Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, August 12
2003 Volume 02 : Number 227
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:56:26 -0600
From: "Chuck Norris" <
chuck@cnorris.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: New engine noise
I had the same thing a few months back, intermittent fast clicking.
I
chased it down to the AC compressor clutch, which had a bolt or two
broken
off. Would click whether AC was on or off. Replaced it, been fine
since.
Chuck
94 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:14:19 -0400
From:
Songsay@cs.comSubject: Team3S: a/f
guage
Has anyone installed an air/fuel guage on a first gen vr4 before? I know
that the
first gen ones had two oxygen sensors whereas the
second gen had four oxygen
sensors. If anyone with a first gen
has put one in, or if anyone has put one in at
all i would like
some info to as which wire on which oxygen sensor to tap into.
songsay 92 vr4
------------------------------
None.
Use a properly designed wide-band A/F guage if you expect reliable
and
tunable results.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:06:12 -0700
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Need a new engine, I think. :(
I'll just give the short version, 'cause I've got a million things to do at
work.
I was doing a little tuning last night at around midnight. I'd just
finished tweaking the fuel curve on the AEM a little bit, and the car felt good
so I did a full throttle pull. The air fuel ratio was looking good, intake temps
were cold, and there wasn't even a hint of knock. Then around 4500 I heard a
loud BANG! followed by what sounded like metal parts falling on the road under
the car. I immediately got off the throttle and let the engine die.
There
was a fair amount of smoke coming from under the hood. I walked back on the road
to look for metal bits, but I didn't see any. I'm guessing the sound I heard was
metal bits bouncing around in the oil pan. I didn't feel like walking a mile
home to call a tow truck, so I decided to try to start the car. To my surprise,
it started right up...but sounded TERRIBLE! A very loud banging increasing with
engine speed...I'm guessing it's rod knock. The car drove fine as well - didn't
even feel like it was significantly down on power.
I got it home, jacked it
up, and looked around. The first thing I noticed was that oil was sprayed all
over the place on the rear of the engine and exhaust, and was continuing to drip
on the driveway. That's where the smoke was coming from - oil burning off the
exhaust manifold, I think. I looked all over the place, but I couldn't find the
source of the oil. The oil pan looked okay, but after I couldn't find anyplace
else I felt the back of the oil pan with my hand. I'm pretty sure I felt a
dime-sized rip in the back side of the pan. :(
I'll know more in a couple of
days when I have some time to tear things apart and look around. At this point,
I don't have real high hopes for the bottom end - I just hope the heads are
okay! Now I've got to decide between a rebuild and a fresh shortblock.
Good
times. :-)
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:41:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: William Crabtree
<
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Need a new engine, I think. :(
Brian,
I have a similar situation, but markedly less
severe. Our end will be the same though. You are likely hearing rod
knock. The metal sound you heard is/was, likely the bearings impacting and
rattling around in the pan. I had a massive thrust bearing failure and my
crank scored up my block and crank saddle so badly that they will have to be
replaced. If your rods and pisons are fine, I'd reccomend looking for a
good machine shop in your area. I've got a guy here in STL (
www.stlouisengines.com ) that is going
to find me a crank, block, and crank saddle. The good news is, this block
is one of the most used blocks by the mitsu and chrysler corp for
years(translation: plenty of them in salvage yards). He is going to
machine them for me and assemble the motor for me with my existing pisons and
connecting rods(which are fine). He hasn't given me a definite price yet,
but he claims this will be dramatically cheaper than the $2300 or so for a
new/rebuilt shortblock. I a!
m going to talk to him about cryro
treating my new crank and using clevite bearings.
- -Jeff Crabtree
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:45:22 -0400
From: "Ken Lovell" <
wklovell@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S:
60K Service
Its time for me to undertake the 60K service and based on discussions
on
the list I'm curious for recommendations on how much to replace.
I
don't have the time or the tools to do it right, so I'm planning to
take
it to Tallahassee Mitsubishi.
I believe that the service calls for the replacement of:
- - Timing Belt
- - Tensioner
- - Water Pump
- - Thermostat
- - Power Steering Belt
- - Accessory (A/C) Belt
- - Fuel Filter
- - Throttle Body Gasket
- - Intake Plenum Gasket
- - Spark Plug
Wires
In addition, I have seen reference to replacing the components below.
- - Water Pump
- - oil pump
Are these worth doing and is there anything else I should do at the
same
time?
Thanks,
Ken
'97 VR4
------------------------------
In addition..you already mentioned water pump. ;)
Water..yes, because 99% of the work required to fix it the week after
the
Tbelt job is done to replace the Tbelt itself.
Oil pump..no way..I wouldnt call that a required or even moderately
anal
service on any car (except LT1 chevys)
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Two more parts for sure (maybe others):
MD140071 PULLEY, TIMING BELT
TENSIONER
MD319022 PULLEY, TIMING BELT IDLER
MD140071 ADJUSTER, TIMING BELT TENSIONER (This may be what you listed
as
Tensioner)
A bad water pump killed my motor, I would definitely replace it. The
oil
pump might wait till 120K, if it was my money :-)
Check the numbers before ordering, they may be superceded since the
version
of CAPS I pulled them from.
Chas
------------------------------
Geoff,
You said:
"None.
Use a properly designed wide-band A/F
guage if you expect reliable and
tunable results."
Do have experience with a particular gauge/sensor setup that you
would
recommend? And how (and where) would it be installed, on the
engine exhaust
(cutting, welding, clamping, etc)?
Thanks,
Charles Canney
------------------------------
Well, I have my car back - the only reason they got it a second time is
because if they messed it up they are liable. I took it on this one. They
had it three weeks and I even had to find and buy parts to fix it.
I am calling Vicman Ng in pinole like you guys said. I am worn out by
this. I just want to fix it up and install some mods. But it seems like I
am at the beginning of the train. Getting it but not giving any.
Retch.
Avoid Vacaville Dodge like the plague. Incompetence. Complete and
utter.
Now the car has a stutter or put put crunch when I wot then release that
it did not do before. The car still has hesitation and once this tank is
empty I'll see if they managed to correct the 25% fuel drop problem. And
now the clutch feels alot harder to push (which they shouldn't have been
messing with if they did) - isn't that indicative of something...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:24:23 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
RE: a/f guage
Do a search of the archives ---- FJO makes one [ I have one, not installed
yet ] but
they are pricey, 500 or 600. There was also a kit, DIY wideband,
that looked
promising but I'm not sure if anyone tried the setup. The kit
was cheap $20 or $30
but the wideband O2 was $150 or so.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:45:05 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE: a/f guage
To actually answer the original question:
Yellow = O2 +
Green = O2 ground
Black = Heater +12V
Black = Heater
ground
I don't tap any of these. See my web page below.
I might suggest owners still using the *factory ECU* have little use for a
wideband lambda sensor. The factory O2 sensors provide quite satisfactory
warning properties when monitored (both sensors, the ones before the precats).
For tuning, what us with air flow signal conditioners (ARC2, VPC, S-AFC, AFR,
MAF-T) need to know is
1) when is the ECU in closed-loop mode (signal is cycling), and
2) when
is the ECU in open-loop mode.
For power tuning, knock usually guides us much more so than the actual A/F.
I mean who cares what the actual A/F really is? If you get knock then either
richen the A/F (the O2 voltage goes higher) or reduce boost or add water/alcohol
injection (or some other method to cool the intake charge) or some combination
of these.
For fuel economy tuning, we need to know when the ECU is closed-loop mode
and strive to keep it there when idling and low-load cruising.
------------------------------
Of course..requiring a proper A/F guage is only a minor cost when
you
consider that even needing one..you already had to splurge for an AFC
(or
somesuch), larger injectors, a larger fuel pump..possible an AFPR and
FP
guage, an EGT guage....
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:18:48 -0700
From: Billy Nickerson <
banickers@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Oil to eliminate "lifter tick"?
In my quest to finally take care of all the things I've neglected to do
on
my '94 Stealth, I am at the infamous "lifter tick" stage. Anyone got
a
recommendation for oil that will eliminate this once and for all?
It's
driven in Northern California, so no snow, but winter temperatures still
in
the 30s and 40s.
...Billy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:39:18 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Need a new engine, I think. :(
Rebuild! Get some forged pistons, and if you're looking to keep
cost
down, have everything else reused that can be (sounds like ya threw
a
rod), and you should be under the $2500 cost for a shortblock, and
have
upgrades to boot...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:52:28 -0400
From: James Matherly <
jemather@umich.edu>
Subject: Team3S:
Possibly wasted main bearing?
Ok, so I already mentioned the horrible clicking sound earlier today.
Well, it got worse. A lot worse. As I pulled in to my buddy's
house,
they were standing in the driveway joking that the sound was my car,
thinking that there was no way. Oh yeah, it was me. An
engine-drowning knocking, a knock severe enough I could feel it through
the clutch pedal, as well as the rest f the car.
My buddy Adam's first
guest: wasted rod. So we start checking
compression. All 6 check
out fine. So now we're stumped. To
reiterate, the problem is a
horrible knocking sound, directly related
to engine rpms, that becomes worse
and worse above 800rpms. The
knocking sound did not go away when we
pulled plugs on individual
cylinders, but only got softer. And when
the engine was cranked over
with no plugs, there was no knocking
sound. These factors combined to
make Adam and I believe that source
of the problem is a bad main
bearing. That said, I don't really know,
and granted that problems
like this are hard to diagnose through
email. Some other important
stats: 137k mi, oil switched to Mobil 1
about 200mi (3 days) ago,
problem started yesterday evening and has gotten
steadily worse
throughout the course of the day. Car is now parked and
won't be
moving until I've got an idea of what I' dealing with.
Thanks guys.
Ted Matherly
jemather@umich.edu'92 Stealth TT
(wasted main bearing?)
'91 Eclipse GSX (wasted exhaust valves...)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:21:47 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
60K Service
You listed the water pump in both your lists, so I'll re-iterate:
the
work required in replacing the pump is identical to replacing the
timing
belt, so to do it at the same time means you won't pay for the
labor
again down the line. Also, if it leaks, it will destroy the timing
belt
in short order, so every 60k is a good time to replace it.
Oil pump is usually reserved for 120k at which point you should
probably
also replace the timing belt idler pulley. I'd also replace the
spark
plugs themselves.
Alex
'95 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:23:04 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: 60K Service
water pump is a definite yes.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:56:44 -0400
From: Lesperance LCpl Thomas J
<
LesperanceTJ@2MAWBFT.usmc.mil>
Subject:
Team3S: Timing fixed but my wallets a little sore
Well ladies and gentleman, after much effort, many checks, and a
few
paychecks, driven forward with much effort by all the members of team 3s;
my
car is finally fixed. I'd like to thank everyone who lended their
expertise
in helping me locate my lack of spark and ignition. I've narrowed
it down to
a pinhead mechanic that didn't know how to change a water pump on
my car,
cams that were out of whack, and a bad crank angle sensor (busted by
the
pinhead mechanic). After many hours of scratching my head and
testing
everything, and about $1046 in repairs and testing, my N/A '96 3000gt
runs
like it did the first day I started her. Now I just have to go
through the
legalities of sueing the mechanic for nearly busting my valves,
giving me a
really bad headache, and angering me something much fiercer than
he already
has. However, thank you team 3s for your all your help and
pointing me in
the proper direction to locate the problem. I'm proud to be a
member of such
a useful organization. It ranks up there alongside of how
proud I am to be a
US Marine. I'm sure I'll be around here much longer.
However, it's time to
start my next project of fixing the peeling on my
lights, and giving her a
tune up. I've already bought the kit and downloaded
the FAQs for reference.
Thanks again everyone.
Tom
'96 3000gt
N/A
'79 5.0L mustang
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:00:42 -0400
From: Wayne Bonnett <
wayne@wbwebsol.com>
Subject: Team3S:
FS: Wheels - 17x10 CCW's
I have 4 17x10 CCW wheels for sale with 4 almost new (1 autocross event
with 5 runs) Kumho Victoracers size 275/40-17. They will fit any year/any
model 3S vehicle.
Reason for selling: Purchased new Evo and I don't like the way they
fit it.
Price was $2000 plus shipping, NOW asking $1600 plus shipping. Can
deliver within 100 miles of Louisville KY.
Please e-mail me privately to this e-mail address so we do not clutter up
the list.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:38:49 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Possibly wasted main bearing?
A compression check won't tell you anything about a bad rod bearing.
The fact that the noise softened when you pulled a plug indicates it's
a
rod bearing at that location --- you'll have to pull the pan and bearing
caps
to see. It could be a main bearing but the most likely is a rod.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:40:56 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: RE: a/f guage
> For power tuning, knock usually guides us much more so than
>
the actual A/F. I mean who cares what the actual A/F really
> is?
But for those of us with '94+ cars and factory ECUs, we don't get to look
at knock :( Or at least last time I checked, we didn't. Thus A/Fs,
EGTs, our ears, and others' experience are all we have to go on.
I'm going to be testing a wideband setup in the near future (probably next
week) on my VR-4. This product looks really promising. One of my
friends beta-tested it, so I've had a bit of a preview. And I get to
borrow his unit in a few days to play with it :-)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:53:01 -0700
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Need a new engine, I think. :(
I was going to rebuild with forged pistons and rods at first, but then I
started looking around for people that had taken the same route. A
majority of people that I talked to that had done rebuilds had spun a bearing or
had some other failure within about 10k miles. Tolerances are so tight,
and a rebuild takes so much attention to details that I'm really concerned that
Joe Machinist might miss something.
I'm leaning towards a new factory shortblock, because I know those last
longer (mine was at 104K). What I find when I tear into the engine will
probably influence my decision as well - if a bearing failed, then the factory
shortblock becomes more attractive. But if I bent a rod or grenaded a
piston, then forged parts start to sound a little better...
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:22:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jim Floyd <
jim_floyd7@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: a/f guage - knock ?
How do EGT's indicate knock ?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:26:30 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: a/f guage - knock ?
Higher EGTs = greater likelihood of knock
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:29:25 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: a/f guage - knock ?
Keep in mind very low EGTs can also indicate knock caused by a too
rich
condition.... That's one of the bitches of tuning based
solely on EGT's
and A/F, of course if you know how to read a dyno graph then
you can spot
knock on the chart and tweak accordingly
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:32:48 -0700
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: a/f guage - knock ?
This isn't necessarily true. Advanced timing - which I'm sure we all
agree makes knock more likely! - will actually LOWER EGTs. Advanced timing
creates more power by transferring more combustion energy to the crank, and thus
less energy is lost out the exhaust in the form of heat.
Now, if you keep timing advance constant, a lower EGT will generally
signify a richer, cooler mixture, which will be less knock prone.
EGT's aren't a magic number - you need to look at them in the context of
lots of other data in order to make informed judgements about engine
health. :)
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:46:29 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: a/f guage - knock ?
I agree that my response isn't always true, especially where conditions
exist which may, in and of themselves, cause pre-detonation, like advanced
timing (although I'm not sure I understand your reasoning behind why EGTs may be
lower in advanced timing conditions. I understand the concept, but I'm not
sure lower EGTs are a result of the power transfer you discuss). To
clarify, generally speaking, if EGTs spike high, chances are combustion chamber
temperatures are high--a condition conducive to pre-detonation. You
basically said it in reverse--there is less likelihood of knock with lower EGTs,
all other variables remaining constant. ;-)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:16:16 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Datalog - convert airflow
Hey does anyone know what the conversion is for airflow in Hz to (?)
units?
I'm trying to get the data to a useful unit.
Also, is fuel density fairly constant? Yes, I'm trying to
calculate
approximate a/f ratios from datalog, and also fuel mileage for
that
matter...
Thanks!
Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT
Datalogger
extraordinaire
------------------------------
You guys are making everything more complicated than it should be. If
you
have a stock ECU, you will see higher EGT when knock occurs. This is
simply
because the ECU will retard the timing and more hot, still burning
gases
will flow into the exhaust. Just as simple as that.
Now, that maybe a good indicator but it is a little slow and not every
EGT
gauge will tell you that there is knock fast enough for you to react
and
let off the gas. That stuff is kinda all unreliable. Listening to
the
engine and watching the knock sensor real time is the best way,
IMHO.
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:25:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: a/f guage - knock ?
MAYBE.
Could mean bad timing, coule mean far too rich...coule mean...
Nothing by itself is a tuning miracle.
------------------------------
The injector duty cycle (pulse width) is your most accurate indicator
of
fuel economy.
From there you could estimate what MAF Hz corresponds to what air
flow
(cfm, etc.). Just see how much fuel is coming in while your A/F gauge
shows
stoic, multiply the incoming fuel by 14.7, do appropriate unit
conversions
and compare it to the MAF Hz reading.
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:49:28 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: a/f guage - knock ?
Again, I agree. I was simply making the observation that higher EGT's
can indicate a condition that is prone to knock. I wasn't saying that
every time you have high EGT's you have knock, or that you will only have knock
when you also have high EGTs, or that knock is caused SOLELY by high EGTs.
I was simply making the observation that high EGTs can indicate a knock
condition because the conditions are right. :-)-
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:31:58 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: a/f guage - knock ?
>> You guys are making everything more complicated than
>>
it should be. If you have a stock ECU, you will see
>> higher EGT when
knock occurs.
No you won't - at least not consistently or predictably. Making EGT
worthless as a warning of knock. Knock can occur at (almost) any EGT and high
EGT can occur with no knock, such as during heavy load engine operation.
>> This is simply because the ECU will retard the timing ...
Maybe, maybe not. See partial datalog below.
Besides, timing is normally retarded during heavy load cruising or
accelerating, regardless if knock is present or not. This drives up EGT. Again,
retarded timing (and higher EGT) is not a reliable indicator of knock.
------------------------------
If this belt will hold up for your cars it only costs $63.00 shipped
Any
feed back would be welcome.
Steve
1995 Artic White 3000GT SL
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:52:14 -0600
From: "Donald Ashby" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Help again tranny gurus!
Alright, well I found that allen head bolt underneath the 3-4, 5-R gear
set, and pulled it out, but
the transmission is still being held in by
something? When I tug on it it almost feels like the
shifter pieces are
holding it in, each of them has a cap under it, is there something under there
I
need to take out as well? It is either that or pull out those pins that are
hammered into the rods
and forks, and I've been trying that for a while and
can't get a good enough grip on them with
needle-nose pliers to pull them
out. Is there some trick to getting them out, or can I just drill
them out,
if so where can I find replacements, all my upgraded parts will be here by
Friday, so I
really need to finish getting this thing apart! Please help it's
driving me insane!
Donald Ashby
'93 3000GT VR-4 (RIP)
'92 3000GT VR-4 (Vroom!)
"Don't
drink and park, accidents cause people!"
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#227
***************************************
