Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Saturday, June 14
2003 Volume 02 : Number 179
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:42:51 -0600
From: Gabe Simoes <
Gabe92RTTT@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Do I need to buy a used crank pulley or a new one?
You could pick up a lightened one from 3SX and pick up regain some
lost
power. I think I paid $189 for mine. If I were purchasing a new
one the 3sx pulley is the only one I would buy, I don't think a used
one
would hurt anything as long as it is in good condition.
Gabe Simoes
1992 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin Turbo
- - K&N, EGR BlockOffs, Port & Polished Heads, Ported Manifolds,
Wiseco
Forged Pistons, GTPro 347s, MBC, DN Y-Pipe, TurboXS RFL, Stillen DP,
3SX Crank Pulley, RPS MAX street disk, Tunerstein Data, SAFC, Walbro
255lph, ARM-1, Weight Redux
- - '99 Lifters & 450cc's on the
shelf
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:47:39 -0700
From: "Mosher, David" <
dmosher@ea.com>
Subject: Team3S: Problem
with front end of 92 VR4
Hey Guys,
I have a 92 VR4 with 200K that I am restoring and for the most part the car
has been very good to me. Currently the car is 100% stock and I have fun
with it just the way it is but as of late I have been noticing that the front
end seems to be developing a vibration at high way speed 70 or so in shallow /
sweeping turns. The steering wheel just does not seem to have that solid feel
any more. I have owned the car since 80k and have not done much in the way
of suspension maintenance other than alignments, tires and wheel balancing;
shocks still seem to be working fine for me.
I was wondering if this vibration is similar to my 1990 Talon in that the
front drive axils needed to be changed because the CV bearings were worn
out. The only difference is that on the talon my vibration was in
straight-aways and would stop in shallow turns.
Dose anyone have any opinions on low cost items to check?
Do rack and pinions wear out in our cars with average use; if so can they
be rebuilt?
Does anyone live in the bay area SFO that might like to get together for
lunch or something so I can have an independent opinion of what my car might
need in the way of maintenance.
Thanks for your time.
David Mosher
92 White Pearl VR-4 100 percent stock.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:02:01 -0400
From: Joseph Spainhour <
spainhou@bellsouth.net>
Subject:
Team3S: battery question
Hello All,
If a car battery drains completely, can you just recharge it,
or will
it need to be replaced? I know it will take a charge, but I am
wondering
if it is going to strand me somewhere.
Joseph
93 3KGT VR4
------------------------------
It Depends(tm) how old it is...and how many times it has been deep
cycled.
Give it a shot..the best case is that it works, the worst is that it
wont.
- ---
Now offering replacement
Toyota/Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Porsche/SAAB/Volvo parts Where do you buy YOUR brakes
from?
orders@speedtoys.com Maybe
I can help..asking is free. :) "If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
this sounds suspiciously similar to a problem my son's car had.
Rotate the wheels front to rear and se if it disappears. You might
have a dented, unbalanced wheel.
Have you replaced the front hub/wheel bearings yet? They seem to go
south at about 70-80K miles (on three of our cars).
How many miles on the front struts? Did you check them for
leaks?
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:12:57 -0500
From: "Philip Kennedy" <
pkennedy@sfigroupinc.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: battery question
In my experiences if it's a battery with reservoirs, just make sure it has
water in it and not running dry. What made it go dead in the first place? If it
will take a charge it should hold it. Unless you have some kind of electrical
system trouble that drained the battery in the first place is still present.
Also how old is the battery?
Philip K.
94' 3000GT N/A
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:16:13 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: battery question
also depends on how long it was flat. too long & lead sulfide &
lead azide crystals grow from plate to plate shorting it down.
Pete Rivenburg
------------------------------
hey guys my fog light blew the other night and when I went to the car store
they didn't have my fog lights in the computer. I need to know what
they are
and where to get them. its a 93 3000gt na. thanks
brandon
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:43:02 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Problem with front end of 92 VR4
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mosher, David" <
dmosher@ea.com>
> Hey Guys,
-
------------snip-----------
> Does anyone have any opinions on low cost
items to check?
- ------------------------------>
The first thing to
check is the lug nuts. If you have had problems since a recent rotation,
or new tire install, they probably overtorqued them instead of torquing by hand
to 95# (90-100 spec). Also check for even inflation, and set a little
higher than stock - Mitsu recommends +4psi all around if you drive fast highways
regularly.
> Does anyone live in the bay area SFO that might like to get together
> for lunch or something so I can have an independent opinion of what my
> car might need in the way of maintenance. Thanks for your time.
>
David Mosher
> 92 White Pearl VR-4 100 percent stock.
-
----------------------------->
I'm in SF, and I'm available (whenever I'm
not out getting my car worked on...). ;-) Email me privately and
we'll figure out a day/time. Mine is parked until I get a Y-pipe, but
we'll do it soon... I've got a good jack, stands, battery impact wrench
and torque wrench, so we could re-do your lug nuts over here, and rotate the
tires front -to- back, like Chuck suggested...
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:34:56 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Blew off the Y-pipe at 70 on the way home from Dyno day...
What a *fun* day I had. We (Geoff joined me) got some very promising
results on the dyno (details in a separate post). I just got home a few
minutes ago - a 2+ hour ordeal instead of a 30 minute ride... When we
tried to up the boost after a very nice 9psi run (we datalogged, too), the
second stage (TurboXS Dual Stage BC) was set too high (~14psi) in the test run,
so we lowered it to ~12. We tried a full run at 12 and the Y-pipe blew off
at 4500, before we even got started. Dyno day over.
It's a good thing I watched Geoff put it back (I'd never done it before),
because even though I wasn't going over 3500 on the road on the way home, it
blew off again! Left lane, doing maybe 75 in 4th, *very* slight
acceleration, and BANG. I lost all power, so I had to pull into the VERY
narrow lane next to the concrete divider. I folded the mirror in and
pulled right next to it, then crawled out the driver door on TOP of the divider,
with cars honking from opposite traffic. I was too close to the roadway to
crawl out of the passenger side without getting hit. SCARY stuff.
The car was at the edge of the lane (maybe 6" to trucks passing at 80), so I
couldn't access from the side... I had to reach from the front. And
of course I couldn't see the cars coming toward me because of the hood - I was
petrified.
Even though I duplicated Geoff's steps (removing all other fittings so I
could wiggle the TB end on...), the grommet was pretty trashed. It was
almost impossible to get it on fully. I tightened it as much as I could,
shut the hood, and started the car up, slowly made my way across lanes until I
could get to the safe side of the highway and work on it again. It had
already blown off again by the time I crawled across 5 lanes, with cars honking
at me like crazy for only going 30 mph or so. I couldn't accelerate hard
or I would have blown it off in the middle of 880. Boy..., give me the
track ANY day!!! NO one moved over. NO one slowed down even a
little. People suck!
I repeated the repair process on the safe side of the highway, and I could
see that there was no way I'd make it the 20 miles home, so I dug out the gaffer
tape. Everything was too hot for the tape to hold on anything for more
than 5 minutes, but I banged and wedged the small roll of tape between the
battery and the Y-pipe. I managed to limp home by never going over 3k, and
trying to get a running start before going up hills... I'm SO lucky, since
when I bounced into the driveway into a space, the car died - I opened the hood,
and it had just popped off again. Friday the 13th has always been lucky
for me. This was one of the worst scenarios I've ever been in. Any other
day, and I would be a dead guy. I pity triscadecaphobics - this was MY
LUCKY DAY. ...Just had to share...
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:46:11 -0700
From: "James Mutton" <
james@playstream.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Blew off the Y-pipe at 70 on the way home from Dyno day...
I feel for you...
EXACT same thing happened to me on I5 in the middle of
rush hour yesterday (of course I was in the left lane). Had to make my way
over to the right. Mine still manages to stay on as long as I don't give
it more than about 4 psi. I actually found on the way home that it was
easier to deal with if I got the RPMS up into the 4500 range and just didn't get
on it. 4500+ keeps enough vacuum on the pipe that it stays on and the car
is consuming too much air to get on boost if you're only giving very small
amounts of throttle. Got me home even with some fair hills, just gave
light throttle and kept an eye that the boost gauge was below or right at
0.
Today the Car is parked and I'm stuck driving the Wife's car (New
Beetle)... It's like pouring salt on a wound. I'll be replacing mine asap
with a real Y pipe. :)
------------------------------
I finally for the timing belt on and am going to set the tensioner
tomorrow, and have a question on the bolt torque.
The tensioner pulley rides on a bracket, sort of L shaped, and it has a
bolt to the upper left of the tensioner pulley. What should this bolt be
torqued to ? Or should it be torques at all ?
It seems that if that bolt is to tight, it will prevent the tensioner
pulley from sliding.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 22:56:56 -0600
From: "Donald Ashby" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: No power problem?
When I'm at about 30-40% throttle the car has absolutely no power, its also
exactly when the boost gauge gets to 0 psi. If I floor it the car takes off
after a second or two, and if I let off the throttle a bit and get more vacuum
then the car pulls better, what could possibly be wrong? I pressure tested the
entire intake path, and only had one tiny leak that sounded like it was coming
from under the TB somewhere. Donald Ashby '93 3000GT VR-4 (RIP) '92 3000GT VR-4
(Vroom!) "Don't drink and park, accidents cause people!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 01:18:41 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: No power problem?
You know, I've always noticed a slight 'power weakness' around 0psi mark in
every TT I've ever driven, but it sounds to me like you have it worse. The
most noticeable time was when I had a bad O2 sensor. Have them checked out
or if they're old just do it. Best of luck!
Ken Stanton
Owner of 3 - 91 Pearl White Stealth TT's (over the past 4
years)
------------------------------
Check fuel pressure if you are able..or just hotwire the pump to full
voltage all the time. I've seen old pumps do that as they start to power
up from low voltage use.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 02:59:58 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Dyno Day report... (long)
Today was "Dyno Day", but I'll reiterate "the whole story so far...", for
the Archives. So much of what I have accomplished so far (and especially
today) has been through the help of *many* Team3S members. I haven't
mentioned everyone who offered advice, but over a dozen people helped (at
various times) with what I got done *just* today! And many others have
given invaluable advice along the way...
Preface: A number of power mods were installed (relatively) all at
once since I bought my '91 3000GT VR-4 at the beginning of March from Bryan
Rogers ("Brainfood", on the 3Si board), Rick Pierce's soon-to-be
son-in-law. Bryan had installed a rebuilt engine, with dozens of new and
upgraded parts, a Kormex-rebuilt and upgraded transmission, a 255lph Supra fuel
pump (wired full on, with 10 ga wire). He even sent out the turbos for a
rebuild for me after I bought the car, (on his dime), since when checking out
the car he found that they weren't performing well. The turbos were shot,
and so he replaced them with new stock 9b cartridges, and he installed and set
them at stock boost, as I requested... I didn't want the expense of doing
power mods to the car at that time, since I had added some pricey suspension
goodies for racing (JIC Magic suspension, control arms, etc).
Rick had seen Bryan's meticulous attention to detail throughout many of the
installations. The car felt pretty strong for a couple of weeks of my
breaking in the engine (very conservatively), but after just three run sessions
at Thunderhill on April 5th, I lost power. Bryan and (grandfather) Vern
Rogers, who were there, diagnosed that a turbo had blown, and I limped the car
home.
The following week, my installer in SF pulled out the turbos and sent them
back to Performance Techniques, who was replacing the failed cartridges under
warranty. After the bad luck of having such a failure and having to pay
for labor for a reinstall, I figured that since things were already apart,
I'd
start doing power mods. I switched to larger turbos (13C's,
clipped 5
degrees), added 550cc injectors, a GReddy Type-S BOV and a TurbosXS
Dual Stage Boost Controller. I chose the Apex'i S-AFC-II for a fuel
computer, and got a Split Second Arm1 Fuel Meter and a 60mm GReddy peak-hold
boost gauge, mounted in a dual pillar pod.
It took a couple of weeks to get English instructions for the new SAFC-II,
(Russ Furman faxed me 74 pages!), but I finally dialed in some approximate (and
*very* conservative) compensation for all the extra fuel that the larger
injectors were shooting. My numbers were based on info from other Team3S
members (Rick P and Ken Middaugh, among others), with an SAFC-I and similar
turbos - the slightly smaller 13g's - and 550 injectors.
Rick even drove down the 100 miles from Folsom and we tried datalogging on
both our laptops in various runs out on 280. We got some numbers from one
3rd-gear pull to 120 mph in Tunerstein, but that's not a very good program,
IMO. I had tried unsuccessfully for almost 2 months to datalog my VR-4,
and diagnose why I still wasn't getting any more than stock boost when I tried
increasing the BC setting by 1 or 2 psi.
Dyno Day:
Today (Friday 6/13) was actually "Dyno Day,
continued"... When I heard (from Geoff Mohler) about the American Tuning
Products (
www.atpturbo.com) AWD dyno
facility in the East Bay, near San Francisco, I made an appointment immediately,
and Geoff and I went there on Tuesday. On the first test run, we finally
figured out why I couldn't get any more boost - the stock solenoid had not been
capped (good call, Damon!), and the O-ring on the outlet of the rear turbo had
been mis-installed, and was half sticking out and leaking loudly. End of dyno
run, with nothing read, but *much* learned.
This morning was a whirlwind start to a "car day", that started at
dawn. We brought the VR-4 in for the O-ring reinstall, and to cap the
stock solenoid. And I looked at the new Stealth long block I had ordered, which
finally arrived. (Nice work!). ET brought in her Spec Miata to have
the passenger window mechanism repaired. After the O-ring, I went over to
Union City to pick up the 3 stock 17" wheels I bought from Chuck Willis (I had
two straightened and all 3 refinished; I bought a 4th wheel from a local junk
dealer). Then I went on to the Discount Tire outlet... They replaced
(under
warranty) a set of 4-yr old, half-tread Nitto 555's that had siping
cracks with a new set of Yoko AVS ES-100, 255/40ZR17's for $300, including
extended warranty, tax, mounting and balancing (thanks to Cody's advice on how
to deal with them!). I went back to Wheels America with the other 4 rims
and brought them in to be cleaned up. I still made it to ATP by 10:45
AM. ;-)
The first dyno run was just to establish a baseline. We saw just how
*very* conservatively rich my initial S-AFC-II settings had been. (I had
set -30 for each of the 12 settings, 600rpm apart to 7600rpm). We dialed
the 1st stage of the TurboXS BC until we saw .6 bar (9psi) on the GReddy boost
gauge, and then started to lean things out. The dyno guy, "Su", went
leaner by 7%(!) from my initial 'low throttle' settings across the board, and
similar adjustments on the 'high throttle' settings. Another test run
showed that from 5000rpm and up, we were still way too rich, and so he leaned
those settings by another 2% each at 5200, 5800, 6400, 7000, and 7600.
I'll have to go back to the car later and get the exact SAFC settings for low
and high throttle, since I lost the paper I wrote it down on. The third
run shows the results of that last adjustment. Here are the graph outputs
from ATP: 1st & 3rd run compared:
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/Dyno0613A-runs1and3.gif3rd
run, including air-fuel ratio:
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/Dyno0613A-run3-AFR.gif
Geoff and I datalogged 5 of the runs. I finally found out why we
couldn't log any data on previous attempts-- I hadn't disabled the Palm
Pilot serial interface, and I was trying to log ALL values, instead of just a
few. This time it worked like a charm, thanks to input from Team3S 'Good
Guy' (datalog
cable) vendor Chris Dooley, who asked Rick to send him his
laptop so he could check out why we couldn't get data. Kudos, to Chris,
for helping to figure out what Rick and I were doing wrong! I set up as
per Chris' instructions when Geoff and I datalogged, and it worked
perfectly. Datalogs for runs 1 and 3 are here:
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/Forrest1.tlgwww.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/Forrest3.tlg
A baseline run was made to map Stage 2 of the BC, but he shut it down when
he saw 14psi:
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/Forrest4.tlgThen
he dialed in 12psi and we started a run, but it blew off the Y-pipe. The
graph was taking off like a rocket compared to the run1 and run2 curves, but we
didn't get a copy of it. The datalog of that abbreviated run is here:
www.Team3S.com/VR4-logs/Forrest5.tlg
I'd appreciate feedback about any significant values in the logs, from you
guys who have been logging for a while... I'll do a full Hi boost run in a
few days, when I install the new Y-pipe. At which time I'll post the
settings used in the S-AFC-II for both Hi and Low settings. And the
new datalogs.
Thanks again to all who have been helping with my VR-4 "track car"
project!
Best,
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 11:30:22 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Dyno Day report... (long)
>> I'd appreciate feedback about any significant values
>>
in the logs, from you guys who have been logging for a while...
Comparing logs 1 and 3, which I assume correspond to the dyno charts you
provide for runs 1 and 3, indicate something very interesting. Knock is
significant in log 3. Run 3 was after the A/F was leaned to what has been
empirically determined over time to be "rich best torque at WOT" or 11.5:1.
Knock exceeds the ECU tolerance and timing is pulled (only a few degrees from
~35 to ~32). Still, there was no knock in run 1. What were the A/F values for
run 1? You should do some datlogging on the street to see if knock gets worse or
better using the current AFC settings. Knock on the dyno may have only been do
the unrealistic engine operating conditions. Were plenum air temps measured?
You can also notice the typical wiggly RPM line above 4500 RPM. My logs
have this, before and after recently replacing the CAS, as do many others.
However, some owners' logs do not show this. I have never found an explanation
on the DSM or TMO lists. I have always wondered if it was datalogger-related
(you were using a TMO right?) or if the ECU really sees a varying RPM signal
above 4500 RPM. For sure the engine RPM is not oscillating 500 RPM!
For future logs you may consider adding throttle position, air flow and air
temp (only if still using the factory MAS), coolant temp, and all three fuel
trims if logging any trims at all (mid and high are more relevant than low
during high RPM operation, plus they will help with tuning the AFC).
Occasionally you should log ISC counts to be sure the ISC/IAC is working
correctly. Same for battery voltage so see how much of a voltage drop you are
experiencing during WOT operation. Also, when not recording a log, take a peak
at voltages for the various sensors.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 09:59:27 -0400
From: "Omar Malik" <
ojm@iname.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: torque
for upper tensioner bolt
It's sleeved, so it won't prevent the bracket from rotating if it's too
tight. I never did find the torque spec in the manual, so I set it to a nice 30
ft/lb.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:02:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Dyno Day report... (long)
Were far from done, so knock via A/F is only an artifact right now.
Run 1 was pig rich.
No WOT of fuel trims, because WOT tuning could care less, I didn't bottle
up the bandwidth of logging with useless information.
- ---
Now offering replacement
Toyota/Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Porsche/SAAB/Volvo parts Where do you buy YOUR brakes
from?
orders@speedtoys.com Maybe
I can help..asking is free. :) "If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Just wanted to say that I carry Axxis Ultimate pads. They are
Kevlar-ceramic pads, have high coefficient of friction and high temperature
fade resistance. They are also priced below Stillen. Excellent pad for the
street and autocross. Email me at
philip@supercar-engineering.com
for
special Team3S pricing.
(P.S. Dunno what it would take to become one of the Team3S "good guys". Do
I need to sponsor some 3S event, offer Team3S discount, or give away a
bunch of products for free??? Oh, wait... I am doing all three of those
things already! Supercar Engineering is an official 3S NG sponsor. You may
win some free brake pads if you come. I will have more giveaway goodies
there too. See you there!)
>>At 02:47 PM 6/12/2003, Furman, Russell wrote:
>>Young the
general consensus is that stillen pads are a little better
>>than
stock...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 14:06:44 -0500
From: "William J. Crabtree" <
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Rotor and pads?
Just wanted to ask if anybody has any alternates to the stillen rotors and
pads that 3sx and dynamic sell. I cannot afford $3K to upgrade my brakes
right now, but would like to get rid of the warping and wobbling of the stock
set-up. I'm trying to get this done before the gathering in a few
weeks. Any other options?
- -Jeff Crabtree
'91 R/T TT (3SI # 0499)
2K Jeep TJ
Sport
St. Louis, MO
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#179
***************************************
