Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, June 11
2003 Volume 02 : Number 177
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:12:01 -0500
From: "Nick McDermott" <
eire1274@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Used transmission
I ended up ordering one of the transmissions I mentioned before. It's
a 5-speed Getrag out of the same year (93) VR-4 as mine, and the case was
cracked and rewelded by a professional shop with a fair reputation. The
internals were not replaced but were "calibrated and tested for operation" one
year ago. Problem is, one year warranty on the labor. The fellow I'm
getting it from had it bolted on to his 94 Stealth TT which was up on stands for
the last year, but of course it didn't match up, and he dropped it to bolt in a
rebuilt 6 speed. So, the transmission worked fine one year ago, has around
50,000 miles on it, has been kept full of fluid, and sheltered for the time it
was on the Stealth. Looks good, too (good, wide welds).
For $500 shipped, I've got my fingers crossed. Anyone caring to offer
sacrifices to the Turbo Gods on my behalf is welcomed to. A bit over a
week to pay for it, and probably another week for delivery.
Nick
'93 VR-4 (Red cars go faster)
- -----Original Message-----
From: fastmax
Sent: Saturday, June 07,
2003 8:47 AM
Your comments are generally correct --- however --- you can find a cheap
gem, I did. The trouble is you probably won't know what you bought until you put
it in your car and by then it's a little late.
There is a thread on the 3SI.org site about a guy who bought a low price
tranny in 'good condition' on Ebay --- output shaft is shot !!! He didn't go
through an escrow company so he's out his $$$.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:38:37 -0700
From: "Erik Petterson" <
erik@microworks.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Stealth Vs Stealth ES Whets the Difference?
Well I used to own a 91 Base with SOHC. Now I own a 94 R/T
DOHC. Both automatics. I almost shit my pants when I opened up the
R/T on the test drive. The 222hp DOHC in the R/T is definitely the fastest
car I personally have driven. I "SMOKED" my friend in his 93 300zx n/a (it
is VERY similar, automatic, 222hp, 3.0L, V6) he even has a straight through
exhaust, K/N filter, lightweight tuner wheels, etc. I was very happy with
the win, especially since my car is still bone stock(so it will be even faster
once I start with the mods)!!!
I looked around for 2 months and finally found what I was looking
for. Paid only $6,400 and the car has only 87k miles... It looks
like it came off the showroom floor, and drives just as good as it looks.
Wait until you find exactly what you are looking for. If you are in
fact driving a DOHC that doesn't impress you compared to your SOHC, then you are
either expecting too much, or driving a beat up car.
- -Erik
'94 R/T
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Sent:
Tuesday, June 10, 2003 7:10 AM
> I would have to say that you either have a fast SOHC or these are
slow
> DOHC's. My fiancé has a 92 ES with 130k on the dial, and that
thing
> absolutely flies. We have raced her car against a Mazda
Tribute, 2000
> Intrepid, 96 Intrepid, Focus ZX3, and many more
comparable vehicles
> and she whomps them every time. My TT, of
course, crushes her, but I
> would hope! The answer is not obvious here,
whether your car or the
> others are to blame, but the DOHC is no joke,
you should have good
> solid pull from it and it should
impress!
>
> Whenever test driving a car, I recommend to people that
they let the
> owner of the car drive it first, so that they can see how
it has been
> driven. It has saved us from buying many an abused
car. Best of luck.
>
> Ken Stanton
> 2 Stealth
family
> 91 Pearl White Stealth TT
> 92 White Stealth ES
------------------------------
I am starting the 60k service today, and have a few questions I was hoping
you guys could help with. The instructions on the Team3S 60k service page
are outstanding and right on the mark, so far.
1) When I remove the Harmonic Balancer, do I have to put it back in the
same position ?
2) How do I tighten the power steering tensioner ?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:07:43 -0400
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
60k service questions
The harmonic balancer has a pin on it. You won't be able to put it back
wrong. The steering tensioner has a part up top that's shaped like a wrench.
Stick an extension bar in there (it'll fit perfectly) and push it towards the
passenger compartment, then tighten the bolts to spec.
Alex.
'95 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:24:50 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Found Bob's problem..
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
>
No boost and running so rich the dyno cant record it. Mis-installed
>
O-ring on rear turbo outlet...will have to replace it and
> we'll try
again.
- ------------------------->
But Damon hit it right on the head about capping both hoses on the stock
solenoid. That *wasn't* done when it was installed(!), so Geoff threw some
gaffer tape on it temporarily. Although it was a wasted run, at least I'm
starting to find out what is going on with the car. But the whoosh of lost
air from the rear turbo is something fierce, so I'll have my installer fix it
and cap the solenoid properly. Today was a waste of time, but I'm still
elated to be pointing in the right direction. Thanks to all for your
input!
FYI, with the turbo leak, the un-capped solenoid hoses, and drowning the
engine in super-rich fuel mapping, the dyno only charted 220hp, 230 torque to
the wheels - both peaks at 5k...
Best,
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:26:22 -0500
From: Drew Mouton <
drew@irev2.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Rebuildable '98 3000GT available
Hello All,
I've been sort of away from the Team3S family for the past few months,
but just came into a car that some lister might want.
Short version: we bought a 1998 3000GT back from the insurance company.
NA model, white, spoiler, 94k miles. It got scraped really hard all the
way down the right side, so needs the appropriate body panels, two
wheels, bumper skin, airbags, etc. Our body guy thinks he can do it for
under $3k, but we've got way too many projects right now to mess with
it.
It's in New Orleans, but we can get it trucked as far as Canada for
under $1k, most US locales are $500 or so.
Anybody interested? If so, message me off list and I'll send
pictures.
Regards,
Drew
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:31:16 -0400
From: "Gil Gomes" <
gil@3kgt.com>
Subject: Team3S: Blow off
valve issue...
I have a '96 VR4 with a K&N FIPK and Borla catback.
I recently installed a Greddy Type S BOV. It seems to work perfectly
except under one condition. I've found that when I'm hammering along at 80 or
so, in fourth gear, and let off the gas... I can hear the BOV blow off, but the
car still stumbles for a second. I wonder if I'm still blowing back at the
turbos.... Should I be concerned???
Thanx...
- -Gil
------------------------------
Oh, I almost forgot, How do I tell if the belts are properly tensioned when
I put them back ?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:37:30 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Found bobs problem..
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
To: "'Team3S
Racers'" <
3SRacers@Team3S.com>
> Ummm,
assuming all you say is right, that's a pretty impressive dyno
>
pull...
Ya figure that's stock power levels, and once you get all the
problems fixed and tuned in, you will be making some serious power!!!
>
-Cody
- ------------------------------------>
One would hope... ;-) As long as I can tune it to be *safe*
power, I'll be happy with whatever I get. I'm planning on setting up the
low boost at 14psi and the high boost at 17psi (race gas only). We'll see
if they can do that and keep the car knock-free. I'm confident that they
can..., since these guys know the S-AFC-II, and they know how to use some of the
other features that I haven't even looked at yet. Fingers crossed...
:-)
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:09:46 +0100
From:
roger.gerl@bluewin.chSubject: Re:
Team3S: Found bobs problem..
The AFC-II is not very useful if any in knock sensing on our car. The
feature is worth as much as the LED feature on the solenoid of the stock boost
valve.
Regarding the capping off of the rear solenoid, this isn't much necessary
as only the behaviour of boost regulating changes. I smell something else here
;-)
Good luck
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
>------------------------------------>
>
>One would
hope... ;-) As long as I can tune it to be *safe* power,
>I'll be happy with whatever I get. I'm planning on setting up the
low
>boost at 14psi and the high boost at 17psi (race gas
only).
>We'll see if they can do that and keep the car
knock-free.
>I'm confident that they can..., since these guys know
the
>S-AFC-II, and they know how to use some of the other
features
>that I haven't even looked at yet. Fingers
crossed... :-)
>
>Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:46:06 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Blow off valve issue...
Is the TypeS a recirculating BOV? If it is not (if it vents to the
atmosphere), then what you are getting is a momentary rich condition. The air
that was released into the atmosphere had already been "counted" by the MAS, and
the ECU thinks it's still there, thus dumping the extra fuel still...
- -Cody
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gil Gomes
> Sent:
Tuesday, June 10, 2003 7:31 PM
>
> I have a
'96 VR4 with a K&N FIPK and Borla catback. I recently
> installed a
Greddy Type S BOV. It seems to work perfectly except
> under one
condition.
> I've found that when I'm hammering along at 80 or so, in
fourth gear,
> and let off the gas... I can hear the BOV blow off, but the
car still
> stumbles for a second. I wonder if I'm still blowing
back at the turbos....
> Should I be concerned???
>
>
Thanx...
> -Gil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:52:05 -0400
From: "Gil Gomes" <
gil@3kgt.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blow off
valve issue...
I should have included more info... The Greddy is
recirculating. I'm running stock turbos and stock boost... Tanx...
-
-G
> Is the TypeS a recirculating BOV? If it is not (if it vents to
the
> atmosphere), then what you are getting is a momentary rich
condition.
> The air that was released into the atmosphere had already
been
> "counted" by the MAS, and the ECU thinks it's still there, thus
> dumping the extra fuel still...
>
> -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:22:44 -0400
From: "Gil Gomes" <
gil@3kgt.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blow off
valve issue...
After more research... It looks like your garden variety
compressor surge... I've already adjusted it back and I'll test it on the way in
to work tomorrow. I've got a 10mm box wrench and 3mm Allen ready to go
tomorrow... So I can re-adjust it on the way home... <oy....>
-
-G
------------------------------
While at the track the other nite, I saw a Non turbo 4th gen supra
race.
Unfortunately, my attention as taken away was the 1/4 flashed
by.
My DOHC n/a runs consistent low 16's with an auto. Would a supra with the
same setup( auto, 222 HP) have similar or better performance. I know
the supra is
rear drive.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:50:33 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Porting heads
Well, looks like the car is going to be put together shortly here. Still
waiting on a few things but the shortblock finally came in at the end of last
week. I have now started to do porting on the heads etc.
First off I went out and read a bunch of stuff on what/why/how to do it and
most importantly what not to do it. Problem is, just about everything has been
Ford/Chevy V8 stuff which is archaic compared to our engines. Found a honduh
write-up but didn't seem to be from someone that knew what they were
doing.
I went out and got a Dremmel tool for the job with the extension wand and a
bunch of junk. Got extra goodies to make the job easier. Found out shortly that
the Dremmel will not do the job; rather it will but by the time I will be done I
will have children and a long beard. So this morning I went out, spent the bucks
and got a 27 Gallon compressor with all the toys. MAN is it cool! The impact
wrench (for taking headers off) is like the coolest thing made by men! Anyhow,
after messing around with various bits for the die grinder, I settled on a 100
grit sandpaper wheel. Does a very nice job. Not too slow, not too fast - very
controlled.
Ether way, I am opening up the intake and exhaust to be as much of a
"straight shot" as possible and prevent air tumble. I am port matching all
intake stuff to my new gaskets, leaving about .5mm overhang just in case and
feeling pretty good about that. The question that I had was on the exhaust. I
know that the exhaust head port should have a bit of a step to break up
backpressure. However, I just noticed that the new aftermarket gaskets that I
got are already port matched to the header and have a small overhang on the
head. The stock gaskets have about 1mm more radius than the kit I got. Question
I have is, should I just leave the exhaust head port alone? I am looking in the
exhaust port and there is certainly stuff on the inside that I can clean up. A
lot of stuff. What I am thinking though is to leave the final opening the
same...
On the intake side of things, I did as many instructions said and used an
80 grit sander wheel to rough up the intake side so that the air will be a
little turbulent on the sides and mix with fuel better. Problem is, I cannot
really feel the difference between 100 grit and 80 grit. Both feel very smooth!
Should I hit it with a wire brush?
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:50:23 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Found bobs problem..
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
> The
AFC-II is not very useful if any in knock sensing on our car.
> The
feature is worth as much as the LED feature on the solenoid
> of the stock
boost valve.
- ------------------------------------>
Yes, we know that
- the knock count is a totally useless feature on the SAFC-II. We're
counting on the dyno place and the datalogging to give us the knock count.
> Regarding the capping off of the rear solenoid, this isn't much
> necessary as only the behaviour of boost regulating changes.
> I
smell something else here ;-)
> Good luck
> Roger G.
> 93
& 96 3000GT TT
- ------------------------------------>
Perhaps your
detailed comments on the two following items would clarify
things:
1) Damon's note verifies exactly what I've been seeing lately (.4 bar):
"Make sure that your installer capped both hoses to and from the stock solenoid
(right most solenoid on the firewall by the throttle body). This should be
completely out of the loop. If the hose from the H connector to the stock
solenoid is open to atmosphere, you will never make more boost than the stock
actuator settings, which is about 0.4 bar (6psi)."
2) The instructions on the TurboXS Dual Boost Controller contains the
warning:
"Note: Vehicles fitted with a factory electronic boost control
system need to have the electronic boost control system disabled prior to
installation of the TurboXS Dual Stage Boost Controller. There should not
be more than one boost control system controlling the boost pressure of a turbo
charged vehicle."
I would think that taking the stock solenoid "out of the loop" by capping
hoses to- and from- would satisfy their warning. True? Is there
something else that should be disabled?
TIA for any other suggestions...
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:38:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: 3S-Racers: Re: Team3S: Found bobs problem..
So..how you plan to tune for 17psi..bringing your own race gas?
- ---
Now offering replacement
Toyota/Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Porsche/SAAB/Volvo parts Where do you buy YOUR brakes
from?
orders@speedtoys.com Maybe
I can help..asking is free. :) "If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:42:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: 3S-Racers: Re: Team3S: Found bobs problem..
You'll see Kr on the dyno chart..losing 10-15d of timing shows up very
clearly.
On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Bob Forrest wrote:
> Yes, we know that - the knock count is a totally useless feature on
> the SAFC-II. We're counting on the dyno place and the datalogging
to
> give us the knock count.
- ---
Now offering replacement
Toyota/Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Porsche/SAAB/Volvo parts Where do you buy YOUR brakes
from?
orders@speedtoys.com Maybe
I can help..asking is free. :) "If its in stock, we have it!"
------------------------------
I was wondering what the proper ratio of Coolant/Water I should use to
refill the system after I drain to replace the water pump ?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:50:26 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Dyno plans
(was: Re: Team3S: Found bobs problem..)
> So..how you plan to tune for 17psi..bringing your own race gas?
-
--------------------------------->
Eventually, yes. But for this session, since I want to check out all
the new components first, I'm planning on staying conservative. Low
setting will be ~9psi; high setting will be ~14psi on 91 pump gas. After
the dyno session, I've got to find a way to datalog (I think my problem was not
disabling the Palm serial port settings). And do some serious eval on what
we're seeing. If it's all copasetic, I'll do another dyno session after the Big
Reds are installed, and I'll bring 5 gal of race gas...
And BTW Geoff - many thanks again for being there today to help diagnose
the problem. It was an abbreviated session but still productive.
Aces!
- ---Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:41:41 +0200 (MEST)
From:
roger.gerl@bluewin.chSubject: Re:
Re: Team3S: Found bobs problem..
The manual, mechanical controlled boost controllers are much more sensitive
to the stock solenoid or other non 100% ok stuff in the system. The EBC just can
control the boost much better due to the feedback loop.
The only vacuum line that has to be removed is the one that leads from the
4way connector to the stock boost solenoid. Then cap off the hose and the nibble
at the solenoid. That's it.
The No 1.explained is KILLING YOUR ENGINE !!!! This, because when the hose
is left open you do have a leak in the wastegate actuator lines. This means that
the actuators will NEVER open i.e. boost will rise above the limit ... bang !!!
So better delete this message from the digest or archive as it doesn't limit
boost, it increases it to a dangerous level.
No.2 is explained above, no need to do more. Also the TurboXS ones are the
most sensitive ones but ok to start with. Many people are upgrading to a loop
back controlled system with an EBC sooner or later to get the most out of the
system.
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:18:08 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Used transmission
I'm not familiar with the details of all the spline changes on the output
shaft to the transfer case, but is this something Nick should be concerned
about?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Nick McDermott
[mailto:eire1274@cox.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 6:12 PM
I ended up ordering one of the transmissions I mentioned before. It's
a 5-speed Getrag out of the same year (93) VR-4 as mine, and the case was
cracked and rewelded by a professional shop with a fair reputation. The
internals were not replaced but were "calibrated and tested for operation" one
year ago. Problem is, one year warranty on the labor. The fellow I'm
getting it from had it bolted on to his 94 Stealth TT which was up on stands for
the last year, but of course it didn't match up, and he dropped it to bolt in a
rebuilt 6 speed. So, the transmission worked fine one year ago, has around
50,000 miles on it, has been kept full of fluid, and sheltered for the time it
was on the Stealth. Looks good, too (good, wide welds).
For $500 shipped, I've got my fingers crossed. Anyone caring to offer
sacrifices to the Turbo Gods on my behalf is welcomed to. A bit over a
week to pay for it, and probably another week for delivery.
Nick
'93 VR-4 (Red cars go faster)
- -----Original Message-----
From: fastmax
Sent: Saturday, June 07,
2003 8:47 AM
Your comments are generally correct --- however --- you can find a cheap
gem, I did. The trouble is you probably won't know what you bought until you put
it in your car and by then it's a little late.
There is a thread on the 3SI.org site about a guy who bought a low price
tranny in 'good condition' on Ebay --- output shaft is shot !!! He didn't go
through an escrow company so he's out his $$$.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:29:47 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Used transmission
No because he got one from the same model year as his car it should have
the same number of splines, unless when it was rebuilt they swapped output
shafts.....
Russ F
CT
DR 650's and supporting mods
- -----Original Message-----
From: Starkey, Jr., Joseph
[mailto:starkeyje@bipc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 9:18 AM
I'm not familiar with the details of all the spline changes on the output
shaft to the transfer case, but is this something Nick should be concerned
about?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:31:33 -0700
From: "Andy" <
awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: coolant mix
50:50
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:31:39 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: coolant mix
Depends on climate, if you live in a region that never gets below 45 deg I
would just run distilled water and water wetter, For the rest of the country I
would say run 60% water to 40% coolant and a bottle of water wetter mixed in for
good measure.
Russ F
CT
DR650's and supporting mods
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:43:55 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Used transmission
The output shaft issue was commented on recently by Bret Brinkmann on 3SI.
[Quote] Knowing your tranny: Many people think there are only three different
trannys out there. I have found this to be untrue. There is the 18 spline output
shaft five speed, the early 25 spline output shaft five speed with the smaller
input shaft retaining bolt and end cap with NO stud on the end, the late model
25 spline output shaft five speed with the bigger input shaft retaining bolt and
end cap WITH a stud, and the six speed. There may be more differences I have yet
to see. Earlier in this thread some one mentioned they had a retaining bolt that
was a 10 mm not a 12 mm. Mine was definitely 12 The smaller retaining bolts I
have found to be a 7 mm. You will obviously know weather you have a six or five
speed. But before you order parts be sure to know which spline you have and
which retaining bolt and end cap you have. The 25 spline output shaft was
introduced in the middle of the 92 model year. The first few 25 splines have the
smaller retaining bolt and end cap with NO stud! . Afterwards they
switched to a bigger retaining bolt and an end cap with a stud, according to
CRS. Before you order parts remove the plastic cap from the back side of the
input shaft and see which size you have and which cap style to have. B59, the
retaining bolt or plug, is metal and DOES NOT need to be replaced unless
otherwise damaged. So don't waste your money. B66, the input shaft cap, DOES
NEED TO BE REPLACED! It is basically a seal at the back side of the input shaft
to access the input shaft retaining bolt. [ENDQUOTE]
===========================================
Here is what CAPS says for the 5-speed transfer case.
9004.1-9111.1 MB811033/MR165234 (I assume the 18-spline output shaft)
9111.2-9305.3 MB936389 (I assume the 25-spline output shaft)
It looks for sure that all '93 AWDs have the 25-spline output shaft (as
does my March '92 made '92 TT). CAPS indicates there was no changes in the
transfer case and transaxle used for all 6-spd units (production starts at
9306.1).
Now as for the 5-spd transaxle itself, CAPS shows these changes. CAPS does
not note the retaining bolt size issue Bret mentions, but does show some
mid-model-year changes for the 1992 and 1993 models.
9004.1-9111.1 MB811031
9111.2-9205.3 MB936583/MR111883
9206.1-9209.3
MB936206/MR111883
9210.1-9305.3 MR111883
Because MR111883 replaces any of the 25-spline transaxles, I would guess
the retaining bolt issue may not be that important as far as matching complete
25-spline transaxles with 25-spline transfer cases. However, if replacing some
internal parts in a transaxle, such as the output shaft itself, Bret's advice is
worth noting.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Sent:
Wednesday, June 11, 2003 7:29 AM
No because he got one from the same model year as his car it should have
the same number of splines, unless when it was rebuilt they swapped output
shafts.....
Russ F
CT
DR 650's and supporting mods
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:36:15 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
3S-Racers: Re: Team3S: Found bobs problem..
Bob Forrest wrote:
> 1) Damon's note verifies exactly what I've been
seeing lately
> (.4 bar): "Make sure that your installer capped both hoses
to
> and from the stock solenoid (right most solenoid on the
>
firewall by the throttle body). This should be completely
> out of
the loop. If the hose from the H connector to the
> stock solenoid
is open to atmosphere, you will never make more
> boost than the stock
actuator settings, which is about 0.4 bar
> (6psi)."
The hose the runs from the stock "H" connector to the upper nipple on the
stock boost control solenoid must be disconnected and capped (either at the
H-connector or at the other end of the hose).
The hose from the bottom nipple of the BCS (which runs to the rear
compressor intake pipe) should be blocked in some way. You can either
leave it connected to the BCS and cap the upper nipple on the BCS, or you can
disconnect the hose from the BCS and cap the hose itself. A third option
is to completely remove the hose and cap the nipple on the rear compressor
intake pipe, but that's kinda hard to get to.
So Damon's right in that you do need to disconnect/cap those connections
appropriately for your aftermarket boost controller to work properly.
However, as Roger mentioned, having the hose that normally goes from the H
connector to the upper nipple on the BCS disconnected will cause the wastegates
to remain closed indefinitely, which will result in uncontrolled boost.
This will not cause the lack of boost you were seeing. The stock BCS
regulates the amount of air bled *out* of the wastegate actuator lines - thus if
it were wide open (or the hose vented to atmosphere), then the wastegates
actuators would never see enough pressure to cause the wastegates to open.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:46:12 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Blow off valve issue...
Unless you have the spring adjusted REALLY tight, I doubt it's compressor
surge. I have experienced what you describe on just about every VR-4 (with
an aftermarket BPV) I've driven or ridden in. It's far worse with
open-loop BOVs, but it seems to still happen (in a milder version) with
closed-loop BPVs, too. It only happens when making light adjustments of
the throttle, often when going from mild acceleration or cruising with around
7psi of boost at low-mid RPM to a "throttle barely opened" condition. If
you're experiencing this when you are at full boost and slam the throttle shut
(like when shifting), then I'd be concerned about compressor surge.
Anyone else have an explanation for this behavior? Based on the
number of cars I've seen it in, I can't imagine this is restricted only to cars
in the PNW :-)
> After more research... It looks like your
garden variety
> compressor surge... I've already adjusted it back and
I'll
> test it on the way in to work tomorrow. I've got a
10mm
> box wrench and 3mm Allen ready to go tomorrow...
> So I can
re-adjust it on the way home... <oy....>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:36:57 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Blow off valve issue...
I run an open loop BOV and have no stumbling or hesitation --- I've
run
it that way for a couple of years. The only other mods are the boost
control
set to 15 psi and a K&N filter.
Jim Berry
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Sent:
Wednesday, June 11, 2003 9:46 AM
> Unless you have the spring adjusted REALLY tight, I doubt it's
>
compressor surge. I have experienced what you describe on just
>
about every VR-4 (with an aftermarket BPV) I've driven or ridden
>
in. It's far worse with open-loop BOVs, but it seems to still
>
happen (in a milder version) with closed-loop BPVs, too. It
> only
happens when making light adjustments of the throttle, often
> when going
from mild acceleration or cruising with around 7 psi
> of boost at low-mid
RPM to a "throttle barely opened" condition.
>
> If you're
experiencing this when you are at full boost and slam
> the throttle shut
(like when shifting), then I'd be concerned
> about compressor
surge.
>
> Anyone else have an explanation for this behavior?
Based on
> the number of cars I've seen it in, I can't imagine this
is
> restricted only to cars in the PNW :-)
>
> --Erik
>
'95 VR-4
www.team3s.com/~egross
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:54:33 +0100
From:
roger.gerl@bluewin.chSubject: Re:
Dyno plans (was: Re: Team3S: Found bobs problem..)
Yes, a dyno session is much more critical and dangerous than running
the
car on the road or track !
I saw several dead engines after a dyno run due to the following
reasons
:
- - overheating 1 (coolant system)
- - overheating 2 (air
intake system)
- - load stress
Actually we killed 2 3S engines on the dyno and did not really ever
found
out why. One possible cause for the holes in the piston(s) where
broken
plugs... sounds strange but on both cars I found damaged plugs (not
melted)
and the closest guess is that the plugs broke due to the regapping
(!).
So my advice from many years experience in dyno testing (and some
tuning)
is :
1. cooling, cooling and again, cooling
Make sure the
intercoolers as well as the radiator. Make sure fresh cold
air is coming in
from outside. Lack of cooling mostly was responsible for
all the damages I
have seen (besides of headers falling off and the engine
bay under fire
...)
2. Make sure your coolant is appropriate and the system is working
3. Plan to make three pulls, start with 0.8bar and go on. Look at my
dyno
sheets and the datalogger and you can see that there was much of knock
around.
No damage to the engine and only low retards but no good
feeling.
Now there are some different kind of dyno runs. The two we do are fast
pulls
and run ups (we call them so). The first is only a few sec pull where
the
car is in second gear and at 3000rpm. Then the load is increased to
full
and the throttle pushed down until it reaches the red line. This is a
short
pull without much stress and shows a peak power at around 5 - 6k. It's
more
safe but does show sustained power (and this is what counts)
The run up starts at 800rpm in 4th gear (on most cars, the aim is
chose
the most closest 1:1 gear) and run it up under full load up to the
redline
or when the power output starts to fall off. An operator usually will
shut
then down because it could be retarded timing or anything else bad
that
causes the power drop. If it is around 6500 then it is normal for our
cars
(stock heads).
The later is usually used to make corrections and tuning over the
powerband
and represents what the car is really able to do on a reputable
basis. It
also shows you the power curve and together with logged data you
can get
the most out of your tuning tools.
The first can be done just to find out where your peak power is. To
see
what your engine can really do for you is to store this rpm and then
hold
it there. This means that the dyno operator is applying full load to
the
car and rpm is hold at where peak power was found. This allows time
that
boost can be increased to gain more power. The point where power is
not
climb anymore or even starts to drop is where you have to reduce
boost.
Then go back a safety margin like 0.2 bar or whatever you like (or
risk
you want to take).
Watch the following :
- - Oil temperature (more important than I
thought)
- - Water temperature (when it rises quick ... sorry too late)
-
- Air temperature (at the filter)
- - Air temperature (before the TB)
- -
EGT
Measuring the air before the TB is a very good implication to shut the
run
down before any damage occurs. The best is to measure the temp right
after
the turbo, before the IC and after the IC. I saw more than 144°C after
the
turbine and the desired intake temperature should not go above 69°C.
Needless
to say that I saw often more than 112°C due to the lack of cooling
on the
dyno. Here I saw a great decrease with the WIS System down to about
79°C
(much better on the road then). Since I have the choice of the dynos
around
I only use now the one with the perfect cooling channel with air fed
in
from the outside. I saw a reduction of more than 25°C in the intake
due
to the better cooling compared to other dynos with simply a fan in
front
of them !
EGT is a very good indicator as the engine is under full load from
800rpm
on. Due to the relatively slow climbing in rpms the EGT can be watched
going
up. As we all know 850°C for the temp should be the top limit. 900°C
is
the absolute alarm zone but has often be seen. Due to my experience
keeping
the EGTs low never caused any damage to the engine so far. Again WIS
helped
a lot in this case while adding alcohol increased the
temperature.
To recap this topic, a dyno run only will give you the appropriate
data
if the runs was done right. Allow 5% fluctuation in between runs and
always
think about the overheating. Watch all variables as good as possible
and
start with conservative settings. With this you can safely start to
increase
and finally touch the peak of the power of your car.
Happy dynoing
Roger G.
93 & 96 3000GT TT
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:21:19 -0400
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
Re: Dyno plans (was: Re: Team3S: Found bobs problem..)
WOW! Roger, thanks for writing a dyno manual for us! I am sure Forrest
is
already copying and pasting it into the FAQ pages. :-)
One thing that I thought you would mention was manually spraying water
on
the intercoolers and the radiator. Do you do that and how effective
is
that?
Philip
------------------------------
I have never noticed that, but my guess it that it is the coastdown
fuel
cut. The fuel is cut off when you coast down for fuel economy. It takes
the
engine a few moments to start running again. It happens in lower gears
too
but you do not notice it because it happens much quicker.
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: glenn vrfour <
vr4glenn@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S:
ECS Question
Clicking the ECS button in my car (93 vr4) changes the
dash light from
tour to sport, but there is no
noticeable difference in suspension
stiffness. The
lights do not blink any error codes, they are
solid.
It has been this way since I bought the car.
Is it safe to assume that the struts are shot, or is
further
investigation needed? I'd hate to invest in
the struts to find out that
something else (that might
be even more expensive) is wrong.
Thanks,
Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:32:40 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Dyno plans (was: Re: Team3S: Found bobs problem..)
That is not as effective as using a CO2 Fire extinguisher (nor sure
weather
that's an A,B,or C) which has shown significant drops in IC outlet
temps.
The other bonus of C02 is the fact that you can "cold soak" the IC's
before
a run and slightly pad your numbers.......
This is just my .02
Russ F
CT
DR650's and supporting mods
- -----Original Message-----
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
[mailto:pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:21
PM
WOW! Roger, thanks for writing a dyno manual for us! I am sure Forrest
is
already copying and pasting it into the FAQ pages. :-)
One thing that I thought you would mention was manually spraying water
on
the intercoolers and the radiator. Do you do that and how effective
is
that?
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:39:54 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: ECS Question
The difference should be noticeable on rough roads. I can just about
drive my car over rough roads with the suspension locked in sport mode without
getting sick! But then again, I live in Pittsburgh where the roads are
notoriously bad (right Merritt?)
- -----Original Message-----
From: glenn vrfour
[mailto:vr4glenn@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:33 PM
Clicking the ECS button in my car (93 vr4) changes the
dash light from
tour to sport, but there is no
noticeable difference in suspension
stiffness. The
lights do not blink any error codes, they are
solid.
It has been this way since I bought the car.
Is it safe to assume that the struts are shot, or is
further
investigation needed? I'd hate to invest in
the struts to find out that
something else (that might
be even more expensive) is wrong.
Thanks,
Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:59:49 -0400
From: "Gil Gomes" <
gil@3kgt.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blow off
valve issue...
I turned the screw one full revolution towards
soft... It seemed to
make a difference. I didn't get the stumble
at all. I'm going to turn it
1/2 turn more for a margin of
safety. I'll thrash it a bit on the way home
and we'll see...
-
-G
------------------------------
At 02:39 PM 6/11/2003 -0400, Starkey, Jr., Joseph wrote:
>The
difference should be noticeable on rough roads. I can just about
drive
my car over rough roads with the suspension locked in sport mode
without
getting sick! But then again, I live in Pittsburgh where the roads
are
notoriously bad (right Merritt?)
At the risk of being declared off topic again and banned...
When I lived there, they had two and three bedroom potholes. One
pothole
swallowed a city bus (I am not making this up). Street urchins made a
nice
living chasing down hubcaps and wheel covers (remember those?) and
then
selling them to the same drivers the next day.
I moved there with a 1972 Datsun 510 with African Safari rally
suspension,
steel sump guard, roll bar, roo bar, 600W of lights, and 10 in.
of ground
clearance. It was the perfect car for Pittsburgh streets. Alas, it
couldn't
pass PA safety inspection because it wasn't stock.
Pittsburgh is also the only city in the world where, if you miss a
left
turn, then make three right turns to get back to the intersection (as
you
would in a normal city), you wind up in Ohio.
Ah yes, Pittsburgh. Land of incompetence. Everybody wants to get the
"H"
out of Pittsburgh.
Rich/out and lovin' it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:05:34 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: ECS Question
And just so we're clear, Merritt lived here decades ago. Not so bad
now, is it Flash?
And by the way, it seems like everyone BUT ME (and perhaps Flash) wants to
get the "H" out of Pittsburgh! ;-)
Sorry admins, back to business....
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:14:58 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Re: Dyno plans...
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
> Yes, a
dyno session is much more critical and dangerous than running
> the car on
the road or track! I saw several dead engines after a
> dyno run due
to the following reasons
> - overheating 1 (coolant system)
> -
overheating 2 (air intake system)
> - load stress
-
---------snip------------
> The first can be done just to find out where
your peak power is. To see what
your engine can really do for you is to store
this rpm and then hold it there.
This means that the dyno operator is
applying full load to the car and rpm is
hold at where peak power was found.
This allows time that boost can be
increased to gain more power. The point
where power is not climb anymore or
even starts to drop is where you have to
reduce boost. Then go back a safety
margin like 0.2 bar or whatever you like
(or risk you want to take).
- ---------snip------------
> To recap this
topic, a dyno run only will give you the appropriate data if
the runs was
done right. Allow 5% fluctuation in between runs and always think
about the
overheating. Watch all variables as good as possible and start
with
conservative settings. With this you can safely start to increase and
finally
touch the peak of the power of your car.
> Happy
dynoing
> Roger G.
> 93 & 96 3000GT TT
-
------------------------------>
Roger - you are AWEsome! Like Philip said, I'm already planning to
put that
somewhere on the Team3S website! Maybe I'll just copy your
entire turbo
tuning website over to Team3S and call it "Roger Gerl's
Garage." ;-)
www.rtec.ch (Little
plug for Admin Roger's website!) ;-)
We've already established (in the 2 short runs we did) that my VR-4's
peak
power is at 5000 rpm - both HP and torque were max there. That
might change
once we re-adjust the fuel trim and the back turbo isn't leaking
all to hell
because of the O-ring being mis-installed. We'll be doing a
baseline run at
stock boost, then I like your suggestion of trying .8 bar for
the first tuning
run. BTW..., these guys have not only a humongous fan
in front of the car,
but two smaller cool-air fans (A/C) directed at the
intercoolers. It sure
looks like they know what they're doing.
With any luck, someday I might know
what I'm doing, too! ;-) With
all the help you guys have been giving me,
it's a good bet. THANK YOU
ALL!!!
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:21:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Re: Dyno plans...
Unfortunately, the only loading dyno I know of, is only 2wd.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:02:32 -0400
From: "Ken Stanton" <
ken.c.stanton@usa.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Blow off valve issue...
Be sure to reference Jeff L's page, it has a write-up on adjusting the
valve.
One important note in there is that the valve is supposed to be
tightened
(harder) until surge is experienced, then backed off a touch.
I personally
just went from a SSBOV to the Greddy, and am having a hard time
hearing it
enough to determine if I'm getting surge or not. Any
suggestions?
Ken Stanton
91 Pearl White Stealth TT
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gil Gomes" <
gil@3kgt.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11,
2003 2:59 PM
> I turned the screw one full revolution towards
soft... It seemed to
> make a difference. I didn't get the
stumble at all. I'm going to turn it
> 1/2 turn more for a margin of
safety. I'll thrash it a bit on the way
> home and we'll
see...
> -G
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:57:36 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: 3S-Racers: Re: Dyno plans...
Geoff Mohler wrote:
> Unfortunately, the only loading dyno I know of,
is only 2wd.
Matrix in Portland has an AWD Mustang Dyno, which AFAIK, can do loading all
that. So my subie friends tell me anyway. I'm headed down there when
I get my act together :-)
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#177
***************************************