Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, August 5
2003 Volume 02 : Number 221
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Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:39:38 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: trace oil from rear turbo
Jeff, is there oil also in the intake hose to the turbo, such as might be
found from the PCV hose draining into the intake hose?
------------------------------
Gee, I've never had NEW turbos! Every time I've gone into the intake
plumbing of our four different cars, I've found differing small amounts of
oil. I don't know if this is normal behavior, but nothing bad has happened
yet. I always clean it out before reassembly.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:05:00 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jim Floyd <
jim_floyd7@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Trace oil from rear turbo - DR500
You won't need to "complain".
Just tell Matt what happened - He'll
replace it.
Mine did the exact same thing - less than 1,500 miles
: (
Other than that how do you like the DR500 performance ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:06:16 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: Break
In Secrets--
This site was listed last week with little comment --- anybody care
to
add their 2 cents. There seems to be some validity to the concept
plus I'm
sure race teams don't drive their newly rebuilt engines a
around for 600
miles to break them in. Anybody with info as to what
race teams do ---
probably 1/2 hour on a dyno with some accelerated
break in.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:21:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Break In Secrets--
Most I know build with this in mind..you can change things like honing
and
clearance techniques..
Also..there are some race teams that dont care..as simple
honda/Pro7-RX7
motors are a dime a dozen, and the 10k you'll get out of it
for a sseason
is enough.
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff
Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:59:03 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Break In Secrets--
I've always broken in a car engine that way, including 3 of our 3S
engines. I
did it with the (SOHC 5spd) Stealth when I bought it (new)
in '94, as
follows-- Mostly high-rev break in period for 50 miles, then
change the oil.
More highway trips in the next higher gear than called for,
then change the
oil at 300 miles. The next 700 miles were purposely at
a variety of RPMs -
highway trips where I'd vary from 65 in 4th (3kRPM) for
50 miles, then 70 in
3rd (4krpm) for 50 miles; in between I'd run a couple of
miles in 2nd at ~60
so as to run at 5k rpm in between; when traffic allowed,
I'd run at 80-90 in
normal gears just like everyone else on the road.
At 1000 miles, I switched
to Mobil-1. At 9000 miles we started racing
the car (and it wasn't a daily
driver). As of April '03, that engine
had 40k miles-- ~30k+ of which were
RACING or high-rev miles, and the
compression was 150 +/- 3 all around.
[For those of you who know that I replaced that Stealth engine
recently...
The engine blew because we ran it with no oil - I didn't do the
change myself,
and the moron at the shop misthreaded the filter - all oil
leaked out when we
ran 150+ miles up I-5 at 100-120mph on our way to
Thunderhill - playing tag
chasing ET's Spec Miata race car. The
pressure looked low as we got there,
but I saw no leaks on the ground and I
misread the dipstick as being full (oil
splash, I guess) when it was really
empty. The engine *had* been perfect
until then. It threw a rod
after one lap around THill the next day. When
they took the
engine apart, the cylinder walls were like mirrors. Perfect.]
I did a similar break in (a combo of street and race) with the '91 VR-4
which
I bought used with a rebuilt engine in March. I ran it with a
variety of RPMs
when I first got it for the first 50 miles, then tried to
polish everything
really fine by babying it a bit up to 200 miles (keeping it
under 90, but
still mostly high-rev break in, and normal driving in
between). Then I
changed the oil. The next 400 miles were a
couple of weekends playing
high-speed, high-rev tag up and down PCH on
weekends, as she got to know her
Spec Miata and I got to know the VR-4.
And changed the oil again. The last
400 miles of the 1000 mile break in
were at Sears Point one weekend this
Spring, when my friend Terry Reynolds,
ET, and I all ran full HPDE schedules
in the VR-4. After that weekend,
we switched to Mobil-1.
When I had the Stealth engine replaced this July, I did my own version of
the
"racing break-in". I ran the first 10 miles on the highway at 4k to
5k revs,
doing a mile each of 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40.
The next 10
miles I ran at higher revs, for a longer period of time--
4k for a few, then
5k for a few, then 6k for a few. Then I drove home
at normal speed for 30
miles, and changed the oil the next day. That
weekend we drove 30 miles to
Sears Point and (before the new engine had 100
miles on it), me and Nissa put
240 racing miles on it between 5k and redline
(6200 in an SOHC). All
high-revs between 60mph and 130mph. Then I
changed the oil that next week.
And ET and I did the rest of the break in up
to 1000 miles with our weekend
tag sessions on Route 1. We switched to
Mobil-1 last weekend.
All the racing guys and engine builders said the same thing - seat the
rings
in the first 20-50 miles with a variety of stresses... low,
medium and high
revs - no mercy. "If the rings are going to die, it
will be in the first 20
miles". Even my (very conservative)
neighborhood shop engine installer
*tempered* what constituted an ideal
breakin when I told him what the racers
had said. His comment: "I'm
*supposed* to tell you not to go over 70 mph for
the first 500 miles".
These guys all know that it's not a race car - our
Stealth is a 'street' car,
set up for racing, and we don't want an engine
rebuild in the near
future. Not on the VR-4 either, which is almost a race
car, that's
still street legal. To each his own, but I feel that quality
machines
break in better when the breakin period includes stressing the
components at
high revs. YMMV...
- ---Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:51:24 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Break In Secrets--
I didn't see anything unusual about their "secret" break-in procedures. The
way I read it, they just vary the engine load during break-in like most good
shops do and recommend. This is easily accomplished using the extra pressures
involved at even mild boost levels for our turbo models.
Except for the possible 3S car that has never been driven and has been
stored in new condition (yeah, it could happen), break-in procedures for us are
only a concern those owners that have rebuilt engines. The rebuild shop will
usually have their own ideas about break-in procedures (and warranty obligations
for the owner).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:49:32 -0400
From: Lesperance LCpl Thomas J
<
LesperanceTJ@2MAWBFT.usmc.mil>
Subject:
Team3S: possible bent valve issue/resolve to car won't spark
Alright, I've read the archives on bent valves and I've checked my car
for
possibilities to the car not sparking. I've looked into the vehicles
timing
to see if the mechanic messed up my timing. When I pulled my cam
covers off
much to my astonishment I found the timing marks on the back to be
slightly
over 90 degrees apart, and odds are in my guess I have bent valves.
Since
the cams are so far out of timing I'm assuming this is why my car
won't
spark. Now, considering they had the car running and it died mid test
run
I'm assuming that's when the belt skipped and threw the timing way out
of
whack. Since it was running that's where I'm basing my guess that my
valves
are bent. So my question is.....What's the best way to test for bent
valves
(car will not start)? and, if I do have bent valves, Will I have to
replace
the piston rings and have the heads machined again as well as
replacing the
valves? I do have a chilton manual for my car. I just need to
know exactly
what will need replaced and how much I'm looking at in
parts.
Thankz everyone,
Tom
'96 3000gt base
(black)
'79 mustang 5.0L base (midnight blue with metallic flake)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:51:18 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: possible bent valve issue/resolve to car won't spark
Personally, if cam timing is that far off, and given your symptoms,
I
would just pull the heads, inspect and take to a machine shop to
have
them check out the valves, and replace any if needed. Piston rings
are
OK, but check for pitting on the actual pistons themselves. This
is
basically a bolt and go situation. Obviously, the heads were
just
recently installed, so there is no way they are warped or
need
machining... You can reuse the head gasket I would say as
well...
Obviously, check for any damage...
So long as its just bent valves, we're looking at a max of $320 for
all
the valves and machine shop labor, then if you are installing the
heads
yourself, then that's it...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:02:07 -0400
From: "Nick Turner" <
chturne4@vt.edu>
Subject: Team3S: lost
nut question
Hi all,
My first post to the list, I drive a 1993 3000GT base model. So I'm in
the
process of replacing spark plug wires, and I am taking the intake
plenum
off, removing the last bolts and nuts. Then the worst happened - the
last
nut falls into the depths of the engine:(. As embarrassing as this is, I
was
wondering if anyone knew if it would cause damage if it was left in
the
abyss. I can't find the thing, and it fell into a "pit" like area
right
underneath the plenum. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks,
Nick
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:07:07 -0500
From: "William J. Crabtree" <
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: lost nut question
As long as it did not fall into the intake, it won't hurt anything.
You may
be able to retrieve it with a telescoping magnet.
- -Jeff Crabtree
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:20:33 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: lost nut question
Nick, find it! Paul in my local club had the same exact thing happen
last
year. The nut got into the timing belt and cost him well over $5000 to
get
his motor rebuilt. Granted, quite a few upgrades went into that
price
figure, but its not fun!! Find it!
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:20:33 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: possible bent valve issue/resolve to car won't spark
If this is your first time checking timing, I would recommend that you
check
again that you are using the right timing marks. There are 3 sets of
marks
on the cams and 3 ways to line them up. I would suggest you find a
local
club member and do the check together. Having only one side jump 90
degrees
and not have visible timing belt damage is very uncommon.
Far as checking, the easiest way is to compression test the rear
cylinders.
Buy a compression tester at a parts store ($35-45). You use them
by taking
out the spark plugs out of all cylinders and placing the tester in
the spark
plug hole, then cranking the engine. MAKE SURE that you have your
throttle
wide open when you do this. For your motor I think the standard
value is
around 170-180 PSI (I'm sure you can look this up in the book). With
90
degree belt skip you will have 0 PSI compression, so it should be easy
to
tell...
Also, having your timing messed up would in no way prevent your car
from
having a spark. The spark may not come at the right time, but it should
be
there.
Be careful when putting your timing covers back on and ensure that you
don't
get anything down into the timing area, otherwise you will have bent
valves
for real :)
While you are at it, burn your chilton manual and buy the factory
service
manual on CD for $35. Its 100 times better and much more detailed
:)
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:59:34 -0700
From: "Andy" <
awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: lost nut question
I had this happen to me Nick and it made me very nervous. As I found
out,
justifiably so. The nut had lodged in the starter gear and if I
had turned
the key it would have been very expensive. I used a million
power
floodlight to look for the thing and I did it at night. It
worked. I
spotted it in its awkward location. I went out and bought a
snake type
magnetic retriever for six dollars and snapped it out of the
engine. Don't
turn the key until you find the nut.
Andy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:48:17 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
possible bent valve issue/resolve to car won't spark
Does anybody know if the base is an interference engine ???
Do a compression check and recheck the timing marks, normally the
belt
will slip a couple of teeth not 90º.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:56:48 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: possible bent valve issue/resolve to car won't spark
> When I pulled my cam covers off much to my astonishment
> I
found the timing marks on the back to be slightly
> over 90 degrees apart,
and odds are in my guess I have bent
> valves.
By "90 degrees apart," do you mean that if you put the intake timing mark
at 12 o'clock, that the exhaust cam mark is pointing near 3 o'clock? If
so, that's about right.
In the following picture, you can see the white circular marks on the two
camshaft sprockets (at about 45 degrees and 315 degrees) and how they're lined
up with the triangular "arrows" on the head (black, behind sprockets).
There are also timing marks visible from the top of the engine - a square
protrusion on the head lines up with the two lines on the back (as shown in
picture) side of the cam sprocket teeth and the triangular protrusion lines up
with the single line on the other camshaft sprocket teeth.
Also, as Tyson said, having the cam timing off will not affect ignition
timing. If your only problem is lack of spark (not nasty clacking noises),
then your valves are probably fine.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:59:18 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: possible bent valve issue/resolve to car won't spark
Tom wrote:
> > Tom
> > '96 3000gt base
(black)
Jim wrote:
> Does anybody know if the base is an interference engine
???
It wasn't until '97 that the base 3000GT got the SOHC engine. Tom's
'96 has the same [interference] DOHC 6G72 that all the '91-'96 base and SL
models have.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:39:57 -0500
From: "Canney, Charles C" <
charles.c.canney@lmco.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: lost nut question
Nick,
Happen to me several times during reassembly. Most often the parts
fell
under the lower intake manifold and lodged under or beside, the water
pump
transfer pipe, which lies in the valley (used to be called lifter valley
in
pushrod motors) between the cylinders. I used a magnet or coat hanger
to
recover my parts, depending on the ferrousity(?)(if it was ferrous or
not)
of the part. A lot of light and patience helps.
Charles
"- the last nut falls into the depths of the engine:(. As embarrassing
as
this is, I was wondering if anyone knew if it would cause damage if it
was
left in the abyss. I can't find the thing, and it fell into a "pit"
like
area right underneath the plenum. "
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#221
***************************************
