philip how about some details
before I go out and design my own.
You don't have to keep secrets
from your buddies.
I have my eye on some used Wilwood Superlite 6's but if you have
a
better plan ?!?!?!?
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:56:12 -0400
From: "The Furmans" <
L.Furman1@cox.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: Brakes
Hey Phil before you go an reinvent the wheel here MOViT makes
a
complete rear brake upgrade for our cars. While it is 2500 bucks
it
is out there for the truly hardcore. If you are attempting what
Geoff
Mohler has done for our front brakes then I am all ears/eyes.
I would include the link unfortunately both Germany and USA do
not
currently have the specifications up for their rear kits :(
Russ F
CT
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:23:51 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Brakes
What's Geoff done for the front of the car ????
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Nuttin 100% completed yet. Just a bigred kit with a larger rotor,
plus
theres a properly sized 2pc rotor option available as well..pricey
tho.
In the end, a 2pc rotor kit + good calipers and SS lines/adaptors for
$2k
is a smokin deal. The basic hardware adds up pretty fast.
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
My rear kit will cost much less than MOVit. My calculations show that the
factory rear calipers would provide PLENTY of brake force if used with
larger brake rotors, say lightweight 13" diameter rotors. So much brake
force that they would ourbrake the front brakes and lock up the rears first
if used without a brake proportioning valves. Even for Jack T and his big
Brembo front calipers they would provide enough rear brake force to balance
his front brakes. I have not checked Jim's new brake setup, with his
Wilwood calipers that are wider than the wheels. :-)
Other calipers can also be mounted, however that would require buying
another set of calipers, brake lines and brake pads. Our factory calipers
are very good already and the brake pads wear very little. Larger calipers
and pads are simply not needed, IMO. I will verify that in 12 days at
Gingerman.
For those looking for a cool look, the big rear rotors with aluminum hats
will be a selling point. The 2nd gen rear calipers would look very nice if
painted. A dedicated spot parking brake caliper, similar to the one used on
the new Viper, is something that should only be used on cool supercars,
like ours!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:30:42 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Brakes
Ah yes I remember that from a few months ago between Phillip and
Geoff.
In all fairness though it's a Brad Bedell project reinvented or
continued by
Geoff --- probably in better fashion, two piece rotors
etc.
I could sell my Prolite 6 setup with 13 1/2" rotors and custom hats for
about
$6000 --- damn that sound ridiculous, and that's with little
profit.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:43:24 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Rear brake
upgrade (Re: Team3S: Re: Brakes)
Hmmm --- probably a good approach. I know the issue is getting
more
stopping force in the rear !!! I keep looking at it as clamping force
but
I guess torque would work just as well. Would you redo the brake
split,
change it to front to rear rather than opposite corners ??? or put in
two valves ??? Keep us
updated.
BTW --- after test fitting the new system I've decided to forego
wheels
and tires, I'm just going to glue some rubber to the outside edge of
my
rotors and drive that way. Maybe some industrial strength rubber
bands.
BTW 2 --- I've been driving without an E brake for about a year, if
you
live in the flat lands it ain't a big deal. The car will hold in 1st gear
in
my driveway for weeks --- it's about 5 degrees or so.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
At 10:43 PM 9/8/2003, fastmax wrote:
>Hmmm --- probably a good
approach. I know the issue is getting more
>stopping force in the rear !!!
I keep looking at it as clamping force but
>I guess torque would work just
as well. Would you redo the brake split,
>change it to front to rear
rather than opposite corners ??? or put in
>two valves
??? Keep us updated.
Probably two valves, or no valves at all if properly calculated and tested.
However, adjustability is always nice to have. Eliminating the diagonal
split will require eliminating the ABS, which is something I do not know
who is willing to do.
>BTW --- after test fitting the new system I've decided to forego
wheels
>and tires, I'm just going to glue some rubber to the outside edge
of my
>rotors and drive that way. Maybe some industrial strength rubber
bands.
Nice! Saves 50 lbs per corner too. :-)
>BTW 2 --- I've been driving without an E brake for about a year, if
you
>live in the flat lands it ain't a big deal. The car will hold in 1st
gear in
>my driveway for weeks --- it's about 5 degrees or so.
If you want a brake upgrade without a parking brake, that is possible. You
will just have to sign and mail to me a 40-page liability waiver. I will
have to hire Johnny Cochran to write it for me first.
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:17:36 +0100
From: "Jim Matthews" <
jim@the-matthews.com>
Subject: RE:
Rear brake upgrade (Re: Team3S: Re: Brakes)
> The 2nd gen rear calipers would look very nice if painted.
I had all four of my stock calipers painted red and they look
fantastic.
Two pictures of the front-left caliper are on my web page, the
rear is
similar.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 23:16:23 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Brakes
> For an interesting discussion about braking look at the
article
> by James Walker, Jr. of scR motorsports (...as published
in
> Grassroots Motorsports, Dec 2000) at the url below.
heres another version from 2001 -
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 23:40:29 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Brakes
1) brakes are only as good as your tires. crappy tires, crappy
brakes.
2) braking (like clutches) is all about thermal managment. manage the
heat,
improve efficiency/performace.
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 23:50:57 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Brakes
> So, to bring this to a close, are you saying that there is no
>
discernible benefit to going with larger rotors and pads, except
> for
longevity?
longevity and efficiency/performance.
> And that they really wont stop you any faster?
with an upgraded brake system one may realize improved braking
efficiency
and/or performance.
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:06:17 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: brakes
> I can say I have
> had Powerstop rotors and MetalMatrix pads on
my modified '92 TT
> since 1999 and for ~11000 miles and have no
complaints (no
> warping, no cracking, no brake fade, no squeeling, no
excessive
> dust, etc).
I have been employing powerstop x drilled rotors for 7 years now on
the
street, track and my ball busting backcountry twisty runs without a
hitch.
great product.
> However, I drive sanely on the street (no panic stops
> from 100
mph - what form of street-driving stupidity would
> require such an
action?)
try my mental state. ;)
> and I do not drive on a race track.
I do. however I prefer the street. 8)
> Are Powerslot or Powerstop the best rotors you can buy?
no, but they sure look nice and the price is fair.
> If it was me shopping right now for rotors, I would probably
>
spend a little extra (than $260 for 4, which is an excellent
> price) if I
had to and get a better factory-sized rotor, such as
> Porterfield or
Brembo.
Porterfield use Bradi (the commercial outlet of Brembo) and Brembo
amungst
other mfgs of rotors....dont be seduced by Lables ;)
with Porterfield and rotors it can be difficult to know what you will
get,
its a grab bag....however generally a good one.
Power("whatever") rotors are made from Canadian castings which
are
acceptable. castings from canada, japan, italy, and germany are
all
acceptable, and of good quality.
> All emotional statements by others aside, I can tell you not
one
> person has yet mentioned how the car stops. It is not the pads
or
> the rotors. It is friction between the tires and the surface
that
> they contact. Think about that as you drive (or race) and select
tires.
lest us not forget Da Drivers right foot as well.....in a
nutshell....
"Use less Brake = U Go Faster"
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:16:46 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: brakes
> Not necessarily. Stock pads and stock rotors will bounce the car off
the
> ABS, and you can't stop any faster than that.
as will crappy tires.
> Stock pads will fade with heat,
and if you overbrake (a newbie problem)
> of course, but the rotors have little to do with the fading of
stock
> pads. The only time rotors enter the picture is when they wear
down to
> discard depth, and can't dissipate the heat as well as they
could
> when new.
of if you use your brakes too much and overheat the system (a
newbie
problem)
> I use stock rotors on the track, and they work as good as any
other rotor,
agreed.
> with the possible exception of those HUGE Brembo rotors which, of
course,
> have a lot more surface area.
included in this area is the additional space left in your
bank
account/wallet left as a result of "big brakes" and related
expenses. ;)
> What is available to us in slotted and drilled rotors --
PowerSlots,
> Stillens, and the like -- are all really trashy
products.
dont know about Stillen, but Powerslot and Powerstop are fine
products.
> They
> break at the
> hats, crack at the holes, and
warp.
in 7 years of hard abuse and countless customers employing them i have
never
had an issue or complaint...then alot depends on the driver....(see
my
"newbie" statement for additional info)....many times a
driver/braking
newbie will spend "gobs" of money on "big brakes" and expect
them to take
the heat of the sun by overuse "look at my bitchin new "big
brakes!!" and
then cant understand why they have problems if they do.....it
all starts
with the driver.
> No matter what your NASCAR buddy said, remember this: NASCAR,
>
TransAm, Indy
> Cars, and all them pro racers regard rotors as wear items.
Rotors are
> installed NEW at the beginning of each event, and thrown away
afterward.
correct, rotors may be considered as petrol, "a consumable"
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:22:05 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: brakes
> to allow the pad to outgas when everything is glowing red. I
was
> told that the
> modern pads don't have the same outgassing
issues as back in the
> day
when modern brake tech was in its infancy, it took longer periods of
time
for the pads to "cure" and racers were consuming them before they had
a
chance to fully cure thus the need for Xdrilling and/or
slotting....with
todays compounds and mfg proceedures this is not an issue,
that said the
need for "enhanced/augmented" rotors is more of a cosmetic
gesture (in the
spirit of those terms too ;)....and not so much a performance
issue....with
the exception of driving in the rain.
> NASCAR tech or some such program is on and the most I've seed is a
rotor
> with 8 or 10 slots. They are also pretty tough on pads.
so is someone who brakes too much.
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:23:13 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: brakes
> Slotted/dimpled is all bullshit.
depends.
> Stopping power is all in the pads.
not necessarily.
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:27:38 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: brakes
> How are powerslot
rotors for normal street use?
just fine, you will enjoy them and look good using them.
>
> I'm seeing
about 260 + s&h for front and rear... is that about
> right?
depends on the app...
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
I have had a problem finding a computer for my 92 SOHC stealth, it
seems
that if you don't have a repairable one there are none to be had except
for
a new one. I need some assistance, if anyone has any leads for a
computer
please respond.
Thanks
Bryan Goldman
92 SOHC Stealth
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:57:50 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Brakes
>>> And that they really wont stop you any faster?
with an upgraded brake system one may realize improved braking
efficiency
and/or performance.
regards,
terry>>>
One MAY realize improved braking efficiency and/or performance.
However, the only braking efficiency and/or performance improvement I can gather
from the last several days of posts on this topic is longevity, as indicated in
my prior post. Seems to me the theme has been if you got good, sticky
tires, and you know how to use the brake without abusing it, then stockers are
just as good as any "upgrade."
------------------------------
I have the kit Geoff describes and it works well.
Jim Floyd
------------------------------
Not exactly, while we're picking nits.
Rotors are not a "consumable",
but rather a "durable" good, like tires. Petrol is a consumable: you must
burn fuel for the engine to run at all. Tires, brakes, and rotors are worn
in the course of using them, but they do not HAVE to be worn for the car to
move, turn, or stop. Their consumption is secondary to their use.
Fuel consumption is primary to its use.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#251
***************************************
