Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Monday, August 4
2003 Volume 02 : Number
220
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:41:59 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: VR-4 vs. SL for winter driving
Greg,
The VR4 is an all
wheel driven vehicle and therefore much, much better than
any front or rear
wheel driven cars. I drive the VR4 (just 3000GT here in
Europe) sicne 10
years and every winter. My second 3000GT is indeed my
winter car and I
regulary go skiing with that car. I had an Audi A8 before
but its Quattro is
not half as good as the one on the Mitsubishi. Very
important are the winter
tires. I do run the 235/45-17 from Continental
(known Winter-Contact and are
made for Porsche), they are the best I had on
those cars since the last ten
years ... and believe me, going skiing in
Switzerland, Austria and Italy
means a lot of snow or ice. They also support
ZR speed rating for fast
Autobahn driving but honestly I have never been on
more than 230 km/h with
them in winter times. Never use all year or all
weather tires, they are not
good in winter. If you want to go the cheap way
then better not choosing any
3000GT or Stealth.
Speaking of more power, your right foot and the one of
your daughter are
commanding how much power is spent to the wheels. Automatic
is not my thing
besides of an F1 shifting in the Porsches or Ferraris and
since the VR4 only
comes manual the decision for an all wheel car should be
way over an SL.
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch- ----- Original Message -----
From: G&T Settle
To:
team3s@team3s.comSent: Sunday, August
03, 2003 5:30 PM
Subject: Team3S: VR-4 vs. SL for winter driving
I
am actively looking to buy either a VR-4 or SL for a father-daughter
project
which she will drive when we are done. I really prefer the VR-4,
because of
the technology and extra power. However, we live in the Northeast
US (rural
New York) and I want to ensure that whichever we choose is a
reasonably well
handling vehicle in the winter, as she will be driving this
vehicle
year-round. We get 3 to 4 feet of snow in an average winter and some
ice, but
not usually a lot. I am looking for some guidance on whether the
VR-4 is
better or worse under winter driving conditions. I have been told by
someone
I know at Mitsubishi that the extra horsepower of the VR-4 makes it
more
difficut to drive than an SL in winter, even though it has 4-wheel
drive
which should make it better handling. From reading various posts on
the Team
3S site, I have seen many opinions suggesting good winter tires,
but nothing
really comparing the advantages / disadvantages of these 2
models in the
winter. A couple of secondary questions related to
transmissions: If
the VR-4 is the choice; I have also seen on the site that
the 6-speed Getrag
is problematic. Is it enough of a problem that I should
stay with a 1993 or
earlier model with the 5-speed? If the SL is the best
choice, am I better off
with the manual or automatic transmission for winter
driving? I would really
appreciate any guidance from members out there on
these questions, having had
no experience with 3000GT's before, but very
much looking forward to joining
your ranks. Thanks, Greg Settle
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:05:23
-0400
From: "Dennis r. Ninneman" <
dninneman@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: VR-4 vs. SL for winter driving
The Getrag trans (5 or 6spd)
are problematic. If you are getting
either, plan on a rebuild down the
road. If it is treated kindly
........ it may last a bit longer.
Comments about the choice in general
.............. if you/she aren't
looking for the performance (ie.
horsepower), specifically, then go with the
SL. With the technology
comes complexity. With the complexity
comes more maintenance and more
to go wrong and potentially higher repair
bills. Both are nice rides.
Dennis -==- Philly
G&T
Settle wrote:
>I am actively looking to buy either a VR-4 or SL for a
father-daughter
>project which she will drive when we are done. I really
prefer the VR-4,
>because of the technology and extra power. However, we
live in the Northeast
>US (rural New York) and I want to ensure that
whichever we choose is a
>reasonably well handling vehicle in the winter,
as she will be driving this
>vehicle year-round. We get 3 to 4 feet of
snow in an average winter and some
>ice, but not usually a lot. I am
looking for some guidance on whether the
>VR-4 is better or worse under
winter driving conditions. I have been told by
>someone I know at
Mitsubishi that the extra horsepower of the VR-4 makes it
>more difficut
to drive than an SL in winter, even though it has 4-wheel
>drive which
should make it better handling. From reading various posts on
>the Team 3S
site, I have seen many opinions suggesting good winter tires,
>but nothing
really comparing the advantages / disadvantages of these 2
>models in the
winter. A couple of secondary questions related to
>transmissions:
If the VR-4 is the choice; I have also seen on the site that
>the 6-speed
Getrag is problematic. Is it enough of a problem that I should
>stay with
a 1993 or earlier model with the 5-speed? If the SL is the best
>choice,
am I better off with the manual or automatic transmission for
winter
>driving? I would really appreciate any guidance from members out
there on
>these questions, having had no experience with 3000GT's before,
but very
>much looking forward to joining your ranks. Thanks, Greg
Settle
>
>
>
>*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:18:13
-0400
From: "Danno" <
palermod@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: VR-4 vs. SL for winter driving
Greg,
Personal opinion,
kay? I've owned my VR4 since '97. It's a '95 with a six
speed.
Got about 71,000 miles on it. I run Michelin Pilots in the winter -
I
live in southwest Michigan, right in the middle of the Lake Michigan
snow
belt. We've been known to get snows like you describe. The
car is a dream
in the snow. I have never, and I mean never, been
stuck. We don't have
lots of hills (I grew up in Pittsburgh where there
is no stretch of road
longer than 30 feet that's level!), but the ones we
have here have never
caused any difficulties.
The chromies should not
be run in the snow unless you don't care if they get
trashed. I have an
old set of 18in that I use. They look like shit, and
that's ok. I
have a pristine set of chromies that I run Khomo's on in the
summer.
They're cheap and to be honest, for daily driving I can't tell the
difference
between them and the Michelins at almost twice the price.
No problems
with the tranny yet, although when it's cold I do have some
difficulty
getting into second. A little Red Line in the tranny seemed to
help
that, and literally after the first shift out the driveway I won't
experience
that problem again until the next morning. Summer, the tranny
is
flawless.
Good winter car, despite the power of the VR4. I
have no snow experience
with the SL, so I can't give you a comparison
there. All I can tell you is
that the VR4 handles beautifully in the
snow.
The downside? It's an expensive car to repair, and subjecting
it to salt
and slush is going to have you in the repair shop more
often. Also, I
shudder when I imagine myself in a tangle with one of
those SUVs that are
all over the road up here. And, like many all wheel
drive cars, they're
easier to get going in the snow than they are to
stop. Some practice in a
parking lot is certainly in order. And,
last, I've always questioned the
wisdom putting a car with this kind of power
in the hands of teen. I'm a
surgeon who works trauma and I've buried
too many to think it's a wise idea.
I'd recommend something big, ugly and
slow until they're 21, but that's just
my personal bias based on the
tragedies I deal with almost every weekend
through the summer
months.
At any rate, sounds like a great project. Good
luck!
- - Dan
'95 VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:44:50
-0700
From: "Ioan Raicu" <
iraicu@cs.wayne.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: VR-4 vs. SL for winter driving
IMHO, having owned both a base 93
Stealth, and a 94 TT, I can tell you
that I prefer to drive the TT regardless
of the weather. A good set of
winter tires should be enough to make a
TT/VR-4 a good driver on snow.
The biggest problem I found with the TT and
driving them in snow is the
braking ability, especially since the tires are
so wide and the car is
so heavy, and the ABS unit gets very happy very
quick. I usually
disconnect my ABS fuse, and therefore use my own
knowledge on how to
stop the car, but is significantly harder and takes
longer to stop the
TT in comparison the base Stealth. I do not have
special purpose winter
tires on my TT, and perhaps those winter tires would
be better for
braking, I don't know. Overall, I believe it takes a
better driver to
keep the TT under control in the winter time (I have done a
360 degree
turn once on snow, because my rear end got happy), but since we
can put
a boost controller on the car (and downgrade the performance to
~270
HP), it makes it more acceptable for the winter time.
In terms of
maintenance, well the TT will cost more and be more
demanding, but then
again, it also depends on how it is driven. All
Getrag 5/6 speed
trannies have their problems when they are pushed hard
(1/4 mile drags,
etc...), but then again they are also known to have
premature syncro problems
very early on without too much abuse. From my
own experience, I had to
rebuild my base Stealth's tranny at 90K miles,
and I replaced the clutch once
at 55K miles and again at 90K miles, and
now it has about 140K miles, and it
still runs great. That was the
extent of the problems I have had with
the base Stealth. On the other
hand, I replaced the tranny once at 53K
miles, and again at 65K miles.
The clutch was replaced at 45K miles, 75K
miles, at 85K miles, and I now
have 110K miles and its still running
great. I have had some other
problems, somewhat more minor, but they
were usually directly related to
my own modifications or driving style, such
as tire wear, suspension
going out of alignment (I lowered the suspension),
starter and clutch
slave cylinder (these were the only things that failed
that I had
nothing to do with :), etc... (little things)... Overall, I
have
invested an exponential amount more money in my TT than my base
Stealth,
but then again, the base Stealth I left bone stock while the TT I
kept
modifying little by little, so that might very well be the
difference
between the 2 cars in terms of things going bad...
Good luck with finding a great car, there are less and less of them
on
the road with low mileage.
John Raicu
94 Yellow TT
>> I am actively looking to buy either a VR-4 or SL for
a
father-daughter project which she will drive when we are done. I
really
prefer the VR-4, because of the technology and extra
>>
power. ... Thanks, Greg Settle
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 13:05:58
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: VR-4 vs. SL for winter driving
At 11:30 AM 8/3/2003 -0400,
G&T Settle wrote:
>I am actively looking to buy either a VR-4 or SL
for a father-daughter
>project which she will drive when we are done. I
really prefer the VR-4,
>because of the technology and extra power.
However, we live in the Northeast
>US (rural New York) and I want to
ensure that whichever we choose is a
>reasonably well handling vehicle in
the winter.
My advice:
Buy a VR4 for your joint project.
Buy a
$2,000 Eagle Talon or Eclipse AWD for her winter car, and for
something to
drive whilst the VR4 is in the shop for timing belt,
transmission
replacement, projects, etc. Rent a garage somewhere where you
can store the
VR4 for the four really bad months (Dec-March), and drive the
Talon through
the snow.
That way, you can keep the VR4 project car pristine, out of the
salt, out
of accidents, and so on. Insurance will be much less having a Talon
as the
primary vehicle, and you don't have to get collision coverage on the
Talon.
A VR4 gets around OK in the snow, but it has very little ground
clearance,
so you may have a problem in really deep snow. If you are in the
snow bowl
from Buffalo around the corner to Watertown, you can get some
really deep
stuff. The VR4 will high-center in deep snow. A Talon has more
ground
clearance, so you can get around better.
As for buying a 5
speed or a 6 speed (1st gen v 2nd gen), to get any car
with few problems, pay
extra to buy one with low miles. If you get one that
has 100,000+ miles, you
can expect to be soon replacing ball joints, rear
hubs/bearings, front wheel
bearings, tie rod ends, water pump, timing belt,
clutch, U-joints, and -- of
course -- the transmission, which fails every
60,000 miles.
If you
are really clever and a good talker, buy your car from a General
Motors
dealer, and get them to sell you the GM extended warranty. They may
resist
because of the age and mileage, but if you make it the deal breaker,
you
might get it. A GM aftermarket warranty is GOLD!!!
Tires: Blizzaks on the
Talon get through anything.
Rich/slow old poop
94 3000GT VR4
92
Talon TSi AWD turbo
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:13:44
-0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: VR-4 vs. SL for winter driving
Lots of good advice has
already been given. I will add my 2c. Driving a
VR-4 in winter on bad tires
is a suicide. The car has a lighter rear end
that gets more torque than the
front end (due to the 45/55 or 40/60 torque
split). If would feel like a RWD
car in winter that won't turn and won't
stop. You should plan on getting
either Blizzaks or some studded tires for
winter (I've heard it is legal in
NY). A FWD car won't be as fast in winter
but it will stop and turn better.
It will also let your daughter know when
she does not have enough traction
by spinning front tires, which is much
safer than spinning rear tires or all
four tires on an AWD car.
Both cars are fairly reliable. The only known
problem with AWD
transmissions is a grinding 2nd gear synchro. Also, make
sure there are no
oil leaks when you buy it. FWD transmissions are not
better. Some work
fine, but I also have heard lots of stories of people
having to rebuild
their FWD transmissions over and over, but they are a
little cheaper and
easier to rebuild.
Do not buy an automatic. More
complexity, worse performance and not as fun
to drive.
If you get a
VR-4, either plan on doing all the maintenance and repairs
yourself or start
saving money. These cars are very expensive if you are
planning on having a
shop do all the work on them.
My personal advice: get your daughter a
5-speed SL and a VR-4 for yourself.
Philip
http://supercar-engineering.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:19:22
-0400
From: "Williams, Tommy F" <
WilliamsTF@bernstein.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Mitsu 18" chrome Wheels Bend Easily?
Am I the only one having
problems with the subject wheels? I'm diagnosing a
shaking problem and
it is now narrowed down to the rims and irregular tire
wear (probably caused
by the rims.) Can anyone report similar problems and
what was done to
remedy it. I live in the North East but I'm not hitting
"pot hole" and
two of my wheels are brand new which really pisses me off. I
had the
car on a lift this weekend and when forced to rotate practically all
four
wheels seemed to wobble.
Tommy
'96 VR-4
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:53:11
EDT
From:
M3000GTSL84@aol.comSubject: Re:
Team3S: VR-4 vs. SL for winter driving
Greg-
I
have owned my 97 3000GT SL auto since I was 16. I live in new jersey,
and must commute to school in manhattan everyday, so I leave my car at
the
train station. There have been times when there was ice, snow,
hail, sleet. .
.you name it, because this past winter was pretty bad. I even
got stuck behind
a salt truck on the highway during one storm.
4
wheel drive with snow tires is
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:54:33
-0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Kikmy az offa lyne?
Well, for the cost of a BMW 850, and it being
a V-12 and all, the performance numbers are not all that
staggering:
Acceleration (0-60 mph): 5.4 sec. (manual)
Braking
Distance (60-0 mph): 130 ft.
Roadholding Index (skidpad): 0.78
Base
Number of Cylinders: 12 ;)
Base Engine Size: 5.4 liters
Base Compression
Ratio: 10.1
Horsepower: 371 hp @ 5000 rpm
Torque: 361 lbs./ft. @ 3900
rpm
Compare that to a stock Stealth/3000GT:
Horsepower : 320 hp @
6000 rpm
Torque : 315 lb-ft @ 2500 rpm
0-60 mph : 5.0 sec.
60-0
braking distance : 125 ft
200 ft skidpad : 0.90 g
Base Number of
Cylinders: 6
Base Engine Size: 3.0 L
Note, especially,
the skidpad numbers. I think there are members on this list that would
embarrass an 850 rather badly, and that's not even comparing apples to
apples. :-)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Nick
[mailto:altieris@tulsaconnect.com]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 8:15
PM
To:
Team3S@team3s.comSubject:
RE: Team3S: Kikmy az offa lyne?
First of all- there are several
breeds of Corvettes and BMW's....True- a
stock vette- early 90's model is not
all that impressive compared to an RT
TT- but compare your RT TT to a Z1 or
an LT1 and that's a whole different
story- and I will admit- the fit and
finish on a vette is not superb- but
the fit on an RT I feel is subpar for
the money. If you are racing your TT
against a BMW 325 or even 735 you are
gonna kick his rear- but let's get you
up next to an 850...totally different
story- and I dare you, I DARE YOU to
compare fit an finish on a BMW 8 series
to a Dodge Stealth or Mitsu
3000gt... The quality on the Bimmer is so much
better is not even close
But you are gonna pay for it.
Nick J.
Altieri
altieris@tulsaconnect.comAbove
email is for intended recipient only and may be confidential and protected by
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If you are not the intended recipient, please
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Unauthorized use or distribution is prohibited
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*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:07:35
EDT
From:
M3000GTSL84@aol.comSubject: Re:
Team3S: VR-4 vs. SL for winter driving
Greg-
I
have owned my 97 3000GT SL auto since I was 16. I live in new jersey,
and must commute to school in manhattan everyday, so I leave my car at
the
train station. There have been times when there was ice, snow,
hail, sleet. .
.you name it, because this past winter was pretty bad. I even
got stuck behind
a line of salt trucks on the highway during one
storm.
4 wheel drive with snow tires is the best way
to go. However, FWD with
snow tires will also work just fine. My
chrome rims have been pitted beyond
belief due to the salt, so I keep my
summer tires on my better set of rims, and
just switch them at the
appropriate time. And while the maunal tranny has
greater performance,
in the winter here with all the traffic, an auto tranny can
be a blessing.
It depends on both your daughter's preference and skill with a
manual
tranny.
And just because the car is subjected to road
salt and grime doesnt mean
its going to disintigrate. The underbody
looks normal, so does the body. just
wash and wax as often as you can in the
winter.
I believe a TT is to much for anyone to handle
as there first car. Get
the SL, which still handles just fine in the winter,
goes fast enough, looks
cool, and handles very well in the summer with
sticky tires to. Save that TT for
a few years later like im
doin.
Mike
97 SL
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:26:43
-0500
From: "William J. Crabtree" <
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: trace oil from rear turbo
Hey everyone,
Wanted to get
everyone's opinion on something before calling and
complaining. I just
pulled my motor out of the car last night(because of my
failed
bearing). Unfortunately, I haven't pulled the bottom off of the
motor
to investigate any further what has caused my apparent
bearing
failure.
While disassembling the intake plumbing, I noticed a
small amount of oil in
the plumbing from the rear turbo. There was
nothing of this sort from the
front turbo. These turbos are DR 500's
with (like the engine) less than
1500 miles on them. This concerns me
greatly and I'm curious if I should
call Dynamic and
complain?
Thoughts?
- -Jeff C.
*** Info:
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------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V2
#220
***************************************