Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth    Tuesday, July 22 2003    Volume 02 : Number 209

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:38:13 -0700
From: "James Mutton" <james@playstream.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 4 out of 6 cylinders shot!  95 VR4 121K miles

It shouldn't cause the timing belt to loosen.  The direction of travel
is the same and the timing belt is still being driven by the crankshaft.
That doesn't change regardless of whether the crankshaft is driven by
firing pistons or force applied through the transmission.

@ 121K you're due for your timing belt change.  Was this done?  If so
was it done recently and possibly messed up?

- -James
95 Green VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 16:45:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in the
back...

Before you go gonzo on that wing..

seal up the underbody.

Specially the gas tank.

- ---
www.SpeedToys.com: Geoff Mohler orders@speedtoys.com
Team3S/3Si.org Vendor approved brake discounter; also,
parts for Toyota, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, SAAB, Volvo.
Where do you buy YOUR brakes?  I can help...asking is free!  :)
"If its in stock, we have it!"

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:14:32 -0400
From: bob atkins <ratkins@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in the
back...

Well, the '99 wing is functional.

It has a negative angle of attack + it is an inverted airfoil + it has a
raised trailing edge.  The combination of these three features has an
additive affect on overall down force.

Further, although I can not verify this, it is my understanding that Mits
did spend some time in the tunnel optimizing the wing shape and position.

One last point, if you examine the vertical mount for the wing - as ugly as
it can be from SOME angles - It has aero features as well.  The vertical
struts actually follow the line of the cockpit in that they pinch somewhat
from front to back.  Wider opening/narrower exit.

Now for adjustability - Its just a shame that you can't simply Allen wrench
some more attack angle at will.  I submit that you could modify the wing to
implement adjustment capability better than you could determine the optimum
setting.  So - I have just left it where Mits set it and hoped they gave me
the sweet spot.

Badbob
'99VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:32:55 -0500
From: "Wieschhaus, Brandon Kenneth (UMR-Student)" <bwish@umr.edu>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Who made the Line-Out Stereo harness?

I believe it was our own Jeff Crabtree... Hit him up for some info.
    -b

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:44:08 -0400
From: Marc Jaffe <marc@marcjaffe.com>
Subject: Team3S: 4 out 6 cylinders agree this sux...

The dealer said that the timing is currently ok...Originally they thought
the timing went out but they now say something was sucked in... The car is
for sale as is... I just did all kinds of work and now this...jeez..
Marc

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:38:57 -0400
From: David Friedlander <forzion@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: drive shaft, ball joints, control arms.

Paul;

My '94 SL has "road drift," too. It's a PIA. So I'm now in the midst of
replacing the ball joints, front lower bushings, and tie rods. The ball joints
are pressed in to the control arm (thank you, Mitsu) and, carefully, can be
pressed out. Surprisingly, the ball joint itself is not sold as a unit but
rather as a stack of parts which, when bolted together, form a ball joint! That
even surprised my local Mitsu parts guy. My alignment specialty shop will
assemble the parts,  press-in the new ball joints (oh so carefully), insert new
outer tie rods and lower arm bushings.  I get my parts at discount from
"Goodguy" Tom at Yorktown Mitsu (20% discount). Mitsu has thrown us some curve
balls but with some ingenuity, there are sometimes lower-cost alternatives.

Dave Friedlander

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:30:03 -0500
From: "William J. Crabtree" <wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Who made the Line-Out Stereo harness?

Yeah,

Twas lil' ol' me.  Sorry, I've been hella busy.  I'll post my "How I
did it" (by victor frankenstein....for you "young Frankenstein" fans)
Tomorrow.....I SWEAR....

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:33:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: dark@non-corporeal.net
Subject: Team3S: Some opinions requested.

Recently I had my water pump replaced and after I got the car back it
has lost 100 miles per tank loses power at 2500 rpm or so (I think its
just starting cold as was recently discussed here - but it has never
happened before) and now they think I have a warped front exhaust manifold.

Does anyone know what could cause some of these individual problems (I
think they are sticking it to me)?

Thanks for any opinions.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:42:19 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@spamcop.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Some opinions requested

Warped front exhaust manifold?  Are they also selling you a left-handed
smoke shifter?  I recently replaced my front exhaust manifold and confirm it
is welded tube while the rear one is cast.  I don't see how the front one or
either can warp since they are supposed to withstand some very hot temps
(red hot even).  Mine with even a slight gap in the manifold-to-turbo flange
mating area throws off a Check Engine Light because the amount of air going
past the O2 is not as much as it should be.

I've had a leak in the front exhaust manifold for a year and only noticed it
from the surge in turbo boost at max boost (13 psi).  Feel free to let them
remove the front exhaust manifold and confirm it is warped.  I can ship you
my old one for test-fitting if you want.  It will take them 3-6 hours to get
it out and that will cost them roughly $300 of labor and I bet they won't do
it (then they'd have to shoehorn it all back in).  I never lost 100 miles
per tank (was still getting near 400-450 miles per tank on cruising trips).

- --Flash!
1995-1/2 VR-4 with mostly-fixed front exhaust manifold

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:09:58 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Some opinions requested.

That would have been very funny had it not been so terribly sad at the same
time. One week ago you asked about "Recommended Stealth shops?" and got
lots of good advice. The collective opinion turned out to be accurate: if
you do not know how to fix your car you will likely get screwed.

All the good advice was posted on July 14th.

Read manuals, books or make friends with a good mechanic. What you are
describing sounds like they forgot to connect some stupid sensor or
something simple like that. Now you need to find a buddy-mechanic with a
diagnostic tool.

Philip

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:36:18 -0700
From: "h760" <h760@netzero.net>
Subject: Team3S: 92' 3000GT VR4 Rebuild

After a terrible!! noise under the hood, I shut it down as quick as
possible,  but it was too late.  I pulled the spark plugs for a quick
inspection, and I could see all the way to the crankshaft through the #3
spark plug hole.  Bummer, it's time to rebuild the engine in my 92 VR4.  The
biggest question is to use original parts, or aftermarket.  Does anyone know
of any aftermarket rod and piston sets that are better than the OEM stuff.
Any suggestion or comments on different brands of Bearings, Rods, and
Pistons will be appreciated.  Since the heads will be off, are there any low
budget modifications that should be done.
Robert Willingham
Stock Red 92'
3000GT VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:41:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: dark@non-corporeal.net
Subject: [none]

>That would have been very funny had it not been so terribly sad at the
>same time. One week ago you asked about "Recommended Stealth shops?" and got
>lots of good advice. The collective opinion turned out to be accurate: if
>you do not know how to fix your car you will likely get screwed.

Well, unfortunately they already had my car. I had doubts. Now they seem
confirmed. After I get out of this one, I am heading to the SF or Pinole
guys.

Its weird, I am not automotively talented (yet) but even I seem to know
more about this car then them.

>All the good advice was posted on July 14th.
>
>Read manuals, books or make friends with a good mechanic. What you are

As for the books, got em. Studying furiously.

>describing sounds like they forgot to connect some stupid sensor or
>something simple like that. Now you need to find a buddy-mechanic with a
>diagnostic tool.

I am thinking of getting a pocketlogger and a palm IIIc. As for the
mechanic buddy, anyone want pizza and beer?


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:56:42 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in the
back...

At 05:45 PM 7/21/2003, Geoff Mohler wrote:
>Before you go gonzo on that wing..
>
>seal up the underbody.
>
>Specially the gas tank.

That's a good suggestion to reduce drag. It is a tough job but it is
doable. But that won't add much downforce because the ground clearance is
still 5-6 inches and that won't help create much of a downforce unless I
add some kind of side skirts. Also, I want the downforce in the rear and
not just downforce anywhere.

Philip

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:00:25 +0000
From: mjannusch@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Team3S: 4 out of 6 cylinders shot!  95 VR4 121K miles

> Less then 2000 miles later after passing a truck
> last week and letting the car slow down thru engine
> braking instead of an up shift the card died hard...

Blew mine up the same way.  Diagnosis was inconclusive, but ringlands were
broken on four out of six pistons.  Probably ran lean and detonated and
blew 'em to hell.

I doubt something was sucked in...  Also doubt that the timing belt was the
problem.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:18:52 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in the 
back...

Sealing up the underbody will also increase cooling issues to say nothing
about the affects of your first off road excursion. While cleaning up the
underbody would probably help drag I don't think it would be worth the
effort.

BTW why the big effort to get more rear downforce --- the car generally
understeers now, why make it worse. Why not a front lip ???

Another issue I'd like to resolve is the gas sloshing around in the tank, 60+
pounds of gas going from side to side changes the rear dynamics a lot.
I've checked into filling the tank with fuel cell foam but not to the point of
looking inside the tank. Anybody know what type of baffles or sumps are
in the tank.

        Jim Berry

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:03:44 -0500
From: "Nick McDermott" <eire1274@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in
the  back...

I agree, why the focus on rear downforce?  On a FWD car, obviously this
would produce really no productive effect at all, and on an AWD car you
are going to cause more and more disproportionate handling
characteristics between the front and rear unless downforce is increased
all around.

Has anybody thought about actually replacing the stock tank with a
sealed fuel cell?  Are there any cute electronics I haven't found yet
that would make this a pipe dream?

Nick
93 VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:14:38 -0700
From: "Guy, Michael (CS)" <michael.guy@ngc.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in
the  back...

I'm not sure if this is relevant at all but...

I think a rear wing combined with a skyline style underbody wing actually
does a FWD car quite well. Where the rear downforce holds the car down, at
higher speeds when combined with a skyline style under car wing will produce
enough lift to actually 'hold' the rear of the car in place so it doesn't
bounce up and down with the air flow. I don't know all the technical terms,
but I have experimented with this idea and actually done it before. It does
work, and will hold the car fairly level at higher speeds.

Just my .02

Mike Guy
92 Stealth SOHC
87 Celica GT with 48 inch Aluminum Wing and Home made Skyline Style
Underbody wing

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:41:37 -0500
From: "Nick McDermott" <eire1274@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in
the  back...

OK, we're talking about a large rear wing.  If you have a FWD car that
can sustain the 160+ MPH you really would have to push to NEED a wing
like that, sure go ahead.  Plus, if you reread what I wrote, I stated
that a rear wing alone will not benefit a FWD car.  In any situation I
feel than balance should be somewhat sought after if your car is
expected to go fast and turn as well.  For straight line (drag)
supplying downforce where your traction is is often sufficient (unless
your car likes to look at clouds while going fast).

FYI: a couple of my brothers "race" fast FWD cars.  Though I'm more
familiar with AWD and RWD characteristics, I've gotten to do quite a bit
of road testing.  My last nightmare was a FWD Neon with a god-awful 2.5
foot carbon-fiber (rice) wing.  The car was fast, but over 150 MPH there
was SO MUCH downforce on the rear that the car would just nose up... way
overpowering the front airfoil's ability to keep the car planted.
Remember that downforce is 3 times more critical at a point of force
exchange (traction, airflow "push" resistance) than elsewhere.  It is
also possible to have too much downforce if the suspension and steering
is not able to compensate for it.

Nick
93 VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:59:32 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in
the  back...

No doubt you can get too much of a good thing --- that's why the wing and
the splitter [ that Philip will design for us ] need to be adjustable. 160 mph
speeds are seldom seen which is why a large element wing is probably
required. The stock wing on my 93 Stealth probably does little more than
re attach the airflow to the car so it's more laminar and reduces turbulence
at the rear. If drag is not an issue, e.g. a big horsepower car then a rear lip
like the NASCAR boy run seems effective [ and cheap ].

        Jim Berry

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:07:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.combined>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in the 
back...

True..but you are getting a good amount of lift at the gas tank..most if
not all normal cars..build a huge cushion of air around/above the gas
tank.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:23:54 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in the
back...

Geoff,
Is that because of the location of the tank in the body or because of the
curved shape of the tank and the empty spaces around most tanks?
Second question, anyone here ever put a gauge down there to measure the
pressure at speed?
I bet an array of pressure gauges under the car would be an eye opener.
Negative & positive pressures changing drastically at different speeds.

Pete Rivenburg

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:28:15 -0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in the 
back...

You don't want much do you?
Are you bucking for the 200 mph club?
next event Sept 14
http://www.scta-bni.org/El_Mirage/EMmain_13.htm

Hmm, don't see many wings in this crowd..even at 277 mph!
http://www.scta-bni.org/El_Mirage/ELM%2003/July/photos/cars_2.htm

Skyrider

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:27:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in 
the back...

The open cavity mostly..and I'm only going with what every racer I've met
with has had to say about the tank area, not that I've measured myself.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:40:36 -0700
From: "RI'venburg, Pete" <prI'venburg@firstam.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in the
back...

that makes a lot of sense considering the air that gets under the car will
be VERY turbulent and would tend to be like the wake from a power boat,
HARD. A "collection" area for this hard air would seem at first glance to be
lifting force. Is the fix just a thin flat plate over the entire area? I have
noticed over the years that the few cars I have seen with sealed bottoms
sometimes were cupped slightly, this APPEARED to be for lowering the effect
of the hard air against the floor of the car. These were ALL exotics that I
never saw move, let alone perform. They had LOW dams and side skirts.

Pete RI'venburg

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:45:28 -0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt D" <Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in the 
back...

"BTW why the big effort to get more rear downforce --- the car generally
understeers now, why make it worse. Why not a front lip ???"

Yes, if you are thinking you need more downforce due to the 275 tires on
9 inch rims,
that is really just the rim size correction to cure. 

Skyrider

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:04:33 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in the 
back...

True, but I'll bet they have undertrays and have every orifice plugged or
aerodynamically protected. They have the advantage of not having to turn.
Wings provide downforce and drag, in their business drag is the enemy.

        Jim Berry

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:28:41 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <philip@supercar-engineering.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: I want to install a functional wing in
the  back...

At 12:59 PM 7/22/2003, fastmax wrote:
>No doubt you can get too much of a good thing --- that's why the wing and
>the splitter [ that Philip will design for us ] need to be adjustable.

Ehh... I am not sure if I am in the airplane business just yet, but who
knows what the future will bring. :-)

Philip

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #209
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