Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Sunday, July 13
2003 Volume 02 : Number 202
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Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:54:48 -0700
From: Michael Gerhard <
gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: Team3S:
VR4 active aero issue
My body shop has finished repairing my right rear quarter panel which
involved removing and painting the rear spoiler. It has now stopped
operating. They have no clue as to what to do. They called the local dealer
who told them the front air dam must actuate before the rear does and to
"beat" on the spoiler to make it operate. Zero success. I'm going to get
the car tomorrow afternoon and would like some advice on how to proceed
with the body shop. The spoiler was operational before I took it in to the
shop. Any tips on what may be causing it to malfunction? I'm relying on 3rd
hand information as I'm not with the car. However, it sounds like the
spoiler activated once for them and then quit. Also, I think the front air
dam lowers as it should.
Thanks for any help you can provide.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Michael
A. Gerhard 1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 Pearl
White
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:24:40 -0500
From: "Gil Gomes" <
gil@3kgt.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: VR4
active aero issue
Same thing happened to me. There are two small
micro-switches that define the end of travel for the rear spoiler
mechanism. I'd bet one of the switches is fouled with paint. You can pick
up replacements at Radio Shack and it isn't all that difficult to replace
them. I may even have a new switch with the RS part number on it.
Let me rummage around...
- -Gil
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:41:08 -0600
From: "Steve Simonds" <
ssimonds121@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: foggy windshield
Gary, I have the same problem. I traced it to the sun screen I use
summer and winter. Some fumes coming off the plastic of the screen - like
from a new dash.
Steve Simonds
'94 Stealth TT
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:47:07 -0500
From: "Gil Gomes" <
gil@3kgt.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: VR4
active aero issue
Radio Shack Micro-Switch part# is...
275-017A
The switch looks smaller than the OEM switch (only because it is...) But it
bolts down perfectly and everything lines up just the way it should...
- -Gil
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:45:57 -0700 (PDT)
From:
dawahl@newsguy.comSubject: Team3S:
turbo or super???
I own a 94 3000gt SL. I am trying to determine which would be a
better investment between a turbo system or a super charger. My whole car
is stock right now and I want to give it a good extra boost to it. I will
never buy nitrous, so I was trying to get the next best thing. Can someone
please help me to decide. Also, I am having a lot of difficulty trying to
find any of these parts for a Non-turbo 3000. Every site I go to is just
for upgrades on the VR-4. I found one super charger off of GTPRO.
It's made by Knight.
Anyway, please help me with some useful information on
how I can get my SL to fly.
Thank you,
Dan Wahl
Lcpl/USMC
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:10:44 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
turbo or super???
Generally you'd be better off buying a VR4 than you would trying to make an
SL into a VR4. Go to the 3SI.org site and do a search for the info --- several
folks have done it and there were even some 'kits' for sale where people had
changed
their minds or ran out of funds.
Lots of effort and parts required to do it right --- turbos, intercoolers,
fuel system oil and water for the turbos, fuel controller, knock sensor etc.
etc.
Jim Berry
===================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 22:28:35 -0500
From: Matt Costanza <
mcostanza@austin.rr.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: turbo or super???
Dan,
I was in the same position you are in with my 97 SL. What I found was
you can't just bolt on a turbo or a supercharger. If you plan on bolting
on a turbo, you will need to invest in additional engine parts such as a
new computer module, stronger transmission etc..
After you total your costs for both the equipment (turbo, additional
equipment to car) plus the cost of having all of the parts installed,
you could probably source a very nice VR-4 and be good to go.
I've been told that you can expect the stock SL transmission to fail
with all of the new HP and torque applied with a super charger or a
turbo installed.
Regards,
- --
Matt Costanza
Austin, Tx USA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 22:17:57 -0500
From: "Steve" <
denon11@insightbb.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Help! New Problem, now its the idle.. 92 RT TT 69k miles
I had a brain fart, I was referring to the cruise control motor for some
unknown reason. Erik thanks for correcting me.
Steve
Artic white 95 3000GT SL
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:07:09 -0500
From: "Nick McDermott" <
eire1274@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
turbo or super???
The most supercharging luck I've had was with ATI, who makes the ProCharger
centrifugal superchargers. Pepped up a 240sx very well with some bracket
fabrication.
The plus to supercharging is a more gentle boost, as the supercharger
boosts proportionately through the engine's entire RPM range (vs. the spool-up
to boost associated with a turbo). As a result, low RPM torque and HP are
boosted as well as high end, so the high end can be milder pressure than with
turbos. Turbos of course require exhaust as well as intake modification,
but have a lower "parasitic" effect on power because they are using the wasted
energy from the exhaust. Superchargers (especially self-lubricating type like
ATI's "SC" [self contained] series) tend to transmit much less heat to the air
during compression so intercooling is much easier. However, superchargers
generally need a belt location, so you'll probably lose your AC
compressor.
Do not even consider "electric superchargers" such as the e-Ram as an
alternative, as the HP gains are very small.
Also remember you MUST look at drivetrain upgrades as the FWD transaxle and
clutch are pretty much maxed out on the DOHC motor as is. Learned this
with a turbo AWD Eclipse recently (same clutch, my brother murdered that poor
thing).
Nick
93 VR-4 (still clutchless because Napa doesn't know what AWD
turbo
means)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 23:31:48 -0600
From: Greg Gonzales <
stealth@fitnessolutions.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Idling Problem Update for 92 RT TT
ok thus far possible solutions to my problem of rough idle are
-
-battery, which I replaced 1 week ago because it went dead
- - fuel filter,
which I replaced, or rather the dealer replaced 1.5 weeks ago
- - the ISC
motor, which I have taken off and cleaned what I thought could
be
cleaned...and ran the test that is on the stealth316.com website
Thanks for
that!, I CANNOT find the other tests in the shop manual, so
if anyone knows
where those are please let me know.
- - the fuse for the alternator, which
does not look burned at all.
Again the engine at idle is rough, almost like its rich but cant be
cleaned out, when driving and I let the engine brake it surges hard.
when I am accelerating the problem does not seem to occur although a lack
of power is noticeable.
And something different I noticed today is the
dummy turbo gauge seems
to read 0 or close to for a lot longer, but I am not
sure if that is me
not noticing this before.
I did take it to the dealer to day and they said the ground strap was
loose, which one I don't know, but other than resetting the memory of the
computer they did not receive any codes that would indicate something
else wrong.
Thanks
Greg Gonzales
92 RT TT
------------------------------
While checking some wires in my car I was under the passenger side
dash/glovebox, and I found a green w/ red stripe wire that was unplugged.
Anyone know what it might do?
I have already poured over the schematics for the car and this color wire
is not mentioned.
91 Stealth TT
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:00:08 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: turbo or super???
The SC solutions around are all prone to problems and installation
troubles. Unfortunately, the most of such conversions already failed.
On a NA 3S a max of 5-6 psi is what can be done, that's it. Even at 6psi an
engine blew up, although enough of fuel and cooling was there. The hassle
to install a turbo or SC system is way too much for the gain you get.
Regarding the difference, an SC is taking power away from the crank, much
more than a turbine wheel in the exhaust path. The later can even increase
torque in the low end if done right due to backpressure control.
To summarize this, don't touch it and go shopping for a Twin.
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:18:23 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Update on Sue the Bastards
I'm not sure what state this refers to, but the general rule in the United
States (known as the "American Rule") is that each party bears their own
attorneys fees, unless there is a contractual provision to the contrary or
unless a statute provides to the contrary. The rule referred to below is
the "English Rule," where the loser pays the winner's attorney's fees, and I'm
not sure it is recognized anywhere. The general rule in most jurisdictions
is that the loser pays "costs," which is a LOT different than saying the loser
pays the winner's attorney's fees. So before you rely on this, Rich, check
with your counsel. I've had a few cases in Iowa, and don't recall that
Iowa deviates from the "American Rule."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:23:47 +0000
From:
anscray@comcast.netSubject: Re:
Team3S: turbo or super???
I had the exact same issue. I bought a 94SL off the showroom
floor, and
after years of slight mods, I eventually ran out of ideas and
grew tired of
minimal gains. If you want HP, find a VR4 and sell your
SL. Personally I
found a great buy on Ebay 2 years ago and only ended
up a little over 5k(US)
out of pocket to get my 94VR4. The reality
here is that mods on a VR4 result
in a much greater gain than you could
imagine. I actually took some of the cash
from the sale of my SL and picked
up a boost controller,exhaust,BOV,60K tune- up, already had FIPK, and made some
aesthetic mods. Voila approximately 160HP
gain over the SL.
I loved my SL and had a hard time parting with a car I bought with
single
digit miles, but you can't ever realize the power gains you want from
an SL w/o
way more time and money invested than it would take to get a VR4
and the AWD
bonus to boot.
My 2 Cents,
Scott
94VR4 w/lots of toys
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:39:38 -0700
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: turbo or super???
I'd strongly advise you to sell your SL and find a nice VR4. I'm sure
many other will tell you to do the same thing. :)
My roommate put a ton of time, money, and effort into putting a turbo onto
his 2000 Eclipse (same NA 6G72 motor as your SL). It never really was that
fast, and he only got to drive it for more than a couple of weeks before he
broke a piston. In general, NA cars just aren't engineered to take the
stresses of a turbo/supercharger. I'm sure you'd find that the
transmission was lacking as well.
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:21:40 -0700
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: was RE: Team3S: turbo or super??? now new eclipse
Probably not - I'd guess that coolant lines, motor mounts, and such are
different enough to make it a huge pain.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:19:55 -0700
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: was RE:
Team3S: turbo or super??? now new eclipse
Interesting... so does this mean that you could drop a vr4 motor into a
'00+ eclipse?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:28:18 -0700
From: "James Mutton" <
james@playstream.com>
Subject: RE:
was RE: Team3S: turbo or super??? now new eclipse
As an X 3G Eclipse I can fairly confidently say no.
Motor/transmission is reversed in the new eclipse, plus the engine bay is
smaller.
- -James Mutton
95 Green VR-4
------------------------------
Except for one incident, where we still don't know what happened (a Stealth
hit the wall), it was a good day at the races (National Gathering, St. Louis,
Gateway International Speedway).
I've never seen so many 3000GTs and Stealths on a race track before. When I
started, in 1998, I was the only one in the lower Midwest. Chuck Willis was the
only one in Texas, Oskar and some others ran out of Mnpls, and there were a
couple others on the coasts. Our cars will never work on a race track, they used
to say. Buy a real car, like a Porsche or a BMW, they said. Harrumph!
I saw some hardware yesterday that put paid to that rumor. Cars built by
Jack T, Altered Atmosphere and GT Pro -- and many others that I saw, but didn't
ride in -- are the equivalent of any twin turbo Porsches, Vipers, Saleens, M3s,
or Z06es running DEs these days. We don't have to take a back seat to any
car. And, thanks to guys like Philip G, Jim, Geoff, and a host of others,
we are starting to get some real engineering talent applied to our cars, and
parts are becoming designed and built for racing.
I would *KILL* to see Dave bring his GT Pro car or Jay bring his AA car to
SpeedSeekers next April (
www.speedseekers.com) to join me, Jack T,
Jon, Philip, and a bunch of other 3000GT/Stealths in running Road America
against all that Detroit Iron. I can beat some of those guys myself with my car.
I can only imagine what the rumpa-rumpa Detroit iron will say when Jack T and
Jay and Dave with their "ricer cars" pass the Doug Rippie Vette or Beluga the
Great White Whale Camaro or the race Porsche going into Canada Corner. Capture
THAT on video, stovebolt lovers!
http://www.s3mag.com/porsche.wmv
It was a good day at Gateway. The track was perfect for our cars, because
it was easy on brakes. The Porsche club set up the pylons, and it didn't take my
students long to figure out that they were OK as a guide, but not quite right
for our cars. All my students learned very fast, and I signed them off. I had to
pass Rhode Island Jay over to Chuck Willis, because Jay was ferociously fast in
that Altered Atmosphere car, and my limited skills as an instructor couldn't
help him anymore. He was a rocket ship on the high banking, thanks to his
previous roundy-round experience.
(My wife had that problem with her piano students. You can take a student
just so far, then you turn them over to Joulliard. So I turned Jay over to
Chuck, our own Joulliard).
I kinda liked instructing. For the first time in my life, people had to
LISTEN to me and do what I said! It was the complete opposite of raising
teenagers. It was immensely fulfilling to watch them get smoother and faster and
more confident as the day wore on.
I even taught the AWD line to one of my students. We were following one car
about 200 yards back, running the same brisk pace, for about 4 laps in a row. So
I showed him how to turn in early and nail the throttle, and we closed in on
that other car within two laps. Amazing how that technique gobbles up 50 yards
per corner. (I know, I probably shouldn't have taught so much so fast, but
this guy was like a sponge. No names, to protect the
innocent.)
I have great hopes for the future of our cars and our drivers in road
racing and DEs.
As for me, because my VR4 is broke, all I had was my 92 AWD Talon (124,000
miles, bone stock). I ran two sessions, but melted the front tires off it. I
chunked the right front diving into turn 1 at 90 mph, and got the left front so
hot (it was Ouch! hot afterward) the car refused to turn right. Jack T and
Philip came up on me in the Carousel, but I couldn't get the car to turn right,
so I couldn't pull over to get out of their way. I called it quits after that.
*sigh* There's another reason to put on race tires. Street tires ($50 Sumitomos)
are OK for learning, but you cannot run really hot laps on them. They go away
too fast.
Talons, by the way, are a GREAT little track car. I never had this one on a
track before, but it did pretty good. I can only imagine what it might do with
race tires, struts, springs, and brakes. If you want to try DEing, and don't
want to risk your pretty VR4/Stealth, buy a little AWD Talon for $2,000 and run
it instead. It's like a little brother to our cars anyway.
Rich/slow old poop
94 VR4/broken
92 Eagle Talon/melted tires
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:39:27 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: turbo or super???
Hey, Dan,
You've already had some great replies; since I just researched this
question recently I figured that I'd add my opinion...
Add a turbo? Don't even think about it. It's been tried, and
people have failed, after spending a fortune. The only *affordable* big
power mod for an NT (other than short-burst Nitrous) is to add a supercharger;
they start at ~$5000 + labor for complete kits. A Knight SC is the only
recommended one for our cars, and they run from 6psi (street legal) to something
over 9psi (off-road only). But even Thomas "Geoff" Knight himself told me
that the SOHC model is the only 3S engine you can safely put it on without
headwork, since the compression is 8.9:1. (He said not to add even the
6psi model with any more than 9.1:1 CR). Your compression is 10:1, the
turbo is 8:1, so you'll need ringwork, and probably headwork, too, new
harnesses, ECU, turbos, feed lines, intercoolers, and much more... It will
cost you MORE money to change your car than to buy a Twin Turbo or VR-4.
And you still won't have AWD or big enough brakes!
You can buy a 94-95 TT for $7k - $8k, and two Team3S members just recently
sold their 93 TT's (in great condition) for ~$6500. (Check the ads for
cars in your area on
www.autotrader.com. That will be your
best bet.) I have a 94 Stealth NT, and I have already researched
this. I kept the Stealth, and bought a (modified) 91 VR-4 with a new
engine/tranny for $7000, and added even more mods for another $3000 and got a
350hp car that was like new. For another $5000, I turned it into a racecar
to run at Sears Point and Laguna Seca, with 409hp. VR-4's are more
expensive than Stealth TTs, and I have seen many 94/95 TTs go for $7000.
It would take months (and more than $7000) for you to add turbos to your
car. It's a great dream, but you should just look for a turbo model.
I've added my (409hp @ 14psi) VR-4 mods list below my sig. Here's a photo of the
car at the 350hp point - and no..., the $2000 Gewalt wheels shown here
(now on the Stealth) did not come with it! ;-)
www.Team3S.com/Images/350hpVR4.jpg
Good luck!
- ---Forrest
- ---------------------------
1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 Twin Turbo, Jamaican Blue Metallic. Rebuilt
motor (block was hot tanked, cleaned, honed & decked, heads work-surfaced,
all surfaces machined & professionally rebuilt, valve job [new valves], new
upgraded ACL bearings, new rings and all new gaskets). The 60k service was
done: all new belts, tensioner, water pump - the works; new Champion copper
plugs (gapped at .032), wires, O2 sensors, fuel filter, stock clutch and
pressure plate and resurfaced two-step competition flywheel. 5-speed
transmission rebuilt w/ all new Kormex synchros & bearings, and upgraded
18-spline Kormex output shaft. New 13C turbos (clipped 5 degrees), high-capacity
255lph Supra Fuel Pump (hotwired), RC 550cc injectors, A'pexi S-AFC-II Air/Fuel
computer, Split Second ARM-1 fuel meter, Greddy Type-S BOV, TurboXS Dual stage
Boost Controller, Greddy 60mm blackface peak-hold Boost Gauge in Greddy dual
pillar pod... New Porterfield cryotreated rotors and PF R4(F)/R4-S(R)
racing brake pads, PF stainless brake lines and Motul 600 racing fluid, 3SX
Performance urethane motor mounts, JIC FLT-A2 "Magic" competition coilover
suspension, 3SX Performance Rear Control Arms, RD 3" high-flow cat, ATR 3"
downpipe, Borla 3" cat-back exhaust, DN Performance Chrome Y-pipe, K&N
FIPK... TEC front strut tower bar, Saner rear sway bar (not installed
yet), Odyssey 925 Gel Battery, "Big Red" brake upgrade (for Porsche 993 turbo).
Track tires are Toyo Proxes RA-1's 255/40ZR17 on unblemished stock wheels.
Street tires are Yoko AVS ES-100 255/40ZR17, and for that "special" look, a set
of 18x9 SSR GT-1's with Bridgestone S-03 Pole Position Potenza 245/40ZR18.
------------------------------
Email me if interested.
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#202
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