Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, July 29
2003 Volume 02 : Number
215
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:37:16 -0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Braking Problem
GR4SPD,
Did you check the runout as
suggested?
Check it off the car, then check it on the car. Were all the
mating
surfaces cleaned,
so no wobble introduced? No play in wheel
bearings?
You may want to swap tires around or remount to determine if
you have a
flat spotted
tire. If not too bad, it may only be noticed at
certain speed or braking
pressures.
Bleeding would not hurt if you
have not already done that.
Unfortunately, 70-80% of the time I have never
been able to get rid of
rotor warpage/wobble once generated. Several times
(various cars) it
actually turned out
to be worn tires.
Some on
the list have used shops which grind rather than turn rotors,
and I think
this
is better at preventing or eliminating
warpage.
Skyrider
- -----Original Message-----
From: cody
[mailto:overclck@satx.rr.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 4:49 PM
To:
'Grd4Spd Racing'; 'Team3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking
Problem
NEVER balance tires on the car! There is absolutely no
reason to do
this, and CAN/WILL harm drivetrain components...
-
-Cody
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
Behalf
> Of Grd4Spd Racing
>
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 3:55 PM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: RE:
Team3S: Braking Problem
>
> > Will somebody please advise what
the next step ought to be for
> > solving this vexing problem.
>
> i would check all your suspension connections, parts,
joints,
ect....thats
> were you problem will be....oh and put a good
alignment and high speed
(on
> the car) balancing on it.
>
> regards,
> terry
>
>
> "If it doesnt make you
go fast, we don't sell it"
> Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com>
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:44:13
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Braking Problem
>> I don't think having the same part
number proves anything
>> about the source of the
rotors.
Obviously (perhaps), when it comes to
Porterfield.
>> There are some brake pads from different sources
that follow
>> the same part numbering scheme. This is not
coincidental,
>> it allows different manufacturers to follow the same
part description.
Partly true. FMSI (Friction Materials Standards
Institute,
www.fmsi.org ) has a copyrighted
set of numbers they use. Mostly for brake pads that I could find. I did not find
one instance of a FMSI number for a rotor, not that this means they don't exist.
However, in every case, each manufacturer of a brake pad that said their pad
"matched " FMSI # whatever, used their own part numbering scheme to identify the
brake pad.
>> Porterfield doesn't want you to know the source of
their
>> rotors because then you might go there
directly.
Porterfield does not seem to mind identifying their pads as
being made by AP Racing.
Porterfield is a reseller, just like hundreds
of other stores and online shops. But apparently when it comes to rotors they do
not sell a "namebrand" product but rather attempt to rebadge or "unbadge" a
common product; somewhat similar to what Dyna-Batt, Stinger, Black Panther, and
Holley do with Hawker batteries, as an example.
For whatever reason, and
it is definitely not because of a FMSI number, Porterfield has chosen to use
Autospecialty's part numbering system to identify their rotors for at least
Mitsubishi and Toyota cars. Now I might understand why someone would adopt a
system from a major or well respected manufacturer. But why would they use a
system that suggests the parts are, well some of you guys at least are saying
it, perhaps substandard? It makes no sense at all.
If the rotors are not
made by Autospecialty then Porterfield is either misrepresenting the part or
they are showing a total lack of creativity in selecting a part numbering
system.
If the rotors are made by Autospecialty, who also claim (2 years
ago when I talked to them) that Brembo makes many of there "raw castings" but
that the raw castings for 3000GT/Stealth are made by a factory in Taiwan, then
Porterfield is still misrepresenting their product (unless of course the list of
manufacturers is the same as that used by Autospecialty, which could be true
after 2 years).
In any case, I would never use a Porterfield rotor, for
the simple reason that Porterfield is deceptive in marketing the product. If I
was in the market for an aftermarket stock-replacement-type rotor (say perhaps
to upgrade my '92 rear brakes to 1994+ type) I would buy Brembo (maybe to match
a set or Brembo "F50" kits for the front).
Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
To:
"Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>; <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday, July
28, 2003 11:13 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:50:48
-0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Braking Problem
Rich,
In all fairness you are probably
'kind' to your rotors due to
brake cooling and correct usage.
I
think many cars and driver style will cook cryo rotors easily.
A high HP
car, on street tires, trying to keep up with track tire cars,
will have to
slow down much more for corners.
Over driving will warp the rotors if not
recognized early.
Skyrider
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
merritt@cedar-rapids.net
[mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 9:36
PM
To: Wieschhaus, Brandon Kenneth (UMR-Student);
team3s@team3s.comSubject: RE: Team3S:
Braking Problem
At 10:37 PM 7/26/2003 -0500, Wieschhaus, Brandon
Kenneth (UMR-Student)
wrote:
>How is it that you go about getting your
rotors cryogenically treated
anyways?
I just go to a local shop,
Cryogenic Engineering, here in Cedar Rapids.
http://www.cryoeng.com, check the motorsports
section.
They make a "run" every couple of weeks for local racers, where
they
throw everything into the "soup" -- rotors, pads, engine parts,
nuts,
bolts, widgets, whatnots, crew chiefs, you name it. Rotors are $20
each.
Ya can't beat a cyrogenically treated rotor.
Not no way,
not no how.
> Perhaps if people can't hook-up w/ cryo capabilities in
their area,
> you'd
be willing to middle-man for them?
You
could probably ship rotors to them for treatment.
To save on shipping, ask
mitsupartsdirect.com to ship new rotors
directly to CE. That'll save on one
of the shipping costs. It'll be $90
for a new rotor plus $20 for treatment
plus shipping to CE plus shipping
to you. Or just buy treated rotors from
Porterfield. It'd probably work
out about the same.
I can't believe
that lil ol' backwards Cedar Rapids (it's not exactly
the end of the world,
but you can see it from here) has a cryo shop and
nobody else does. Ask your
local roundy round guys where they
go.
Rich
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:47:52
-0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Braking Problem
> If the rotors are not made by
Autospecialty then Porterfield is either misrepresenting the part or they are
showing a total lack of creativity in selecting a part numbering system.
-
---
Or why re-invent the wheel? If they started with AS hardware,why
not..if
a product is no longer sourced from AS..why change?
> If the rotors are made by Autospecialty, who also claim (2
years ago when I talked to them) that Brembo makes many of there "raw castings"
but that the raw castings for 3000GT/Stealth are made by a factory in Taiwan,
then Porterfield is still misrepresenting their product (unless of course the
list of manufacturers is the same as that used by Autospecialty, which could be
true after 2 years).
- ---
I dont follow the misrepresentation
thread. Just me..
> In any case, I would never use a Porterfield
rotor, for the simple reason that Porterfield is deceptive in marketing the
product. If I was in the market for an aftermarket stock-replacement-type rotor
(say perhaps to upgrade my '92 rear brakes to 1994+ type) I would buy Brembo
(maybe to match a set or Brembo "F50" kits for the front).
- ---
While
thats your choice, its your choice to make such claims that they
misrepresent
and practice deceptive marketing. Dangerous claims...even if
they are
your personal POV.
For the record, I do sell PF, I dunno what they
actually are as long as
the quality remians where Ive come to expect
it. Ive never been faced
with a reason to second-source, and unless one
presents itself that makes
good business sense, I wont be. In the odd
case where someone says "I
Just HAVE to have Baer..I call
Baer..etc.
> Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>
To: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>; <
Team3S@team3s.com>
> Sent: Monday,
July 28, 2003 11:13 AM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have
it!"
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:50:11
-0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
Check the mating of the rotor to the hub
surface.
Some people have found inconsistencies with the point where the
hub
intersects with the hub FACE. Theres a chamfer inside the rotor hat
at
this point.
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Williams, Tommy F
wrote:
> If I could bring this discussion back to it's original focal
point for a
> moment :-), my problem may or may not be related to the
rotors at this
> point. Since replacing them with another pair of
PowerStops, I mentioned
> that I still have a little shake being felt
through the steering wheel
> between 35-45 MPH.
>
>
I'm also reminded that the reason I "upgraded" the brake hardware to
begin
> with was because I thought I had warped rotors.
>
>
Could it be that the rotors are not the problem here at all and never
was?
> If I could get your collective brain power to focus on other
potential
> causes of this problem that would be great. All I know
for certain is that
> I do have a little play in my steering that I
believe to be signs of an
> aging Rack.
>
>
> Go for
it guys........
>
> Tommy
> 1996 VR-4
> 65K
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Mohler
[mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 2:48
PM
> To: Jeff Lucius
> Cc:
Team3S@team3s.com> Subject: Re:
Team3S: Braking Problem
>
>
> > If the rotors are not
made by Autospecialty then Porterfield is either
> misrepresenting the
part or they are showing a total lack of creativity in
> selecting a part
numbering system.
> ---
> Or why re-invent the wheel? If they
started with AS hardware,why not..if
> a product is no longer sourced from
AS..why change?
>
> > If the rotors are made by
Autospecialty, who also claim (2 years ago when
> I talked to them) that
Brembo makes many of there "raw castings" but that
> the raw castings for
3000GT/Stealth are made by a factory in Taiwan, then
> Porterfield is
still misrepresenting their product (unless of course the
> list of
manufacturers is the same as that used by Autospecialty, which could
> be
true after 2 years).
> ---
> I dont follow the misrepresentation
thread. Just me..
>
> > In any case, I would never use a
Porterfield rotor, for the simple reason
> that Porterfield is deceptive
in marketing the product. If I was in the
> market for an aftermarket
stock-replacement-type rotor (say perhaps to
> upgrade my '92 rear brakes
to 1994+ type) I would buy Brembo (maybe to match
> a set or Brembo "F50"
kits for the front).
> ---
> While thats your choice, its your
choice to make such claims that they
> misrepresent and practice deceptive
marketing. Dangerous claims...even if
> they are your personal
POV.
>
>
> For the record, I do sell PF, I dunno what they
actually are as long as
> the quality remians where Ive come to expect
it. Ive never been faced
> with a reason to second-source, and
unless one presents itself that makes
> good business sense, I wont
be. In the odd case where someone says "I
> Just HAVE to have
Baer..I call Baer..etc.
>
>
> > Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Willis, Charles
E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>
> To: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>; <
Team3S@team3s.com>
> > Sent:
Monday, July 28, 2003 11:13 AM
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking
Problem
> >
> > *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
> >
>
> ---
>
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler
orders@speedtoys.com>
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
> parts for Toyota,
Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
> Where do you buy YOUR
brakes? I can help...asking is free! :)
> "If its in stock, we
have it!"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
> -----------------------------------------
> The information
contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential
information and is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If
you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for
delivering this message to the intended recipient, any review, dissemination,
distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply
e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Please note that we do
not accept account orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and therefore will not
be responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions.
>
>
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have
it!"
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:49:26
-0400
From: "Williams, Tommy F" <
WilliamsTF@bernstein.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
If I could bring this discussion back to it's
original focal point for a
moment :-), my problem may or may not be related
to the rotors at this
point. Since replacing them with another pair of
PowerStops, I mentioned
that I still have a little shake being felt through
the steering wheel
between 35-45 MPH.
I'm also reminded that
the reason I "upgraded" the brake hardware to begin
with was because I
thought I had warped rotors.
Could it be that the rotors are not the
problem here at all and never was?
If I could get your collective brain power
to focus on other potential
causes of this problem that would be great.
All I know for certain is that
I do have a little play in my steering that I
believe to be signs of an
aging Rack.
Go for it
guys........
Tommy
1996 VR-4
65K
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler [mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
Sent:
Monday, July 28, 2003 2:48 PM
To: Jeff Lucius
Cc:
Team3S@team3s.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
Braking Problem
> If the rotors are not made by Autospecialty then
Porterfield is either
misrepresenting the part or they are showing a total
lack of creativity in
selecting a part numbering system.
- ---
Or why
re-invent the wheel? If they started with AS hardware,why not..if
a
product is no longer sourced from AS..why change?
> If
the rotors are made by Autospecialty, who also claim (2 years ago when
I
talked to them) that Brembo makes many of there "raw castings" but that
the
raw castings for 3000GT/Stealth are made by a factory in Taiwan,
then
Porterfield is still misrepresenting their product (unless of course
the
list of manufacturers is the same as that used by Autospecialty, which
could
be true after 2 years).
- ---
I dont follow the misrepresentation
thread. Just me..
> In any case, I would never use a Porterfield
rotor, for the simple reason
that Porterfield is deceptive in marketing the
product. If I was in the
market for an aftermarket stock-replacement-type
rotor (say perhaps to
upgrade my '92 rear brakes to 1994+ type) I would buy
Brembo (maybe to match
a set or Brembo "F50" kits for the front).
-
---
While thats your choice, its your choice to make such claims that
they
misrepresent and practice deceptive marketing. Dangerous
claims...even if
they are your personal POV.
For the record, I do
sell PF, I dunno what they actually are as long as
the quality remians where
Ive come to expect it. Ive never been faced
with a reason to
second-source, and unless one presents itself that makes
good business sense,
I wont be. In the odd case where someone says "I
Just HAVE to have
Baer..I call Baer..etc.
> Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>
To: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>; <
Team3S@team3s.com>
> Sent: Monday,
July 28, 2003 11:13 AM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have
it!"
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
- -----------------------------------------
The information contained
in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information and is
intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the
intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this
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intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and
destroy all copies of the original message. Please note that we do not accept
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responsible for carrying out such orders and/or
instructions.
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:59:39
-0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Braking Problem
How about bad inner tie rods? That will
feel like play in the steering and an aging rack.
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Williams, Tommy F
[mailto:WilliamsTF@bernstein.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 3:49 PM
To:
'Geoff Mohler'; Jeff Lucius
Cc:
Team3S@team3s.comSubject: RE: Team3S:
Braking Problem
Importance: High
If I could bring this discussion
back to it's original focal point for a
moment :-), my problem may or may not
be related to the rotors at this
point. Since replacing them with
another pair of PowerStops, I mentioned
that I still have a little shake
being felt through the steering wheel
between 35-45 MPH.
I'm
also reminded that the reason I "upgraded" the brake hardware to begin
with
was because I thought I had warped rotors.
Could it be that the rotors
are not the problem here at all and never was?
If I could get your collective
brain power to focus on other potential
causes of this problem that would be
great. All I know for certain is that
I do have a little play in my
steering that I believe to be signs of an
aging Rack.
Above
email is for intended recipient only and may be confidential and protected by
attorney/client privilege.
If you are not the intended recipient, please
advise the sender immediately.
Unauthorized use or distribution is prohibited
and may be unlawful.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:02:53
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
Have you replaced the front hub/bearing
assemblies yet? They seem to last about 70K miles or so.
Also, have
all the wheel/tires checked for dynamic balance. You kight have a dented
wheel rim or a tire that is out of round (flatspotted).
Chuck
Willis
- -----Original Message-----
From: Williams, Tommy F
[mailto:WilliamsTF@bernstein.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 2:49 PM
To:
'Geoff Mohler'; Jeff Lucius
Cc:
Team3S@team3s.comSubject: RE: Team3S:
Braking Problem
Importance: High
If I could bring this discussion
back to it's original focal point for a
moment :-), my problem may or may not
be related to the rotors at this
point. Since replacing them with
another pair of PowerStops, I mentioned
that I still have a little shake
being felt through the steering wheel
between 35-45 MPH.
I'm
also reminded that the reason I "upgraded" the brake hardware to begin
with
was because I thought I had warped rotors.
Could it be that the rotors
are not the problem here at all and never was?
If I could get your collective
brain power to focus on other potential
causes of this problem that would be
great. All I know for certain is that
I do have a little play in my
steering that I believe to be signs of an
aging Rack.
Go for it
guys........
Tommy
1996 VR-4
65K
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:03:22
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
At 02:50 PM 7/28/2003 -0400, Zobel, Kurt D
wrote:
>Rich,
>
>In all fairness you are probably 'kind' to
your rotors due to
>brake cooling and correct usage.
>
It is
certainly true that learning the proper way to brake makes many
brake
problems disappear, from warped rotors to boiled brake fluid. It's
why
Chuck Willis can get by with stock calipers.
Rich
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:19:18
-0400
From: "Williams, Tommy F" <
WilliamsTF@bernstein.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
I've checked all of the wheels and
tires. I actually replaced two wheels
that I had the PermaStar
treatment applied to and I still have the same
behavior.
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E.
[mailto:cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 4:03
PM
To: Williams, Tommy F; Geoff Mohler; Jeff Lucius
Cc:
Team3S@team3s.comSubject: RE: Team3S:
Braking Problem
Have you replaced the front hub/bearing assemblies
yet? They seem to last
about 70K miles or so.
Also, have all the
wheel/tires checked for dynamic balance. You kight have
a dented wheel
rim or a tire that is out of round (flatspotted).
Chuck Willis
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Williams, Tommy F
[mailto:WilliamsTF@bernstein.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 2:49 PM
To:
'Geoff Mohler'; Jeff Lucius
Cc:
Team3S@team3s.comSubject: RE: Team3S:
Braking Problem
Importance: High
If I could bring this discussion
back to it's original focal point for a
moment :-), my problem may or may not
be related to the rotors at this
point. Since replacing them with
another pair of PowerStops, I mentioned
that I still have a little shake
being felt through the steering wheel
between 35-45 MPH.
I'm
also reminded that the reason I "upgraded" the brake hardware to begin
with
was because I thought I had warped rotors.
Could it be that the rotors
are not the problem here at all and never was?
If I could get your collective
brain power to focus on other potential
causes of this problem that would be
great. All I know for certain is that
I do have a little play in my
steering that I believe to be signs of an
aging Rack.
Go for it
guys........
Tommy
1996 VR-4
65K
-
-----------------------------------------
The information contained in this
transmission may contain privileged and confidential information and is intended
only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended
recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to
the intended recipient, any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication
of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all
copies of the original message. Please note that we do not accept account orders
and/or instructions by e-mail, and therefore will not be responsible for
carrying out such orders and/or instructions.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:31:17
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
PermaStar treatment?
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Williams, Tommy F
[mailto:WilliamsTF@bernstein.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 3:19 PM
To:
Willis, Charles E.; Williams, Tommy F; Geoff Mohler; Jeff Lucius
Cc:
Team3S@team3s.comSubject: RE: Team3S:
Braking Problem
I've checked all of the wheels and tires. I
actually replaced two wheels
that I had the PermaStar treatment applied to
and I still have the same
behavior.
- -
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:44:52
-0700
From: "Guy, Michael (CS)" <
michael.guy@ngc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Braking Problem
I don't know if this would affect it as well, but
I've had this happen once.
Are all of your wheel weights in the
correctplace?
Did you loose one?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:50:06
-0400
From: "Ved" <
1994TT@comcast.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Should I go with the stock valves????
Today I called the shop where I am
getting my cylinder heads done and the
guy told me that he could not find any
after market valves for my 94 TT. He
said that he could have them custom made
but it would cost $1500.
What do I do, do I go with the stock valves or
is there a company that sells
better valves. Also, how much power can the
stock valves take before they
start burning.
Thanks a
lot??
VEd
1994 Yellow TT.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:57:16
-0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Should I go with the stock valves????
Depends..custom valves
are the way to go for like 700Hp or so, or if you
want lightweight
hardware.
Short of plans like those..stock'ers are just fine.
On
Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Ved wrote:
> Today I called the shop where I am
getting my cylinder heads done and the
> guy told me that he could not
find any after market valves for my 94 TT. He
> said that he could have
them custom made but it would cost $1500.
>
> What do I do, do I go
with the stock valves or is there a company that sells
> better valves.
Also, how much power can the stock valves take before they
> start
burning.
>
> Thanks a lot??
>
> VEd
>
>
1994 Yellow TT.
>
>
>
>
>
> ***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have
it!"
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:05:30
-0700 (PDT)
From:
chfmn@webtv.net
(Walter Womack)
Subject: Team3S: Hours
Best guess at R&R transaxle
with all the proper tools and assists.How
many hours? Best quote from a shop
has been 9hrs.Was told that the
suspension had to be taken apart and dropped
and that was the reason for
9hrs.Also am buying a tranny from Kormex.Have a
lot of grinding going on
between 1rst and 2nd and sometimes 2nd and
third.Kormex wants to sell me
a tranny&transfer case package.Just got a
recall letter from Chry/Dmlr
for the recall but my TC doesn't leak or have
any other problem I know
of.I am the second owner so there is the chance that
it may have
already been replaced by the previous.
It's just that 9hrs
sounds a little steep to me for a dealership.If I
did it ,it would probably
take 2 weeks.It's just too damn hot here in
Las Vegas.
Anyway;as long as
they have it torn down,is there anything you would
recomend to be looked at
or changed while they have it up on the rack?
Thank you for your
advise.
92 Dodge Stealth. 105k
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:59:52
-0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Colder spark plugs
Ok I'm thinkin its time to go to some colder
plugs, did a little research
and found that the stockers are a heat range
6. Jeff's page shows that
there are 2 plugs available in a
5:
NGK BCPR5ES and BCPR5ES-11
NGK BKR5ES and BKR5ES-11
http://www.stealth316.com/2-sparkplugxref.htmWell,
I guess actually that's 4. Can anyone tell me what the difference
is
between them, and whether I should stay with NGK Platinum's (right?) or
go
to Iridium or the sort. My goal is to eliminate the knock I'm
getting but
still maintain the 22-25mpg I get with my
baby.
Thanks!
Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT
FIPK, HKS
Dual Exhaust
AVC-R (19psi), Triad Alky Injection
Improved
Precats
Greddy S BOV
98/99 coolant tank
Krankvents
DN Performance
Y-pipe
Digital Tuning Pocketlogger
6 speed conversion, RPS Stage
II
Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight 17"
SS brake lines, DOT5.1
fluid
Slotted/Dimpled Rotors
007KEN spark plug plate, license
plates
ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
Aiwa MP3 Stereo
Phantom Radar
Jammer
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:34:52
-0400
From: James Matherly <
jemather@umich.edu>
Subject: Team3S:
Pulling ABS codes
I have had my ABS light on since I got my '92 TT about
a month ago, and
I'd like to try and get it fixed. I have the shop manuals,
but even
after reading the section about the ABS in great detail I am still
confused as hell.
Is there any easy way to get fault codes from the ABS
system? It seems
like there should be, since it's nice enough to tell
me there's a
problem somewhere. I'm concerned because I seem to notice
that the
brake bias is going mostly to the front right tire. I have
locked the
front right tire completely out of the blue, not even on an
emergency
stop, several times, and I don't think creating a whole bunch of
flat
spots on my tire.
Regards,
Ted Matherly
jemather@umich.edu'92 Stealth
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:04:27
-0400
From: Roger Lee <
rcleeny@optonline.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Pulling ABS codes
I just finished replacing the Hydraulic
Unit on my '94 FWD Stealth (not a
job I want to do again). I had to
take it to the dealer to read the codes.
They said the right rear sensor was
bad (wrong) and the motor relay was bad
(sort of wrong). It was the
pump motor.
The manual implies one-sided braking could be a problem in
the HU (clogged
line or stuck solenoid). A new HU from local Dodge
dealer is $2,975 +
tax!!! Look for a used one.
By the way if
anybody knows how to read or send the ABS codes, please let
me
know. I'm about ready to start the project of building a diagnostic
tool
for the 94/95 models.
Roger
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "James Matherly" <
jemather@umich.edu>
To: <
team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday, July
28, 2003 8:34 PM
Subject: Team3S: Pulling ABS codes
> I have
had my ABS light on since I got my '92 TT about a month ago, and
> I'd
like to try and get it fixed. I have the shop manuals, but even
> after
reading the section about the ABS in great detail I am still
> confused as
hell.
> Is there any easy way to get fault codes from the ABS
system? It seems
> like there should be, since it's nice enough to
tell me there's a
> problem somewhere. I'm concerned because I seem
to notice that the
> brake bias is going mostly to the front right
tire. I have locked the
> front right tire completely out of the
blue, not even on an emergency
> stop, several times, and I don't think
creating a whole bunch of flat
> spots on my tire.
>
>
Regards,
> Ted Matherly
>
jemather@umich.edu> '92 Stealth
TT
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:01:21
-0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Colder spark plugs
BTW, I just went and pulled my front 3
plugs... guess what!? White. Clean,
but white. From the
spark plug tech diagram, that means too hot! So colder
it is. Any
help with picking a good plug?
Ken
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
To: "Team3S
Questions (E-mail)" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday, July
28, 2003 7:59 PM
Subject: Team3S: Colder spark plugs
> Ok I'm
thinkin its time to go to some colder plugs, did a little research
> and
found that the stockers are a heat range 6. Jeff's page shows that
>
there are 2 plugs available in a 5:
>
> NGK BCPR5ES and
BCPR5ES-11
> NGK BKR5ES and BKR5ES-11
>
>
http://www.stealth316.com/2-sparkplugxref.htm>
>
Well, I guess actually that's 4. Can anyone tell me what the
difference
is
> between them, and whether I should stay with NGK
Platinum's (right?) or go
> to Iridium or the sort. My goal is to
eliminate the knock I'm getting but
> still maintain the 22-25mpg I get
with my baby.
>
> Thanks!
> Ken Stanton
> 91 Pearl White
Stealth TT
> FIPK, HKS Dual Exhaust
> AVC-R (19psi), Triad Alky
Injection
> Improved Precats
> Greddy S BOV
> 98/99 coolant
tank
> Krankvents
> DN Performance Y-pipe
> Digital Tuning
Pocketlogger
> 6 speed conversion, RPS Stage II
> Cusco Rear Strut
Bar, Konig Flight 17"
> SS brake lines, DOT5.1 fluid
>
Slotted/Dimpled Rotors
> 007KEN spark plug plate, license plates
>
ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
> Aiwa MP3 Stereo
> Phantom Radar
Jammer
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:14:08
-0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
> One of our own list members
> had
his center diff replaced by a company due to damage caused by
this.
experience and talent with dynamic (on car) balancing is essential,
its a
lost art form, there is good art and there is bad art.
:)
the shop that preps my cars as well as many other high performance
street
and race cars have been performing this type of balancing (on car) for
many
years and many race cars, really its the only way to properly fine tune
the
balance of the cars wheels and tires, been there done that.
>
There is just no need to do this.
balancing a whole rotating mass is much
better engineering than balancing a
single componet of a system and trusting
that the other componets are
balanced one should do this whenever possible,
this is basic, sound
engineering pratice.
> So
> long as
everything is bolted to the hub correctly, nothing can go wrong
> between
a standard balancing machine and a "on the car" balancer...
one should
not make assumptions when it come to stresses associated with
high speeds,
balance the wheel on the car.
> nothing can go wrong
> between a
standard balancing machine and a "on the car" balancer...
static
balancing (machine) is suitable for normal street driven cars, not so
high
performance street/track cars.
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt
make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:35:45
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Colder spark plugs
Or just running lean --- What is the affect of the
alcohol ???
What does the logger show
???
Jim
Berry
=========================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
To: "Team3S
Questions (E-mail)" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday, July
28, 2003 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Colder spark plugs
> BTW,
I just went and pulled my front 3 plugs... guess what!? White.
Clean,
> but white. From the spark plug tech diagram, that means too
hot! So colder
> it is. Any help with picking a good
plug?
>
> Ken
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
> To:
"Team3S Questions (E-mail)" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
> Sent: Monday,
July 28, 2003 7:59 PM
> Subject: Team3S: Colder spark plugs
>
>
> > Ok I'm thinkin its time to go to some colder plugs, did a
little research
> > and found that the stockers are a heat range
6. Jeff's page shows that
> > there are 2 plugs available in a
5:
> >
> > NGK BCPR5ES and BCPR5ES-11
> > NGK BKR5ES
and BKR5ES-11
> >
> >
http://www.stealth316.com/2-sparkplugxref.htm>
>
> > Well, I guess actually that's 4. Can anyone tell me what
the difference
> is
> > between them, and whether I should stay
with NGK Platinum's (right?) or go
> > to Iridium or the sort. My
goal is to eliminate the knock I'm getting but
> > still maintain the
22-25mpg I get with my baby.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Ken
Stanton
> > 91 Pearl White Stealth TT
> > FIPK, HKS Dual
Exhaust
> > AVC-R (19psi), Triad Alky Injection
> > Improved
Precats
> > Greddy S BOV
> > 98/99 coolant tank
> >
Krankvents
> > DN Performance Y-pipe
> > Digital Tuning
Pocketlogger
> > 6 speed conversion, RPS Stage II
> > Cusco
Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight 17"
> > SS brake lines, DOT5.1
fluid
> > Slotted/Dimpled Rotors
> > 007KEN spark plug plate,
license plates
> > ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
> > Aiwa MP3
Stereo
> > Phantom Radar Jammer
> >
> >
> >
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
> >
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:41:01
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Braking Problem
The MOST advanced balancing machine available is
an off the car
balancer. It tests road force variances, rim run out,
etc. It is my
opinion that this is more important than having a
perfectly balanced
assembly. A tire can have different characteristics
around the outer
diameter of it. It is very important that this is
matched to the wheel
specifically. Again, more important than a few
grams of weight. Look
into it if you haven't already. Any proper
fitment for a vehicle will
include hub centering rings, if the wheel isn't
hubcentric from the
factory to start. With a hub centric assembly,
there is virtually no
way to mount a wheel wrong, or off center.
And like I previously stated, axles aren't big enough diameter to
cause
a vibration, and rotors are balanced separately as well...
Also, your terms are incorrect. Static balancing is the
balancing
method of using one single plane of balancing weights.
Dynamic
balancing uses two planes, towards the outermost and innermost edges
of
the wheel. Both can be done on the car or off.
-
-Cody
> static balancing (machine) is suitable for normal street
driven cars,
not
> so
> high performance street/track
cars.
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:27:14
-0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
> Rotors that we furnish are usually
Brembo, Bradi, ATE, or American made.
> Although I cannot guarantee which
you will recieve.
Bradi is made by Brembo its their sister/commercial
company, excellent
quality....with Brembo you simply pay for "Brembo" as
there is alot of money
spent on that name. :)
the rotor business
is "funny", i will not go into that here/now, but i will
say that core rotors
from canada, japan, germany or italy are the finest
ones you will find. they
are of excellent quality materials and
craftsmanship. if you purchase
whatever "Name" and the castings come from
any of those countries you are in
good company.
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go
fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:52:25
-0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
on the car balancing is the proper way to
balance the car, period.
you and i will continue to disagree and
battle/discuss our point(s) however
i will stop here. thanx for your input.
:)
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't
sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:06:59
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Braking Problem
Just answer the simple question, does or does "on
the car balancing"
test for wheel / tire run out???
Can it do
this:
http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/product.htm-
-Cody
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
Behalf
> Of Grd4Spd Racing
>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 9:52 PM
> To: 'Team3S'
> Subject: RE:
Team3S: Braking Problem
>
> on the car balancing is the proper way
to balance the car, period.
>
> you and i will continue to disagree
and battle/discuss our point(s)
> however
> i will stop here. thanx
for your input. :)
>
> regards,
> terry
>
>
> "If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't sell it"
> Grd4Spd
Racing -
www.grd4spd.com>
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:08:38
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Braking Problem
How do they do it on car with AWD --- as pointed out by
Cody earlier you can't
just start spinning a wheel without concern for the
VCU's.
Jim
Berry
===================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
To:
"'Team3S'" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday, July
28, 2003 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
> on the
car balancing is the proper way to balance the car, period.
>
> you
and i will continue to disagree and battle/discuss our point(s) however
>
i will stop here. thanx for your input. :)
>
> regards,
>
terry
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:23:28
-0400
From: David Friedlander <
forzion@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Pulling ABS codes
Roger;
Better yet, try SIA Electronics
(Tilden, IL) (
http://www.siaelec.com/),
who will
rebuild VR4 ABS hydraulic units for $490 (+shipping) with a 1 year
warranty. My
son's '91 received it's rebuilt unit back completely refurbished
and looking
better than new. Sure beats the Mitsu new price! SIA takes ONE
day to rebuild
and return the unit!
Dave Friedlander
'94
SL
Roger Lee wrote:
> I just finished replacing the
Hydraulic Unit on my '94 FWD Stealth (not a
> job I want to do
again). I had to take it to the dealer to read the codes.
> They
said the right rear sensor was bad (wrong) and the motor relay was bad
>
(sort of wrong). It was the pump motor.
>
> The manual implies
one-sided braking could be a problem in the HU (clogged
> line or stuck
solenoid). A new HU from local Dodge dealer is $2,975 +
>
tax!!! Look for a used one.
>
> By the way if anybody knows
how to read or send the ABS codes, please let
> me know. I'm
about ready to start the project of building a diagnostic tool
> for the
94/95 models.
>
> Roger
>
> ----- Original Message
-----
> From: "James Matherly" <
jemather@umich.edu>
> To: <
team3s@team3s.com>
> Sent: Monday,
July 28, 2003 8:34 PM
> Subject: Team3S: Pulling ABS codes
>
>
> I have had my ABS light on since I got my '92 TT about a month ago,
and
> > I'd like to try and get it fixed. I have the shop manuals, but
even
> > after reading the section about the ABS in great detail I am
still
> > confused as hell.
> > Is there any easy way to get
fault codes from the ABS system? It seems
> > like there should
be, since it's nice enough to tell me there's a
> > problem
somewhere. I'm concerned because I seem to notice that the
> >
brake bias is going mostly to the front right tire. I have locked
the
> > front right tire completely out of the blue, not even on an
emergency
> > stop, several times, and I don't think creating a whole
bunch of flat
> > spots on my tire.
> >
> >
Regards,
> > Ted Matherly
> >
jemather@umich.edu> > '92 Stealth
TT
> >
> >
> > *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:26:44
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Pulling ABS codes
At 08:34 PM 7/28/2003 -0400, James Matherly
wrote:
>I have had my ABS light on since I got my '92 TT about a month
ago, and
>I'd like to try and get it fixed. I have the shop manuals, but
even
>after reading the section about the ABS in great detail I am still
>confused as hell.
>Is there any easy way to get fault codes from
the ABS system?
Can't answer your question about the codes, but
try this: Check the
fuse/circuit breaker. If it is bad, or removed, the ABS
light will stay on.
As you look at the big fuse box to the left of the
radiator, the CB is in
the lower LH corner (toward the tire). You have to
take out two studs that
hold it in. Look at the outside of the fuse box: one
stud is on the tire
side of the box, the other on the passenger side (or
around there
somewhere. It's fairly obvious which two they are). They are
easy enough to
remove. A 10mm socket will get them, as I recall.
If
the CB is missing, then I suspect that the ABS pump was running
continuously,
and that's why the previous owner took out the CB. So replace
the CB with a
new one.
Now, two things can happen:
One, the ABS light goes
out, and you are in business.
Two, the ABS pump runs continuously. If that
happens, take out the CB and
come back. Might have a solution for that, too.
If the CB is present, check it. If it's bad, replace it, and you should
be
back in business.
If it's OK, then try this: Take it out, and leave
it out for a week. The
ABS won't work now, but sometimes it will reset
itself. Our ABS is really
weird and tempermental, and sometimes just cycling
the ABS will fix it.
After a week, put the CB back in. Maybe it will work all
by itself again. I
know mine did.
Rich/slow old
poop
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:56:52
-0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
It Depends(tm) which level of perfect you
wish.
A tire under no load will not balance the same as a tire under
load. A
tire under no load will not exhibit out of roundnes issues the
same as no
load..etc.
Neither way is "wrong" in the hands of an expert
with the right hardware,
but each solve balancing in different ways that the
other cannot by
itself.
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Grd4Spd Racing
wrote:
> on the car balancing is the proper way to balance the car,
period.
>
> you and i will continue to disagree and battle/discuss
our point(s) however
> i will stop here. thanx for your input. :)
>
> regards,
> terry
>
>
> "If it doesnt make you
go fast, we don't sell it"
> Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com>
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have
it!"
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:57:40
-0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Braking Problem
Nah..that wont hurt it. Just raise the
whole car.
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, fastmax wrote:
> How do they do
it on car with AWD --- as pointed out by Cody earlier you can't
> just
start spinning a wheel without concern for the VCU's.
>
> Jim Berry
>
===================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
> To:
"'Team3S'" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
> Sent: Monday,
July 28, 2003 7:52 PM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
>
>
> > on the car balancing is the proper way to balance the
car, period.
> >
> > you and i will continue to disagree and
battle/discuss our point(s) however
> > i will stop here. thanx for
your input. :)
> >
> > regards,
> > terry
>
>
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler
orders@speedtoys.comTeam3S/3Si.org
Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW,
Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes? I can
help...asking is free! :)
"If its in stock, we have
it!"
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:13:56
-0400
From: "Sergiy Lyuznyy" <
svl@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: AC
and stalling out
I got exactly the same problem with my car at about a
year ago.
This was cured by replacing two hoses, feeding breake &
clutch vacuum
busters (the valves were leaking) and PCV valve. Steering
system pressure
switch & electric load switch were fixed
too.
ISC/IAC servo is fine if it shows 28 Ohm. resistance for each of
four coils.
The computer constantly monitoring sensors sending, if
needed, pulse
sequence to the ISC stepper, saying to open or to close,
depending on
situation. The trick is - it is using stored numbers, calculated
by
developpers, which were based on math model for processes in the
intake
maniford. With time, because of wear and tear, resulting in
vacuum/pressure
leack, the real statement differs, sometimes significantly.
As the result
computer gets creasy in not knowing which direction and for how
many clicks
rotate ISC to stabilize idle. Some calibration routines are
presented, but
for sure not all situations are covered. This might get even
worse if some
sensors are not working properly.
Computer memory reset
is a must after all repairs are done.
P.S. AC, being on, might cure
situation by sending 'AC load switch' signal
to the computer this way letting
him to recalibrate.
94 Stealth TT
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Stephen C. Kempf" <
kempfsc@mail.auburn.edu>
To:
"Team 3S List" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Monday, July 28, 2003 11:40 AM
Subject: Team3S: AC and stalling
out
> Thanks to everyone for past advice on my Stealth. I've run
into another
> problem and before taking it in for service wanted to see
if I could get
> some feedback so I have a better idea about what I'm
talking about when I
> discuss it with the mechanic at the shop I go
to.
>
> The car has 83,000 miles on it and it did have its 60,000
mile service
> (though that's a story in itself and something that
comments from members
> of this group were a BIG help on). At any rate,
I've recently started
> having problems with the car stalling out while
idling. This problem
> appears to be somehow tied in with the air
conditioning (which still does
> a great job of cooling). If the air
conditioning is turned off the idle is
> fine and the engine idles at 1000
rpm which is where its always been up
> until this problem started. When
the AC is turned on, the idle drops to
> 600-700 rpm. As I drive with the
AC on, when I come to a stop the idle
> sometimes fluctuates up and down
between almost zero rpm and 500-600 rpm.
> At this point, the engine
sometimes stalls. I can sometimes get this to
> happen when the car
is sitting at idle with the AC on and I goose the
> engine. As the rpms
settle back down the fluctuation occurs and seems to
> be in sink with the
fan relay clicking on and off (when you stand outside
> the car while
someone does this you can hear a loud clack and the fans
> come on). This
does not occur if the AC is turned off.
>
> It seems as though the
AC is dragging, i.e. putting more load on the
> engine than it should. I
suppose that this might be an indication that the
> AC compressor (which
has never been replaced, its still running on the old
> type Freon
actually the replacement for it) is on its last legs and about
> to crap
out, but I dont have enough experience to know if this is a
> possibility
or not.
>
> Any advice will be appreciated.
>
>
Steve
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:33:52
+1200
From: "Wayne Thomas" <
waynethomas@quicksilver.net.nz>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: MSD Ignition Coils
Erik,
I'm considering carrying out this
mod myself (due to your glowing
reports), but have a question. Are the
replacement termination and
rubber boot part of the coil package, or are they
separate items? If
they are separate, who produces them and what are
the part numbers?
Delayed reaction, I know, but I have had other projects
underway.
Cheers
Wayne
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Gross, Erik
Sent: Wednesday,
2 July 2003 6:58 a.m.
To: Jim Floyd;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: MSD Ignition Coils WAS: Acell coils and
spark
blowout
By popular request, you can find my pictures
here:
http://www.team3s.com/~egross/Temp/coilsNote
that this is a temporary page until I have time to do the writeup,
so if
you're looking at this in the archives a few months from now, it
may not be
at the above URL.
As for whether I will be selling this as a kit, at this
point, no. I'll
provide my web page with detailed instructions on how
to do it, but, at
least if you want to use the stock bracket, there is a bit
of custom
work to do.
Now if I got Bob or someone else to CNC me a
complete bracket.... but
then it wouldn't be the super-cheap ($150)
coil upgrade anymore :-)
- --Erik
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:10:48
-0700
From: Peter Linss <
peter@linss.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hours
When my transmission was replaced under warranty (the first time)
the
shop was paid for 4.9 hours. I presume that's the "book" time for the
job. That includes .3 hours for the presence of the transfer case & .6
hours for turbo (don't ask why).
I was at the shop just last Friday
watching my third transmission going
in (first was replaced under warranty
for leaks, the second boke
something on the output side a few weeks ago),
they had the front wheels
off and the front CV shafts hanging by coat
hangers, the suspension
appeared intact from what I recall.
I think
I'd be looking for another shop if I were you. Kormex quoted me
about $300
labor costs for swapping transmissions, my shop (local
dealer, San Diego,
who has treated me well) about $500. Consider a drive
to Kormex, should be
less than 6 hours for you, and a nice way to break
in the tranny on the way
home.
FWIW, this transmission I also bought from Kormex, there was no
mention
of, or pressure to get a transfer case with it, though other shops
did
push that. My understanding of the issue is variance in the number of
splines on the transmission output shaft and no good way of knowing
before hand how many you need to have to mate with the transfer case. On
the 6 speeds this isn't an issue, but I presume yours is old enough for
this to be a factor... when shopping around the prices I found for the
TC was ~$300.
Peter
97 3000GT VR4
Walter Womack
wrote:
>Best guess at R&R transaxle with all the proper tools and
assists.How
>many hours? Best quote from a shop has been 9hrs.Was told
that the
>suspension had to be taken apart and dropped and that was the
reason for
>9hrs.Also am buying a tranny from Kormex.Have a lot of
grinding going on
>between 1rst and 2nd and sometimes 2nd and third.Kormex
wants to sell me
>a tranny&transfer case package.Just got a recall
letter from Chry/Dmlr
>for the recall but my TC doesn't leak or have any
other problem I know
>of.I am the second owner so there is the chance that
it may have
>already been replaced by the previous.
>It's just that
9hrs sounds a little steep to me for a dealership.If I
>did it ,it would
probably take 2 weeks.It's just too damn hot here in
>Las
Vegas.
>Anyway;as long as they have it torn down,is there anything you
would
>recomend to be looked at or changed while they have it up on the
rack?
>Thank you for your advise.
>92 Dodge Stealth.
105k
>
>
>*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:01:16
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Colder spark plugs
Ken,
"5" is *hotter* for NGK plugs.
For a colder plug you'll want want a number higher than 6, which would be a 7 or
8. As far as I have found out, you will have to go to a non-resistor plug if you
want NGK's heat range 8 because of our 5/8" hex size. Maybe I should re-color
the table using reddish for hotter and bluish for colder. :)
For the real
difference between precious metal and typical copper core plugs, read my web
page below.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-sparkplugtech.htmBasically,
precious metal tips (platinum or iridium disks welded to the copper-alloy
electrode) provide longer service intervals and reduced required spark voltage
compared to "standard" plugs.
Any plug can increase knock tendency if
the tip temperatures are high.
Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/-
---------- Original Message -------------
Subject: Team3S: Colder spark
plugs
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:59:52 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
To: "Team3S
Questions (E-mail)" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Ok I'm
thinkin its time to go to some colder plugs, did a little research
and found
that the stockers are a heat range 6. Jeff's page shows that
there are
2 plugs available in a 5:
NGK BCPR5ES and BCPR5ES-11
NGK BKR5ES and
BKR5ES-11
http://www.stealth316.com/2-sparkplugxref.htmWell,
I guess actually that's 4. Can anyone tell me what the difference
is
between them, and whether I should stay with NGK Platinum's (right?) or go
to Iridium or the sort. My goal is to eliminate the knock I'm getting
but
still maintain the 22-25mpg I get with my baby.
Thanks!
Ken
Stanton
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:49:06
-0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
Terry their is one small problem, our cars
are full time AWD with a VCD (NOT
A LSD) and unless the establishment that is
doing the balancing is aware of
this you can fry the VCU and
transmission. We had a list member just go
through this about 2 months
ago.....
Just FYI
Russ F
CT
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Grd4Spd Racing [mailto:grd4spdracing@cox.net]
Sent:
Monday, July 28, 2003 10:52 PM
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Braking
Problem
on the car balancing is the proper way to balance the car,
period.
you and i will continue to disagree and battle/discuss our
point(s) however
i will stop here. thanx for your input.
:)
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make you go fast, we don't
sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is
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the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or their designee, please
notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies.
==============================================================================
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:39:47
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: AC and stalling out
If I am reading Sergiy's statements
correctly, I am afraid I must take issue with some of them.
The engine
ECU does not monitor and use all sensors for every control situation (trivial
point but needs stated).
The ECU might have some maps stored to control
ISC steps based on engine RPM and load (or other parameter), or it may simply
calculate the values that are needed. The ECU may use either method or both to
determine control values. Unfortunately, we do not know our ECU well enough to
know which is used in all situations.
The ways the ECU uses the ISC/IAC
servo are well documented and include the following, besides its primary
function of controlling basic idle speed.
- - When the power steering oil
switch is turned on
- - When the air conditioner compressor is operating
- - To compensate for thinner air at higher altitudes
- - To provide
assistance to the dashpot (turbo models) during cruising and deceleration
-
- To assist in starting the engine
- - To provide idle stabilzation during
hot starts (coolant temperature above 194ºF)
- - To provide additional air
during cruising and acceleration
See my web page below for more
information.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-isc-iac.htmI
would guess in some situations, such as during cruising and acceleration, a map
value might be easiest to use. However, to control idle speed all the ECU need
know is RPM and then compensate for electric load, coolant temp, and high
altitude. Maps are not needed.
The ECU always knows which direction to
rotate the servo's pintle because this requires that the four coils are
energized in a particular sequence (the service manuals explain this). Now
whether the servo's components are operating correctly to do what the ECU wants
is another matter.
Resetting the ECU does not affect ISC/IAC servo
operation that I am aware of.
See:
http://www.tmo.com/theory/myth/ecureset.htmThe
ECU does not "recalibrate" on the fly that I am aware of. However, it does seem
to know the servo's pintle positions. It could easily twist the lead screw all
the way in and out at startup or another time in order to "index" the ISC
counts, though I have not seen this on datalogs. The many TMO logs I have
recorded or observed have never shown this type of action when the AC is turned
on or other electric load applied to the engine.
If Sergiy has new
information regarding the programming of our ECU hopefully he will share it and
the source with us, especially if it is for '94 models.
Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Sergiy Lyuznyy" <
svl@idirect.com>
To: "Stephen C. Kempf"
<
kempfsc@mail.auburn.edu>
Cc:
"Team3S" <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July
29, 2003 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: AC and stalling out
I got
exactly the same problem with my car at about a year ago.
This was cured
by replacing two hoses, feeding breake & clutch vacuum
busters (the
valves were leaking) and PCV valve. Steering system pressure
switch &
electric load switch were fixed too.
ISC/IAC servo is fine if it shows 28
Ohm. resistance for each of four coils
The computer constantly monitoring
sensors sending, if needed, pulse
sequence to the ISC stepper, saying to open
or to close, depending on
situation. The trick is - it is using stored
numbers, calculated by
developpers, which were based on math model for
processes in the intake
maniford. With time, because of wear and tear,
resulting in vacuum/pressure
leack, the real statement differs, sometimes
significantly. As the result
computer gets creasy in not knowing which
direction and for how many clicks
rotate ISC to stabilize idle. Some
calibration routines are presented, but
for sure not all situations are
covered. This might get even worse if some
sensors are not working
properly.
Computer memory reset is a must after all repairs are
done.
P.S. AC, being on, might cure situation by sending 'AC load switch'
signal
to the computer this way letting him to recalibrate.
94 Stealth
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 06:41:22
-0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Braking Problem
> our cars are full time AWD
with
> a VCD (NOT
> A LSD) and unless the establishment that is
doing the balancing
> is aware of
> this you can fry the VCU and
transmission.
communication with ones mechanic/shop is key here.
:)
the mechanic/shop performing the service should know this, however
just to
be safe, one might consider communicating this to/with the shop that
its AWD
w/VCD and they will need to take the necessary steps execute the
job
properly. to blame a procedure for damages when in actuality the damages
are
a result of operator error is, well, "misguided" :). many times ones
results
are only as good as the person performing them. in the alternative
one might
suggest to the shop that they perform the service with all 4
corners in the
air. :)
regards,
terry
"If it doesnt make
you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:47:09
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Pulling ABS codes
The service manuals say to use a MUT or
MUT-II to read the diagnostic codes. However, you could try reading the ABS
codes the same way we (1991-1993 owners) read the engine ECU or AC control unit
codes. Use the instructions on my web page below for your '92 except connect the
(+) lead to pin 4.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-diagcodes91-93.htmhttp://www.stealth316.com/2-diagconn.htmI
have no idea if this will work or or not, but it costs little to try. If I think
of it next time I get a chance to fiddle with my '92 I'll give it a shot (along
with other pins to see which give up codes and which do not).
Let us know
if this works for you.
Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "James Matherly" <
jemather@umich.edu>
To: <
team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Monday, July
28, 2003 6:34 PM
Subject: Team3S: Pulling ABS codes
I have had my ABS
light on since I got my '92 TT about a month ago, and
I'd like to try and
get it fixed. I have the shop manuals, but even
after reading the section
about the ABS in great detail I am still
confused as hell.
Is there
any easy way to get fault codes from the ABS system? It seems
like
there should be, since it's nice enough to tell me there's a
problem
somewhere.
<snip>
Regards,
Ted Matherly
jemather@umich.edu'92 Stealth
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:24:47
+0000
From:
john.monnin@comcast.netSubject:
RE: Team3S: MSD Ignition Coils
Al Bautista did a great write up on Acell
coil install; MSD coils are
physically the same size. In fact,
the plastic housing is so similar to Acell
coils I am suspicious that the
insides are the same too despite slightly
different specs.
http://www.allanbautista.com/accel/Be
careful mounting MSD or Acell coils in stock location. The small
wires are
VERY close to the block. On the way to the National
Gathering my car died on
the interstate and would not start. I
told the caravan to leave without me
and called a tow truck.
While waiting for the tow truck I diagnosed the
problem on the side of the
interstate in the rain. The data-logger would not
connect to
ECU. I Checked the Factory electrical service manual I was lucky
enough to have with me found a blown fuse for the ECU and Ignition
system. I
I stole my cigarette lighter fuse and it blew as soon
as I turned on the
ignition. I unhooked my coil pack connector, and
used the windshield wiper
fuse and it didn’t blow. So I then pulled
the Accel coil packs, which is a
pain in the stock location. I found
one of the wires had worn through the
insulation and had ground against the
block. A little electrical tape, and I
was driving awayby the
time the tow truck made it. Fortunately the rain had
stopped and I was
able to drive to a service station to get fuses and I made it
to the
National Gathering almost on time:)
At the National Gathering Dan Mercier
showed me a neat trick for relocating the
coils to any place you
want. He just bought bulk MSD spark plug wires and
made his own
custom length wires. He took the molded plug boots off of his
Magnacor
wires and re-used them on his custom wires. Wires specifically made
for 3s cars have a longer than normal terminal end at the spark plug to keep
from bending when wires are installed. The aftermarket terminal ends
are
shorted BUT the molded plug boots are so stiff it was not a
problem.
I am installing a smaller battery this weekend, and moving my
coils next to the
battery. I should have pictures and a write up next
week some time.
John Monnin
> Erik,
> I'm considering
carrying out this mod myself (due to your glowing
> reports), but have a
question. Are the replacement termination and
> rubber boot part of
the coil package, or are they separate items? If
> they are
separate, who produces them and what are the part numbers?
> Delayed
reaction, I know, but I have had other projects underway.
>
>
Cheers
> Wayne
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
> Of Gross, Erik
> Sent:
Wednesday, 2 July 2003 6:58 a.m.
> To: Jim Floyd;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: MSD Ignition Coils WAS: Acell coils and spark
>
blowout
>
>
> By popular request, you can find my pictures
here:
>
>
http://www.team3s.com/~egross/Temp/coils>
> Note that this is a temporary page until I have time to do the
writeup,
> so if you're looking at this in the archives a few months from
now, it
> may not be at the above URL.
>
> As for whether I
will be selling this as a kit, at this point, no. I'll
> provide my
web page with detailed instructions on how to do it, but, at
> least if
you want to use the stock bracket, there is a bit of custom
> work to
do.
>
> Now if I got Bob or someone else to CNC me a complete
bracket.... but
> then it wouldn't be the super-cheap ($150) coil
upgrade anymore :-)
>
> --Erik
>
>
> ***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:26:54
+0000
From:
mjannusch@comcast.netSubject: Re:
Team3S: Hours
> when shopping around the prices I found for the
> TC was ~$300.
If you can get transfercases for $300 tell me
where and I'll buy 5. Mine was
$1200 from Kormex.
-
-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:22:50
-0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Colder spark plugs
> "5" is *hotter* for NGK plugs. For a
colder plug you'll want want a
>number higher than 6, which would be a 7
or 8. As far as I have found
DOH! Glad you pointed that out, I
musta missed that!
>out, you will have to go to a non-resistor plug if
you want NGK's heat
>range 8 because of our 5/8" hex size. Maybe I should
re-color the >table
using reddish for hotter and bluish for colder.
:)
I think a 7 will do me fine, I'm going to make other changes also
that
should assist.
> Any plug can increase knock tendency if the
tip temperatures are high.
That's a bit vague - are you saying that a
colder plug might not help me, or
that another material alone won't solve my
knock problem?
So iridium would allow me a larger gap than platinum, is
that what I'm
gathering?
Ken
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:33:07
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
OT: IF you want to run at Laguna Seca Nov 28/29, sign up NOW!
IF you
intend to run at Laguna Seca on those dates, you will have to sign up
right
away, since they are only allowing 25 people in each of the HPDE groups!
This
is the ONLY date for Laguna Seca for 2003. For any of you who are not
on
the NASA mailing list, this just came in yesterday:
"NEW
ANNOUNCEMENT!
Registration for Laguna Seca Raceway is now OPEN for
HPDE!!
https://www.nasaproracing.com/register.html
(make sure you are logged in
first).
There are only 100 slots
available. Sign up now to reserve your spot. This
must be done
online or by faxing a form with a credit card, or mailing it in
with a
check. PAYMENT is your reservation; please do not call the office
to
reserve a space. Please read the terms on the registration page
carefully.
You can get a refund, with 7-day advanced notice, so there is no
need to wait!
Jerry Kunzman"
And the latest other NASA NorCal news is
here:
http://norcal.nasaproracing.com/-
------------------------------
In my opinion, many people won't want to pay
the $249 *per day*(!) fee, so
it's all-important that whoever of you IS
interested make plans with other
members to get our "5-for-the-price-of-4"
Team3S discount. Discussion and
plans on the Team3S Racers list,
please, (and keep further comments off the
main Team3S
list).
Best,
- ---Forrest
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:21:50
-0700
From: "Peter S. Linss" <
peter@linss.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hours
When I called MD Auto in Alpine, CA (
www.mdautoca.com from the
Stealth316
website) I was quoted $2695 for a transmission with transfer
case, $2395 for
just the transmission. I suppose that doesn't
necessarily imply that they'll
sell just the TC for $300, but it was the
price difference involved, which
was the point in my reply.
Peter
97 3000GT VR4
mjannusch@comcast.net
wrote:
>>when shopping around the prices I found for the
>>TC was ~$300.
>>
>>
>
>If you can get transfercases for $300 tell me where
and I'll buy 5. Mine was
>$1200 from
Kormex.
>
>-Matt
>'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
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End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V2
#215
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