Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, July 30 2003 Volume 02 : Number 216

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:37:01 -0500
From: "Canney, Charles C" <charles.c.canney@lmco.com>
Subject: Team3S: Crank Angle Position Sensor Alignment

Greetings,
I am reassembling the engine after replacing 24 valves and numerous other
expensive parts. I installed the crank angle sensor on the end of the
camshaft last weekend but am concerned about alignment. Can the sensor be
installed 180 degrees off? Or does the ECU not care because it fires two
plugs every time (wasted spark system) anyway? It was not addressed in the
service manual and searches turned up nothing.
Thanks for your help.

Charles Canney
'91 Stealth TT
Ft Worth TX

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:26:26 -0400
From: "anthonymelillo" <anthonymelillo@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Subject: RE: Team3S: MSD Ignition Coils

I am very interested in doing this upgrade myself, and your page looks good. But I was wondering how the stock electronics system
would plug into the coils ? Do I need to cut wires ?

Thanks
Anthony Melillo
1997 VR-4, Firestorm Red
http://home.sprintmail.com/~anthonymelillo/3000gt.htm

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:05:24 -0700
From: "Michael, Sharon & Dashiell Rhoden" <rhoden@joimail.com>
Subject: Team3S: Transmission and Exhaust

It looks like my transmission is leaking at the seam with the cover on the
right end of the case. In addition, my exhaust has numerous cracks from
before the catalytic converter to the mufflers.

Mitsu won't fix the transmission leak, they will only offer to replace it at
a cost of $3200. They will repair the exhaust, but want $2000 for it!

Does anyone have a recommendation for good transmission and exhaust shops
(or warnings about bad ones) in the Atlanta area that might be able to help
at a more reasonable cost?

Any other creative approaches you would care to suggest - opportunities I
should take advantage of if I'm messing with these systems anyway, or
suggestions for ways to do the work myself?

Thanks,

Michael
92 VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:03:26 -0400
From: "Williams, Tommy F" <WilliamsTF@bernstein.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

I took some time today at a shop I trust to go over my braking issue and
here's what they did.

First the technician lifted the car and a second one started it and engaged
the transmission to rotate the wheels. They were all a little wobbly but
nothing too much out of the ordinary.

He then removed the LF wheel and again rotated the hub this time with a
measuring device to see if the rotor was out. There was a little movement
and it measured about 5000 ??. He then removed the rotor and performed the
same measurement on the hub. There was some corrosion and he removed it
incase it was causing the rotor to not seat properly.

I again had all four wheels balanced and yet the problem persists.

The mechanic that I trust thinks it's possibly the wheels and tires. The
tires did appear a little oddly shaped when he spun them but I don't know
what's within tolerance.

I continue to get a noticeable vibration through the steering wheel around
40 MPH when braking. The mechanic said the he noticed it at higher speeds
when not braking.

Has anyone had a tire wear irregularly to the extent that the roundness is
breached? I have Toyo tires on the car.

I am desperate to fix this problem and the cost of auto diagnostics are
mounting.

HELP!

Tommy
'96 VR-4
65K

- -----Original Message-----
From: Grd4Spd Racing [mailto:grd4spdracing@cox.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:41 AM
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

> our cars are full time AWD with
> a VCD (NOT
> A LSD) and unless the establishment that is doing the balancing
> is aware of
> this you can fry the VCU and transmission.

communication with ones mechanic/shop is key here. :)

the mechanic/shop performing the service should know this, however just to
be safe, one might consider communicating this to/with the shop that its AWD
w/VCD and they will need to take the necessary steps execute the job
properly. to blame a procedure for damages when in actuality the damages are
a result of operator error is, well, "misguided" :). many times ones results
are only as good as the person performing them. in the alternative one might
suggest to the shop that they perform the service with all 4 corners in the
air. :)

regards,
terry

"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing - www.grd4spd.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***
- -----------------------------------------
The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Please note that we do not accept account orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and therefore will not be responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:10:58 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

The solution is simple.
Find another 3000GT/Stealth and swap wheels and tires. If the problem goes
away, start swapping back until you find the culprit.
Don't you have any Stealth buddies in town? This sounds like a two sixpack
job to me.
Rich

>Has anyone had a tire wear irregularly to the extent that the roundness is
>breached? I have Toyo tires on the car. I am desperate to fix this problem
and the cost of auto diagnostics are
>mounting.
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:16:36 -0400
From: "Williams, Tommy F" <WilliamsTF@bernstein.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

This is exactly what the mechanic suggested. I actually have another set of
wheels but I didn't consider using them because they are 17x8 and where used
on my NA Stealth. I guess I'd better get busy on this.

Thanks,
Tommy

- -----Original Message-----
From: merritt@cedar-rapids.net [mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 6:11 PM
To: Williams, Tommy F; 'Grd4Spd Racing'; 'Team3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

The solution is simple.
Find another 3000GT/Stealth and swap wheels and tires. If the problem goes
away, start swapping back until you find the culprit.
Don't you have any Stealth buddies in town? This sounds like a two sixpack
job to me.
Rich

>Has anyone had a tire wear irregularly to the extent that the roundness is
>breached? I have Toyo tires on the car. I am desperate to fix this problem
and the cost of auto diagnostics are
>mounting.
>

- -----------------------------------------
The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Please note that we do not accept account orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and therefore will not be responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:15:08 -0600
From: "Greg Gonzales" <92stealthtt@comcast.net>
Subject: Team3S: Idle Problem update...RESOLVED

Finally idle problem resolved. A quick review of what transpired.On a trip
back from denver I stopped to put gas, ate, then started on my trip again,
on deceleration the car would jerk, and the idle was very erratic going from
200-1200. I tried what I could, from replacing, the BISS gasket, checking
and cleaning the ISC, buying a new ISC, checking the fuel pump relay,
checking the spark plugs, checking the ignition coil, cleaning the throttle
body, checking for vacum leaks(pita) during this time I had spoken with
"macg23" on 3si message board. He had identical problems. This issue was
that the timingbelt on his car had skipped 2 teeth. I had been taking it to
the dealer during this time as well...I know I know...they did the 60k
service less than 3 months ago. So I took it in today and they checked the
timingbelt. And yes mine was off 1 tooth. The issue is resolved as of now.
Car runs awesome, Thanks for everyone for their ideas regarding my problem.
Also thanks to Gabe92 RTTT who let me use his datalogger and helped me to
diagnose the problem even further. And thanks again to macg23 who had the
same problem and was willing to listen to my gripes.

Greg Gonzales
92 RT TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:30:29 -0500
From: "Canney, Charles C" <charles.c.canney@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Crank Angle Position Sensor Alignment

Hi Jim,
I may wrong, and I didn't actually try reversing the sensor, but the drive
connection to the camshaft looked symmetrical, similar (but different) to
the way a small block Chevy distributor attaches to the oil pump drive.

The timing belt self destructed at 57K miles because (I think) the previous
owner never changed the coolant, and/or used tap water, the water pump
bearing locked up from corrosion, cocked the pulley, driving the t-belt
through it's cover like a band saw, all without spilling a drop. It happened
on the highway at cruising speed and I didn't hear it but did remember
smelling, what I thought at the time, a grass fire. Eight months of part
time labor, $2K in parts and machine work, and it is almost back together.
CharlesCanney

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:30:50 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Transmission and Exhaust

For the transmission tighten the bolts clean the case with brake cleaner
and apply a generous coat of RTV to the seam. There is no pressure in
the trans so the leak is not pressurized.

You might try to isolate the leak first --- after cleaning with brake fluid
drive it for a bit and see if you can detect the leak. A tranny shop can
remove the tranny and separate the case and reseal it --- there are no
gaskets in the tranny just RTV. The cost would be several hundred for
a tranny shop --- guessing at $400 or so to pull, repair and replace.

I'm not sure where the cracks in the exhaust are --- if it's just from the
cat back you can get a complete stainless aftermarket system, sans
active exhaust, for $800 plus installation or go to a muffler shop and
get it replaced with aluminized steel for $300 or so.

 Jim Berry
================================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael, Sharon & Dashiell Rhoden" <rhoden@joimail.com>

> It looks like my transmission is leaking at the seam with the cover on the
> right end of the case. In addition, my exhaust has numerous cracks from
> before the catalytic converter to the mufflers.
>
> Mitsu won't fix the transmission leak, they will only offer to replace it at
> a cost of $3200. They will repair the exhaust, but want $2000 for it!
>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for good transmission and exhaust shops
> (or warnings about bad ones) in the Atlanta area that might be able to help
> at a more reasonable cost?
>
> Any other creative approaches you would care to suggest - opportunities I
> should take advantage of if I'm messing with these systems anyway, or
> suggestions for ways to do the work myself?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael
> 92 VR4
>
>
>
> *** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:41:27 -0600
From: "Gabe Simoes" <gabe92rttt@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Idle Problem update...RESOLVED

Glad you got evertying working well, Greg. Now just get that new oil cap
and you will be set...we rigged the seal a bit, but it won't be as good as a
new one. Anytime you need the logger or pressure tester, lemme know.

Gabe
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Gonzales" <92stealthtt@comcast.net>
To: "'Team3S'" <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 4:15 PM
Subject: Team3S: Idle Problem update...RESOLVED

> Finally idle problem resolved. A quick review of what transpired.On a trip
> back from denver I stopped to put gas, ate, then started on my trip again,
> on deceleration the car would jerk, and the idle was very erratic going
from
> 200-1200. I tried what I could, from replacing, the BISS gasket, checking
> and cleaning the ISC, buying a new ISC, checking the fuel pump relay,
> checking the spark plugs, checking the ignition coil, cleaning the
throttle
> body, checking for vacum leaks(pita) during this time I had spoken with
> "macg23" on 3si message board. He had identical problems. This issue was
> that the timingbelt on his car had skipped 2 teeth. I had been taking it
to
> the dealer during this time as well...I know I know...they did the 60k
> service less than 3 months ago. So I took it in today and they checked the
> timingbelt. And yes mine was off 1 tooth. The issue is resolved as of now.
> Car runs awesome, Thanks for everyone for their ideas regarding my
problem.
> Also thanks to Gabe92 RTTT who let me use his datalogger and helped me to
> diagnose the problem even further. And thanks again to macg23 who had the
> same problem and was willing to listen to my gripes.
>
> Greg Gonzales
> 92 RT TT
>
>
> *** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:45:40 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Colder spark plugs

Well a colder heat-range plug should reduce the plug's contribution to the propensity of a cylinder to detonate. Detonation may still occur regardless of the plug's heat range. Platinum, copper, iridium shouldn't make any difference as far as detonation is concerned. A spark plug's contribution will be heat, or rather, the ability/inability to remove heat from the combustion chamber.

Iridium is a precious metal just like platinum. All the precious metal tipped plugs can be treated the same as far as spark gap voltage is concerned. It is the small size of the precious metal disk welded to the electrode that reduces required voltage, not the metallurgy.

More info:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-sparkplugtech.htm

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stanton" <ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
To: <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Colder spark plugs

> "5" is *hotter* for NGK plugs. For a colder plug you'll want want a
>number higher than 6, which would be a 7 or 8. As far as I have found

DOH! Glad you pointed that out, I musta missed that!

>out, you will have to go to a non-resistor plug if you want NGK's heat
>range 8 because of our 5/8" hex size. Maybe I should re-color the >table
using reddish for hotter and bluish for colder. :)

I think a 7 will do me fine, I'm going to make other changes also that
should assist.

> Any plug can increase knock tendency if the tip temperatures are high.

That's a bit vague - are you saying that a colder plug might not help me, or
that another material alone won't solve my knock problem?

So iridium would allow me a larger gap than platinum, is that what I'm
gathering?

Ken

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:48:48 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Team3S: Experience in Body kit quality ?

Guys,

I just sold a guy in Germany a bodykit that looked good on pictures but the
fittment is horrible. The front has gaps of up to 2 inches around the lights
and doesn't line up. Furthermore the side steps are somewhat bent and if
cutting the parts it will not fot the front fender anymore. The body shop in
Germany said that the front bumper is almost impossible to make it nice. The
sideskirts, maybe with some heating and bending the fiberglass may be able
to be stretched into the desired position.

Something similar to the under spoiler from KAZE that was also not the best
quality when Luis from Spain installed it. The one that I have seems to fit
good but also needs some work too.

So what's your experiences in aftermarket bumpers, spoilers and body kits.
How much work was involed until the looked good on your car ? It seems that
some molds getting damaged over the time and so the resulting bumper becomes
messy or not even on the sides (like it is bent). What about Pitroad M, or
Bomex ? How much did you pay to make it fit ?

Thanks in advance
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:50:05 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: MSD Ignition Coils

>> relocating the coils to any place you want

One downside of this is that longer wires (well any that are longer) will also have higher total resistance along the wire and because of this they will transmit less total current to the spark plug from the coil. Depending on your setup this may or may not have any noticeable effect on performance.

The new routing may also make it difficult to isolate the ignition wires from each other and other wires/components.

As another member mentioned, there is also the problem of getting the wiring harness to the new location. I replaced the coils and power transistor last weekend (with new factory ones), and did not notice that there was a few feet of slack in the harness. :)

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <john.monnin@comcast.net>
To: "Wayne Thomas" <waynethomas@quicksilver.net.nz>
Cc: <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:24 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: MSD Ignition Coils

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:59:04 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Braking Problem & crow pie

Well, time for me to eat a little crow. Thankfully, I do not have to taste this delicacy more often than once or so a year. :)

I wrote Wendy at Porterfield and asked why they used Autospecialty's PowerStop part number scheme. Here is her response.

================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Wendy @ Porterfield's" <porterfieldbrakes@earthlink.net>
To: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: Porterfield Email Form

We use what is called an FMSI number (Friction Materials Standards
Institute). Autospecialty also uses the same numbers often times we refer to their books for reference.
================================================

Still being the skeptical type, I search around for any other rotor manufacturer/reseller that uses similar numbers for our rotors. I could find only 4 (left front rotor as an example):
TRW PowerStop: JBR-582L
TRW Kelsey-Hayes: JBR-582
PowerSlot: 582PSL
Porterfield: JBR 582

Note that I did not find FMSI mentioned anywhere, but the "582" in the part number does suggest some sort of "standardized" numbering scheme, at least partially. For all we know it might just be TRW's scheme and has nothing to do with FMSI.

That I could find, not a single other major manufacturer of OEM replacement rotors used the supposed "FMSI" numbers. I mean Brembo and ATE make OEM replacements for lots of makes and models and do not use this scheme (that I could find an example of). In fact, I could not find any reference to FMSI rotor numbers anywhere (except for Wendy's claim above).

There are plenty of FMSI numbers for brake pads. And I found some for clutch disc facing material. If there are "standard" FMSI numbers for OEM rotors, it has got to be one of the best kept secrets. Perhaps a member of this list is a member of FMSI or knows someone who is and could get us more info on this (if anyone really cares).

So, swallowing first bite of crow, my assumption that Porterfield sells PowerStop rotors because the similar part numbers appears to be incorrect (I'm still not 100% convinced of this yet). And I did update my brake upgrade guide with the recent info from Wendy.

And, chewing on second bite, my description of their marketing as "deceptive" should be downgraded to "poor choice for part numbers" (perhaps).

My apologies to all who took offense at my statements or that might have been mislead.

That being said, I would still not buy Porterfield rotors for my street-driven car (Brembo would still be my first choice, not that PowerStop rotors have served me poorly in any manner). And if I raced my car I would get a *real* brake upgrade (Brembo or AP).

I still stand by my initial criticism of those that casually state "Brand X" is a poor OEM replacement choice just because it is supposedly "scrap steel" (hehe, see next paragraph). Knowing how heavily regulated by the US Government safety-related components are for our cars, it is hard to imagine that any safety-related part such as a brake rotor could be sold here without passing at least some minimal standards.

Now for the funny part (and technical I hope). Rotors, such as our stock rotors, and any OEM replacement, that use a vented design (also called vaned) are *cast iron*. Except for a very few special designs, steel rotors are *solid*, no vents, no vanes. Now some hats are steel (two piece rotors), but the disc part is cast iron (if vaned).

Perhaps the derisive statement made toward PowerStop rotors (by implication) should have been "scrap iron". :)

More info on cast iron:
http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art63.htm
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/courses/bae201/classification/classify.pdf
http://www.castingsource.com/tech_art_understanding.asp

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:28:47 -0500
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

Runout is elminated with that ride match machine. Then it is
balanced....

- -Cody

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rivenburg, Pete [mailto:privenburg@firstam.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:04 AM
> To: 'cody'
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
>
> does anyone do run out shaving?
> It would seem to me strictly from an engineering stand point that the
run
> out should be eliminated BEFORE balancing a high speed tire. Just
makes
> sense.
>
> Pete Rivenburg
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cody [mailto:overclck@satx.rr.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:07 PM
> To: 'Grd4Spd Racing'; 'Team3S'
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
>
>
> Just answer the simple question, does or does "on the car balancing"
> test for wheel / tire run out???
>
> Can it do this:
> http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/product.htm
>
> -Cody
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
> Behalf
> > Of Grd4Spd Racing
> > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 9:52 PM
> > To: 'Team3S'
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
> >
> > on the car balancing is the proper way to balance the car, period.
> >
> > you and i will continue to disagree and battle/discuss our point(s)
> > however
> > i will stop here. thanx for your input. :)
> >
> > regards,
> > terry
> >
> >
> > "If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
> > Grd4Spd Racing - www.grd4spd.com
> >
> >
> >
> > *** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***
>
>
>
> *** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:31:18 -0500
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

While that will work, you need to have the runout and road force
measured.

Many times a tire will "appear" round, but have inconsistencies.

http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/product.htm

Find a shop with that machine. Have them test the assembly.

- -Cody

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
Behalf
> Of Williams, Tommy F
> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:17 PM
> To: 'merritt@cedar-rapids.net'; Williams, Tommy F; 'Grd4Spd Racing';
> 'Team3S'
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
>
> This is exactly what the mechanic suggested. I actually have another
set
> of
> wheels but I didn't consider using them because they are 17x8 and
where
> used
> on my NA Stealth. I guess I'd better get busy on this.
>
> Thanks,
> Tommy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: merritt@cedar-rapids.net [mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 6:11 PM
> To: Williams, Tommy F; 'Grd4Spd Racing'; 'Team3S'
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
>
> The solution is simple.
> Find another 3000GT/Stealth and swap wheels and tires. If the problem
goes
> away, start swapping back until you find the culprit.
> Don't you have any Stealth buddies in town? This sounds like a two
sixpack
> job to me.
> Rich
>
> >Has anyone had a tire wear irregularly to the extent that the
roundness
> is
> >breached? I have Toyo tires on the car. I am desperate to fix this
> problem
> and the cost of auto diagnostics are
> >mounting.
> >
>
>
> -----------------------------------------
> The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged
and
> confidential information and is intended only for the use of the
person(s)
> named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or
> agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended
recipient,
> any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and
> destroy all copies of the original message. Please note that we do not
> accept account orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and therefore
will
> not be responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions.
>
>
>
> *** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:34:42 -0500
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

GO to that site, click on GSP9700, then click on "locate"

In San Antonio, I came up with 35 results, 15 of which are at Discount
Tire locations...

- -Cody

> While that will work, you need to have the runout and road force
> measured.
>
> Many times a tire will "appear" round, but have inconsistencies.
>
> http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/product.htm
>
> Find a shop with that machine. Have them test the assembly.
>
> -Cody
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:19:32 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem & crow pie

> My apologies to all who took offense at my statements or that
> might have been mislead.

no worries.

of all the incestual tendencies withing in the brake industry they got one
part right....(fairly) universal part #s

regards,
terry

"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing - www.grd4spd.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:26:14 -0400
From: "Sergiy Lyuznyy" <svl@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: AC and stalling out

A little comments to my previous message:

In my case ISC stepper & wires where O'k.
I'm really sure CPU new for how many clicks and which direction ISC pintle
was rotating each time it was activated. But CPU totally had no glue why
idle RPMs was pulsing in range 400-1500 for instance, even being corrected
(god knows how many times) with certain (predefined/calculated) amount of
ISC clicks in to the well known (predefined/calculated) direction.

The reason was:
CPU believed it knows, correct amount of sucked air on idle - FALSE,
it knows electric/stearing load - FALSE.

Saying 'recalibrate' I ment - having statement described above, CPU invocked
microcode routines, designed to deal with such situations.

Clearing CPU memory was necessary to clear wrong statement, collected by CPU
in its the war with idle.

P.S. Unfortunatelly I have no new information regarding CPU programming for
our cars. My assumption was based on experience as microcontroller
programmer and information collected by monitoring my car.

94 Stealth TT,
Sergiy Lyuznyy.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
To: <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: AC and stalling out

If I am reading Sergiy's statements correctly, I am afraid I must take issue
with some of them.

The engine ECU does not monitor and use all sensors for every control
situation (trivial point but needs stated).

The ECU might have some maps stored to control ISC steps based on engine RPM
and load (or other parameter), or it may simply calculate the values that
are needed. The ECU may use either method or both to determine control
values. Unfortunately, we do not know our ECU well enough to know which is
used in all situations.

The ways the ECU uses the ISC/IAC servo are well documented and include the
following, besides its primary function of controlling basic idle speed.

- - When the power steering oil switch is turned on
- - When the air conditioner compressor is operating
- - To compensate for thinner air at higher altitudes
- - To provide assistance to the dashpot (turbo models) during cruising and
deceleration
- - To assist in starting the engine
- - To provide idle stabilzation during hot starts (coolant temperature above
194ºF)
- - To provide additional air during cruising and acceleration

See my web page below for more information.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-isc-iac.htm

I would guess in some situations, such as during cruising and acceleration,
a map value might be easiest to use. However, to control idle speed all the
ECU need know is RPM and then compensate for electric load, coolant temp,
and high altitude. Maps are not needed.

The ECU always knows which direction to rotate the servo's pintle because
this requires that the four coils are energized in a particular sequence
(the service manuals explain this). Now whether the servo's components are
operating correctly to do what the ECU wants is another matter.

Resetting the ECU does not affect ISC/IAC servo operation that I am aware
of.

See: http://www.tmo.com/theory/myth/ecureset.htm

The ECU does not "recalibrate" on the fly that I am aware of. However, it
does seem to know the servo's pintle positions. It could easily twist the
lead screw all the way in and out at startup or another time in order to
"index" the ISC counts, though I have not seen this on datalogs. The many
TMO logs I have recorded or observed have never shown this type of action
when the AC is turned on or other electric load applied to the engine.

If Sergiy has new information regarding the programming of our ECU hopefully
he will share it and the source with us, especially if it is for '94 models.

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Sergiy Lyuznyy" <svl@idirect.com>
To: "Stephen C. Kempf" <kempfsc@mail.auburn.edu>
Cc: "Team3S" <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: AC and stalling out

I got exactly the same problem with my car at about a year ago.

This was cured by replacing two hoses, feeding breake & clutch vacuum
busters (the valves were leaking) and PCV valve. Steering system pressure
switch & electric load switch were fixed too.

ISC/IAC servo is fine if it shows 28 Ohm. resistance for each of four coils

The computer constantly monitoring sensors sending, if needed, pulse
sequence to the ISC stepper, saying to open or to close, depending on
situation. The trick is - it is using stored numbers, calculated by
developpers, which were based on math model for processes in the intake
maniford. With time, because of wear and tear, resulting in vacuum/pressure
leack, the real statement differs, sometimes significantly. As the result
computer gets creasy in not knowing which direction and for how many clicks
rotate ISC to stabilize idle. Some calibration routines are presented, but
for sure not all situations are covered. This might get even worse if some
sensors are not working properly.

Computer memory reset is a must after all repairs are done.

P.S. AC, being on, might cure situation by sending 'AC load switch' signal
to the computer this way letting him to recalibrate.

94 Stealth TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:59:24 -0600
From: "Greg Gonzales" <92stealthtt@comcast.net>
Subject: Team3S: OFF TOPIC: Sorta..best way to check for need of a new clutch?

I am looking at buying a used vehicle as a grocery getter other than using
my stealth 80% of the time and my motorcycle 20%. What are some methods that
I can check a car or trucks clutch to make sure it will not need one in the
near future.
Any ideas suggestions are welcome. Thanks!
Greg Gonzales
92 RT TT
02 GSXR 600

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:55:57 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: Porsche Carrera GT

just thought i would share.....

http://www.ferfolia.net/james/porsches/large/

regards,
terry

"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing - www.grd4spd.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:54:14 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: Team3S: tire wear

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C35635.1C7A0500
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
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Hey gang,

 I managed to tear up my pass. rear tire, so they had to
replace it. I was told that the tire they took off had 7/32" of tread
left, down from 10/32". That translates into a diff of ~2.3mm. Is this
something I should be worried about? Will this difference affect
handling/stability or damage the vcu at all? If yes, can I have them
(discount tire) shave it down or something?

TIA,

Alex

'95 VR4

- ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C35635.1C7A0500
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</style>

</head>

<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

Hey gang,

 

         =
   I managed to tear up my pass. rear tire, so they
had to replace it. I was told that the tire they took off had =
7/32” of
tread left, down from 10/32”. That translates into a diff of =
~2.3mm. Is
this something I should be worried about? Will this difference affect =
handling/stability
or damage the vcu at all? If yes, can I have them (discount tire) shave =
it down
or something?

 

TIA,

 

Alex

’95 VR4

</div>

</body>

</html>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C35635.1C7A0500--

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:40:46 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

> I am desperate to fix this problem and the cost of auto diagnostics are
> mounting.
>
> HELP!

well....if you were in SoCal i could direct you to my suspension setup guys
who would fix it for you in a flash....is it worth a trip to San Diego? :)

regards,
terry

"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing - www.grd4spd.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:29:08 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Braking Problem

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
> While that will work, you need to have the runout and road force measured.
> Many times a tire will "appear" round, but have inconsistencies.
> http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/product.htm
> Find a shop with that machine. Have them test the assembly.
> -Cody
- ---------------------------------->

I second that. The Hunter is the *only* machine that you should use - don't
trust anyone who says that their machine is 'similar'. The
"CustomAlignment.com" shop that Geoff and I use in Mountainview - rated one of
the best in the country(!) - uses the Hunter, as does one of the (surprisingly
good for a 'chain') Discount Tire outlets I used recently for replacement of
tires under warranty. There is no substitute for the Hunter, and the good
shops know it. And don't let them neutralize spending that good money on a
real alignment by mistorqueing your wheels. That can also cause vibration,
especially if you're using lightweight wheels. Hand-torqueing *only* to 95#
(90#-100# - it's your call).
Best,
- ---Forrest

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 02:47:14 -0500
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: tire wear

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C35644.EFE3BB70
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charset="us-ascii"
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So long as there is less than 4/32 of available tread, you are ok!

- -Cody

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Alex Pedenko
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 12:54 AM
To: Team3S@team3s.com
Subject: Team3S: tire wear

Hey gang,

 I managed to tear up my pass. rear tire, so they had to
replace it. I was told that the tire they took off had 7/32" of tread
left, down from 10/32". That translates into a diff of ~2.3mm. Is this
something I should be worried about? Will this difference affect
handling/stability or damage the vcu at all? If yes, can I have them
(discount tire) shave it down or something?

TIA,

Alex
'95 VR4

- ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C35644.EFE3BB70
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<style>

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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple =
style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'>

<div class=3DSection1>

So long as there is less than 4/32 =
of
available tread, you are ok!<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

-Cody<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>

-----Original Message----- 
From: =
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On =
Behalf Of
Alex Pedenko 
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, =
2003
12:54 AM 
To: Team3S@team3s.com 
Subject: Team3S: tire =
wear

<o:p> </o:p>

Hey gang,<o:p></o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

         =
  
I managed to tear up my pass. rear tire, so they had to replace it. I =
was told
that the tire they took off had 7/32” of tread left, down from
10/32”. That translates into a diff of ~2.3mm. Is this something I =
should
be worried about? Will this difference affect handling/stability or =
damage the
vcu at all? If yes, can I have them (discount tire) shave it down or =
something?<o:p></o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

TIA,<o:p></o:p>

 <o:p></o:p>

Alex<o:p></o:p>

’95 VR4<o:p></o:p>

</div>

</div>

</body>

</html>

- ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C35644.EFE3BB70--

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:29:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: g2write@newsguy.com
Subject: Team3S: Help removing rear hatch

I am trying to repalce my rear hatch and am having trouble finding any clips
to disconect the wiring harness. there are clips that detatch from the wiper
moter and defroster but it doesn't look like they will pull through the side
of the hatch frame. Has anyone replaced thier trunk/hatch that can help? I
really don't want to cut the wires if I don't have to.
Thanks,
Gary

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:29:28 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Transmission and Exhaust

If you are at all mechanically inclined, you can probably fix the leak yourself. Use Grey Ultra sealer by Permatex (the stuff that is intended for high heat, high torque applications). I used that on my case, and it has never leaked a drop. (Knock on wood, now that I jinxed myself ;)"

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael, Sharon & Dashiell Rhoden [mailto:rhoden@joimail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:05 PM
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: Team3S: Transmission and Exhaust

It looks like my transmission is leaking at the seam with the cover on the
right end of the case. In addition, my exhaust has numerous cracks from
before the catalytic converter to the mufflers.

Mitsu won't fix the transmission leak, they will only offer to replace it at
a cost of $3200. They will repair the exhaust, but want $2000 for it!

Does anyone have a recommendation for good transmission and exhaust shops
(or warnings about bad ones) in the Atlanta area that might be able to help
at a more reasonable cost?

Any other creative approaches you would care to suggest - opportunities I
should take advantage of if I'm messing with these systems anyway, or
suggestions for ways to do the work myself?

Thanks,

Michael
92 VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

Above email is for intended recipient only and may be confidential and protected by attorney/client privilege.
If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender immediately.
Unauthorized use or distribution is prohibited and may be unlawful.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:16:30 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

This is correct if you assume that you are NEVER going to change the wheels. If you change wheels to mount track tires, now your balance is worthless. If you demount wheels, rotate them one stud, and remount them, your balance is likewise geshmecht. Cody is right, dynamic balancing the wheel/tire combination off the car is the best practical way to go.

Chuck Willis

balancing a whole rotating mass is much better engineering than balancing a
single componet of a system and trusting that the other componets are
balanced one should do this whenever possible, this is basic, sound
engineering pratice.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:23:39 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

> If you change wheels to mount track tires, now your
> balance is worthless.

almost. :)

speed balance your race rubber. index, remove, reinstall, wash, rinse,
repeat. :)

> If you demount wheels, rotate them one
> stud, and remount them, your balance is likewise geshmecht.

speed balance your street rubber. index, remove, reinstall, wash, rinse,
repeat. :)

rotate? = rebalance.

expensive? "yes".....

"speeds a question of money, how fast you wanna go?" ;)

regards,
terry

"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing - www.grd4spd.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:28:00 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Transmission and Exhaust

Take the car to a muffler shop for a real quote on the exhaust repair. You can get a complete aftermarket exhaust for about $2400.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael, Sharon & Dashiell Rhoden [mailto:rhoden@joimail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:05 PM
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: Team3S: Transmission and Exhaust

It looks like my transmission is leaking at the seam with the cover on the
right end of the case. In addition, my exhaust has numerous cracks from
before the catalytic converter to the mufflers.

Mitsu won't fix the transmission leak, they will only offer to replace it at
a cost of $3200. They will repair the exhaust, but want $2000 for it!

Does anyone have a recommendation for good transmission and exhaust shops
(or warnings about bad ones) in the Atlanta area that might be able to help
at a more reasonable cost?

Any other creative approaches you would care to suggest - opportunities I
should take advantage of if I'm messing with these systems anyway, or
suggestions for ways to do the work myself?

Thanks,

Michael
92 VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:31:23 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem

> Hand-torqueing
> *only* to 95#
> (90#-100# - it's your call).

excellent point! after having them speed balanced (on the car) always have
them use and high quality hand torque wrench to tighten yer nutz....very
important. ;)

regards,
terry

"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing - www.grd4spd.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:45:13 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: AC and stalling out

>> But CPU totally had no glue why idle RPMs was pulsing in range 400-1500

Of course. The ECU is simple, not and expert and not a learning net. That is why we have to solve engine operation problems. :)

>> ... CPU believed it knows, correct amount of sucked air on idle - FALSE

Unless there is a leak or a VPC or other speed density system is installed, the ECU knows exactly how much air (within some level of accuracy) is flowing at idle or any engine speed. It is measured by the mass air sensor (any type).

>> ... it knows electric/stearing load - FALSE.

The ECU monitors the power steering switch, the AC compressor, and the electric load switch (lights, etc.).

This information, including idle speed control logic, is all explained and documented in the service and technical manuals. Study the Stealth and Laser/Talon (DSM) Technical Manuals to learn how our ECU controls most, if not all, engine operations.

The STIM is available at my web site and at Team3S. The DSM TIM is available from www.manualcd.com . I might see if Vinny will give me permission to make his PDF file available at my web site. I have also considered scanning the Laser TIM that I have a copy of (it's slightly different than Vinny's copy) - next time I think I'll have 200 hours of free time. :)

>> Clearing CPU memory was necessary to clear wrong statement,
>> collected by CPU in its the war with idle.

There is no evidence of this for 1991-1993 models. Nobody knows or understands yet the '94-'95 ECUs. I am not sure of the extent of control of OBDII (1996+) ECU's.

Read: http://www.tmo.com/theory/myth/ecureset.htm

For those interested in the DSM/3S ECU workings check out the new forums below.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dsm-ecu/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AdvancedDSM/

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Sergiy Lyuznyy" <svl@idirect.com>
To: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Cc: "Team3S" <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: AC and stalling out

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:49:14 -0600
From: Gabe Simoes <Gabe92RTTT@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire wear

When you replace one tire, you should replace all tires. I am
surprised they did that. Usually Discount will insist you replace all
of them because the difference in tread height could cause problems
with your differential.

Gabe Simoes

1992 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin Turbo

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Pedenko <alex@kolosy.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:54 pm
Subject: Team3S: tire wear

> Hey gang,
>
>
>
> I managed to tear up my pass. rear tire, so they had to
> replace it. I was told that the tire they took off had 7/32" of tread
> left, down from 10/32". That translates into a diff of ~2.3mm. Is
this
> something I should be worried about? Will this difference affect
> handling/stability or damage the vcu at all? If yes, can I have them
> (discount tire) shave it down or something?
>
>
>
> TIA,
>
>
>
> Alex
>
> '95 VR4
>
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:44:46 -0400
From: "Williams, Tommy F" <WilliamsTF@bernstein.com>
Subject: Team3S: Emissions in Atlanta Ga.

Can someone in Atlanta area help me out. My wonderful Stealth R/T has now
found a new home in Atlanta. It seems to he having a problem passing
emissions. The car runs great and I had absolutely no problems in New York.

The car has K&N filter, DNP hard intake pipe, DNP Down Pipe, Borla exhaust
with Toucan twin tips and a testpipe.com free-er flowing cat.

Those are the only mods on the car other than a Quafe LSD.

Why can't it pass emissions in ATL????????

I put new plugs and wires on the car before delivering the car a week ago.

Tommy
- -----------------------------------------
The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Please note that we do not accept account orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and therefore will not be responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:26:03 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Transmission and Exhaust

$2400 --- I guess so !!! You could get SS precat eliminators, downpipe, high flow cat
and SS cat back exhaust for $1700 plus install. That setup would replace everything
from the turbo back with stainless [ active exhaust will be eliminated ].

 Jim Berry
====================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>

> Take the car to a muffler shop for a real quote on the exhaust repair. You can get a complete aftermarket exhaust for about
$2400.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael, Sharon & Dashiell Rhoden [mailto:rhoden@joimail.com]
>
>
> It looks like my transmission is leaking at the seam with the cover on the
> right end of the case. In addition, my exhaust has numerous cracks from
> before the catalytic converter to the mufflers.
>
> Mitsu won't fix the transmission leak, they will only offer to replace it at
> a cost of $3200. They will repair the exhaust, but want $2000 for it!

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:56:42 -0700
From: "Dean" <dean@benzfamily.us>
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire wear

Gabe wrote:
> When you replace one tire, you should replace all tires. I am
> surprised they did that. Usually Discount will insist you replace all
> of them because the difference in tread height could cause problems
> with your differential.

While what Gabe says about the possible impact on differentials/VCU is true,
it is not necessary to replace all four tires in such a situation.

What is critical from a differential/VCU perspective is the circumference of
the tire. What is critical from a performance/handling perspective is tire
construction and tread.

If you were able to match the same brand/model of tire, I would have the new
one shaved down to the depth of the existing tires. This should make them
the same rolling circumference which is what is critical.

My girlfriend's WRX recently had a single tire slashed and we were able to
find one used for $20 with more tread, had it mounted, shaved and balanced
for another $30 at the one and only shaver in Reno, and it is like she has a
matched set again. We would have done the same with a new tire if we
couldn't find a used tire that was a perfect match.

It may be a challenge to find a local shop in the area with a shaver, but it
can be done. There is usually at least one in any reasonably large city.

Now if the single new tire is not the same brand/model as the other 3, then
they really did you a disservice. now in addition to possible differential
wear, your handling will not be consistent. In this case, I would definitely
go back and complain.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:09:08 -0600
From: Gabe Simoes <Gabe92RTTT@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire wear

I used to work at Disount Tire, and while I never saw the shaver in
use, we did have one. It is a sound idea, but the majority of the
time the owner had to purchase all new tires (probably a messed up
scheme to get $$$$). Either way I would definetly complain if the
tire isn't the same circumference.
Gabe Simoes

1992 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin Turbo

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Dean <dean@benzfamily.us>
Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:56 am
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire wear

> Gabe wrote:
> > When you replace one tire, you should replace all tires. I am
> > surprised they did that. Usually Discount will insist you
> replace all
> > of them because the difference in tread height could cause problems
> > with your differential.
>
> While what Gabe says about the possible impact on
> differentials/VCU is true,
> it is not necessary to replace all four tires in such a situation.
>
> What is critical from a differential/VCU perspective is the
> circumference of
> the tire. What is critical from a performance/handling perspective
> is tire
> construction and tread.
>
> If you were able to match the same brand/model of tire, I would
> have the new
> one shaved down to the depth of the existing tires. This should
> make them
> the same rolling circumference which is what is critical.
>
> My girlfriend's WRX recently had a single tire slashed and we were
> able to
> find one used for $20 with more tread, had it mounted, shaved and
> balancedfor another $30 at the one and only shaver in Reno, and it
> is like she has a
> matched set again. We would have done the same with a new tire if we
> couldn't find a used tire that was a perfect match.
>
> It may be a challenge to find a local shop in the area with a
> shaver, but it
> can be done. There is usually at least one in any reasonably large
> city.
> Now if the single new tire is not the same brand/model as the
> other 3, then
> they really did you a disservice. now in addition to possible
> differentialwear, your handling will not be consistent. In this
> case, I would definitely
> go back and complain.
>
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:21:52 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire wear

We've had this discussion before --- how much difference can there be
before the VCU is adversely affected ???? The consensus was that we
don't know. All used tires have different wear rates and patterns --- the
fronts will wear faster than the rears. We don't know when it becomes a
problem.

Tire shavers seem to be few and far between --- I flat spotted a couple of
near new tires a few years ago and was looking to make them round again.
I only found one place in Los Angles that did that stuff and they wouldn't
do a used tire --- rocks and grit in the tire screws up the cutters.

 Jim Berry
====================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabe Simoes" <Gabe92RTTT@comcast.net>

> I used to work at Disount Tire, and while I never saw the shaver in
> use, we did have one. It is a sound idea, but the majority of the
> time the owner had to purchase all new tires (probably a messed up
> scheme to get $$$$). Either way I would definetly complain if the
> tire isn't the same circumference.
> Gabe Simoes
>
> 1992 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin Turbo
>
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:26:10 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: tire wear

They're replacing it under the pro-rated plan, which is probably why
they're not pushing all 4. I guess the question that is still unanswered
is will a difference of 2.3mm be enough to be worried about, from both a
handling standpoint and a vcu lifespan point...

Thoughts?

Alex
'95 VR4

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Gabe Simoes
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:09 AM
To: Dean
Cc: Alex Pedenko; Team3S@team3s.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire wear

I used to work at Disount Tire, and while I never saw the shaver in
use, we did have one. It is a sound idea, but the majority of the
time the owner had to purchase all new tires (probably a messed up
scheme to get $$$$). Either way I would definetly complain if the
tire isn't the same circumference.
Gabe Simoes

1992 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin Turbo

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Dean <dean@benzfamily.us>
Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:56 am
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire wear

> Gabe wrote:
> > When you replace one tire, you should replace all tires. I am
> > surprised they did that. Usually Discount will insist you
> replace all
> > of them because the difference in tread height could cause problems
> > with your differential.
>
> While what Gabe says about the possible impact on
> differentials/VCU is true,
> it is not necessary to replace all four tires in such a situation.
>
> What is critical from a differential/VCU perspective is the
> circumference of
> the tire. What is critical from a performance/handling perspective
> is tire
> construction and tread.
>
> If you were able to match the same brand/model of tire, I would
> have the new
> one shaved down to the depth of the existing tires. This should
> make them
> the same rolling circumference which is what is critical.
>
> My girlfriend's WRX recently had a single tire slashed and we were
> able to
> find one used for $20 with more tread, had it mounted, shaved and
> balancedfor another $30 at the one and only shaver in Reno, and it
> is like she has a
> matched set again. We would have done the same with a new tire if we
> couldn't find a used tire that was a perfect match.
>
> It may be a challenge to find a local shop in the area with a
> shaver, but it
> can be done. There is usually at least one in any reasonably large
> city.
> Now if the single new tire is not the same brand/model as the
> other 3, then
> they really did you a disservice. now in addition to possible
> differentialwear, your handling will not be consistent. In this
> case, I would definitely
> go back and complain.
>
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:18:47 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Emissions in Atlanta Ga.

What does it fail ????

 Jim Berry
==============================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Williams, Tommy F" <WilliamsTF@bernstein.com>
To: <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 7:44 AM
Subject: Team3S: Emissions in Atlanta Ga.

> Can someone in Atlanta area help me out. My wonderful Stealth R/T has now
> found a new home in Atlanta. It seems to he having a problem passing
> emissions. The car runs great and I had absolutely no problems in New York.
>
> The car has K&N filter, DNP hard intake pipe, DNP Down Pipe, Borla exhaust
> with Toucan twin tips and a testpipe.com free-er flowing cat.
>
> Those are the only mods on the car other than a Quafe LSD.
>
> Why can't it pass emissions in ATL????????
>
> I put new plugs and wires on the car before delivering the car a week ago.
>
> Tommy
> -----------------------------------------
> The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the
use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this
message to the intended recipient, any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of
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responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions.
>
>
>
> *** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:45:38 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire wear

Here are some thoughts.

The worn tire will rotate maybe 0.7% faster depending on circumstances - assuming 245/45-18 tires with equal inflation and traction and 2.3 mm wear (less radius) on the worn tire.

If the smaller, worn tire is mounted in front, the open front differential is going to transfer torque (a little) to the slightly faster rotating worn tire. This will I think make the the front output shaft spin faster than the center output shaft. Any difference in speed between the front and center shafts will start to heat up the fluid in the center VCU. I have no idea though if this small ~0.7% difference in speed would be enough to heat the fluid substantially.

If the smaller, worn tire is mounted in back, the LSD (VCU) rear diff will be affected, transferring torque to the larger, unworn tire as if the worn tire were slipping slightly. The propeller shaft, and ultimately the center output shaft, will be rotating with respect to the larger, unworn tire (just like the front shaft would be). The center diff and its VCU should not be affected.

Does this sound right?

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Pedenko" <alex@kolosy.com>
To: "'Gabe Simoes'" <Gabe92RTTT@comcast.net>; "'Dean'" <dean@benzfamily.us>
Cc: <Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: tire wear

They're replacing it under the pro-rated plan, which is probably why
they're not pushing all 4. I guess the question that is still unanswered
is will a difference of 2.3mm be enough to be worried about, from both a
handling standpoint and a vcu lifespan point...

Thoughts?

Alex
'95 VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:14:03 -0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: tire wear

Definitely no problem. You would be lucky to notice any difference in
street
application. You're less likely to notice in the rear, but I would put
the
new tire on the corner that wears fastest, if you know that history with
your car.

Skyrider

- -----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pedenko [mailto:alex@kolosy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:26 AM
To: 'Gabe Simoes'; 'Dean'
Cc: Team3S@team3s.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: tire wear

They're replacing it under the pro-rated plan, which is probably why
they're not pushing all 4. I guess the question that is still unanswered
is will a difference of 2.3mm be enough to be worried about, from both a
handling standpoint and a vcu lifespan point...

Thoughts?

Alex
'95 VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:21:02 -0700
From: "Dean" <dean@benzfamily.us>
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire wear

Jeff Wrote:
> Here are some thoughts.
>
> The worn tire will rotate maybe 0.7% faster depending on circumstances -
assuming 245/45-18 tires with equal inflation and traction and 2.3 mm wear
(less radius) on the worn tire.
>
> If the smaller, worn tire is mounted in front, the open front differential
is going to transfer torque (a little) to the slightly faster rotating worn
tire. This will I think make the the front output shaft spin faster than the
center output shaft. Any difference in speed between the front and center
shafts will start to heat up the fluid in the center VCU. I have no idea
though if this small ~0.7% difference in speed would be enough to heat the
fluid substantially.
>
> If the smaller, worn tire is mounted in back, the LSD (VCU) rear diff will
be affected, transferring torque to the larger, unworn tire as if the worn
tire were slipping slightly. The propeller shaft, and ultimately the center
output shaft, will be rotating with respect to the larger, unworn tire (just
like the front shaft would be). The center diff and its VCU should not be
affected.
>
> Does this sound right?

Pretty much except the new tire is lager tire, not smaller as you describe,
so everything is backwards sort of. 8^)

If it were my tire, I'd get it shaved. yes tires wear differently, but that
is why you are supposed to rotate them, to minimize the differences.
Anything I can do to minimize driveline wear on our cars I would do.
Minimizing preload on either the rear LSD, or the center VCU no matter how
sight must be a good thing.

Also from a handling perspective, the contact patch of a new tire will be
different than one that is worn over 2mm. How significant is this, probably
not much, but some.

Again, If you can get it shaved, I would.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:30:15 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: tire wear

If shaving is not a viable option, I would mount this larger tire, on the
drivers side front corner due the fact with engine placement ETC... that
tire typically wears the fastest out of the four corners....

Just my personal observations...

Russ F
CT

- -----Original Message-----
From: Dean [mailto:dean@benzfamily.us]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:21 PM
To: Jeff Lucius; Team3S@team3s.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire wear

Jeff Wrote:
> Here are some thoughts.
>
> The worn tire will rotate maybe 0.7% faster depending on circumstances -
assuming 245/45-18 tires with equal inflation and traction and 2.3 mm wear
(less radius) on the worn tire.
>
> If the smaller, worn tire is mounted in front, the open front differential
is going to transfer torque (a little) to the slightly faster rotating worn
tire. This will I think make the the front output shaft spin faster than the
center output shaft. Any difference in speed between the front and center
shafts will start to heat up the fluid in the center VCU. I have no idea
though if this small ~0.7% difference in speed would be enough to heat the
fluid substantially.
>
> If the smaller, worn tire is mounted in back, the LSD (VCU) rear diff will
be affected, transferring torque to the larger, unworn tire as if the worn
tire were slipping slightly. The propeller shaft, and ultimately the center
output shaft, will be rotating with respect to the larger, unworn tire (just
like the front shaft would be). The center diff and its VCU should not be
affected.
>
> Does this sound right?

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or their designee, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies.

==============================================================================

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:33:45 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Transmission and Exhaust

yes, well, Califronia is a depressed economy ...

sorry for the typo - I was referring back to the $2000 estimate to repair the exhaust. It's still a bogus number.

Chuck

- -----Original Message-----
From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:26 AM
To: Willis, Charles E.; Michael, Sharon & Dashiell Rhoden; Team3S
Subject: Re: Team3S: Transmission and Exhaust

$2400 --- I guess so !!! You could get SS precat eliminators, downpipe, high flow cat
and SS cat back exhaust for $1700 plus install. That setup would replace everything
from the turbo back with stainless [ active exhaust will be eliminated ].

 Jim Berry
====================================================

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #216
***************************************