Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, September 3 2003 Volume 02 : Number
246
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:38:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
The more lean you adjust, the more timing advance you get, because the
ECU
sees "less air" and therefore less load..allowing more advance.
Just my two cents.
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:52:36 -0500
From: "Jesse Rink" <
jrink-3si@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
I realize how air adjustments on a fuel controller effect the amount of
air
the ecu sees and hence, the timing advance. But that doesn't
explain why
I'm getting crazy knock at such LOW boost and why my AFC-II
settings have to
be so rich in order to somewhat quell knock at such low
boost. Having my
AFC-II set for -15 to -19 or so with 550cc
injectors at LOW boost (under
7psi) is nuts. There's obviously
something wrong here. I could probably
set my AFC-II for a richer
mixture, but geez, that's nuts, something is
defintely wrong if I have to do
that.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:46:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
I know..makes NO sense..
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:59:19 -0600
From: "Donald Ashby" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
are you sure they are 550cc injectors? :)
Donald Ashby
'93 3000GT
VR-4 (RIP)
'92 3000GT VR-4 (Vroom!)
"Don't drink and park, accidents cause
people!"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:05:24 -0500
From: "Jesse Rink" <
jrink-3si@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
I'm 99% sure. The place I bought them from (Import Power Online) does
not
sell 450s. IPO also says that his 550s are equivilents of
RC550s, so they
are true 550s, not 510cc injectors like the ones from
DarkSide Racing. I'm
taking his word for it. IPO has never given
me reason to disbelieve him,
he's always been MORE than forthcoming with any
questions I've had.
------------------------------
I need help tracking down a leak in my car. I do not have
a
sunroof! My door was shut all the way, and my windows
were up!
My car was parked on an incline, with the engine
on the steep part.
When I returned to my car after
leaving it sit for 3 days I discovered a
lake in my rear
floorboard on the passenger side. The driver's side
was
shielded from the rain from the side of the house. I
guess if
anyone has any clue as to what might have caused
this, let me know.
The only thing I could come up with is that it leaked from
under the
dash and ran to the back floorboard. This would
be my guess because it
sorta felt damp in the front
floorboard and underneath the seat was also
wet. As bad
as it sucked having to borrow a shop vac from my mom and
spending an hour vacuuming it out, it sure made me laugh.
It
baffled me too... Things like this just don't usually
happen.
Thanks,
Carol Decker
91 Stealth R/T TT
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:57:46 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
I had a similar problem with my DSM... Boost pressure would
increase,
but fuel pressure would not increase as much. At higher
boost
pressures, it would wreak havoc on my AFC tuning... Assuming this as
a
problem, I purchased a fuel pressure gauge to monitor it.
I subsequently upgraded the fuel pump, installed all 6an lines and
a
adjustable fuel pressure regulator. After all this, my tuning
issues
were no more, and the AFC's curve was more of a line...
Also, I have come to the decision that anyone upgrading to a Walbro
255
HP, whether DSM or 3/S needs to upgrade their FPR regardless. If
not,
the pump will definitely overflow it and raise fuel pressure at
low
engine speeds / boost / idle. Also, on a friends car, we were
having
some other weird tuning issues, and just by rewiring the fuel pump,
it
took care of those issues, and led to a 1/4 ET of .6 better, or a
11.9
at 117...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:59:10 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
How much did they cost??? Sometimes you are better off with the
real
thing. RC550's, or better yet, Denso's are much much better in the
long
run than any of the semi-generic ones...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 10:23:32 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
At 00:57 02.09.2003 -0500, cody wrote:
>I subsequently upgraded the fuel pump, installed all 6an lines and
a
>adjustable fuel pressure regulator. After all this, my tuning
issues
>were no more, and the AFC's curve was more of a line...
The FPR is not a problem with its linearity unless you go over 20 psi or
so. Read his original post again and you will notice that boost is alow as
stocvk to prevent knock.
>Also, I have come to the decision that anyone upgrading to a Walbro
255
>HP, whether DSM or 3/S needs to upgrade their FPR
regardless.
> If not,
>the pump will definitely overflow it
and raise fuel pressure at low
>engine speeds / boost / idle.
Not on our cars. We already have the larger fuel pump and the overflow
stuff is for those guys who bypass the fuel pump relay. There is no
increase in fuel pressure just because of the fuel pump swap. It's always a
bad idea to run the pump on 12V at idle !!!
> Also, on a friends car, we were having
>some other
weird tuning issues, and just by rewiring the fuel pump, it
>took care of
those issues, and led to a 1/4 ET of .6 better, or a 11.9
>at 117...
This has nothing to do with this case as he's not running out of fuel.
Again he speaks of good O2 values what indicates that there is no lean
situation.
A fuel pressure gauge is always a good idea for tuning, not question on
that. But here the symptons may lead to everything else but fuel. Although
we all know that too much fuel can also cause higher knock there can be
much more non-fuel related sources for the problem. This starts at the fuel
quality, oil in the y-pipe (lowers octane rating), ignition issues (bad
burn), erratic knock sensor, bad motor mounts, spun rod bearings, stuck
lifters. Since only one O2 sensor seems to be monitored there can still be
a clogged injector. Often seen on non-OEM injectors (i.e. not Blitz, Denso
or HKS but bored out and tuned ones). Also leaky injectors or damaged
O-rings may be the cause when we again look at the fuel side. But then you
should be able to notice a permanent fuel smell. I always let the injectors
be flow tested before I install them or even sell them to a customer.
So the very first things I'd do is :
- - check amount of oil in the
y-pipe
- - check for gas smell at the engine and after shutting it down by
opening
the oil cap
- - check the front spark plugs for condition and
difference to each other.
- - checking the rear ones too would help more of
course
- - measure O2 on both banks (install a switch for the two
wires)
then :
- - set the AFC that way that you see 0.92 - 0.94 V max at WOT up
to 4500 rpm
(the 3rd gear test you do is perfect)
- - install a FPR
testwise. i.e., the dealer has an adapter to be installed
in between the
fuel feeding line and the fuel rail.
- - test the FPR with a pressure pump at
idle. Increase pressure to the FPR
should increase FP too.
if everything is ok :
- - go back to the stock injectors and flat
setting of the AFC
Often the last thing is what helps most as then the problem area can easily
be found. If your fuel system is stock, no fuel relay bypass and AFC
disabled or just flat, everything must just be fine up to 14 psi of boost.
I personally would do this now just to make sure it's not the fuel system.
Swapping the injectors out isn't a big deal, just make sure you use new
O-rings.
Let us know how it goes
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 03:37:55 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
> This has nothing to do with this case as he's not running out of
fuel.
> Again he speaks of good O2 values what indicates that there is no
lean
> situation.
Roger, you should know better than this... Just 'cause o2 values
appear
good, doesn't mean anything....
For instance, low boost (17 psi), pump gas, and full throttle, I
can
have knock, .94 on a brand new o2 sensor, and still have knock...
adjust
fuel 1% more on the S-AFC, and entirely get rid of it.
Just cause o2 appears good does not mean the car is not running lean.
Personally, regarding the original circumstance, I would definitely
test
fuel pressure, and if that checks out, keep adding fuel until it
goes
away. If it doesn't by the time you get back to 0%, then something
else
is wrong...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:43:24 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
At 03:37 02.09.2003 -0500, cody wrote:
> > This has nothing to do
with this case as he's not running out of fuel.
> > Again he speaks of
good O2 values what indicates that there is no lean
> >
situation.
>
>Roger, you should know better than this... Just
'cause o2 values appear
>good, doesn't mean anything....
Yes, I know the stuff pretty well !
>For instance, low boost (17 psi), pump gas, and full throttle, I
can
>have knock, .94 on a brand new o2 sensor, and still have knock...
adjust
>fuel 1% more on the S-AFC, and entirely get rid of it.
The 1 % more may not be seen show a higher voltage on the A/F monitor. It's
a good "ballpark" for tuning, but of course only with a wideband
perfectly.
>Just cause o2 appears good does not mean the car is not running
lean.
So how do you see if you are running rich or lean, huh ?
>Personally, regarding the original circumstance, I would definitely
test
>fuel pressure, and if that checks out, keep adding fuel until it
goes
>away.
This is not the best way, just dumping fuel in ... not good at all ! You
can flood the engine and still having knock. Knock must NOT BE RELATED to a
lean condition. Leaning out the mixture as well as running rich can be
causes for knock.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:10:11 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Um, I never use o2 to tune.... I watch it on the datalogger to
make
sure it's a nice solid line close to the top, the top being 1.00
volts,
but o2 is sooo far off without using a wideband o2.
Personally, I tune by knock primarily and EGT second...
What I was trying to say was the the o2 sensor is sooo inaccurate
that
you cannot use it for tuning. I am actually very surprised you
are
actually wanting to tune via o2 values using a stock o2 sensor.
You can determine if you are running lean via the knock sensor...
It's
worked for me, and most everyone I know for tuning. In a couple
weeks
we are finally getting an AWD dyno close, but up until now, our AWD
cars
have been to the track and the highways for tuning...
In fact, there is a Team3S FAQ on my exact method for tuning
via
datalogger / knock sensor / using the S-AFC. I suggest you read it
and
give me your opinion. Not once do we look at o2 voltage.
- -Cody
------------------------------
Two possibilities come to mind. Open the hatchback and look at the
weatherstripping gasket attached to the hatch. Look in the drain channel
on that side and see if leaves and debris have plugged up the drain. I'm
guessing this is most likely.
Second, open the passenger side door and look at the weatherstripping
attached to the car. Also check the drain channels forward of the door in
the front quarter panel(?)to see if that route for drainage is also
blocked.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:16:11 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
>> In fact, there is a Team3S FAQ on my exact method for tuning
via
>> datalogger / knock sensor / using the S-AFC.
>> I suggest you read it and give me your opinion.
OK.
It contains some very dangerous errors that could lead the reader to
destroying their engine.
===========
Examples:
"8 counts of knock (or more) and the ECU
retards timing"
"5) If there is no timing getting pulled and you have a nice long steady
increase in timing you are running too rich. Lean it out across the board using
good judgment. I take steps of 3% when leaning things out."
===========
Not true all the time! Look at a picture of a section of a recent datalog
from my car (15.5 psi boost to redline with 15Gs, fuel mods, yada, yada) at the
url below.
Observe that knock counts are hitting the upper 20's and yet timing is not
pulled! In fact, it advances from ~25º to ~30º BTDC all the while knock is over
26 counts and rear O2 volts are "only" 0.94. BTW, after this run I richened the
ARC2 High and knock reduced to under 20 counts but did not go away. In fact, in
the second run the timing did drop briefly (~0.1 s) from 29 to 26 when knock
went from 14 to 20. Timing advanced until that point. However, when knock
continued at 20, timing began increasing again to 29.
I have decided to avoid the inefficient and sometimes dangerous "drown the
cylinders to quell knock" routine and use water injection instead, which has not
been installed yet.
It is very dangerous for owners, especially 1994+ model owners who cannot
log knock, to *always* assume that because timing is not being pulled there is
no knock.
I could continue, but I have grown tired of pointing out the errors at so
many of Team3S's web pages and yet never seeing any corrections.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:31:40 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
That's not an error - you read it wrong or it was written wrong
(I
didn't do the final edit)... If no timing is getting pulled, and
no
knock is present, then try leaning things out. It is generally
true
more than 8 knock counts and the ECU retards timing, though
sometimes,
our ECU doesn't follow the norm.
What I can't figure out is how no 3/S cars out there run more than
15-16
psi boost on pump gas. With good ole 93 octane, I can
consistently run
22 psi in my Talon. Maybe I'm a little more
"Dangerous" with my setup,
but a good friend has been running 22 psi on the
street for over a year
on stock block on his DSM, with no problems...
BTW, my tuning methods, as somewhat outlined in that FAQ, are
proven
amongst the DSM crowd. Don't just think we are making all kinds
of
boost and going nowhere. 11.9's at 117 mph on pump gas with that
same
tuning (the above mentioned car)
I wholly agree that users without the ability to log knock are in a
sad
situation, that's why I specifically did not buy a car like that.
It
does appear you agree with my original statement that o2 is not
directly
related to knock.
15.5 psi, and knock - 93 octane gas I assume? Stock ic's?
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:33:33 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Oh, and good lord, adjust your TPS... That can be causing an issue
as
well...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:23:58 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
>> Oh, and good lord, adjust your TPS...
>> That can
be causing an issue as well...
Nonsense!
The TPS is working correctly. It reads less than 1 v when closed and
greater than 4.5 v when wide open. Read the service and tech manuals to see how
the ECU uses the TPS signal. I have verified that the throttle plate is both
closed and wide open at the appropriate pedal positions.
The "percent" displayed by any datalogger only shows the voltage divided by
5.0 volts. Not particularly useful information. Neither 0% nor 100% is even
required by the ECU, nor does it ever look for such a thing.
For S-AFC owners, the throttle position percentage is almost worthless as
it has little useful relationship to voltage (which is what the ECU needs) and
only to the user having the pedal all the way up or down (for ~10 seconds in
self-learn mode). The TPS could be out of spec and the S-AFC would not have
clue!
In the case of my datalog (the gif image of it), I did not quite have the
throttle plate all the way open because it usually reads 0.47 v closed (9%) and
4.75 v open (95%). Both of these values tell the ECU what it wants to know
(either less than 1 v for idle or greater than 4.5 v for WOT). Our ECU does not
use throttle position to determine air flow or fuel injector activation time
except for some failsafe modes. I am not sure if intermediate TPS voltage is
used for open vs closed loop switchover.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:57:17 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Cody, your post don't make any sense. The TPS doesn't cause any issue
at
all. The small range the TPS can be adjusted (around 0.2V) is simply
for
sensible elements like the ARC2 and has nothing to do with any
strange
behaviour. The ECU compensates for that. If an AFC is used the idle
voltage
for a closed throttle is set. Adjusting the TPS is not necessary and
leads
to the wrong solution !
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:59:25 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
It's only important for the ARC2 as it only recognizes a closed TB when
it
sees less than 0.5 Volts.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:17:41 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
Cody, it seems that you know only little about the 3S engines so be
careful
what you are mirroring from the 4 bangers world - it simply doesn't
apply on
our cars 6 cylinders.
Retarding the timing is related to load and rpm as well as the fuel map
the
ECU is currently on. And no, it's generally false if you say that the
ECU
retards the timing after "8 knock counts". Barometric pressure, air
intake
temperature, load and rpm area plays an important rule too. There is
NO
NORM, each engine type is different. Especially if you see that a V6 is
not
comparable to a little inline 4.
As you run pump gas on the DSM you seem not to want the most out of
your
engine. Octane is power and safety. Also running 22 psi is no problem on
a
Renault 5 Turbo, our engines are designed different. With larger turbos
that
run on a better efficency field (you know why ?) better intercooling
and
safe fuel system, 22 psi isn't a problem on our cars too. If you have a
3S
car then do the mods and check out the ability of the engine.
Again, your FAQ may proven by the DMS crowed but we all know that the most
4
banger methods do not work on the 3S cars. So be careful how and what
you
write. Do not explain the settings in general, be specific and point out
the
danger zones to prefent learners from damaging their expensive
cars.
I saw many cars with knock at 0.8 bars, no tuned engine just a plain
stock
engine. So your assumptions are pretty way off. Let's find the problem
the
professional way. BTW, you'll never buy another car as no OBDII car
has
knock sensor readout over the diagnose port :-( I myself would liek to
see a
kncok readout on todays car, as this would make tuning easier.
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: JuQuEl <
juquel@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Need
Help w/ Removing Door Panel
I am having a problem w/ the window on the driver's
side. The
window will not go up or down, it seems the
window may be off the track, but
we can't get the door
panel off to look. We think we removed all
the
screws, including the ones underneath the carpet
cover, around 8 in
all, but the panel still will not
come off.
How does the door panel come off? Do we need to pull
it up &
then out, or is there another trick to it? It
seems to be stuck
somewhere in the middle, like where
the handle is to open & lock the
door, or the handle
to pull the door shut. Perhaps there's a screw
hiding
in there?
If anyone can give me some advice, I'd really
appreciate it!!!
Also, if anyone knows where to get a
good deal on the motor for the power
window on the
driver side, let me know.
Thanks!
LouAnn
'93 VR-4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:45:08 -0400
From: "Joseph Spainhour" <
spainhou@bellsouth.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Need Help w/ Removing Door Panel
There is a hook right around the inside handle. You need to slightly lift
up
and pull forward to remove the panel. Make sure you take off the cover
that
is behind the latch handle also.
Joseph
93 3KGT VR-4
- -----Original Message-----
From: JuQuEl
Sent: Tuesday, September
02, 2003 6:40 PM
Subject: Team3S: Need Help w/ Removing Door Panel
I am having a problem w/ the window on the driver's
side. The
window will not go up or down, it seems the
window may be off the track, but
we can't get the door
panel off to look. We think we removed all
the
screws, including the ones underneath the carpet
cover, around 8 in
all, but the panel still will not
come off.
How does the door panel come off? Do we need to pull
it up &
then out, or is there another trick to it? It
seems to be stuck
somewhere in the middle, like where
the handle is to open & lock the
door, or the handle
to pull the door shut. Perhaps there's a screw
hiding
in there?
If anyone can give me some advice, I'd really
appreciate it!!!
Also, if anyone knows where to get a
good deal on the motor for the power
window on the
driver side, let me know.
Thanks!
LouAnn
'93 VR-4
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 02:09:22 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Need Help w/ Removing Door Panel
>> How does the door panel come off?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:46:58 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Low fuel pressure causing knock with boost?
I have a little news for you Roger, ever played with a DSM, then a
3000,
back to back? The ECU's act IDENTICAL. The motors are very
similar
too.
I only run pump gas because when I drive the thing on the street, I
want
the same power I make at the track. I will put some race gas in,
up the
boost to about 26 or 28 psi (2 psi at a time), and see what she
does
then... You say little inline 4, but they are the same
displacement per
cylinder. ECU retards timing due to lots of variables,
but all others
being equal, 8 (or is it 9) is the magic number where timing
is
retarded, and the ECU is trying to save the motor. You think I
don't
know that air flow per rpm, air intake temp, barometric pressure
don't
all have an effect??? Please...
In fact, all methods proven on a DSM I guarantee will hold true when
it
comes to tuning a 3/S car. The ECU's are almost identical, the
engine
design similar. Again, the important part, the ECU's react the
same to
certain inputs.
TPS does matter. If the ECU does not see full throttle, or WOT, it
will
not go into open loop mode, therefore trying to sense the o2 sensor,
and
not fully utilizing any maps you may have modified using a AFC
/
whatever.
There was something wrong with that car knocking at .8 bar. Plain
and
simple. Either that, or 3/S cars suffer from phantom knock as
well. In
fact, every once in a while I have this weird, unexplainable
problem, in
which I get knock BETWEEN shifts - sometimes it's there,
sometimes its
not, sometimes it holds through the gear, sometimes its just
for that
split second between shifts...
You could prolly learn a lot about the design of the ECU from the
DSM
boards, there is more tech info there than I've ever seen regarding
any
Mitsu ECU...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Does anybody know for sure what the right size speed bleeders are for a
92
3000GT SL? If I measured right its a SB7100, just looking
for
confirmation.
Thanks
Jim W
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#246
***************************************
