Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth   Friday, September 5 2003   Volume 02 : Number 248
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:48:16 -0500
From: "Geisel, Brian J" <brian.geisel@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
 
The DR500s definitely held boost on my earlier runs, but it's hard to say since I haven't done too much with boost since putting them in (I never ran more than stock boost w/ stock turbos... good for 13.3, BTW).  I'm interested to see what they'll do when I crank it up w/ 104o next time I hit the track.
 
BTW - thanx to everyone who responded, I have a good feel for what I'm going to need to do now.  Re gap the plugs seems to be #1, #2 - don't run C16, try 104.  I'm still not sure how much to lean it out on 104, but I'll play with it and see what nets me the best times.  Thanx again everyone.
 
geis
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:34:10 -0400
From: "Planet" <planet.j@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Team3S: Check Engine Light, engine noises.
 
I have a 92 Stealth SOHC.
 
Im getting the check engine light, and I diagnosed it to be the O2 sensor.
This light has been on for months now and I thought it was the leaking
downpipe I had. I just got a new downpipe from 3sxperformance and its
installed. I reset it and was hoping not to see the light come back on. The
light stayed off for a trip downtown and back which was a good hour and a
half at highway speeds. The light came back on the next trip I took and it
is again the O2 sensor. Now could the O2 be bad or is it something else like
the manuals say. Injectors, intake, etc. How can I test the O2 sensor itself
to see if it's working properly.
 
On a side note I noticed a ticking noise coming from the top of my engine.
between the two rows of injectors and where the plenum is. Im not sure if
this noise has always been there. Is this the common lifter tick?
 
One more thing. There is a rattling noise I can hear from inside the car
when stereo is off and all windows are closed. The noise is directly related
to the engine being under a load, as in accelerating and decelerating. If
the clutch is in, or in neutral. There is no noise. No-one has been able to
answer me on this one. I have heard that I need to check the throw out
bearings, but to my knowledge the tob is under load when the clutch is down.
Any help would lower my stress factor right now. As this is my commuter car
and Im a student with little money to spend.
 
Thanks!
Jason M
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:10:56 -0700
From: "Mosher, David" <dmosher@ea.com>
Subject: Team3S: Seeking independent opinions maintenance needed of my 92 VR-4  203K
 
Hello Everyone,
 
I was wondering if anyone is free at some point this weekend to take a
look at my 92 VR4 with 203K.  After working my A$$ off for the last
couple of months I finally think I am going to have some time to start
doing some maintenance on my VR-4. I am seeking independent
"experienced" opinions of what needs to be done on my vehicle. My long
tern goal is to restore the vehicle to like new condition with possibly
some limited bolt on modifications that can be returned to stock to
stock if desired.  My hope is to meet with one or preferably more 3S
owners who have a good understanding of the engine and suspension
systems; I would buy lunch and gas for you time.
 
One of the items on my list is the front suspension system and possibly
the rear. Currently my symptoms are that the front end gets a vibration
in shallow turns" the wheel is only turned about +or- 20 degrees at
speeds of 50-80. It feels like a wheel is out of balance but funny thing
is that it seems to go away when the wheel is centered or when I am
above 90 MPH.  I remember a similar problem that I had on my DSM and it
turned out that CV Joints had worn out. I was also wondering if the
wheel bearings could be a possible cause for the problem.
 
I do have some dings on my rims "due to wife's parking practices :)"
that may be causing some imbalance at speed but I have also tried
rotating the tires after they had been balanced and I still get the
problem.  I also suspect that there may be some play in the ball joints
considering I have 203K and I don't think they have ever been replaced.
 
Anyway if someone lives in the SFO Bay area and you have a little time
this weekend I would like to get together.
 
I also have engine related questions that I would like to ask.
 
Thank you for your time.
 
David Mosher
Digital Graphic Artist Bond 3
Electronic Arts
92 Pearl White Stock VR-4 203K
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:59:44 -0700
From: "Thomas C. Cloud, III MD, MS" <tccloud@comcast.net>
Subject: Team3S: Team35: Alarm spontaneously activates when my 92 RT TT
 
My 92 RT TT is awesome except the alarm spontaneously activates when parked.
can someone give me an opinion of how I can solve this problem?
 
TOM CLOUD
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:39:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dunkin" <dunkin@netcarrier.com>
Subject: Team3S: Left/Right Blinker problem
 
   - 1991 3000GT VR4 -
 
     I think this is a problem with a lot of these cars the left/right turn signal switch malfunctions on snap back.  Tends to snap from a right turn all the way to a left turn when you straighten the wheel.  REAL ANNOYING especially if it goes unnoticed.  Not to safe if you ask me.  Whats the fix?  I can easily go in there and put a new one in but I don't want to have to pay for a new one.  This should be a recall or something.
Basically I want a free part is this possible?  Oh yea I avoid dealers like the plague so if anyone knows someone I can get the part from let me know.  Oh yea I assume the new part works correctly right???  Any info greatly appreciated....
 

                                                      Thanks,
                                                      Darius
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:46:04 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Seeking independent opinions maintenance needed of my 92 VR-4  203K
 
Hey, David,
 
A number of us are going racing this weekend (at Thunderhill, in Willows - 75
miles above Sacramento), but next week I'll have a little time.  Week nights
are better than weekends for me...  Too bad you don't feel like coming up and
joining us.  There will be a whole bunch of expert 3S wrenchheads there - you
couldn't get a better group together to look at your car...  And we've got
jacks, stands, tools..., to check things out.  IF you do come up, we'll be in
the middle of the paddock - a couple of green tents opposite the big NASA
green tent (and refreshment stand).  There's a free BBQ Sat night, if you want
to grab the wife/GF and make a day of it.  One of us might even give you a
ride around the track (no..., we're not hot-doggers).  ;-)  Geoff, Nissa, Ann,
ET, Rick, Michael, Bill, me and others will be there...  AND my tuner Vicman
Ng (Metric Motorsports) will be there too!
 
Best,
 
Forrest
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:42:06 -0400
From: "Mike Frey" <mike21b@ptd.net>
Subject: Team3S: RT/TT at 160K - rebuild it or get another one?
 
After 100,000 enjoyable, trouble free miles in my Stealth, I realized that
in the past year I've only put 2,000 miles on it. Most of the time, it just
sits in my garage, looking all shiny and ready to go. I have several other
cars to choose from. I've wondered whether I should:
 
A) Just get rid of it
B) Have it extensively redone
C) Sell it and get one with lower miles
D) Sell it and get a good modded one to fulfill the desires listed below
 
At 160K, with original trans, suspension, etc, it is getting a bit tired.
There are no signs of rust (do they rust?) Like many, I am "in love with my
car" and it sure would be nice to have a near-perfect condition Stealth or
VR4, even if I still only put 2K miles per year on it.
 
Cars in my mileage range seem to sell for, say, about $3,000.
Low mileage Twin Turbos look like they are priced in the mid teens.
 
Even if I got a low mileage 3s, I *will* drive it in the rain AND the snow.
That's what they're really good at!
 
Also, the thought of rebuilding, combined with the desire to have it
modified to give it something in the 400HP range makes me wonder which car
is best to do it on - mine, or a new lower mileage one? I'm thinking that
for $10,000, I could have these mods done to the one I have now, but wonder
about the whole car with that many miles on it.
 
At 47, I'm no boy racer, but the desire to have something that I don't need
to shy away from the occasional foray above 80-90-100-(more?) in the
presence of an  M5, C5, etc, makes me want a bit more zoom. As long as I
don't sacrifice drivability.
 
It would also be extra nice to not fear Audi's RS6, since I run with that
crowd in my A6 4.2 (good performance, but no match for the 3s). I know that
I would only have to pay a fraction of the $85,000 entrance fee to humble
them, too. ...An added bonus.
 
Any opinions or suggestions?
 
Mike
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:52:07 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RT/TT at 160K - rebuild it or get another one?
 
Assuming you've had the car for quite a while, you know its history from a problem standpoint and maintenance standpoint, and how the car has been driven for the last 100K miles or so.  So I wouldn't make the decision on mileage alone.  There are a lot of people on this list with way more than100K on the odo that have their cars modded out the wahzoo, and their cars run strong.  So, if I were you, I'd choose option (B).  The car is bought and paid for, so it's really not costing you anything, so why get rid of it?  And since these cars run well way into six figures on the ODO, why take the risks associated with (C) and (D) when you may never get the true picture of the car's history.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: chfmn@webtv.net (Walter Womack)
Subject: Team3S: Fwd: ECM problem?
 
Car was running fine.Had been for a long time.(92 Stealth tt).At approx
45 mph car just quit.The smell of something burning permeated the air in
the cabin.Pulled the ECM.Sure enough there had been a little fire in the
box.Lots of smokey parts and a hole thru the fiber glass board.Purchased
rebuilt ECM from Motor Logic San Diego Ca.Installed rebuilt ECM..Starts
as well as it ever did.Runs thru low RPM's fine.Good power,however,when
I hit the magic number 4500 rpm in any gear it looses
power,spits,stutters,backfires and does not allow the motor to rev any
higher.Nice big clouds of black smoke also.Put it in the garage
and rev it up with no load and it responds correctly through out the
entire rpm range all the way to redline.Did I buy a faulty ECM? Or is it
just a coincidince? Besides paying the tech $110.00 is there anyway to
find out myself? Thanks guys!
 
92 RTTT Pearl White
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:54:10 -0600
From: Chip Greenberg <chipg@pvtnetworks.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RT/TT at 160K - rebuild it or get another one?
 
Mike, I just went through a similar decision.  Decided on doing my 120k
service, struts, and keep the car until the next decision in 60k miles.
  I agree that knowing the history of the car is paramount.
 
100k is just a number...
 
when I bought my first new car in 1986 I took very good care of it. 
Dealer maintenance, kept in clean, etc.  When i started getting close
to 90k miles I slacked a little.  Washed it less, brought it to the
local garage for service, put my newer car in the garage, etc. Figured
it was near the end of it's useful life. By the time my VW GTi hit 120k
miles and was still problem free I had a paradigm shift.  The car
lasted another 10 years.  I actually sold it for $500 when I bought my
Stealth.  It needed a timing belt/waterpump job, tires and a few other
"expensive" things.  It was still a blast to drive and I saw it around
town for at least another two years!!
 
100,000 is just a number, keep your car
 
Chip
another 47 year old Stealth driver
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:44:43 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: Team3S: brakes
 
Hey all -
 
        How are powerslot rotors for normal street use?
 
        I'm seeing about 260 + s&h for front and rear... is that about
right?
 
Thanks,
Alex.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:34:47 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
As long as you don't do anything more strenuous than cruise the boulevard,
they should be OK. No panic stops from high speeds, no open tracking, no
hard usage of any kind.
 
They look good, but are genuine, 100%, pieces of s**T! I broke TWO of them,
just like this:
 
http://www.mn3s.org/brainard/brainard2.jpg
 
This was a Stillen rotor, but the PowerSlot broke exactly the same way.
 
If you want a really nice rotor, go to mitsupartsdirect.com, order two
stock rotors ($90 each), and take them someplace locally to get them
cryogenically treated ($20 per rotor). They will last forever on the
street, and won't warp.
 
Rich/shiftless old ricer
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:16:46 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
Will cryo'd stockers have the same stopping power as slotted/dimpled tho?  I
know I put stockers back on mine after having s/d rotors on it for months
(fronts only), and nearly rear ended someone!  Maybe a shop can do cryo and
slotting?
 
Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT - Stopping machine:
S/D front rotors
SS Brake Lines
DOT 5.1 Motul fluid
Perfect rev-matching heel&toes
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:34:13 -0500
From: "Jesse Rink" <jrink-3si@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
 
Alright.  I have an update for everyone.
I installed the fuel pressure gauge off Jeff L's website and find my car to
idle around 39psi or so.  When I hit 0 boost, it's around 45psi, and with
10psi, it hits 56psi or so.  So it seems that my fuel pressure is fine and
not the cause of my problems with knock.  Damn, was kinda hoping it was.
 
I'm thinking the next thing I need to do is take out the AFCII and put the
HKS AFR back in and see what happens.  If that doesn't succeed, I'll swap
out my 550s and go back to the 360s.
 
Any other thoughts?
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:55:09 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Team35: Alarm spontaneously activates when my 92 RT TT
 
Hey Tom -
 
We just had a discussion on this no more than a month ago - the subject was:
 
Re: Team3S: Replacing plugs, and Security system Ghost
Mid August time frame...
 
take a look at the archives, or if you were already a member, just take a
glance back!
 
Ken
 
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Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:02:43 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
 
See what voltage you are getting from you front and rear O2 sensors. It
should be at least 0.92 V at WOT.
 
Philip
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:03:54 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
At 09:16 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, Ken Stanton wrote:
>Will cryo'd stockers have the same stopping power as slotted/dimpled tho?  I
>know I put stockers back on mine after having s/d rotors on it for months
>(fronts only), and nearly rear ended someone!  Maybe a shop can do cryo and
>slotting?
>
Yes.
Slotted/dimpled is all bullshit.
Stopping power is all in the pads.
If you had a problem stopping, it was not because of the rotors.
 
Rich/shiftless old poop
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:05:59 -0400
From: "The Furmans" <L.Furman1@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RT/TT at 160K - rebuild it or get another one?
 
Mike this is one of those questions that you need to realistacally
think about, To humble an RS6 you are talking 17G sized turbos or
larger (cost about 2000-2400 for a pair of 17G turbos) and then
supporting mods.
 
Fuel pump, injectors and some form of fuel control (MAF Translator,
SAFC-II, AEM Plug and Play ECU at the highend of the spectrum).  At
this power level I would recommend a completely reworked Fuel system
(duel feed where each rail gets fed individually and then heads to a
regulator then back to the tank.
 
For suspension you have a multitude of options from new stock struts +
lowering springs, KYB GR-2s + Ground Control coil overs, all the way
up to TEIN HA's TEIN Flex or JIC FLTA2's at the higher end (read pricy
or $1400+)
 
And of the utmost importance is brakes you could go a simple as SS
brake lines, Porterfield R4S Pads, stock cryo treated rotors, and
Motul 600 brake fluid.  Other the other hand you could go with the AP
big brake kit (6 piston caliper and opt for the 14" rotors over the
13.5" that the kit defaults to) out front and the MOViT big brake kit
out back (porcshe boxter s calipers with custom 2 piece rotors
included in the kit)
 
Caveat to the above if opting for the big brake kits more than likely
you will need larger wheel and tire package that could run you as
little as 2300 all the way up to over 6K if you want HRE wheels and
Bridgestone Pontenza tires.........
 
your best bet is to read www.stealth316.com it is owned/maintaned by
Jeff Lucius a member/fellow 3Si enthusiast.  Consider that website the
online SME to our cars
 
Russ F
CT
93 VR-4 DR-650's and supporting mods
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:02:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RT/TT at 160K - rebuild it or get another one?
 
Bottom line.
 
Dont compare 3800lb performance with 3000lb performance.
 
Thats where the money-pit starts..
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:17:04 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
WHAT!!??
I think you're both full of shit!  Thats ridiculous, all I did was swap the
rotors out, and my braking power changed 2 fold!  I met a gentleman who
DESIGNS NASCAR ROTORS on a plane ride to florida, they run 22-24 slot rotors
on those cars, and he swears by them!  The slots provide extra 'bite' on the
pad, and provide a bit more cooling.  How can you say that!!??
 
007
Swears by slots, not cross-drills tho
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:26:46 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
It could have been because you have not bedded in your pads to your old
rotors that you almost rear-ended someone. You should have had about the
same braking power.
 
Slots are not that bad though, IMO. They do provide some brake feel
improvement, I was told. I have yet to crack a rotor like Rich did. :-)  I
think I will try some slots on my next set of rotors.
 
Philip
http://supercar-engineering.com
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:24:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
Theres a lot to be said about pad bedding as well.
 
Its also fully possible you had pads that didnt like what was on the "bad"
set of rotors..etc.
 
And ya..I know about slotted rotors, heres mine:
 
http://speedtoys.com/~gemohler/celicas/brakes/DSCF0224.jpg
 
But at the same time..the bite isnt the same for ALL pads either.  its not
a blanket solution.
 
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:35:43 -0500
From: "Jesse Rink" <jrink-3si@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
 
Phil.  It's above .92v.   I mentioned in my earlier post, I can tune the car
for .92 - .98 O2 voltages (front and rear) and still get heavy knock.
That's where the big question mark comes in.
 
Jesse Rink
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:34:41 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
In spite of your insulting manner (what happened to you, Ken? Take a
Valium, buddy), rotors have nothing to do with stopping on the street.
 
Sounds to me like you swapped rotors, and the pads and rotors are somewhat
incompatible. They have to be introduced to each other (bed the pads and
season the rotors). In a few days, they should be just fine.
 
For street use, drilled, slotted, treated, and whatnot rotors don't mean
diddly. Your NASCAR buddy is undoubtedly talking about RACING applications,
not street use.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:41:22 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
 
Check each spark plug. Make sure they are all the same grayish/brownish
color and none of them is white.
 
Philip
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:59:13 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
Well aren't racing and street one of the same?  I mean, granted we're not
going 100 into constant turns and hitting peak temperatures, but stop and go
traffic in the city and on the highway, and street racing can cause
temperatures to rise, and isn't that why we wanted upgraded brakes in the
first place?  Take 2 identical cars, one with slotted one without, drive
them through town and on the highway, or even do some street racing - then
side by side stop from.. say 80.  Who's gunna stop first??  You know where
my vote is!
 
I had the rotors on for about 1 week.  In that time, I drove the car hard,
gave the pads plenty of miles to get used to the smooth rotors.  Then I
slapped the s/d rotors back on, and BAM fast stop.  It was the same way when
I -first- put the s/d rotors on, b4 the pads had any chance to adapt.
 
Ken Stanton
"Don't mistake passion as anger." - KCS
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:57:42 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
The slots are not there to provide cooling --- the reason for their presence is
to allow the pad to outgas when everything is glowing red. I was told that the
modern pads don't have the same outgassing issues as back in the day so the
need for slots is minimal or nonexistent. I've tried to see the brakes when
NASCAR tech or some such program is on and the most I've seed is a rotor
with 8 or 10 slots. They are also pretty tough on pads.
 
        Jim Berry
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:21:10 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
Not necessarily. Stock pads and stock rotors will bounce the car off the
ABS, and you can't stop any faster than that. Stock pads will fade with
heat, of course, but the rotors have little to do with the fading of stock
pads. The only time rotors enter the picture is when they wear down to
discard depth, and can't dissipate the heat as well as they could when new.
 
I use stock rotors on the track, and they work as good as any other rotor,
with the possible exception of those HUGE Brembo rotors which, of course,
have a lot more surface area.
 
What is available to us in slotted and drilled rotors -- PowerSlots,
Stillens, and the like -- are all really trashy products. They break at the
hats, crack at the holes, and warp. 
 
No matter what your NASCAR buddy said, remember this: NASCAR, TransAm, Indy
Cars, and all them pro racers regard rotors as wear items. Rotors are
installed NEW at the beginning of each event, and thrown away afterward.
 
Still, I think you have a compatibility issue between your rotors and your
pads. Maybe a cleanup turn on the rotors is in order. Or new pads.
 
Rich
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 12:34:39 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
Alex,
 
I have zero experience with Powerslot rotors. I can say I have had Powerstop rotors and MetalMatrix pads on my modified '92 TT since 1999 and for ~11000 miles and have no complaints (no warping, no cracking, no brake fade, no squeeling, no excessive dust, etc). However, I drive sanely on the street (no panic stops from 100 mph - what form of street-driving stupidity would require such an action?) and I do not drive on a race track.
 
Are Powerslot or Powerstop the best rotors you can buy? Of course not! But that wasn't your question was it?
 
If it was me shopping right now for rotors, I would probably spend a little extra (than $260 for 4, which is an excellent price) if I had to and get a better factory-sized rotor, such as Porterfield or Brembo.
 
All emotional statements by others aside, I can tell you not one person has yet mentioned how the car stops. It is not the pads or the rotors. It is friction between the tires and the surface that they contact. Think about that as you drive (or race) and select tires.
 
Read more about brakes on my web page below.
 
http://www.stealth316.com/2-brakeupgrade.htm
 
Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:21:56 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: brakes
 
Ken, could your experience have been caused by the pads you reused?  (assuming you swapped out only the rotors, and reused the same pads)?
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:30:56 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: brakes
 
Jeff said:  "All emotional statements by others aside, I can tell you not one person has yet mentioned how the car stops. It is not the pads or the rotors. It is friction between the tires and the surface that they contact. Think about that as you drive (or race) and select tires."
 
I'm not sure I understand how this statement fits into the discussion about rotors and pads.  Friction between the tires and the surface they contact doesn't mean squat if the brakes (i.e., the pads and rotors) can't stop the wheel from going round and round.  Am I missing something here?
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:16:36 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
>> Am I missing something here?
 
You bet!
 
A car can come to a complete stop without the use of brakes (rotors and pads) because of friction between the tires and ground. You can try this yourself by finding a safe area, level ground, and simply putting the transmission in neutral (yes, the friction in the driveline will also contribute some). At the other extreme, if there is almost no friction between the tires and ground surface (take slightly wet ice as an example) the best brakes and rotors cannot stop the car.
 
How does it fit into the discussion of rotors and pads? Because the more general topic (I would "brakes" as a "subject" of a thread is fairly general), and the goal of using good braking systems, is to change the speed of the car and perhaps the direction. As part of this goal, tires are both integral and critical.
 
Of course, I thought this was stating the obvious. Perhaps not. :)
 
Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:18:02 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
>All emotional statements by others aside, I can tell you not one person
has yet mentioned how the car stops. It is not the pads or the rotors. It
is friction between the tires and the surface that they contact. Think
about that as you drive (or race) and select tires.
 
I woulda swore I said:
 
>Not necessarily. Stock pads and stock rotors will bounce the car off the
ABS, and you can't stop any faster than that.>
 
Maybe that was my alter ego talking about how the car stops.
 
Fact is, a set of el cheapo pads from AutoZone, warped rotors, and wore-out
brake fluid are capable of stopping our cars so well that the ABS will
engage and chirp the tires. You don't get more stopping power than that
unless you install a set of sticky race tires. Like Jeff says, tire choice
is the most important factor in determining stopping distance.
 
What better pads, rotors, and fluid do is help the car stop like that MORE
THAN ONCE.
 
I instructed "Data Logger Cable" Jon at Road America during his first time
on a track. He had stock rotors and new el cheapo pads. His brakes were
gone by the THIRD turn of his first lap!!
 
To upgrade brakes for street use, my recommendations are:
 
1. Better pads. Porterfield R4S is a good, proven street/performance pad.
There are others. Don't use race pads, because they don't work when cold,
and they score the rotor when used on the street.
 
2. Stock rotors ($90) cyrogenically treated (at your local shop) for $20
each.  You can also buy a set of Porterfield cryo'ed rotors, which are
probably exactly the same rotor, just $50 more.
 
3. Change the brake fluid to Motul or another high performance fluid. Ford
makes a perfectly good high performance fluid that is rather inexpensive
(read the label and compare).
 
These three steps will give you a set of brakes that stop more than once
and don't warp the rotors.
 
All those slotted, drilled and dimpled rotors do ON THE STREET is make you
look good whilst cruising the boulevard and when surrounded by gaggles of
admiring civilians. Paint the calipers red so they look like Porsche Big
Reds, and the girls will swoon.
 
Unfortunately, pretty slotted street rotors like PowerSlots and Stillens
can break if you take them on a track (been there, done that TWICE).
 
I don't know if we want to bring this up, but proper braking technique
helps a huge amount. If you are taking a spirited drive down some twisty
mountain roads that require hard braking, you can fade any brake setup --
even race pads -- by improper braking. Conversely, you can even make a
stock setup last longer by using proper braking.
 
Rich/somebody stop me!
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:28:29 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE: 3S-Racers: RE: Team3S: brakes
 
I understand all that, Flash, but I think we're comparing apples and oranges.  The question posed did not involve the interaction between rubber and road, but pad and rotor.  Ken's car didn't slip or slide;  he didn't almost go through the windshield;  he pounded on the brakes and the car was slow to stop.  As I understand, the wheels did not lock.  If you are experiencing a condition that affects the ability of the pads and rotors to stop the wheel, then the amount of friction between rubber and road ain't gonna stop you either.  That friction doesn't even come into play unless there's sufficient friction between pad and rotor to stop the wheel.  Now if you're saying that increased friction between rubber and road can contribute to an overheated pad/rotor, then I can probably agree with that.  The more friction between rubber and road, the quicker the stopping power and, voila, more heat is generated.  But I don't think the problem Ken was talking about was a rubber/road pr!oblem, but a pad/rotor problem.    Does that make sense?
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:35:04 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: brakes
 
Jeff said:  "A car can come to a complete stop without the use of brakes (rotors and pads) because of friction between the tires and ground.  You can try this yourself by finding a safe area, level ground, and simply putting the transmission in neutral (yes, the friction in the driveline will also contribute some)."
 
I'll try this next time I'm going 100 and will let you know what my stopping distance is!  ;)
 
Then, Jeff said, "Of course, I thought this was stating the obvious. Perhaps not. :)"
 
What would a "Jeff" post be without sarcasm?  Just call me stupid next time, Jeff.  And don't worry about hurting my feelings.  I have thick skin. :-0
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:47:43 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: brakes
 
Part of the difference of opinion about what brake and rotor combinations are "best" arises from the difference in intended use.  Part of it comes from differences in replacement strategies.  Part of it reflects difference in belief systems based on individual experience, lore, and individual bias.
 
Street use and track use are definitely different.  Brakes work better when they heat up.  Even aggressive street driving doesn't keep pads and rotors at the sort of operating temperatures you see on a road course.  This is why Hawk Blue pads tend to flake up if you use them on the street, but not on the track - they don't get up to operating temperature on the street. I believe that drag strip and road course brake temperatures would also be quite different.
 
At the track, we try to provide adequate cooling. This includes removing the "dust shields", which help to maintain high rotor temperatures during street driving. Many of us try to improve airflow to the brakes by removing front splash guard extensions or by adding ducting. Some people believe that cross-drilling improves rotor cooling: I'm one of these and even though I have a temperature probe I have never collected any data to support this belief. I have never broken a rotor at the track, cross-drilled or otherwise.  My son did get a Stillen Brembo rotor to disconnect from the hat at the track, but that incident involved driving the pad on that side down to the backer.
 
I just replaced my last set of front cross-drilled rotors with solid cryoed Porterfield rotors bought from Geoff a while back. Also changed to Hawk Blue from Carbotech Panther Plus. Proper bedding makes a big difference.  Seems to me that the cryoed rotors took longer to bed, but that could be the pads or just subjective.
 
Everybody maintains their brake systems differently.  I used to turn the rotors after every event. Now I turn them when I replace the pads.  Some people never turn their rotors, except perhaps if they warp.  I used to diassemble and clean the brakes after every event. Now I just inspect them and disassemble if I need to change pads.  I think if you are actually competing, instead of just practicing like I do, you might tend to be more anal about replacing and refurbishing the brakes before each event.
 
Sure, Jeff, brakes can't do more than the ABS allows, or more than lock up the wheels with ABS disabled, but they certainly affect the time and pedal pressure it takes to accomplish lockup.  It ain't an instantaneous process.
 
Chuck Willis
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:03:03 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
>> Just call me stupid next time, Jeff.
 
Nobody is calling Joseph stupid, especially not me. I would suggest that persons (in general) sometimes do not perceive the bigger picture and often the underlying principles. We are *all* guilty of this sometimes.
 
>> I'll try this next time I'm going 100 and will let you know what my
>> stopping distance is!
 
As for Joseph's obviously silly and juvenile statement about stopping from 100 mph (on a race track I hope!), the test I suggest would be entirely inappropriate. The test was designed only to illustrate the point. Which was, in case it was missed, that ultimately it is always the tire-ground surface interface that allows us to stop (and start, and change direction). The bottom line is be sure you have good, correct tires (which might be studded if driving or racing on ice) and then be sure your braking system (lines, fluids, rotors, pads, etc.) are up to the task you need them to perform.
 
As has been shown in numerous automobile magazine tests, the factory equipment provides excellent braking for sane and legal *street* driving. However, for those owners that have good tires and want a better braking system - that would be shorter and quicker stops, repeatedly, or reduced fade with long-term use - then aftermarket products (fluids and parts) and modifications (such as air- or water-cooling the brakes) are in order. I present the steps and products needed to accomplish this on my web page below. These tips follow those mentioned by Rich, Chuck, and other list members and industry recommendations.
 
http://www.stealth316.com/2-brakeupgrade.htm
 
The topic has also been brought up regarding holes and slots in rotors. For those that can't bring themselves to read my web page above, I'll provide a bit of text from it. It should be noted that Tom Wilson is referring to street driving and not race track use.
 
===============================================
.. the quote below from Tom Wilson's Technical Correspondence column in the March 2003 issue of Road & Track magazine:
 
  "Assuming minimal attention to where the holes are drilled, there is no meaningful difference between cast-in and drilled-in holes in rotors. ... The real difference is between drilled and non-drilled rotors. All those holes detract from a rotor's mass, and high mass content is a main ingredient in avoiding warping. As for cracking, all rotors will crack if overheated, and there is little difference between drilled and non-drilled rotors in that regard.
  "Cosmetics is why most rotors are drilled nowadays -- the old gassing problem that holes are supposed to address is negligible with good pads and all but absurdly flamboyant street driving -- so, many aftermarket brake tuners offer rotors with or without drilling to suit demand."
===============================================
 
Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/
 
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <starkeyje@bipc.com>
To: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>; <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 7:35 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: brakes
 
Jeff said:  "A car can come to a complete stop without the use of brakes (rotors and pads) because of friction between the tires and ground.  You can try this yourself by finding a safe area, level ground, and simply putting the transmission in neutral (yes, the friction in the driveline will also contribute some)."
 
I'll try this next time I'm going 100 and will let you know what my stopping distance is!  ;)
 
Then, Jeff said, "Of course, I thought this was stating the obvious. Perhaps not. :)"
 
What would a "Jeff" post be without sarcasm?  Just call me stupid next time, Jeff.  And don't worry about hurting my feelings.  I have thick skin. :-0
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:44:52 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
Someone address this statement directly, then -I- will feel satisfied...
 
"Slots on a rotor provide more -bite- on the pad as can be imagined.  This
provides a stronger contact between pad and rotor, and will stop you faster
at -any- temperature over a stock rotor."
 
This is what I argue, plain and simple.
 
Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT
Non rear-ending beast
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:03:04 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
The short answer is NO ----
 
The stopping power on a brake system is caused by the pad and it's coefficient
of friction plus the hydraulic force of the calipers pistons acting on the rotor. The
higher the coefficient of friction and the higher the pressure the more stopping
force applied to the rotor. Surface area is not entered into the equation nor
are slots --- as a matter of fact a rough surface is not ideal, that's one of the
reasons new pads and rotors need to be bedded. Slots may have a use as I and
others mentioned [ outgassing and cleaning the pad surface ] but the affects
are probably only seen in severe use --- think racing where repeated stops
from high speed is required. They have no use on a street application other than
looks.
 
        Jim Berry
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 11:05:19 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
At 11:44 AM 9/5/2003 -0400, Ken Stanton wrote:
>Someone address this statement directly, then -I- will feel satisfied...
>"Slots on a rotor provide more -bite- on the pad as can be imagined.  This
>provides a stronger contact between pad and rotor, and will stop you faster
>at -any- temperature over a stock rotor."
 
This may be true for an all-out racer, but not for what we do, on street or
track.
 
For us, all they do is act like a cheese grater, reduce the life of the
pads, and reduce the mass of the rotor so it can warp easier.
If anything, they provide LESS surface area for the pads to grab onto.
Besides, unless you buy an ultra-expensive ($3600) Brembo setup like Jack T
has, most of the slotted and drilled rotors available to us, like Powerslot
and Stillen, are pieces of junk.
 
Porterfield will drill and slot their rotors if you insist, but they advise
against it. That's a pretty good indication that they don't work.
 
When I worked on a TransAm car a couple of years ago, we used solid rotors.
Not drilled or slotted.
 
Izzat enough reason yet?
 
Rich/somebody stop me
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 11:46:25 -0400
From: troy.brumley@us.army.mil
Subject: Team3S: Lean Conditions
 
    I recently installed a krank vent kit and EGR block offs. Prior to the installation, the car ran fine (although the wiring needed work). After re-installing and soldering in the ARC2 and ARM1, I am showing a very lean condition. I drove around last night and the car felt fine. Drove it to work this morning and again it seemed fine. Just started it up and it feels like it is only firing on 5 cylinders. I hooked up the TMO datalogger and shut off each injector. When I shut down the #6 injector, I noticed only a slight change in idle. The injector is obviously working, but did not have the same impact I had with shutting the other injectors off. Any ideas? I have the datalogger, so is there something I should be looking at? Per the Datalogger, the car is showing three errors
Air Flow Sensor
Air Temp Sensor
Injector Circuit
 
Thanks
Mods:
92 RT TT, DR650s, Denso Pump, RC 550 Inj, MSD-DIS4, Copper Plugs, Accell 8MM wires, Greddy BOV, Blitz DSBC, ARC2, EGT guage, No cat, Stillen DP, ATR Exhaust
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:39:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: brakes
 
Thats a good description. but anyone educated in braking systems would not
use that as a blanket statement for ALL conditions.
 
Thats all we are saying.
 
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:04:01 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
 
As supposed, the FPR wasn't the problem at all. Our car isn't a DSM ;-)
 
As the next step, you can put the AFR back in as you may be more familiar
with it and the procedure is easer than swappign the injectors.
 
Also another thing that has not jet being mentioned is a possible skipped
timing belt so the timing may be off. Check it with the alignment of the
belt and if possible with a timing light just to be sure.
 
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #248
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