Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, August 19
2003 Volume 02 : Number 234
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:19:11 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: MAS MOD Expanded
Washing the oil off the cylinder isn't a problem unless you are
running
crazy-rich, and at the point where it gets to be a problem your car
will be
sputtering and misfiring anyways. A little on the rich side is
much safer
than a little on the lean side. 8-)
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:24:23 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: Team3S:
somewhat OT: hitting a 5k rpm redline on another twin turbo v6.
"i've gone WOT in 1st other times, but i could not reproduce
it.
basically...the car acts like it has a 5000rpm redline...fuel shuts
off
along with the expected lurch. well, the lurch feels harder
because
5000rpm is still under full boost"
My cousin's '00 s4 is having this problem. I figured there are
enough
similarities from a basic design standpoint that you guys may have
a
suggestion. He's running chipped (17-18 psi, which he tells me is
fine
for an s4 with stock fuel, which seems odd to me - they run 12
stock)
and a cat-back.
I told him it could be clogged injectors - my thinking being that
if
he's running close to their limit as it is, and they're clogged
then
maybe by the time he hits 5k, he leans out so much that the ecu
shuts
off fuel as a last ditch safety precaution. How far off am I?
Thanks
Alex
'95 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:15:46 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: somewhat OT: hitting a 5k rpm redline on another twin turbo
v6.
I've heard of other cars having a limited boost in 1st gear in order to
prevent wheel spin but never a limited RPM. Would it be to prevent an
over-rev?? Sounds weird. It is very likely that you are just hitting a fuel
cut. What does the company that chipped his ECU say about it?
Philip
------------------------------
My understanding is that the translator's ability to "tune" is only
in
5% increments and that you need something like a S-AFC which tunes
finer
(1%?) increments to get rid of the rich settings.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:28:50 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: somewhat OT: hitting a 5k rpm redline on another twin turbo v6.
Alex, I think you are hitting fuel cut not the rev limiter! Fuel cut
feels
like a big jolt, rev limiter cuts spark which just makes your engine
lose
power. Fuel cut occurs if your knock readings get over a certain level
or
more often if you air/fuel ratio goes off ECU's fuel map. This means
that
you have a boost leak somewhere, thus more air is getting sucked
through
your MAS and the ECU thinks that you are running insanely lean and
cuts fuel
to prevent meltdown. On the other hand, if don't have leaks, it may
be
possible that your boost controller or waste gates are not working and
you
really are sucking more air into the engine than it can handle. BE
CAREFUL!
Tyson
------------------------------
Anyone have a procedure for replacing motor mounts?
The front driver's side mount on my '93 VR4 is in pretty sorry shape.
It looks a lot like the one on my old Eclipse GSX. I was able to replace
that one by jacking up the engine to relieve pressure on it.
Is there an easy way to replace the front driver's side motor mount?
I guess there are four total, and the rear one can't be replaced without pulling
the engine.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
I recall seeing a fabulous sequence of instructions, complete with
photos,
on how to pull a transmission. Anybody know the link?
We'll be dropping my tranny this weekend.
Are there any special tools we'll need? Got plenty of sockets,
wrenches,
service manuals, and all that stuff, but do we need an impact
wrench,
compressed air, or anything else out of the ordinary?
How high should we try to get it up in the air? No lift...all we got
is
floor jacks and jack stands.
About 5 hours to drop it?
Rich/slow old poop/94 VR4 6-speed
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:47:40 -0500
From: "Canney, Charles C" <
charles.c.canney@lmco.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: somewhat OT: hitting a 5k rpm redline on another
twin turbo v6.
I am wondering if this could be happening to me at a much lower RPM
(@1700)
and not under boost?
How would I isolate it, (eliminate a possible waste gate open at the
wrong
time) disconnect/plug the was gate vacuum lines? Could this be done
safely
if I am just
creeping up on 1700 RPM?
Would the same be true of the BOV? Could it erroneously introduce too
much
air
down stream of the MAF and cause a fuel cutout?
This post, :"Team3S: Engine rev limited post rebuild, what to try
next?"
describes my problem. I am still in the troubleshooting/fault
isolation
mode, wishing I had a datalogger and fuel pressure gauge.
Thanks,
Charles Canney
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:54:48 -0500
From: "Canney, Charles C" <
charles.c.canney@lmco.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: procedure for changing motor mounts?
Chuck,
I had the heads off recently and think you could easily change
that rear
mount by removing the downpipe, O2 housing, and maybe turbo and
exhaust
manifold. It is a lot of work, but I don't think pulling the engine
is
necessary, but I am no expert.
I saw a post on the on 3si.org,
describing this in detail, may have been by
LRStealth.
For sure the Side
motor mount is accessible, read the T-belt replacement
proceed in the manual
for exact steps. If you don't have the manual, I can
send you the pages in
PDF.
Charles Canney
------------------------------
I have the service manuals and CD's. I was just being lazy. I
am at about 114K miles on the '93VR4 and am thinking maybe I can have it done
when I pay to have the 120K service done.
Chuck
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:20:54 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: procedure for changing motor mounts?
I don't think there is much difference, but I replaced the rear
motor
mount on my NT with just a few tools, and pulling nothing
off...
obviously for the turbo guys, it would be best to remove some IC
piping
and such, but still not a "pull the motor" job...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:29:31 -0700 (PDT)
From:
davis2005@canada.comSubject: Team3S:
Body Kits and pics
Hi Everyone. I was just wondering if anybody new any
websites to check
out body kits for stealths and if and
one has pictures of there cars with or
with out kits I
woulod love to see them.Thanks! 94 stealth rt tt
Jeff Davis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:46:12 -0400
From: "Nick Turner" <
chturne4@vt.edu>
Subject: Team3S: radio
wires
Hi everybody,
My front driver side speakers are coming in and out, and I'm pretty
sure
it's just a wiring problem. I don't know if it is just a loose
connection or
if the wiring has gone bad. Does anyone know which color or
which wire I
should be looking for under the dash/going into the car door?
It's kind of a
mess under there, all kinds of wires. Thanks for any
help,
I forgot to mention I'm driving a '93 GT, base model.
Nick
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:37:37 -0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: MAS MOD Expanded
Please report back with any summary information on this topic.
I have
wondered if technical considerations preclude the 'after turbo'
MAS location,
due to sensor limitations, etc.
If the MAS can be re-located, it might eliminate lag and allow
much
bigger intercoolers, and no need for a blow off valve.
It might
allow a system which always maintains a pressurized volume,
which would
essentially eliminate lag. It would also generally allow more
latent time in
the after turbo piping and intercooler, for better heat dissipation.
Skyrider
------------------------------
> If the MAS can be re-located, it might eliminate lag
> and allow
much bigger intercoolers, and no need for
> a blow off valve.
The stock MAF and/or stock MAF location have a minor effect on lag
time... If
you want to reduce lag, get smaller turbos or use some sort
of ECU-controlled
anti-lag device (stutterbox, clutch-cut, fuel-dumper,
etc.). Also, the
location of the MAS won't dictate what size you can
use for an intercooler.
Not using a BOV is counter-productive to your idea of reducing lag.
Without a
BOV, the turbos will spool down much more significantly during
shifts as the
turbos spin against intake pressure.
> It might allow a system which always maintains a
> pressurized
volume, which would essentially
> eliminate lag.
The pressurized volume is one of the primary factors contributing to
"lag".
The other primary factor is lag caused from being outside the
turbo's "surge
line" which you can find on a compressor flow map.
> It would also generally allow more latent time in
> the after
turbo piping and intercooler, for
> better heat dissipation.
Assuming you are already using high efficiency intercoolers, having the air
in
piping for a longer time will likely allow it to absorb more heat rather
than
dissipate heat since the underhood temps are probably higher than the
charge/ambient temp.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:22:04 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: MAS MOD Expanded
Lag is sooo overrated... Who races and worries about
lag??? The last
time I dropped below 4000 rpm and felt lag...
wait.. In a real race, it
never happens... Unless you have such huge
turbo(s) that you had to
increase redline to 8 or 9k, you will never feel lag
in a real race
situation...
Also, the only thing putting the MAS after the turbos / ic's will
get
you is the ability to run an open air BOV without any
other
electronics... Big deal...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:35:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Wert <
mrstealth13@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Lifters won't fill with oil
I started my engine yesturday for the first time after
rebuilding
it. Everything sounded and ran great.
However i get a loud noise from
my lifters, so i tried
running the engine to 3000 RPM's and then easing
it
back down, like the manual says. We continued this
process
several times running the engine for about 5
minutes then shutting it off and
letting it cool down.
The manual says the noise is not a big issue b'c
its
just from air in the lifters and that after doing that
process 2 or 3
times the noise will go away. The
noise has not gone away, so i pulled
off the front
valve cover and an inspected the lifters. I was
able
to push 4 of the lifters down. Are the lifters shot?
Or is
there something i can to get them to fill with
oil, like taking them out and
doing something
manually.
Thanks,
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:47:28 -0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: MAS MOD Expanded
Feedback below..I still think with the right setup having preboost
available cannot be anything but good. -kdz
- -----Original Message-----
From: cody [mailto:overclck@satx.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:22 AM
To:
mjannusch@comcast.net; Zobel, Kurt
D
Cc: 'Team 3S Email Distribution List'
Subject: RE: Team3S: MAS MOD
Expanded
Lag is sooo overrated... Who races and worries about
lag??? The last
time I dropped below 4000 rpm and felt lag...
wait.. In a real race, it
never happens... Unless you have such huge
turbo(s) that you had to
increase redline to 8 or 9k, you will never feel lag
in a real race
situation...
kdz- Lag overdone.. Granted, drag racing, you shouldn't get into lag
conditions. But road courses, yes, very often, not only lag to get to
'some' boost, but lag to get to 'full' boost. On the street, lag all
the
time.
Also, the only thing putting the MAS after the turbos / ic's will
get
you is the ability to run an open air BOV without any
other
electronics... Big deal...
- -Cody
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
mjannusch@comcast.net> Sent:
Tuesday, August 19, 2003 1:12 PM
> To: Zobel, Kurt D
> Cc: Team 3S
Email Distribution List
> Subject: RE: Team3S: MAS MOD Expanded
>
> > If the MAS can be re-located, it might eliminate lag
> >
and allow much bigger intercoolers, and no need for
> > a blow off
valve.
>
> The stock MAF and/or stock MAF location have a minor
effect on lag
> time... If you want to reduce lag, get smaller turbos or
use some sort of ECU-
> controlled anti-lag device (stutterbox,
clutch-cut, fuel-dumper,
> etc.).
kdz- That's the point. With a pre-boost chamber, you can have
huge
turbos with Zero lag. I envision an input loop from turbo out back to
turbo
inlet so turbos can free spool when off throttle. A control valve would
close
the loop and open the intercooler path. Off throttle would use
the turbo
overrun to pressurize, and perhaps get off throttle air from
before
turbo.
This would be fine if the MAS can adjust quickly to lower
pressure and
air temps.
When throttle is again required, the preboosted path is opened
for
intake, but the turbo output opening is delayed until turbo boost is
within x psi of
intercooler psi. The pre-boost input plus the zero back
pressure spoolup would likely
eliminate all sense of lag, on any turbo.
> Also, the location of the MAS won't dictate what size you can use for
an intercooler.
kdz- Correct, except that large easy flow intercoolers would be an
asset rather than a hinderance.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:35:19 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Lifters won't fill with oil
Did you prime the lifters before you installed them? If not, you need
to place them in a can of diesel fuel, and pump them up and down manually until
all of the air bleeds out of them. Then they are ok to install. If
they remain easy to pump up and down, the they're shot.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:37:19 +0000
From:
mjannusch@comcast.netSubject: RE:
Team3S: Ideas on reducing lag
> kdz- That's the point. With a pre-boost chamber, you
> can have
huge turbos with Zero lag. I envision an input
> loop from turbo out back
to turbo inlet so turbos can
> free spool when off throttle. A control
valve would close
> the loop and open the intercooler path. Off
throttle
> would use the turbo overrun to pressurize, and perhaps
>
get off throttle air from before turbo.
Your "input loop" describes to some extent the stock induction
system. When
the BOV is open, air from the turbos is recirculated to
their intake sides to
allow them to free-spool. They still slow down
significantly as there is less
exhaust going through the turbine side when
off throttle which produces drag
on the turbine, as well as the drag of
stock system pumping the air through
the intercoolers and the associated
piping.
The turbo "overrun" is nowhere near sufficient enough to pressurize any
large
volume of air to help in this situation. As soon as you start
pressurizing
wherever you want to store the boost, it is working against the
turbo and the
turbo doesn't have spool energy from the exhaust anymore to
help it fight
against backpressure.
There's another problem where when you release the pressure into the intake
then the turbos will have to overcome whatever pressure there is in the
intake
as well in order to spool up which may be more counterproductive than
the "pre-
boost" is effective.
> This would be fine if the MAS can adjust quickly to
> lower
pressure and air temps.
At that point you should really be using a speed-density system based off
manifold pressure and manifold air temperature instead of a blow-through
mass
airflow sensor.
I dunno, I think this idea is adding more complexity to a system that's
already complex enough on these cars.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:07:50 -0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Ideas on reducing lag
I just hate to waste all that spool up effort!
Build up boost, throw it away, build up boost, throw it away.
..and that
Viper isn't getting' any closer while I'm doing that!
Skyrider
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:44:31 -0500
From: "Canney, Charles C" <
charles.c.canney@lmco.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Lifters won't fill with oil
Andrew,
I am just passing along hearsay, but my source(my machinist)
said there was
a service bulletin that recommended cycling between idle and
1500 RPM when
breaking in "new" lifters. He also said that it could take up
to 15 minutes
of operation to get everything quite (all air purged). I was
quite alarmed
at the noise when I started my (partially) rebuilt engine, and
I had made a
weak attempt at pre-filling the lifter with diesel (did not soak
them
overnight). You might want give the lifters a little more time
before
getting too concerned.
Good luck,
Charles
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:57:37 -0500
From: tigertrentham <
tigertrentham@4state.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Replacing plugs, and Security system Ghost
I am replacing plugs, seems like about 0.070 inch gap drops my mileage
25 %, and I am suprised the thing still runs at all with that big a
gap. I have never worked on this car, it is ten years old, bought new,
and driven daily, 155, 000 miles, no serious problems, changed plugs
once before, use Mobil 1, replaced power antenna, and replaced that
splined shaft that seems to wear out. I got some old cars to work on,
and this one mystifies me with all the electronics, so I have stayed
away from it.
Couple of years ago, the Dealer wanted $3500 to replace tranny when the
splined shaft went. I got on the net, found the part, paid for it and
got my buddy who does trannys to fix it, all for about $500. So, now I
need to change plugs again, probably let new dealer do that, they are
desperate for buisness, and have treated me well. What else should
they do while that is being done, rather a lot of work for changing
plugs, but that is the way the thing is packaged under the hood.
By the way, If I lock the car, key or key fob radio transmitter, the
security system goes off in about 20 minutes. Dealer is stumped, and I
can't find much on it in the two dodge "Factory manual" books I bought
(Big disappointment)
I have a thing about factory manuals, they will often drive you
nuts.
I wrote a couple of dozen articles (for E-Jag, and Jaguar Marque
magazines,) about twenty years ago all about fixing Jaguar XKE's, based
on sorting out their Factory Manual. And it was a pretty good manual
compared to many. But I am getting too old for lying under cars and
alternatively laughing my butt off or swearing. And an E Type Jag is a
piece of cake to fix compared to a Stealth /GT.
Ken Stanton was upset with me because I made the joke about the
kindergartners voting on the sex of the kitten as a preamble to my
wordy
treatise on detonation and pre-ignition, and post ignition. Well,
Ken, here
is your chance for Sweet Revenge. Show everybody what a
dunce I am by
explaining what is causing my Stealth security system to
go off for no
apparent reason.
So, if not Ken, who can exorcise the "Ghost" in my security system?
Plain Old Poop from Neosho, (Not the Rich Old Poop from Cedar Rapids)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:15:39 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Turbo Lag WAS: MAS MOD Expanded
> Lag is sooo overrated... Who races and worries about
lag???
> The last time I dropped below 4000 rpm and felt lag...
wait..
> In a real race, it never happens...
For drag racing and most road courses, I'd agree, but...
lag is definitely a factor in autocross, or at least it is for me.
Often on hairpin turnarounds, I'm down to 25mph (2500RPM) and it's not
convenient to shift to 1st. I don't have harnesses yet, so I'm often using
my left foot to brace myself and operating the clutch with finesse is not
possible for me. Thus I'm stuck using 2nd all the way around and then
flooring it on the way out. If I had instant spool, I'd probably pick up
.25-.50 seconds on each turnaround.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:15:40 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Replacing plugs, and Security system Ghost
You trying to start something? I was simply saying that it sounded
cocky to
talk like that on your first post - just bring some respect.
And yes, I may have a good solution for the alarm problem. Check the
door
jam sensors - a bad connection will set the alarm off randomly with
wind,
vibration, or alignment of the planets. Pull the boot off,
unscrew the
phillips screw, and pull the switch. Inspect for rust,
loose contacts, and
the like. You should also put some white lithium on
there (like on battery
terminals) to aide the connection. If thats not
it, the hood and trunk
sensors are second in line for problems. At 155k
miles, rust surely can be
a factor.
Good luck,
Ken Stanton
MSEE, Virginia Tech
Automotive Control
Systems
4yr Team3S / 3Si veteran
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:05:04 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Procedure for dropping trans?
Jeff Lucius's site has it (like just about anything else)
Alex.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:25:28 -0700
From: "Pete" <
pbozanich@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: motor still shuts off
Last week I wrote about the motor shutting off on my car. I took it to
the
local dealer and they haven't been able to figure it out. Ive replaced
the
coil pack, power transistor, and a brand new ECU. We found a
leaking
capacitor in the original one. I had them order me a new one and I
would fix
the original later. Also I replaced the fuel filter. Well the car
still does
the same thing. It will shut off as if you turned it off. It will
start up
again but something is deffinetly wrong. And its getting expensive
replacing
all of these parts. If any body has any sugestions it would be
greatly
appreciated.
Thanks,
Pete, 91VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:30:10 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Replacing plugs, and Security system Ghost
I hope to hell you've at least done the 120K service --- 155 thou on a
stock timing belt sounds like a recipe for disaster. As to the alarm one of
the most common causes is the switch under the bonnet, passenger
side
front. Several people have solved the problem by lifting up on the
bracket
that holds the security switch --- you could probably test it by
lifting up
on the edge of the hood and see if it goes off.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:18:16 -0500
From: "Canney, Charles C" <
charles.c.canney@lmco.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: motor still shuts off
Pete,
I am new and unable to find your post from last week. What were
the symptoms
when the car quite running, what were you doing at the time,
rough road,
smooth road, happens cold or hot,
does it go dead all at once
or misfire before dying, on re-start, do you
have to crank it a while (how
long) or does it instantly light off, after a
cool down period or just
random?
A few ideas.
I don't have any expertise in keeping mine running, but if
your problem is
totally random, I would start visually inspecting the wiring
from ECU to
power source, looking for chaffing, reseating all connectors.
Same for power
from the battery, my car has a thick (10 gauge or so) wire
tied to the
positive batter terminal, check it from end to end for visible
damage, and
continuity while wiggling it around. Check the ground wires under
the hood,
just behind the battery (split cable from battery negative post)
and a
braided wire from the firewall, just left of the brake booster, the
plenum
stay bolt on the backside of the plenum. Also, if it ever cranks but
won't
start, having a $10 radio shack volt meter already tied to the power
input
of the ECU would be handy to have.
How much did you pay for your new ECU?
If someone could tell me how to find an old post(I tried search and
archives
but no luck), I would appreciate it.
\
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:08:01 -0400
From: "The Furmans" <
L.Furman1@cox.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Ideas on reducing lag
Only problem is that your turbo life is going to be much shorter
without
a BOV/BPV, there is a reason every MAJOR TUNER uses them and
its called
compressor surge which in a large enough dose can be fatal
to a turbo (been
there done that, got the t-shirt and bloody knuckles
from the turbo
swap)
My .02
Russ F
CT
93 VR-4 DR-650's and supporting mods (2 weeks till turn
key, WOOOHAAA)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:31:16 -0700 (PDT)
From:
davis2005@canada.comSubject: Team3S:
Body Kits and Pictures
Hi Everyone! I was wondering if anybody knew of any web
sites that offer
body kits for stealths. I have a 94 rt
tt. Also if anybody has any pics of
stealths with body
kits or would just like to send me a pic of their car
I
would be happy to see them. Thanks
Jeff Davis "cntseeme"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:04:49 -0700 (PDT)
From:
dark@non-corporeal.netSubject: Re:
Team3S: Body Kits and Pictures
There are far too many toys running around here... I think I need another
job.
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#234
***************************************