Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Friday, September 5
2003 Volume 02 : Number 248
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:48:16 -0500
From: "Geisel, Brian J" <
brian.geisel@hp.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
The DR500s definitely held boost on my earlier runs, but it's hard to say
since I haven't done too much with boost since putting them in (I never ran more
than stock boost w/ stock turbos... good for 13.3, BTW). I'm interested to
see what they'll do when I crank it up w/ 104o next time I hit the track.
BTW - thanx to everyone who responded, I have a good feel for what I'm
going to need to do now. Re gap the plugs seems to be #1, #2 - don't run
C16, try 104. I'm still not sure how much to lean it out on 104, but I'll
play with it and see what nets me the best times. Thanx again
everyone.
geis
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:34:10 -0400
From: "Planet" <
planet.j@sympatico.ca>
Subject:
Team3S: Check Engine Light, engine noises.
I have a 92 Stealth SOHC.
Im getting the check engine light, and I diagnosed it to be the O2
sensor.
This light has been on for months now and I thought it was the
leaking
downpipe I had. I just got a new downpipe from 3sxperformance and
its
installed. I reset it and was hoping not to see the light come back on.
The
light stayed off for a trip downtown and back which was a good hour and
a
half at highway speeds. The light came back on the next trip I took and
it
is again the O2 sensor. Now could the O2 be bad or is it something else
like
the manuals say. Injectors, intake, etc. How can I test the O2 sensor
itself
to see if it's working properly.
On a side note I noticed a ticking noise coming from the top of my
engine.
between the two rows of injectors and where the plenum is. Im not
sure if
this noise has always been there. Is this the common lifter
tick?
One more thing. There is a rattling noise I can hear from inside the
car
when stereo is off and all windows are closed. The noise is directly
related
to the engine being under a load, as in accelerating and
decelerating. If
the clutch is in, or in neutral. There is no noise. No-one
has been able to
answer me on this one. I have heard that I need to check the
throw out
bearings, but to my knowledge the tob is under load when the clutch
is down.
Any help would lower my stress factor right now. As this is my
commuter car
and Im a student with little money to spend.
Thanks!
Jason M
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:10:56 -0700
From: "Mosher, David" <
dmosher@ea.com>
Subject: Team3S: Seeking
independent opinions maintenance needed of my 92 VR-4 203K
Hello Everyone,
I was wondering if anyone is free at some point this weekend to take
a
look at my 92 VR4 with 203K. After working my A$$ off for the
last
couple of months I finally think I am going to have some time to
start
doing some maintenance on my VR-4. I am seeking
independent
"experienced" opinions of what needs to be done on my vehicle. My
long
tern goal is to restore the vehicle to like new condition with
possibly
some limited bolt on modifications that can be returned to stock
to
stock if desired. My hope is to meet with one or preferably more
3S
owners who have a good understanding of the engine and
suspension
systems; I would buy lunch and gas for you time.
One of the items on my list is the front suspension system and
possibly
the rear. Currently my symptoms are that the front end gets a
vibration
in shallow turns" the wheel is only turned about +or- 20 degrees
at
speeds of 50-80. It feels like a wheel is out of balance but funny
thing
is that it seems to go away when the wheel is centered or when I
am
above 90 MPH. I remember a similar problem that I had on my DSM and
it
turned out that CV Joints had worn out. I was also wondering if
the
wheel bearings could be a possible cause for the problem.
I do have some dings on my rims "due to wife's parking practices
:)"
that may be causing some imbalance at speed but I have also
tried
rotating the tires after they had been balanced and I still get
the
problem. I also suspect that there may be some play in the ball
joints
considering I have 203K and I don't think they have ever been
replaced.
Anyway if someone lives in the SFO Bay area and you have a little
time
this weekend I would like to get together.
I also have engine related questions that I would like to ask.
Thank you for your time.
David Mosher
Digital Graphic Artist Bond 3
Electronic Arts
92
Pearl White Stock VR-4 203K
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:59:44 -0700
From: "Thomas C. Cloud, III MD, MS"
<
tccloud@comcast.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Team35: Alarm spontaneously activates when my 92 RT TT
My 92 RT TT is awesome except the alarm spontaneously activates when
parked.
can someone give me an opinion of how I can solve this problem?
TOM CLOUD
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:39:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dunkin" <
dunkin@netcarrier.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Left/Right Blinker problem
- 1991 3000GT VR4 -
I think this is a problem with a lot of these cars
the left/right turn signal switch malfunctions on snap back. Tends to snap
from a right turn all the way to a left turn when you straighten the
wheel. REAL ANNOYING especially if it goes unnoticed. Not to safe if
you ask me. Whats the fix? I can easily go in there and put a new
one in but I don't want to have to pay for a new one. This should be a
recall or something.
Basically I want a free part is this possible? Oh
yea I avoid dealers like the plague so if anyone knows someone I can get the
part from let me know. Oh yea I assume the new part works correctly
right??? Any info greatly appreciated....
Thanks,
Darius
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:46:04 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Seeking independent opinions maintenance needed of my 92 VR-4 203K
Hey, David,
A number of us are going racing this weekend (at Thunderhill, in Willows -
75
miles above Sacramento), but next week I'll have a little time. Week
nights
are better than weekends for me... Too bad you don't feel like
coming up and
joining us. There will be a whole bunch of expert 3S
wrenchheads there - you
couldn't get a better group together to look at your
car... And we've got
jacks, stands, tools..., to check things
out. IF you do come up, we'll be in
the middle of the paddock - a
couple of green tents opposite the big NASA
green tent (and refreshment
stand). There's a free BBQ Sat night, if you want
to grab the wife/GF
and make a day of it. One of us might even give you a
ride around the
track (no..., we're not hot-doggers). ;-) Geoff, Nissa, Ann,
ET,
Rick, Michael, Bill, me and others will be there... AND my tuner
Vicman
Ng (Metric Motorsports) will be there too!
Best,
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:42:06 -0400
From: "Mike Frey" <
mike21b@ptd.net>
Subject: Team3S: RT/TT
at 160K - rebuild it or get another one?
After 100,000 enjoyable, trouble free miles in my Stealth, I realized
that
in the past year I've only put 2,000 miles on it. Most of the time, it
just
sits in my garage, looking all shiny and ready to go. I have several
other
cars to choose from. I've wondered whether I should:
A) Just get rid of it
B) Have it extensively redone
C) Sell it and
get one with lower miles
D) Sell it and get a good modded one to fulfill the
desires listed below
At 160K, with original trans, suspension, etc, it is getting a bit
tired.
There are no signs of rust (do they rust?) Like many, I am "in love
with my
car" and it sure would be nice to have a near-perfect condition
Stealth or
VR4, even if I still only put 2K miles per year on it.
Cars in my mileage range seem to sell for, say, about $3,000.
Low
mileage Twin Turbos look like they are priced in the mid teens.
Even if I got a low mileage 3s, I *will* drive it in the rain AND the
snow.
That's what they're really good at!
Also, the thought of rebuilding, combined with the desire to have
it
modified to give it something in the 400HP range makes me wonder which
car
is best to do it on - mine, or a new lower mileage one? I'm thinking
that
for $10,000, I could have these mods done to the one I have now, but
wonder
about the whole car with that many miles on it.
At 47, I'm no boy racer, but the desire to have something that I don't
need
to shy away from the occasional foray above 80-90-100-(more?) in
the
presence of an M5, C5, etc, makes me want a bit more zoom. As long
as I
don't sacrifice drivability.
It would also be extra nice to not fear Audi's RS6, since I run with
that
crowd in my A6 4.2 (good performance, but no match for the 3s). I know
that
I would only have to pay a fraction of the $85,000 entrance fee to
humble
them, too. ...An added bonus.
Any opinions or suggestions?
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:52:07 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: RT/TT at 160K - rebuild it or get another one?
Assuming you've had the car for quite a while, you know its history from a
problem standpoint and maintenance standpoint, and how the car has been driven
for the last 100K miles or so. So I wouldn't make the decision on mileage
alone. There are a lot of people on this list with way more than100K on
the odo that have their cars modded out the wahzoo, and their cars run
strong. So, if I were you, I'd choose option (B). The car is bought
and paid for, so it's really not costing you anything, so why get rid of
it? And since these cars run well way into six figures on the ODO, why
take the risks associated with (C) and (D) when you may never get the true
picture of the car's history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT)
From:
chfmn@webtv.net (Walter Womack)
Subject:
Team3S: Fwd: ECM problem?
Car was running fine.Had been for a long time.(92 Stealth tt).At
approx
45 mph car just quit.The smell of something burning permeated the air
in
the cabin.Pulled the ECM.Sure enough there had been a little fire in
the
box.Lots of smokey parts and a hole thru the fiber glass
board.Purchased
rebuilt ECM from Motor Logic San Diego Ca.Installed rebuilt
ECM..Starts
as well as it ever did.Runs thru low RPM's fine.Good
power,however,when
I hit the magic number 4500 rpm in any gear it
looses
power,spits,stutters,backfires and does not allow the motor to rev
any
higher.Nice big clouds of black smoke also.Put it in the garage
and
rev it up with no load and it responds correctly through out the
entire rpm
range all the way to redline.Did I buy a faulty ECM? Or is it
just a
coincidince? Besides paying the tech $110.00 is there anyway to
find out
myself? Thanks guys!
92 RTTT Pearl White
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:54:10 -0600
From: Chip Greenberg <
chipg@pvtnetworks.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RT/TT at 160K - rebuild it or get another one?
Mike, I just went through a similar decision. Decided on doing my
120k
service, struts, and keep the car until the next decision in 60k miles.
I agree that knowing the history of the car is paramount.
100k is just a number...
when I bought my first new car in 1986 I took very good care of it.
Dealer maintenance, kept in clean, etc. When i started getting close
to 90k miles I slacked a little. Washed it less, brought it to the
local garage for service, put my newer car in the garage, etc. Figured
it was near the end of it's useful life. By the time my VW GTi hit 120k
miles and was still problem free I had a paradigm shift. The car
lasted another 10 years. I actually sold it for $500 when I bought my
Stealth. It needed a timing belt/waterpump job, tires and a few other
"expensive" things. It was still a blast to drive and I saw it around
town for at least another two years!!
100,000 is just a number, keep your car
Chip
another 47 year old Stealth driver
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:44:43 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: Team3S:
brakes
Hey all -
How are powerslot rotors for
normal street use?
I'm seeing about 260 + s&h
for front and rear... is that about
right?
Thanks,
Alex.
------------------------------
As long as you don't do anything more strenuous than cruise the
boulevard,
they should be OK. No panic stops from high speeds, no open
tracking, no
hard usage of any kind.
They look good, but are genuine, 100%, pieces of s**T! I broke TWO of
them,
just like this:
This was a Stillen rotor, but the PowerSlot broke exactly the same
way.
If you want a really nice rotor, go to mitsupartsdirect.com, order
two
stock rotors ($90 each), and take them someplace locally to get
them
cryogenically treated ($20 per rotor). They will last forever on
the
street, and won't warp.
Rich/shiftless old ricer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:16:46 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: brakes
Will cryo'd stockers have the same stopping power as slotted/dimpled
tho? I
know I put stockers back on mine after having s/d rotors on it
for months
(fronts only), and nearly rear ended someone! Maybe a shop
can do cryo and
slotting?
Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT - Stopping machine:
S/D front
rotors
SS Brake Lines
DOT 5.1 Motul fluid
Perfect rev-matching
heel&toes
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:34:13 -0500
From: "Jesse Rink" <
jrink-3si@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Alright. I have an update for everyone.
I installed the fuel
pressure gauge off Jeff L's website and find my car to
idle around 39psi or
so. When I hit 0 boost, it's around 45psi, and with
10psi, it hits
56psi or so. So it seems that my fuel pressure is fine and
not the
cause of my problems with knock. Damn, was kinda hoping it was.
I'm thinking the next thing I need to do is take out the AFCII and put
the
HKS AFR back in and see what happens. If that doesn't succeed, I'll
swap
out my 550s and go back to the 360s.
Any other thoughts?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:55:09 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Team35: Alarm spontaneously activates when my 92 RT TT
Hey Tom -
We just had a discussion on this no more than a month ago - the subject
was:
Re: Team3S: Replacing plugs, and Security system Ghost
Mid August time
frame...
take a look at the archives, or if you were already a member, just take
a
glance back!
Ken
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:02:43 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
See what voltage you are getting from you front and rear O2 sensors. It
should be at least 0.92 V at WOT.
Philip
------------------------------
At 09:16 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, Ken Stanton wrote:
>Will cryo'd stockers
have the same stopping power as slotted/dimpled tho? I
>know I put
stockers back on mine after having s/d rotors on it for months
>(fronts
only), and nearly rear ended someone! Maybe a shop can do cryo
and
>slotting?
>
Yes.
Slotted/dimpled is all bullshit.
Stopping power is all in the pads.
If you had a problem stopping, it was
not because of the rotors.
Rich/shiftless old poop
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:05:59 -0400
From: "The Furmans" <
L.Furman1@cox.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: RT/TT at 160K - rebuild it or get another one?
Mike this is one of those questions that you need to realistacally
think
about, To humble an RS6 you are talking 17G sized turbos or
larger (cost
about 2000-2400 for a pair of 17G turbos) and then
supporting mods.
Fuel pump, injectors and some form of fuel control (MAF
Translator,
SAFC-II, AEM Plug and Play ECU at the highend of the
spectrum). At
this power level I would recommend a completely reworked
Fuel system
(duel feed where each rail gets fed individually and then heads
to a
regulator then back to the tank.
For suspension you have a multitude of options from new stock struts
+
lowering springs, KYB GR-2s + Ground Control coil overs, all the way
up
to TEIN HA's TEIN Flex or JIC FLTA2's at the higher end (read pricy
or
$1400+)
And of the utmost importance is brakes you could go a simple as SS
brake
lines, Porterfield R4S Pads, stock cryo treated rotors, and
Motul 600 brake
fluid. Other the other hand you could go with the AP
big brake kit (6
piston caliper and opt for the 14" rotors over the
13.5" that the kit
defaults to) out front and the MOViT big brake kit
out back (porcshe boxter s
calipers with custom 2 piece rotors
included in the kit)
Caveat to the above if opting for the big brake kits more than
likely
you will need larger wheel and tire package that could run you
as
little as 2300 all the way up to over 6K if you want HRE wheels
and
Bridgestone Pontenza tires.........
your best bet is to read
www.stealth316.com it is owned/maintaned
by
Jeff Lucius a member/fellow 3Si enthusiast. Consider that website
the
online SME to our cars
Russ F
CT
93 VR-4 DR-650's and supporting mods
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:02:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RT/TT at 160K - rebuild it or get another one?
Bottom line.
Dont compare 3800lb performance with 3000lb performance.
Thats where the money-pit starts..
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:17:04 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: brakes
WHAT!!??
I think you're both full of shit! Thats ridiculous, all I
did was swap the
rotors out, and my braking power changed 2 fold! I met
a gentleman who
DESIGNS NASCAR ROTORS on a plane ride to florida, they run
22-24 slot rotors
on those cars, and he swears by them! The slots
provide extra 'bite' on the
pad, and provide a bit more cooling. How
can you say that!!??
007
Swears by slots, not cross-drills tho
------------------------------
It could have been because you have not bedded in your pads to your old
rotors that you almost rear-ended someone. You should have had about the
same braking power.
Slots are not that bad though, IMO. They do provide some brake feel
improvement, I was told. I have yet to crack a rotor like Rich did.
:-) I
think I will try some slots on my next set of rotors.
------------------------------
Theres a lot to be said about pad bedding as well.
Its also fully possible you had pads that didnt like what was on the
"bad"
set of rotors..etc.
And ya..I know about slotted rotors, heres mine:
But at the same time..the bite isnt the same for ALL pads either. its
not
a blanket solution.
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:35:43 -0500
From: "Jesse Rink" <
jrink-3si@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Phil. It's above .92v. I mentioned in my earlier post, I
can tune the car
for .92 - .98 O2 voltages (front and rear) and still get
heavy knock.
That's where the big question mark comes in.
Jesse Rink
------------------------------
In spite of your insulting manner (what happened to you, Ken? Take
a
Valium, buddy), rotors have nothing to do with stopping on the street.
Sounds to me like you swapped rotors, and the pads and rotors are
somewhat
incompatible. They have to be introduced to each other (bed the pads
and
season the rotors). In a few days, they should be just fine.
For street use, drilled, slotted, treated, and whatnot rotors don't
mean
diddly. Your NASCAR buddy is undoubtedly talking about RACING
applications,
not street use.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:41:22 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Check each spark plug. Make sure they are all the same grayish/brownish
color and none of them is white.
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:59:13 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: brakes
Well aren't racing and street one of the same? I mean, granted we're
not
going 100 into constant turns and hitting peak temperatures, but stop and
go
traffic in the city and on the highway, and street racing can
cause
temperatures to rise, and isn't that why we wanted upgraded brakes in
the
first place? Take 2 identical cars, one with slotted one without,
drive
them through town and on the highway, or even do some street racing -
then
side by side stop from.. say 80. Who's gunna stop first??
You know where
my vote is!
I had the rotors on for about 1 week. In that time, I drove the car
hard,
gave the pads plenty of miles to get used to the smooth rotors.
Then I
slapped the s/d rotors back on, and BAM fast stop. It was the
same way when
I -first- put the s/d rotors on, b4 the pads had any chance to
adapt.
Ken Stanton
"Don't mistake passion as anger." - KCS
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:57:42 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
brakes
The slots are not there to provide cooling --- the reason for their
presence is
to allow the pad to outgas when everything is glowing red. I was
told that the
modern pads don't have the same outgassing issues as back in
the day so the
need for slots is minimal or nonexistent. I've tried to see
the brakes when
NASCAR tech or some such program is on and the most I've
seed is a rotor
with 8 or 10 slots. They are also pretty tough on pads.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Not necessarily. Stock pads and stock rotors will bounce the car off
the
ABS, and you can't stop any faster than that. Stock pads will fade
with
heat, of course, but the rotors have little to do with the fading of
stock
pads. The only time rotors enter the picture is when they wear down
to
discard depth, and can't dissipate the heat as well as they could when
new.
I use stock rotors on the track, and they work as good as any other
rotor,
with the possible exception of those HUGE Brembo rotors which, of
course,
have a lot more surface area.
What is available to us in slotted and drilled rotors --
PowerSlots,
Stillens, and the like -- are all really trashy products. They
break at the
hats, crack at the holes, and warp.
No matter what your NASCAR buddy said, remember this: NASCAR, TransAm,
Indy
Cars, and all them pro racers regard rotors as wear items. Rotors
are
installed NEW at the beginning of each event, and thrown away afterward.
Still, I think you have a compatibility issue between your rotors and
your
pads. Maybe a cleanup turn on the rotors is in order. Or new pads.
Rich
------------------------------
Alex,
I have zero experience with Powerslot rotors. I can say I have had
Powerstop rotors and MetalMatrix pads on my modified '92 TT since 1999 and for
~11000 miles and have no complaints (no warping, no cracking, no brake fade, no
squeeling, no excessive dust, etc). However, I drive sanely on the street (no
panic stops from 100 mph - what form of street-driving stupidity would require
such an action?) and I do not drive on a race track.
Are Powerslot or Powerstop the best rotors you can buy? Of course not! But
that wasn't your question was it?
If it was me shopping right now for rotors, I would probably spend a little
extra (than $260 for 4, which is an excellent price) if I had to and get a
better factory-sized rotor, such as Porterfield or Brembo.
All emotional statements by others aside, I can tell you not one person has
yet mentioned how the car stops. It is not the pads or the rotors. It is
friction between the tires and the surface that they contact. Think about that
as you drive (or race) and select tires.
Read more about brakes on my web page below.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:21:56 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: brakes
Ken, could your experience have been caused by the pads you reused?
(assuming you swapped out only the rotors, and reused the same pads)?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:30:56 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: brakes
Jeff said: "All emotional statements by others aside, I can tell you
not one person has yet mentioned how the car stops. It is not the pads or the
rotors. It is friction between the tires and the surface that they contact.
Think about that as you drive (or race) and select tires."
I'm not sure I understand how this statement fits into the discussion about
rotors and pads. Friction between the tires and the surface they contact
doesn't mean squat if the brakes (i.e., the pads and rotors) can't stop the
wheel from going round and round. Am I missing something here?
------------------------------
>> Am I missing something here?
You bet!
A car can come to a complete stop without the use of brakes (rotors and
pads) because of friction between the tires and ground. You can try this
yourself by finding a safe area, level ground, and simply putting the
transmission in neutral (yes, the friction in the driveline will also contribute
some). At the other extreme, if there is almost no friction between the tires
and ground surface (take slightly wet ice as an example) the best brakes and
rotors cannot stop the car.
How does it fit into the discussion of rotors and pads? Because the more
general topic (I would "brakes" as a "subject" of a thread is fairly general),
and the goal of using good braking systems, is to change the speed of the car
and perhaps the direction. As part of this goal, tires are both integral and
critical.
Of course, I thought this was stating the obvious. Perhaps not. :)
------------------------------
>All emotional statements by others aside, I can tell you not one
person
has yet mentioned how the car stops. It is not the pads or the rotors.
It
is friction between the tires and the surface that they contact.
Think
about that as you drive (or race) and select tires.
I woulda swore I said:
>Not necessarily. Stock pads and stock rotors will bounce the car off
the
ABS, and you can't stop any faster than that.>
Maybe that was my alter ego talking about how the car stops.
Fact is, a set of el cheapo pads from AutoZone, warped rotors, and
wore-out
brake fluid are capable of stopping our cars so well that the ABS
will
engage and chirp the tires. You don't get more stopping power than
that
unless you install a set of sticky race tires. Like Jeff says, tire
choice
is the most important factor in determining stopping distance.
What better pads, rotors, and fluid do is help the car stop like that
MORE
THAN ONCE.
I instructed "Data Logger Cable" Jon at Road America during his first
time
on a track. He had stock rotors and new el cheapo pads. His brakes
were
gone by the THIRD turn of his first lap!!
To upgrade brakes for street use, my recommendations are:
1. Better pads. Porterfield R4S is a good, proven street/performance
pad.
There are others. Don't use race pads, because they don't work when
cold,
and they score the rotor when used on the street.
2. Stock rotors ($90) cyrogenically treated (at your local shop) for
$20
each. You can also buy a set of Porterfield cryo'ed rotors, which
are
probably exactly the same rotor, just $50 more.
3. Change the brake fluid to Motul or another high performance fluid.
Ford
makes a perfectly good high performance fluid that is rather
inexpensive
(read the label and compare).
These three steps will give you a set of brakes that stop more than
once
and don't warp the rotors.
All those slotted, drilled and dimpled rotors do ON THE STREET is make
you
look good whilst cruising the boulevard and when surrounded by gaggles
of
admiring civilians. Paint the calipers red so they look like Porsche
Big
Reds, and the girls will swoon.
Unfortunately, pretty slotted street rotors like PowerSlots and
Stillens
can break if you take them on a track (been there, done that
TWICE).
I don't know if we want to bring this up, but proper braking
technique
helps a huge amount. If you are taking a spirited drive down some
twisty
mountain roads that require hard braking, you can fade any brake setup
--
even race pads -- by improper braking. Conversely, you can even make
a
stock setup last longer by using proper braking.
Rich/somebody stop me!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:28:29 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
3S-Racers: RE: Team3S: brakes
I understand all that, Flash, but I think we're comparing apples and
oranges. The question posed did not involve the interaction between rubber
and road, but pad and rotor. Ken's car didn't slip or slide; he
didn't almost go through the windshield; he pounded on the brakes and the
car was slow to stop. As I understand, the wheels did not lock. If
you are experiencing a condition that affects the ability of the pads and rotors
to stop the wheel, then the amount of friction between rubber and road ain't
gonna stop you either. That friction doesn't even come into play unless
there's sufficient friction between pad and rotor to stop the wheel. Now
if you're saying that increased friction between rubber and road can contribute
to an overheated pad/rotor, then I can probably agree with that. The more
friction between rubber and road, the quicker the stopping power and, voila,
more heat is generated. But I don't think the problem Ken was talking
about was a rubber/road pr!oblem, but a pad/rotor problem.
Does that make sense?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:35:04 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: brakes
Jeff said: "A car can come to a complete stop without the use of
brakes (rotors and pads) because of friction between the tires and ground.
You can try this yourself by finding a safe area, level ground, and simply
putting the transmission in neutral (yes, the friction in the driveline will
also contribute some)."
I'll try this next time I'm going 100 and will let you know what my
stopping distance is! ;)
Then, Jeff said, "Of course, I thought this was stating the obvious.
Perhaps not. :)"
What would a "Jeff" post be without sarcasm? Just call me stupid next
time, Jeff. And don't worry about hurting my feelings. I have thick
skin. :-0
------------------------------
Part of the difference of opinion about what brake and rotor combinations
are "best" arises from the difference in intended use. Part of it comes
from differences in replacement strategies. Part of it reflects difference
in belief systems based on individual experience, lore, and individual
bias.
Street use and track use are definitely different. Brakes work better
when they heat up. Even aggressive street driving doesn't keep pads and
rotors at the sort of operating temperatures you see on a road course.
This is why Hawk Blue pads tend to flake up if you use them on the street, but
not on the track - they don't get up to operating temperature on the street. I
believe that drag strip and road course brake temperatures would also be quite
different.
At the track, we try to provide adequate cooling. This includes removing
the "dust shields", which help to maintain high rotor temperatures during street
driving. Many of us try to improve airflow to the brakes by removing front
splash guard extensions or by adding ducting. Some people believe that
cross-drilling improves rotor cooling: I'm one of these and even though I have a
temperature probe I have never collected any data to support this belief. I have
never broken a rotor at the track, cross-drilled or otherwise. My son did
get a Stillen Brembo rotor to disconnect from the hat at the track, but that
incident involved driving the pad on that side down to the backer.
I just replaced my last set of front cross-drilled rotors with solid cryoed
Porterfield rotors bought from Geoff a while back. Also changed to Hawk Blue
from Carbotech Panther Plus. Proper bedding makes a big difference. Seems
to me that the cryoed rotors took longer to bed, but that could be the pads or
just subjective.
Everybody maintains their brake systems differently. I used to turn
the rotors after every event. Now I turn them when I replace the pads.
Some people never turn their rotors, except perhaps if they warp. I used
to diassemble and clean the brakes after every event. Now I just inspect them
and disassemble if I need to change pads. I think if you are actually
competing, instead of just practicing like I do, you might tend to be more anal
about replacing and refurbishing the brakes before each event.
Sure, Jeff, brakes can't do more than the ABS allows, or more than lock up
the wheels with ABS disabled, but they certainly affect the time and pedal
pressure it takes to accomplish lockup. It ain't an instantaneous
process.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
>> Just call me stupid next time, Jeff.
Nobody is calling Joseph stupid, especially not me. I would suggest that
persons (in general) sometimes do not perceive the bigger picture and often the
underlying principles. We are *all* guilty of this sometimes.
>> I'll try this next time I'm going 100 and will let you know what
my
>> stopping distance is!
As for Joseph's obviously silly and juvenile statement about stopping from
100 mph (on a race track I hope!), the test I suggest would be entirely
inappropriate. The test was designed only to illustrate the point. Which was, in
case it was missed, that ultimately it is always the tire-ground surface
interface that allows us to stop (and start, and change direction). The bottom
line is be sure you have good, correct tires (which might be studded if driving
or racing on ice) and then be sure your braking system (lines, fluids, rotors,
pads, etc.) are up to the task you need them to perform.
As has been shown in numerous automobile magazine tests, the factory
equipment provides excellent braking for sane and legal *street* driving.
However, for those owners that have good tires and want a better braking system
- that would be shorter and quicker stops, repeatedly, or reduced fade with
long-term use - then aftermarket products (fluids and parts) and modifications
(such as air- or water-cooling the brakes) are in order. I present the steps and
products needed to accomplish this on my web page below. These tips follow those
mentioned by Rich, Chuck, and other list members and industry
recommendations.
The topic has also been brought up regarding holes and slots in rotors. For
those that can't bring themselves to read my web page above, I'll provide a bit
of text from it. It should be noted that Tom Wilson is referring to street
driving and not race track use.
===============================================
.. the quote below from
Tom Wilson's Technical Correspondence column in the March 2003 issue of Road
& Track magazine:
"Assuming minimal attention to where the holes are drilled, there is
no meaningful difference between cast-in and drilled-in holes in rotors. ... The
real difference is between drilled and non-drilled rotors. All those holes
detract from a rotor's mass, and high mass content is a main ingredient in
avoiding warping. As for cracking, all rotors will crack if overheated, and
there is little difference between drilled and non-drilled rotors in that
regard.
"Cosmetics is why most rotors are drilled nowadays -- the old
gassing problem that holes are supposed to address is negligible with good pads
and all but absurdly flamboyant street driving -- so, many aftermarket brake
tuners offer rotors with or without drilling to suit demand."
===============================================
Jeff said: "A car can come to a complete stop without the use of
brakes (rotors and pads) because of friction between the tires and ground.
You can try this yourself by finding a safe area, level ground, and simply
putting the transmission in neutral (yes, the friction in the driveline will
also contribute some)."
I'll try this next time I'm going 100 and will let you know what my
stopping distance is! ;)
Then, Jeff said, "Of course, I thought this was stating the obvious.
Perhaps not. :)"
What would a "Jeff" post be without sarcasm? Just call me stupid next
time, Jeff. And don't worry about hurting my feelings. I have thick
skin. :-0
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:44:52 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: brakes
Someone address this statement directly, then -I- will feel
satisfied...
"Slots on a rotor provide more -bite- on the pad as can be imagined.
This
provides a stronger contact between pad and rotor, and will stop you
faster
at -any- temperature over a stock rotor."
This is what I argue, plain and simple.
Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT
Non rear-ending beast
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:03:04 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
brakes
The short answer is NO ----
The stopping power on a brake system is caused by the pad and it's
coefficient
of friction plus the hydraulic force of the calipers pistons
acting on the rotor. The
higher the coefficient of friction and the higher
the pressure the more stopping
force applied to the rotor. Surface area is
not entered into the equation nor
are slots --- as a matter of fact a rough
surface is not ideal, that's one of the
reasons new pads and rotors need to
be bedded. Slots may have a use as I and
others mentioned [ outgassing and
cleaning the pad surface ] but the affects
are probably only seen in severe
use --- think racing where repeated stops
from high speed is required. They
have no use on a street application other than
looks.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
At 11:44 AM 9/5/2003 -0400, Ken Stanton wrote:
>Someone address this
statement directly, then -I- will feel satisfied...
>"Slots on a rotor
provide more -bite- on the pad as can be imagined. This
>provides a
stronger contact between pad and rotor, and will stop you faster
>at -any-
temperature over a stock rotor."
This may be true for an all-out racer, but not for what we do, on street
or
track.
For us, all they do is act like a cheese grater, reduce the life of
the
pads, and reduce the mass of the rotor so it can warp easier.
If
anything, they provide LESS surface area for the pads to grab onto.
Besides,
unless you buy an ultra-expensive ($3600) Brembo setup like Jack T
has, most
of the slotted and drilled rotors available to us, like Powerslot
and
Stillen, are pieces of junk.
Porterfield will drill and slot their rotors if you insist, but they
advise
against it. That's a pretty good indication that they don't work.
When I worked on a TransAm car a couple of years ago, we used solid
rotors.
Not drilled or slotted.
Izzat enough reason yet?
Rich/somebody stop me
------------------------------
I recently installed a krank vent kit and EGR block
offs. Prior to the installation, the car ran fine (although the wiring needed
work). After re-installing and soldering in the ARC2 and ARM1, I am showing a
very lean condition. I drove around last night and the car felt fine. Drove it
to work this morning and again it seemed fine. Just started it up and it feels
like it is only firing on 5 cylinders. I hooked up the TMO datalogger and shut
off each injector. When I shut down the #6 injector, I noticed only a slight
change in idle. The injector is obviously working, but did not have the same
impact I had with shutting the other injectors off. Any ideas? I have the
datalogger, so is there something I should be looking at? Per the Datalogger,
the car is showing three errors
Air Flow Sensor
Air Temp
Sensor
Injector Circuit
Thanks
Mods:
92 RT TT, DR650s, Denso Pump, RC 550 Inj, MSD-DIS4,
Copper Plugs, Accell 8MM wires, Greddy BOV, Blitz DSBC, ARC2, EGT guage, No cat,
Stillen DP, ATR Exhaust
------------------------------
Thats a good description. but anyone educated in braking systems would
not
use that as a blanket statement for ALL conditions.
Thats all we are saying.
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:04:01 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
As supposed, the FPR wasn't the problem at all. Our car isn't a DSM
;-)
As the next step, you can put the AFR back in as you may be more
familiar
with it and the procedure is easer than swappign the
injectors.
Also another thing that has not jet being mentioned is a possible
skipped
timing belt so the timing may be off. Check it with the alignment of
the
belt and if possible with a timing light just to be sure.
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#248
***************************************
