Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, September 4 2003 Volume
02 : Number 247
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:55:58 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
>> TPS does matter. If the ECU does not see full
throttle,
>> or WOT, it will not go into open loop mode,
therefore
>> trying to sense the o2 sensor, and not fully
utilizing
>> any maps you may have modified using a AFC /
whatever.
This is contrary to the almost countless hours I have spent watching both
my ARM1 A/F meters under a wide variety of engine operating conditions ('92
Stealth TT). The O2 meters show non-cycling and rich quite easily at part
throttle. I have *lots* of datalogs that record this. In fact, I would have to
say the ECU pretty much ignores the intermediate TPS values. A recent log shows
near constant TP at ~"25%" with an increasing RPM. At ~1650 rpm the ECU went
into open-loop mode (as shown by a non-cycling rear O2 sensor - TMO log). The
ECU did not return to closed-loop mode until I let off the throttle a little and
rpm leveled near 2800.
From my experience and the Tech Manuals, the ECU switches from closed-loop
mode to open-loop mode during both acceleration and deceleration - as determined
from engine speed, not throttle position (except maybe for deceleration). There
is no "intermediate" stage. Our ECU is in either open or closed loop mode.
Period. It does not "try to sense the o2 sensor" in open-loop mode. In open-llop
mode, it ignores the O2 sensors and uses internal maps.
Another small point, the S-AFC, ARC2, MAF-T, AFR, and VPC do not modify the
ECU maps as you suggest above. These devices modify the MAS signals that the ECU
sees (air volume flow in Hz, air temp, baro pressure). The ECU's maps remain,
sadly, unchanged.
Perhaps we should rename this thread if we want to continue on this
subject? Not that there is anything new being discussed. This ECU functionality
is well known among both DSM and 3S enthusiasts and documentation can be found
in the Tech Manuals and at my web site, among other places.
For those interested in how fuel injection is controlled in our cars:
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:00:40 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: ECU blah-blah
At 22:46 02.09.2003 -0500, cody wrote:
>I have a little news for you
Roger, ever played with a DSM, then a 3000,
>back to back? The ECU's
act IDENTICAL. The motors are very similar
>too.
The knock sensing circuit and of course the programm in the CPU are
different. The rest is only hardware and behaves upon the commands of the
CPU. An inline 4 acts pretty different than a V6 ... point. Therefore the
programs inside a CPU is different as well, timing, knock reaction and, and
,and ...
Fact is, that the DSM world cannot be simply applied to the 3S, you already
noticed this. As an example check out the different ECU's for a 3s, cali
ECU vs. others, EU vs. japanese. Just a simple note that the european ECU
start to retard the timing at 13 knock sums, but depends on what rpm range
and on what fuel map it runs. So your magic number only belongs to the high
rpm/load area. Even there, sometimes you can see a retard at 10 knock sums
and sometimes no retard at all at 20 knock sums ... forget the magic
number.
>I only run pump gas because when I drive the thing on the street, I
want
>the same power I make at the track. I will put some race gas
in, up the
>boost to about 26 or 28 psi (2 psi at a time), and see what
she does
>then... You say little inline 4, but they are the same
displacement per
>cylinder. ECU retards timing due to lots of
variables, but all others
>being equal, 8 (or is it 9) is the magic number
where timing is
>retarded, and the ECU is trying to save the motor.
You think I don't
>know that air flow per rpm, air intake temp, barometric
pressure don't
>all have an effect??? Please...
>
>In
fact, all methods proven on a DSM I guarantee will hold true when
it
>comes to tuning a 3/S car. The ECU's are almost identical, the
engine
>design similar. Again, the important part, the ECU's react
the same to
>certain inputs.
>
>TPS does matter. If the
ECU does not see full throttle, or WOT, it will
>not go into open loop
mode, therefore trying to sense the o2 sensor, and
>not fully utilizing
any maps you may have modified using a AFC /
>whatever.
At what voltage of the TPS will go the ECU to open loop ? Also how many
MAPs do our ECU's have ?
>There was something wrong with that car knocking at .8 bar. Plain
and
>simple. Either that, or 3/S cars suffer from phantom knock as
well.
It was a first gen Eclipse ... no problems, car runned pretty well, just
had always knock.
> In
>fact, every once in a while I have this weird,
unexplainable problem, in
>which I get knock BETWEEN shifts - sometimes
it's there, sometimes its
>not, sometimes it holds through the gear,
sometimes its just for that
>split second between shifts...
You my search the archive and you will find the solution.
>You could prolly learn a lot about the design of the ECU from the
DSM
>boards, there is more tech info there than I've ever seen regarding
any
>Mitsu ECU...
Good to know that we have a DSM Guy on the list if a member needs help on
other than 3S car.
BTW, all the blah-blah did not help to solve the original problem yet. So
let's try to focus o nthe problem and give correct advises. As an example,
it doesn't help if one only writes "adjust your TPS". One have to specify
the range and parameters or specs a part should be adjusted to. Otherwise
the problem owner still has no clue what to do.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:49:40 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
(I did make the mistake of putting open loop, instead of closed
loop
earlier)...
I meant MAPS being how the ECU was reading airflow. There is
no
intermediate stage, but Open loop / closed loop is determined
by
throttle position. Cruising at 6000 rpm at part throttle, the o2
sensor
will cycle as well, therefore it is NOT due to engine speed, that is
a
guarantee. At part throttle, it will sense the o2 sensor.
Also, the ONLY thing the S-AFC modifies is air flow in hz, none of
the
other variables are touched.
WOT - wide open throttle - this is the ONLY time that the ECU is in
open
loop mode. When you are decelerating, the ECU also senses the
absence
of throttle, and declining engine rpm, as well as low air flow
values,
thus pulling almost all fuel for fuel economy.
We can discuss this all we want... But what it comes down to is
overall
tuning.
As far as the original posters problem, I already told him how to
fix
that - check fuel pressure, then start adding more fuel via the AFC
if
fuel turns out to be ok.
And Roger, there are
different "maps" stored in the ECU, one for low
airflow, one for medium
airflow, one for high airflow, and one for wide
open throttle.
I do not know the specifications of the exact voltages of the
throttle
position sensor, but I can tell by looking at the TMO log that if
the
ECU isn't reporting it's 100% open, then there is a POTENTIAL
problem.
I love how you guys overanalyze EVERYTHING.
Also, Roger, obviously the 1st gen Eclipse didn't run very well if
it
knocked at .8 bar. If I can run 21 psi or better on pump gas
(1.4ish
bar), then that car had issues, and did NOT run well.
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:03:55 -0700 (PDT)
From:
davis2005@canada.comSubject: Team3S:
Braking at high speeds
Hey All. When I brake at over 60mph my car shakes and
my steering wheel
shakes alot. Is that normal? How can
I fix this problem? Thanks. Jeff
Davis
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:07:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jim Floyd <
jim_floyd7@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Braking at high speeds
Turn your rotors ?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:44:38 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
>> I meant MAPS being how the ECU was reading airflow.
The 3S ECU does not use the manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAPS) to
read airflow on 1996+ models. It is used only for emissions (in particular, the
EGR system).
>> There is no intermediate stage, but Open loop / closed
>>
loop is determined by throttle position.
(Almost) complete nonsense. I have many DSM and 3S TMO datalogs that prove
this is false. But believe what you want. The ECU may use open-loop mode
exclusively at WOT (TPS voltage > 4.5). However, it also can use open-loop
mode at any throttle position voltage greater than 1 (idle).
>> Cruising at 6000 rpm at part throttle, the o2 sensor
>>
will cycle as well, therefore it is NOT due to engine
>> speed, that is
a guarantee.
You misunderstand. It is the *change* in engine speed not a specific speed.
>> Also, the ONLY thing the S-AFC modifies is air flow in
hz,
>> none of the other variables are touched.
Of course. The S-AFC and the AFR are the simplest of airflow signal
conditioners. However, the MAF-T, ARC2, and VPC mentioned in the same sentence
modify all three signals (flow, temp, press).
>> WOT - wide open throttle - this is the ONLY time
>> that
the ECU is in open loop mode.
Again. Complete nonsense for both DSM and 3S cars as is easily seen in many
TMO datalogs and by any owner observing A/F meters (O2 sensor monitors). And
again, believe what you want though. :)
>> ... check fuel pressure, then start adding more fuel
via
>> the AFC if fuel turns out to be ok.
Truly bizarre.
>> there are different "maps" stored in the ECU, one
>> for
low airflow, one for medium airflow, one for
>> high airflow, and one
for wide open throttle.
Please show any evidence of this. All reported information I have seen
indicates that our ECU maintains two fuel injection maps - one for "premium"
fuel (no knock present) and one for "regular" fuel (high or repeated knock
sensed). As in *all* automotive ECUs, each map covers the entire range of
airflow and RPM that could expected to be encountered.
>> I do not know the specifications of the exact voltages
>>
of the throttle position sensor, but I can tell by
>> looking at the
TMO log that if the ECU isn't reporting
>> it's 100% open, then there
is a POTENTIAL problem.
The extent of your misconceptions is outstanding! The ECU does not know
about TPS percentages. Nor does it report percentage to any datalogger. This
information is simply not available and so cannot be used. The TMO *software*
reads TPS voltages from the ECU and the *software* divides the value by 5 to
present a percentage.
>> I love how you guys overanalyze EVERYTHING.
There is no overanalyzing going on. I and others see your posts presenting
erroneous and sometimes dangerous (for the engine) information regarding our
cars. I, for one, find this requires a response.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:55:51 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Well, I guess I"ll keep telling everyone wrong information, It's
only
gotten two 4 cylinder cars into the 11's on pump gas, bolt ons,
stock
internals, and a little larger than stock turbo. I may not have
every
little voltage detail perfect, but my methods DO work. For over
two
years, we haven't damaged a motor, nor do we intend on it. On race
gas,
one of our cars has went 11.5 at 120 with no motor mods except for
cams,
stock bottom end / valves,l and bolt ons, no nitrous, no upgrade ecu
or
ignition, just afc....
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:59:17 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Cody wrote:
> WOT - wide open throttle - this is the ONLY
time
> that the ECU is in open loop mode.
Ok, so what am I missing?
AFAIK, the O2 sensor readings are only really useful when the A/F is 14.7
or very close to it. Thus, anytime the A/F is something other than 14.7,
the readings from the stock (narrow-band) O2 sensors are not useful from the
ECU's perspective. The only exception I can think of is if the O2 voltage
was < 0.5V while the target A/F is < 14.7; this would indicate that the
car is running scary lean under acceleration/load and perhaps the ECU would take
corrective action.
If the output of the O2 sensors is, at some time, not valid/useful, I would
think that the ECU would not be paying attention to them at that time.
That is the very definition of an open-loop control system - when the feedback
(in this case O2 sensors) is disconnected or ignored. Thus, it would seem
to me that any time the ECU richens the mixture (e.g. acceleration enrichment at
part throttle) it would necessarily be running in open-loop mode, because it has
no valid feedback with which to close the control loop.
------------------------------
How old are your brake pads? Did you bed them according to the
manufacturer's recommended procedure? Hard braking or minimal
braking?
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:00:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Braking at high speeds
Its normal for warped rotors yes.
A new set of rotors & pads should fix you right up.
You also have a multitude of choices as well.
The Goodguys page can help you a lot, as well as the FAQs.
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:24:56 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Basically, at partial throttle conditions, the ECU looks at the
o2
sensor and says "ok, it's rich, lets try less fuel" then it will
see
lean, so it adds more fuel, then it sees rich, so it adds less...
It
cycles back and forth in closed loop mode. In Open loop mode, the
ECU
entirely ignores the o2 sensor in favor of a pre-programmed map
stored
inside, in which it compares air flow with RPM to determine IDC.
A point to be made is that the partial throttle base map stored in
the
ECU, is not really three different maps, but instead one map
with
different "trims" for differing airflow. Less than a certain hz,
and
you on low trim, between the next two, and you are on the middle
trim,
above another frequency, and you are on the high trim.
BTW, Also, I know our cars don't use a MAP sensor for anything, and
I
was talking about the MAPS, as in map, plural. Again, like I
said
previously - a lot of you all overanalyze everything... Show me a
11
second 3/S that you yourself tuned, and I'll start listening a
little
more, and before anyone goes to the weight argument, all the DSM's
I've
helped into the low 12's and 11's have all been full weight
cars,
weighing in at 3300 lbs.
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:48:33 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Cody wrote:
> Basically, at partial throttle conditions, the ECU
looks at the o2
> sensor and says "ok, it's rich, lets try less
fuel" then it will see
> lean, so it adds more fuel, then it sees
rich, so it adds less...
> It cycles back and forth in closed loop
mode.
Not always. If, under partial throttle conditions, the load exceeds a
certain value, the ECU switches to open-loop mode with an A/F target much less
than 14.7. I know for a fact that this happens in stock 3/S ECUs as I've
seen it in my car and several others on many occasions.
My point is that, unless you're running a wide-band O2 sensor, the ECU is
only capable of running in closed-loop mode if the target A/F is 14.7:1.
If the target A/F is anything other than that, the stock ECU must be in
open-loop mode. From observation and common sense, the ECU does not always
target a 14.7:1 A/F under partial throttle conditions; therefore, the ECU does
not always run in closed-loop mode at partial throttle.
Cody wrote:
> Show me a 11 second 3/S that you yourself
tuned,
> and I'll start listening a little more, and
> before
anyone goes to the weight argument, all the
> DSM's I've helped into the
low 12's and 11's
> have all been full weight cars, weighing in at 3300
lbs.
That's not productive. ETs don't necessarily correlate to tuning
knowledge. There are several people on this list and elsewhere in the 3/S
community who I'd listen to any day of the week and they don't have an 11-sec
timeslip. Also, one can have an 11-sec car that drives like complete crap
on the street - that doesn't mean he has a lot of tuning knowledge.
------------------------------
Whew. I was wondering when we'd get back around to the original
post
regarding my engine knock problem with my 550s, Walbro, and AFCII.
Cody - I guess I agree and disagree with you. Regarding checking my
fuel
pressure, I agree. In fact, I just bought an Autometer
3363
(recommendation from Jeff L. - thanks man, your site comes through
once
again!) fuel pressure gauge and will be installing it tonight. I'll
let
everyone know what readings I get after the install... In reference
to
idle pressure and pressure with boost.
However, I disagree about your statement that if my fuel pressure is
fine
to just richin up the AFCII even more. I'm already at -15 with
550s at
6psi. If I have to go any richer, theres obviously SOMETHING
wrong. I
can't feasibly believe I should be around -2 or so on my AFCII
just to hit
10psi - something MUST be wrong. If the fuel pressure isnt
the problem,
there's gotta be another problem I'm not seeing. I dont
think the right
answer is to just richer up the mixture even more.
Seems more like a
workaround than a real fix.
Just my $.02.
Jesse Rink
Eagle, WI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:11:57 -0500
From: "Jim Fay" <
jfay@tssu.com>
Subject: Team3S: Lower ball
joints
I recall seeing on the list someone who could get ball joints for the
lower
A arms. Does anyone have this information. I have searched
the archives
and can not find it. any help would be appreciated.
Jim
91 RTTT
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:58:22 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Ok, so all these daily driven DSM's I've helped work on, in the 11's
and
low 12's show no tuning knowledge whatsoever?
If you all don't want to go fast, then so be it, but there are
some
risks. So far, in the past two years, no one has blown a
motor. One
person spun two rod bearings, but that motor had 178K on it,
making low
12 second passes all day long.
According to all the HP calculators, (none of us have ever seen a
dyno
or a wideband), the strongest car is making somewhere in
the
neighborhood of 450-500 hp, or approx 250 hp / liter.
BTW, my own car - low 12's, 22 psi, pump gas, daily driven, and
still
gets 26 mpg on the highway... But, I know nothing about
tuning
according to Jeff and Roger... Please... Never blown a
motor, never
touched the inside of the motor on my car which happens to have
147K
miles on her, and have no other mods except bolt-ons. Big turbo,
of
which I'm not even entirely using (capable of 26-28 psi on race
gas),
small front mount IC, exhaust, intake, plug wires, clutch, and
big
injectors... fuel control - S-AFC...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:00:17 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
And you are prolly right, but it COULD narrow down the issue...
Meaning
- - if fuel pressure is ok, and adding more doesn't help, then you
could
have a lot of carbon buildup inside the cylinder, or spark plugs
that
are causing detonation. If additional fuel does help, maybe
your
injectors are not the correct size, or do not flow as advertised.
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:02:04 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Oh, never rule out a faulty knock sensor, or even lifters. Lifter
tap
can be heard as knock in some instances...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:08:48 -0400
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Jesse -- Have you installed your upgraded fuel pump at the same time
that
you installed your upgraded injectors? It is likely that you did
not
install your fuel pump correctly. We just fixed one Walbro pump
yesterday
on a local car. It had an internal leak. It was leaking the fuel
back in
the tank from underneath the rubber O-ring on the pump outlet. The
symptoms
are unusually high setting on the AFC, takes too long to start,
backfires
in severe cases.
Yesterday's car had that O-ring installed so badly that disconnecting
the
fuel pressure regulator vacuum lime, or even clamping the fuel return
line
completely shut with flat pliers did not increase the idle fuel pressure
a
single bit.
Check recent messages on
http://groups.yahoo.com/mi3si or
http://groups.yahoo.com/a23si. There
will be a link to a picture gallery.
On the second page of the gallery is me
holding that pump assembly powered
on and submerged in a bucket of water with
water shooting through the
O-ring and all over the floor. All I did was I
just blocked the pump outlet
with my thumb.
Interesting, that Wlbro pump does not have a pressure relief valve
like
many other pumps. When we fixed the O-ring and repeated the bucket test
it
just stopped reving and was sitting there and humming. We shut in down
not
to burn it.
Philip Glazatov
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:10:04 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
speed bleeders
There was an issue of different sizes between the front and rears
and
model years [ hmmm --- it rhymes ]. Do a search of the archives or
measure
them.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:12:52 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Erik wrote:
> > That's not productive. ETs don't necessarily
> > correlate to tuning knowledge.
Cody wrote:
> Ok, so all these daily driven DSM's I've helped work
on, in
> the 11's and low 12's show no tuning knowledge whatsoever?
I didn't say that. I said that it doesn't guarantee tuning
knowledge. Obviously you know something about tuning cars - I'm not
talking about you in particular. As for partial throttle tuning, having an
11-second car says almost nothing about that skill or understanding. I
don't know many people using partial throttle at the strip =)
Cody wrote:
> If you all don't want to go fast, then so be it,
but
> there are some risks. So far, in the past two years,
>
no one has blown a motor. <...>
I'm not saying that I or others don't want to go fast; just that some of us
choose to go fast in events other than drag racing and therefore won't have
11-sec timeslips, no matter how well-tuned or powerful our car is. I'm not
going to say, "show me a top-5 finish in a regional SCCA Solo-II event and then
I'll listen to you" to a drag racer - because I don't think that's
productive.
I think the horse is thoroughly squished. I'm done.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:14:54 +0000
From:
mjannusch@comcast.netSubject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Is that a 3/S car, you are talking about - or something else?
Seriously, there are a number of differences tuning-wise between DSMs and
3S
cars. In general a lot of concepts apply, but the V6 design and its
ECUs have
various quirks and design parameters which the DSMs do not.
Its just not a good idea to directly apply what works on DSMs to 3S
cars. It
just doesn't work in all cases. We can learn from what
has worked there, but
it isn't realistic to say "I run 22 psi on pump gas"
on a DSM and therefore
suggest that you should do the same on a 3/S
motor.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
(DSMs - been there, done that)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:33:34 -0500
From: "Geisel, Brian J" <
brian.geisel@hp.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
Hey folks,
I hate race
gas! I emptied my tank the other day and put 3 gal of 117 NOS in (They
call it NOS b/c it is "specially formulated" for turbo charged cars and cars
running NOS - <shrug> whatever). Mods which make a difference, I'll
try to list below.
So first run I
leaned out 3% across the board. Ran like crap, but ran .01 off my best
ever 60' time. Had problems after 4.5k in 3rd & 4th. Leaned out
10% for my second run, and ran an even better 60' time (like 1.82) and still had
problems in 3rd and 4th. I was running 1.07 bar by this time
(boost). I finished this run @ 104, which is below my best ~105.8 on pump
gas.
Obviously I wasn't leaning
out enough, right? Added another 3% and ran worse, like 101 I think.
Still beat the ~2002 Mach1 beside me. So I wasn't still to rich
<shrug>. My best run all night was 13.3 @ 104. Pump gas best
at ~1.02bar - 13.008! @ ~105.8
I
would have been running higher boost, but I was having a problem w/ my boost
controller, I think I had something hooked up wrong there... BTW boost was
around .92 after 4.5k in 3rd gear... I definitely had more power through first
and most of second though.
Thoughts?
TIA,
geis
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:54:16 +0000
From:
mjannusch@comcast.netSubject: Re:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
> Obviously I wasn't leaning out enough, right? Added
another
> 3% and ran worse, like 101 I think. Still beat the
~2002
> Mach1 beside me. So I wasn't still to rich
<shrug>. My
> best run all night was 13.3 @ 104. Pump
gas best at
> ~1.02bar - 13.008! @ ~105.8
With very high octane race fuel, you need to add more timing advance to get
the big power out of it. The higher the octane, the slower the mixture
burns
(in general, depending on what exactly is in the race fuel), so you
need more
advance to keep the cylinder pressures high right after TDC.
In your case, running only 1.05 bar, you would've been a lot better off
running a 50/50 mix of premium and 100 octane unleaded.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:48:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
Wow..
Remember that the higher the octane the SLOWER the burn.
I suppose theres such a thing as too much..
Try "normal" 100 octane race gas..not the 'fancy' stuff.
117 unleaded?
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Funny you should ask. I just got mine in the mail.
Took about a week.
Paid via Pay Pal.
Cost is $110US for a set (2) which includes shipping.
They come with
boot and grease nipple and C-clip.
They come from New Zealand, from Sir Bob:
Haven't put them in yet, but they look just fine. Tell 'em Rich sent
ya.
Rich/shiftless old ricer and slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:13:22 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
What we've been going to lately is 109 octane, unleaded. VP just
came
out with it, MS-109, with no harmful effects to the o2 sensor or cat
(if
you still have one)...
Also, when switching from pump gas to race gas on 22 psi, we were
able
to lean out a car on average 30% on the AFC, that's how much extra
fuel
we were having to add to quell knock.
117 made for turbo cars is called C16, or highly leaded gas.
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:30:30 -0500
From: "Geisel, Brian J" <
brian.geisel@hp.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
Cody,
This on a 3S or on a
DSM?
I was originally pulled back -28 @ 8k and I went to -38 @8k for my best run
(still not pulling in 3rd/4th). -20% is mathematically correct for my
450cc injectors. I was talking w/ a bunch of DSM guys at the track
(NewEngland DSM is a great club and they've adopted the 3kgt guy :). 8%
off stock running pump gas seemed like a lot to them, so that's when I tried 38%
(10% additional)... 40% got me a 101mph.
And, yes, for all those who didn't know what I was talking about... C16 is
Sunoco 117 octane race fuel, and it is leaded.
(Pertinent) Mods - since I left them off the last post:
450cc inj
(cleaned & balanced)
Iridium plugs gapped at .040" -- slight
blow-out at 4.5k on pump gas @ 1.00 bar
DR500 Turbos
MBC @
1.07bar
Supra Fuel Pump
SAFC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:34:39 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
DSM, unfortunately, no one in San Antonio except Mike Tucker is into the
VR4's...
Weird problem... You have cats, or what mods total?
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:44:14 -0500
From: "Geisel, Brian J" <
brian.geisel@hp.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
BTW, my Ir plugs are .040", what's anyone else running near 15-17psi?
Additional Mods (engine/DT only):
Accel Wires
Gutted
Pre-cats
(Stock Cat/Exhaust otherwise)
RPS Stage II, Fidanza
Flywheel
Unortho Pulley
K&N FIPK
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:48:27 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
I would say your plugs are gapped
too high. And iridium...
I've had the best luck with copper plugs.
They don't last as long, but to me
it's worth it due to performance
issues. I was actually seeing knock
with iridium / platinum spark plugs
that was gone the instant I changed to
copper. Leaving gap the same
too...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:07:26 -0500
From: "Geisel, Brian J" <
brian.geisel@hp.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
Yeah, Matt Monett has a set of coppers on his site that are 1 range
colder. He claims you can usually run ~1psi higher w/ them, but change
them every 10k miles. For a 2 hour job, I can't be changing plugs every
10k mi. I'm still wondering if my gap is too big though... especially for
the Ir. <shrug>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:08:10 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
I have IK22's (1 range colder) and they are factory gapped to 0.032".
They
have seemed to bring the knock down a bit in my car, but she's
relearning
right now too since i had a vacuum leak. At 15psi I get NO
knock, at 19 w/
alky I'm only seeing 5-10counts when coolant gets up to
195+. And
absolutely never had spark blowout, even on my stock plugs at
0.035" gap.
Oh, and btw... destroyed a Mach 1 on the highway not too long ago -
60mph
rollon, he was in my draft even (for a few seconds).
Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT
Mustang destroyer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:12:24 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 22:23:00 -0400
From: David Friedlander <
forzion@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Lower ball joints
Jim;
Thanks for looking into my power antenna question. Hope you can help with
an
answer. Speaking of answers, Scott is in Gladwin, MI and sells them for
$50
each. I received them pretty quickly and installed them the next day. I'm
happy
to report all's now well. Here's a copy of Scott's e-mail to me:
-
----------
Hey there I am selling the lower ball joints for the stealth and
3000gts,
Anyone who has had to replace these should know that this is a
dealer only part
and you have to buy the whole lower control arm with it. I
checked my local
dealer and it was $480.00 The ball joints I am selling are a
sealed ball joint
like the factory. They do not have a grease fitting these
should last you as
long or longer then the factory ball joints. You just
press the old ones out
and the new ones in. Ball Joints are shipped most of
the time with in 2
business days after payment is received. Price on these is
$50.00 each shipped.
If you order 4 or more I can cut you a little better
deal. Email/Paypal me at
chvyragtop@aol.com- ----------
He gets my thumbs up. HTH,
Dave Friedlander
'94 SL
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:48:00 -0400
From: "Theo Kafantaris" <
kafantaris.3@osu.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: Loud Rod Knock!!!
Hello everybody. This is my first message to Team3s and,
unfortunately, it
comes along with bad news. I just purchased a 1991
Dodge Stealth RT/TT last
week, and I changed some things to get it to run
(fuel filter, new plugs,
fuel pump hotwire, etc, etc). I got it running
good and I went for a ride.
While driving a bit, I noticed a really loud
knocking sound from the engine.
I stopped, and sure enough, it's a rod
knock. Now I am faced with a
decision: Try and fix, or try and
sell.
I was just wondering if I could get some suggestions from
other
3000gt/stealth owners. I figure if I try and do it myself, I will
probably
be getting into more than I can handle. Therefore, I checked
Autozone, and
for $3500, I can get a longblock (block, rods, pistons,
heads,
cams...everything except the turbos), which I should be able to
install. I
also contacted a local mistubishi dealer (last resort), and
they said it
would cost $3000-$4000 for the repair (new shortblock, labor,
etc). I'm
just looking for some guidance on this matter. It's
unfortunate...such a
beautiful car.....
I also heard a suggestion to remove the oil pan, check the crank,
and
possibly replace the bad crank bearing if it's on the small end of the
rod,
and the crank isn't bad...Any suggestions?
Theo
1991 Dodge Stealth RT/TT
P.S. I live in Warren, OH (Youngstown, OH area), so if anybody knows
any
shops that
I could contact for rebuild information, that would be
great.
P.S.S Anybody have a guide on removing the oil pan and viewing the
crank?
From what I've seen, quite a few owners have had rod knocks - maybe
they
have tried this before.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:11:16 -0400
From: Darren Schilberg <
dschilberg@spamcop.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Loud Rod Knock!!!
Theo - Welcome to the Ohio Valley area I gueee (I'm in Pittsburgh and visit
the Warren/Poland/Youngstown area occasionally). You will need to
bookmark
Jeff Lucius' site,
www.stealth316.com, as the Rosetta Stone
for our cars. On
there he has the removal procedures for the oil pan,
www.stealth316.com/2-
oilpan.htm.
As for shops in the area I don't know of any in your neck of the woods but
I
knew someone who worked at the Summit Racing shop who was supposed to be
moving to MA but I forget if he did or not - he had the bead on good shops
in
the area. If nothing else, stop down near the Pittsburgh Int'l
Airport to
Andretti Mitsubishi,
www.andrettimitsubishi.com, (yes -
owned by *that*
Andretti family) as I know they are a good shop. This
should be around an
hour's drive from you if you find nothing else.
- --Flash!
Just north of Pittsburgh
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:35:09 -0700
From: "Chris Winkley & Teri
Beaman" <
cwinkley@hevanet.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
Brian...
1. You're running leaded gas which is going to foul your O2 sensors
very
quickly. Even mixing leaded gas with unleaded fouls them (I'm speaking
from
personal experience). You can get 104 unleaded most places (Sunoco) and
it
runs great at over 20 pounds of boost.
2. Your plugs are gapped too wide if you're going to be running over 1.0
bar
(~15 psi), a little more boost and you'll be slamming your head on
the
steering wheel.
My suggestion...upgrade your injectors and fuel pump, regap the plugs
(I
stick with NGK platinum), mix 104 unleaded race fuel with 92 octane
premium
, crank the boost to 1.5 bar and you'll be in the mid 12s with no
problem.
Your gas tank should be nearly empty, remember that most fluids
weigh about
seven pounds per gallon, it only takes a couple gallons to get to
a gas
station after you've had all the fun you can stand with a five gallon
fuel
can that you carry in the car. There's been lots of discussion about
taking
weight off our cars, the simple fact is that a full tank of gas weighs
as
much as carrying a passenger.
As a reference point my list of mods are below, I blew a turbo last
summer
when the axle nut came off running a 12.5 second 1/4 mile. Soooo, I've
been
running in the mid 12s for two years trying to figure out why I can't
break
into the 11s and the fact is I had only one turbo spinning. The 11s
are
realistic with pump gas if you have the right injectors and control
over
your fuel map (sounds like you do) with boost in the 20s (psi). Just
keep an
eye on the EGTs, it seems the magic piston melting number is
somewhere
around 900 degrees C.
Looking forward...Chris
1995 Glacier Pearl White Mitsubishi VR4 (w/custom K&N intake, bored
and
polished throttle body, TEC 15G turbos, RC 560cc injectors, HKS fuel
pump,
ARC2/MAF fuel controller, Split Second A/F meter, GReddy PRofec A
boost
controller, Apex EGT & boost gauges, GReddy turbo timer, HKS SBOV,
custom
intercoolers, Odyssey dry cell battery, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, NGK
double
platinum plugs gapped at .032", ACT 2800 lb pressure plate, Broward
six puck
racing disc, Centerforce throwout bearing, ATR downpipe and test
pipe,
GReddy catback exhaust, Stillen cross-drilled rotors, Porterfield R4
race
pads, SS brake lines, Eibach 1" dropped progressive springs, Michelin
SX
MXX3 Pilots).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:13:52 -0400
From: "Arthurs Family" <
arthursfam@madbbs.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Loud Rod Knock!!!
Theo,
Just read your post & had to respond. Wow! Does this
sound familiar! My
son bought '92 RT/TT last March, and 10 miles after
draining the sludge from
pan & refilling with Mobil 1....wham!
There goes a rod bearing! In his
(our) case there was but 1
option...fix it ourselves! Our only experience
with engines was small
block Chevys from 40 years ago, and a few Healeys, &
TR's from more
recent years. The most electronics I'd seen on an engine
was changing
an 8 track player for casette!
Anyway, we purchased the manuals, hard copies & cd's., asked a
lot of
questions at this site (got a lot of help & encouragement here),
and Jon
waxed up his credit card.
To sum it up, the engine/trans came out just as easily as any I've
yanked
before! The rebuild was classroom perfect. I gained much
respect for the
precision of the "rice burner" engines. The parts were
easier & quicker to
get than for my '99 Ford truck (average 2 days from
local Chrysler dealer @
cost + 10%).
The parts, which included all the 60, 000 mile stuff +oil pump/pulleys,
new
clutch/press plate/to bearing, machine work/crank & bearings and a
few
non-essential(toys!) parts added up to approx $3000.
The time involved
was 4 weeks of evenings & weekends. Have to throw
in the 5 a.m. snow
brushing of wife's car because all bays were
filled.
Anyway......the part I feared most, the myriad of connections, was
the
easiest! everything just went snap, snap, snap after looking
at blown up
pics of where everything went! Car started right up,
Jon & I both suffered
the first few thou break in miles, then finally had
the chance to try this
sucker out! 5000 miles later,( since late
april!) all is well (knocking on
my wooden desk)!
If you'd like to discuss this more, e-mail us or give a call!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 08:56:57 -0500
From: "William J. Crabtree" <
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Loud Rod Knock!!!
Theo,
I think everyone is ignoring the obvious. Where did you buy this
car? A
dealer? A private owner? Check your state laws, you
may be entitled to
some sort of refund or assistance in paying for the
repairs (whether you do
it yourself or not).
Hopefully, this is not your ONLY car. If it is your only source
of
transportation, the first "part" you may want to consider buying is a
$500
SH!T-box to run around town in while you rebuild. You are starting
down a
road that MANY of us have traveled. The good news is, if you
have the time
and money, it can be a rewarding experience to rebuild this car
yourself.
The FIRST question is one you have to ask of yourself: Do I want a
cool car
that'll just get me back and forth to work and play or do I want the
fastest
3/S car on the planet? Obviously your answer will fall
somewhere in the
middle of those two extremes, but you will have to decide to
what degree you
want each of those things along this road.
I'd say, stay FAR, FAR away from the AutoZone motor option, it may
sound
like a bargain, but it's likely NOT. As I'm finding out with mine
(I'm on
my second rebuild now) cutting corners and trying to use the lowest
priced
option can and will end up costing you more in the long run.
Take your time
with this and make your choices carefully, in the end it will
all be worth
it!!
If you've spun a bearing, pulling the oil pan is really irrelevant,
the
inevitable is: You are looking at either replacing OR repairing
your
crankshaft. Minimum. Hopefully, you have not done damage to
your rods or
the block(which is less likely than just damaging the
crank). Find a
reputable machine shop/engine rebuild in your
area. If you can get your
motor out of your car and take it to
them. They will likely be able to save
you hundreds, even thousands of
dollars by re-using the original parts of
your motor that CAN be
re-used. Money that you can spend on other things
to upgrade your
car and/or get it back on the road.
Be sure you ask a LOT of questions and search the member's
websites.
Therein lies all the knowledge and experience you need to restore
your car
to BETTER than new. You obviously care enough to ask our
opinions, and that
says allot about you already. Hopefully you choose
to keep the car!
Welcome to the club, we're glad you're here.
- -Jeff Crabtree
'91 R/T TT
(3SI
#0499)
2k Jeep TJ
Sport
St. Louis, MO
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:35:28 -0400
From: "The Furmans" <
L.Furman1@cox.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Problems w/ 117 Octane and boost
Geis I definately think you gap is way too large unless you are
running
some form of ignition upgrade (MSD Coils, DIS-4, HKS DLI) I
would gap
those puppies down to .036, doing this will slightly
decrease your fuel
economy but you will get rid of the blow out.
Also what do you think of the DR-500's? I have 650's sitting on
a
shelf in my garage awaiting the bottom half of my motor to arrive so
I
can begin the reassembly process.
Russ F
CT
93 VR-4 DR650's and supporting mods.
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#247
***************************************