Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Monday, May 26
2003 Volume 02 : Number 164
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:32:59 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: turbo question
I believe there is a company, or someone out there building adapter plates
for this turbo. The difference is the 9b uses a td04 housing, and the 14b
uses a td05h housing, so it doesn't bolt up...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 17:05:15 -0400
From: Vedran <
1994TT@comcast.net>
Subject: Team3S:
"Crank Walk" DSM owner's Nightmare ?? !!!!!!
I found an article about crank walk on DSM vehicles in the Import Tuner
magazine. Does anyone have more info on this issue because my 94tt died.
In the magazine they said that the symptoms include improper or inconsistent
clutch engagement, difficulty shifting and clutch pedals sticking in the down
position. I had every single problem on my car but he pedals sticking in
the down position. How do I check if I had the crank walk problem and if
my engine died because of this problem. You can find the article in the June
issue on the page 152.
Thanks
Vedran
94 TT
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 17:13:23 -0400
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
"Crank Walk" DSM owner's Nightmare ?? !!!!!!
What exactly is crank walk???
Alex.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:19:59 -0700
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: "Crank Walk" DSM owner's Nightmare ?? !!!!!!
> What exactly is crank walk???
a ".10sec" search on Google turned up one of "gobs" of topics....
of the many causes of CW is an overly aggressive racing/high performance
pressure plate/clutch, such as the ACT....the high backpressures (which are not
necessary btw) can contribute to CW.
Google "crank walk" or "crankwalk"....you will find plenty to read.
:)
regards,
terry
"If it doesn't make you go fast, we don't sell it"
Grd4Spd Racing -
www.grd4spd.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 17:02:59 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: "Crank Walk" DSM owner's Nightmare ?? !!!!!!
High backpressures??? Um.. no... No clutch should cause that
problem as the clutch is semi-floating... This has been hashed and
rehashed time and time again...
Crankwalk is when the crank literally walks out of its journals - ends up
damaging the crank position sensor first, and as the bearings move off the
races, you get broken rods, etc...
Generally, first signs of crankwalk are stalling going around certain
turns, improper clutch disengagement, etc... The cause - Mitsu didn't
reinforce the crank journals enough on the 7 bolt (flywheel) motor version of
the 4g63. At the same time, they reduced bearing sizes all throughout the
motor, used smaller rods, and smaller journals. Different piston oil squirters
were also used, and it is thought that low oil pressure can cause crankwalk to
happen too... The newer motor looks good on paper for stock power, and
making it easier (lighter weight rotating mass inside the motor), but under
increased power, the weaker internals give way much quicker...
Crankwalk can happen on any motor, it just happens more often on the 7 bolt
4g63 motor...
Also, I assume you meant high pressure plate clamping force?
Actually, that is necessary with some of the higher powered DSM's out there...
The 2600 lb pressure plate is very common and good for 400-450 hp. The
2100 plate is good for 325ish, and it doesn't take much to get there. Also, on a
AWD car, the clutch takes a lot of abuse...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 20:03:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bret Duvall <
teeminus@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Tagging fuel for Nitrous
Hello All-
I was wondering if any of you twin turbo owners have a
nitrous kit in
your car. I have a '93 VR4 and just
installed a ZEX nitrous kit but the
only part I can't
find good advice on is where to tap in to get fuel
to
the ZEX computer. Any advice is welcome.
Thanks!
- -Bret
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 20:21:54 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: turbo question
I know what you are talking about. The DSM TD04 turbo (not the TD05) can be
put on our cars. The exhaust housing is different, so you have to use your
existing one. It is very easy to adapt. There was a huge thread on 3si about it
months back. Some guys doing it and having great effects. Haven't heard much
about power gains, but I do know there some cars running around with that
setup.
I don't know how familiar you are with how our turbo breaks down but here
is the short version of what has to be done. You have to take apart your DSM
turbo, keep the "guts" and the intake housing. Then take the exhaust housing off
of your 3S turbo. The two will not mate up because the key pin and pinhole will
not line up. You have to measure out what the relative mounting points should be
and then drill your own pinhole to make the two mate. Alternatively, you can
just shave off the pin. From then on it should just bolt up. The only other snag
is that your wastegate actuator arm will be about 1" too short, so you have to
rig an extension of some sort for it to reach the wastegate. Dozens of ways to
do that, I am sure you can figure it out.
Look on 3si.org for the guy that invented that method. The thread is
gigantic. Note, do not confuse this with the TD05 adaptor plate that has been in
the works for 2 years. Totally different turbo, totally different animal.
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:22:26 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: turbo question
> I don't know how familiar you are with how our
> turbo breaks
down but here is the short version
> of what has to be done. You have to
take apart
> your DSM turbo, keep the "guts" and the intake
>
housing. Then take the exhaust housing off of
> your 3S turbo. The two
will not mate up because
> the key pin and pinhole will not line up. You
have
> to measure out what the relative mounting points
> should be
and then drill your own pinhole to make
> the two mate.
First off, the exhaust turbine on the TD05 is significantly larger
(and
thicker) than on the TD04 exhaust housing. The center cartridge
also won't just plug into the stock TD04 housings (either side). Anyone
interested in doing a TD05 upgrade should either get the adapter kit from
JustPerformance.com or a full turbo kit from Altered Atmosphere or one of the
other vendors who sell them.
> Look on 3si.org for the guy that invented that method.
> The
thread is gigantic. Note, do not confuse this with
> the TD05 adaptor
plate that has been in the works for
> 2 years. Totally different turbo,
totally different animal.
Right. Keeping the TD05-14B intact is the right way to do it.
Trying to hack its pieces into a 9B's housings (which by the way would require
significant machining to get the wheels to fit - and then would still be a vast
downgrade from a true TD05 turbo) is the wrong way to do it.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 00:50:16 -0400
From: "Rodriguez,
Elpidio x35617d1" <
x35617@exmail.usma.army.mil>
Subject:
Team3S: Repost: Wrecked '94 VR-4
Well, I've had several deals fall through trying to sell this because
people don't follow through so I'm posting this again one last time. This
is a '94 VR-4 that I wrecked about 6 months ago. It has a brand new (not
rebuilt) short block straight from Mitsu (about 2400 miles on it) with the
following parts as well:
timing belt
timing pulley & tensioner
water pump
oil
pump
new valves
t-stat
new accessory belts
denso iridium
plugs
magnecor kv85 wires
K&N FIPK (from a talon I believe, it's
actually slightly bigger than the one for the 3K) straight through down pipe (no
cat, I can dig around at home if you want the
cat)
Only bad thing with
engine is bad rear turbo but easily repaired once engine is out.
I'm asking $4000 or best reasonable offer for the WHOLE car. I will NOT
part it out. Let me say it again. I will NOT part it out. I don't have
time or tools to do it so please don't ask even for the smallest part. As you
can see from the pics, the car might be repairable but probably not worth the
effort so basically I'm selling the engine and anything else you can salvage
that is not damaged. Pretty much if you take the engine out and part out the
rest on your own, you'll offset the cost of the engine by a pretty good
amount.
The car is in NY. I'm leaving NY this weekend and I want to sell this
before I leave so price is very negotiable. Buyer would have to arrange shipment
of the car as I'll be gone and out of country for about a month after I leave.
Send questions if you are seriously interested only b/c I honestly don't have
time to answer petty questions from "window shoppers", no offense to
anyone.
E.RDZ
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 01:03:51 -0600
From: "Donald Ashby" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: turbo question
(I'm sharing this with the list as it appears other people are also
interested) Here let me show you the work I've done, take a look at the 3 turbos
side by side (9b,13g,14b), once you have you'll realize there's no way in hell
the 14b is going in there.
http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142833The
main thing I want to point out is the picture comparing the center cartridges:
http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1338246Now
compare that to the exhaust housing size:
http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1338254(Note
the td04 in the picture is a DSM td04 manifold with 4 bolt pattern instead of
the 3000GT which is a 3 bolt.) The way people modify the 13g to bolt onto a 3/S
is to take the center cartridge and put it into the stock exhaust housing, which
works perfectly since its exactly the same size as the exhaust housing it came
with (the 4 bolt one), so nothing goes wrong there. Now if you look at the 14b
you'll notice 2 things that will make that not work, first the center cartridge
is HUGE, it will never fit onto a td04 housing, second is the bearing size
comparison shot, the td05 actually uses a larger center section, which makes it
so you can't just bolt a 14b onto a 13g center section and poke it through a
td04 housing, because the holes are different sizes and the turbo would be
moving all around.
After everything I did I found there would be 3 fairly easily
accomplishable ways of bolting a td05 turbo up.
1) Take stock exhaust housing
and dsm td05 exhaust housing to a machine shop, have them make a td05 housing
with a 3 bolt instead of 4 bolt.
2) Take 14b wheel, send it to a turbo repair
shop along with your center cartridge, have them fill the 14bs center hole, and
drill it out to balance it onto the 13g turbine.
3) Use the adapter plates to
bolt stock 14bs onto stock manifolds. (really didn't feel that adapter plates
were worth $600 no matter how much effort went into them)
In the end I decided the point was moot because the 14b has the crappiest
flow characteristics I've ever seen, if you're going to go to all the work, use
a 14G, they are much more efficient, had a price quoted to me of $140 per 14G
wheel, so depending on which route you take you could get a full 14G setup for
under $1000 with a lot of leg work and research. Donald Ashby '93 3000GT VR-4
(RIP) "Don't drink and park, accidents cause people!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 01:16:31 -0600
From: "Donald Ashby" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: turbo question
You obviously didn't read the first part of his message:
"The DSM TD04
turbo (not the TD05) can be put on our cars." He's talking about the 13g not the
14b. Here is the post Tyson mentioned about the extensive write up:
http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100066Hobbit
wrote it.
Donald Ashby
'93 3000GT VR-4 (RIP)
"Don't drink and park,
accidents cause people!"
------------------------------
I am contemplating a turbo upgrade for road racing purposes, but all the
designations and terminology being thrown around just confuse my lil ol pea
brain. Jack T offered me some advice, such as “if you want to chance 15G or 17G
upgrades...I think they spool well enough that a 5-10 degree clip on the turbine
would be ok for some top end power...Of course, I went 125.76mph on 15G's with
TD05 turbine wheels in TD04 housings”
Hoo, boy. I don’t know WTF Jack is talking about.
1. Have any of you turbo wizards out there published a guide to turbo
upgrades? 2. What upgrades are available off the shelf? What do they cost? 3.
How do you get a “5-10 degree clip”? 4. Do yez agree with Jack on the best
turbos for road racing? (I don’t care about drag racing--I need sustained 15 psi
boost on race gas for long periods of WOT).
5. I have 560 injectors ready to
go in, plus a Stillen downpipe, K&N, cat back, Alamo intercoolers, and a
Supra pump already installed. What else do I need for a turbo upgrade?
Rich/slow old poop/94 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 07:40:45 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: turbo question
Matt, read the message before you start a reply. DSM cars (depending on
trim and year) came with TD05 AND TD04 turbos. The original question refers to
the TD04 found on 1G Automatic DSMs amongst others. These are a TD04, same
housings, just a different bolt pattern on the header side which require no
plates or adaptors, just a simple housing swap.
In case you didn't catch it (since you are not so good
at
reading/comprehending) this is a *SLAP*
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:04:55 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: turbo question
> In case you didn't catch it (since you are not so good at
>
reading/comprehending) this is a *SLAP*
You're right - I obviously misread your message. No reason to be an
ass though. You'd think with all the help I've given people over the years
on this list perhaps a little slack would be cut.
Apologies to all for my mistake.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:51:54 -0500
From: "xwing" <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
Need Turbo lessons
I don't know what DR500 or 650 are exactly. If something is 'like a
Mitsu 13G' anyway, I have a bias toward getting the direct-from-Mitsu Heavy
Industries 13G, without having it taken apart/fiddled with/screwed up
(potentially). I just think the reliability factor takes a hit whenever
ANYbody else messes with them. My 13G's were dead reliable and I beat crap
out of them. Once opened up, converted to 15G, and especially 17G they
never lasted as long before wear issues/oil smoke problems.
Clipping the turbine wheel is where they open turbo up, take the turbine
wheel and machine off a small amount of the blades, so there is more "void" and
less "blade"; this makes for more airflow (for more top end HP by
less
backpressure) but with less blade it is not as efficient and spool up is
decreased somewhat. Our stock 9b turbines are SO small that a little flow
there can help, and spool can remain quite good. I dunno if it's worth the
time and $ to clip them; once you want more than 13G, gotta think about 15G
(mine were pretty reliable overall)...and Matt Monett can steer you on above-13G
bolt-in turbos. If he supports them for wear for a couple years, great. If
you like the stock turbos, you will love the 13G's. Gain 50hp right off
the bat.
You will need a fuel computer to adjust for those 560 injectors. I
like the ARC2; I guess Apex'i AFC now work ok too. AEM if you want to do
that, but there are still teething issues. JT
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:55:55 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: turbo question
> In the end I decided the point was moot because the 14b
> has
the crappiest flow characteristics I've ever seen, if you're going
> to
go to all the work, use a 14G, they are much more efficient, had a
>
price quoted to me of $140 per 14G wheel, so depending on which route
>
you take you could get a full 14G setup for under $1000 with a lot of
>
leg work and research.
Donald, can you elaborate on why you felt the 14B had crappy flow
characteristics? Looking at the 14B and 14G maps side-by-side they look to
me about the same relative performance. While the 14G looks to have better
mid-island efficiency numbers, it has inferior spool compared to the 14B, as
well as lower peak ratio and the peak spans a much narrower RPM range.
If you are running 15 psi of boost like most people, the 14G theoretically
spools to full boost almost 1000 RPM later than the 14B does. I guess I
just don't see how there's a clear-cut case that the 14G is better.
Obviously the maps don't tell the whole story, but I don't have any
real-world experience with the 14G so that's all I have to look at. I'm
still trying to learn as much as I can about turbo choices for these cars, and
real-world information is a little tough to come by. I no longer have my
15G turbos, and have switched to 14Bs (for better exhaust flow mostly), and if
that's not good enough I will switch to Big 16Gs. Unless there's something
I've overlooked...
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:04:27 -0600
From: "Jim Floyd" <
jim_floyd7@earthlink.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Need Turbo lessons
Jack,
My understanding of the DR500 is that they are 13G with the clipping of the
turbine wheel.
Jim
------------------------------
Thanks, Jack.
13Gs are looking better all the time.
>and Matt Monett can steer you on above-13G bolt-in turbos. If he
>supports them for wear for a couple years, great.
Matt, you’re on!
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:25:55 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Need Turbo lessons
Hey Rich,
I will share what I know on the matter. I have been doing heavy turbo
research past few months since I am building a race motor and upgrading
EVERYTHING on the car.
1. Stealth316.com has a great turbo explanation write-up with flow maps and
everything else you would want. Go there, Jeff did a great job (as usual).
2. Well you have 2 routes. Ether get headers and O2 housings to handle
non-TD04 housings or stick with the TD04 variety. Reason you would want
something other than TD04 is because the housing itself is pretty small so it is
limiting on what it can do. However cost of headers etc is pretty high and
having as our engine is pretty small to start with (3L) the TD04 housings with
proper internals are worth looking into. The choices with TD04 are 13G's (found
on Euro Spec cars and some DSMs), DR500, DR650, ShockleyPerformance 15G and a
few others. The non-TD04 list is long but filled with experimental and project
setups. The most promising are the TD05 found on DSMs and the Garrett T3.
3. Clipping is something that is done with larger turbos. Because our
engine displacement is so small, there is not very much exhaust gas to move a
large turbo in the low RPMs. The solution is to clip the compressor wheel making
so it can spin easier. This obviously causes the compressor wheel to move less
air. (JT if you think clipping helps with pressure, you should try to "clip"
your whole wheel by removing it all together ) Effectively, it makes the turbo
spool faster at the expense of top-end pressure.
4. That is exactly what I am looking for. When the adaptor plate setup for
the TD05 is done, it *should* be the coolest thing. However, don't hold your
breath, they have been going at it for 2 years now. I heard something about a
few sets being shipped, but the way they were made, I am interested in what
performance they will have. Looking at the way it was done, I personally don't
think it will work too well; better than stock for sure, but not nearly as good
as it should be. To answer your question, I think the DR500 is the way to go.
The ShockleyPerformance turbo sounds like its the same thing as the DR500 and
its cheaper (about $400 less) but I don't know anyone that runs them...
5. Knock control. Water, Alcohol, Methanol or Propane to control knock. You
are going to hit that very soon (14-15PSI) on non-race gas. Do your own research
there, that's a whole topic of it's own. Bottom line, strapping on turbos does
not give you any power. Getting boost quicker, getting more boost and being able
to control that boost is what gives you power.
Another thing you should watch for are the oversized TD04 turbos. DR500,
650, ShockleyPerformance, etc that use the TD04 housing and bore it out to fit
the larger internals. Problem is, turbos get hot, VERY HOT! With some of the
sets (17G, DR650) I have seen, they take out so much metal that I have to wonder
how that thing will stay together and not crack or warp after hard runs.
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:25:55 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Need Turbo lessons
I spoke with DR a few days ago. They told me that its a Hybrid turbo most
closely matched in performance to 15G. They use a Garrett T3 compressor wheel on
a 15G exhaust setup. Guy claimed over the phone that with ported heads I would
see 15PSI at 2500RPM and hold 18-20PSI to redline... If that's even remotely
true, I will be super happy with my set...
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:53:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "dunkin" <
dunkin@netcarrier.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Clutch problems/Changing the clutch
At least I think its a clutch problem.
Never changed a clutch yet but I'm thinking about doing it soon on my 1991
3000GT VR4. Hopefully it is a little easier than the 60k tune-up I also
just did. Some questions though bought the car about two years ago.
First owner put a new RPS clutch in at least so he said he did. I put very
few miles on the car since then. Here's what I'm experiencing ....
When I push in or let go of the clutch pedal I feel a little click in the clutch
pedal. Is this normal? Its in the same spot about half way to the
floor. Also coming out of first on a hard run up to about 4500RPMS I hear
a clunk clunk when I push the clutch pedal down to go into second. Doesn't
happen when I drive it nice just when driven a little hard. At first I
thought it was a loose engine mount but I don't think that's the problem.
Any ideas??? Badly installed clutch I'm assuming. Anyone who has
done a clutch please give me some input. Special tools? Tips and
tricks on dropping the tranny? Bleed the clutch? What else should I
replace or check for? Any how-to web sites to kinda help out. I have
the factory manual just want some more input be! fore I'm knee deep.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:11:20 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Clutch problems/Changing the clutch
Darius,
Bleed your clutch first and if that doesn't work, have another S3 member
look at it. The problems you are describing are not worth the work you are
setting out to do. I have done the 60k and the clutch and in a process of a new
motor right now. The clutch is a PITA! You will need at least 2 people for it
and if nobody there had done it before, plan for 2 days at least. Far as special
tools, you don't "need" anything but a clutch alignment tool helps.
Again, back to your problems, make sure that its not tyranny related.
However based on your description I would say its the throwout bearing or the
fork doing something weird. Once you get the clutch and pressure plate on with
the tranny assembled to the block, there isn't really a wrong way to put it
on...
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:39:06 -0600
From: "Donald Ashby" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: turbo question
Well first of all you are not going to be seeing boost as soon as you would
from any td04 turbo. Just because of the unrestrictiveness of the exhaust
housing it will take longer. So this is how I understand it, and if anyone has
information contradictive to this please speak up: With the td05 turbos you will
have much more lag for 2 reasons, the first is the turbine, less exhaust hitting
it leads to more lag, the second is the sheer size of them, the
turbine/compressor wheel of the 14b easily weighed twice as much as the 13g,
more rotational mass means more energy required to get it to spin. Alright, so
now we have a turbo that is going to take longer to start spinning, if you look
at the 14b compared to the 14g at any given turbo rpm the 14g will be pushing
more air then the 14b, that is why I think it is more efficient, it reaches
almost a CR of 3 at 150,000 rpm, the 14b has to be spinning at 170,000 to get
that high. Now the part I'm not sure of is just how long will the 14b take to
get to 170,000 as opposed to the 14g getting to 150,000. I can't imagine it
taking too much longer to get to 170, but when you already consider these turbos
are laggy, I really didn't want to add even more lag to the setup. That and like
you said the 14g has a bigger island of efficiency, it isn't as huge of a point
if you have a good intercooler or WI or propane injection, but still every bit
helps. And as far as reaching boost nearly 1000 RPM sooner, I'm pretty sure the
two setups won't be that different, yes if you are looking at compressor maps
alone it looks like the 14b will set in boost a LOT quicker then the 14g,
however, like I said earlier I really don't think our cars will be pushing
enough exhaust through them to be getting to full boost at 3000 rpm. All this is
really theoretical since I have never had either of the 2 turbos on my car, but
not many people have had td05 turbos on their car. So take it with a grain of
salt until people start experimenting more. Donald Ashby '93 3000GT VR-4 (RIP)
"Don't drink and park, accidents cause people!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 10:38:30 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Need Turbo lessons
In a roadrace application spool up shouldn't be a big issue since
everything is going on at WOT --- 5K rpm and up seems to be the norm. OTOH
you're not likely to need 22 psi to redline unless you're a madman like me. 15G
is probably a good choice for most --- with 550 injectors you can't support more
power anyway.
The AIM is NOT for the amateur, it requires the level of knowledge
attributed to people like our venerable and beloved Jack T.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:49:46 -0600
From: "Donald Ashby" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Need Turbo lessons
I am contemplating a turbo upgrade for road racing purposes, but all the
designations and terminology being thrown around just confuse my lil ol pea
brain. Jack T offered me some advice, such as "if you want to chance 15G or 17G
upgrades...I think they spool well enough that a 5-10 degree clip on the turbine
would be ok for some top end power...Of course, I went 125.76mph on 15G's with
TD05 turbine wheels in TD04 housings"
Hoo, boy. I don't know WTF Jack is talking about.
>>1. Have any of you turbo wizards out there published a guide to
turbo
>>upgrades?
Yep, jeff lucius did:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htm,
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm>>2.
What upgrades are available off the shelf? What do they cost?
13Gs would cost
you about $200-$500 if you built them yourselves doing the DSM swap, 13Gs from a
shop will run 1200-1500, 15gs 1400-1700, and so on.
>>3. How do you get
a "5-10 degree clip"?
The clip is referring to taking material off the edge
of the turbine wheel, less turbine wheel surface area leads more lag, but a
better top end because of the unrestrictiveness of it. If you are only going to
be running 15 psi I would recommend against the clip, clipping them leads to
more lag but higher top end, it really is a trade off, decide if you want more
low end power or more top end power and choose.
>>4. Do yez agree with
Jack on the best turbos for road racing? (I don't
>>care about drag
racing--I
need sustained 15 psi boost on race gas for long periods of WOT).
If you only need to hold 15psi to redline I would recommend 15Gs, the 13s would
be able to do it, but you would really be pushing their efficiency when you get
that high. I think 17s would be overkill and the added lag wouldn't be worth it
for your needs.
>>5. I have 560 injectors ready to go in, plus a
Stillen downpipe, K&N,
>>cat back, Alamo
intercoolers, and a
Supra pump already installed. What else do I need for a turbo upgrade? If you're
only going to be pushing 15 psi to redline you should be fine, you will need a
fuel controller to keep it in check though. You could always go with bigger
injectors, 660s will give you some nice timing advance and with only running 15
psi you wouldn't need to be too concerned about knock, but if you already have
560s there's no point in buying a different set of injectors.
If you have any other questions email me back and if I can't answer em I'll
point you to someone who can.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:46:02 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Need Turbo lessons
> 3. Clipping is something that is done with larger
> turbos.
Because our engine displacement is so
> small, there is not very much
exhaust gas to move
> a large turbo in the low RPMs. The solution is
to
> clip the compressor wheel making so it can spin
> easier. This
obviously causes the compressor
> wheel to move less air. (JT if you think
clipping
> helps with pressure, you should try to "clip" your
>
whole wheel by removing it all together )
> Effectively, it makes the
turbo spool faster at the
> expense of top-end pressure.
Unless I'm seriously mistaken, this is completely backwards.
Typically the exhaust turbine wheel is clipped to allow for better exhaust flow
on the top-end, and makes spool more leggy as a result. That's the way its
been on all the clipped DSM turbos I've used and installed in the past.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:01:22 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: turbo question
> All this is really theoretical since I have never had either of the 2
> turbos on my car, but not many people have had td05 turbos on their
> car. So take it with a grain of salt until people start experimenting
> more.
With any luck, the TD05-14Bs will be installed on the car this next
weekend, and after I have a little time to tune in my EMS I'll report whatever
numbers I can as far as spool up and such. I'll be using the
Just-Performance.com adapter plates and O2 housings, not true headers on my car
so the way mine is set up is not a best-case scenario for the TD05 setups.
June 28th I'll be taking the car to the dragstrip for Test and Tune day to get
some tuning for high boost power and will report the boost curve for these
turbos as well. If all goes well, we'll see what it can do at the National
Gathering and the Diamond Star Shootout.
Hopefully other people getting JPDC's kit will report some information for
the other turbos as well (small 16G, big 16G, etc.).
Like you said, its still experimental. :-)
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 14:20:04 -0400
From: Russ Williams <
3000gt@wildweaselweb.com>
Subject:
Team3S: More Power on a Non-Turbo?
Does anyone know of what type of upgrades can be put on a non-turbo
3000GT to up the Power in it? I could use suggestions on Brands of
Headers, Fuel Injectors, etc. Any help with a list of products I may
want to consider would be great. I have a 1995 3000GT.
Thanks,
Russ
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:44:53 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: turbo question
> Has anyone ever mounted a 14b turbo from a dsm
> onto their
stealth or 3000? If so was there a certain
> part needed?
Songsay, in case you missed the information because of the little sidetrack
on the list, here's a link to the guys who sell the parts you were
referring
to:
At this point, all the current kits are sold and production of the next set
will be around 8-10 weeks after the current kits are delivered (hopefully done
this week). The full install kit with everything you'll need (other than
turbos) is $600. You may need some upgraded fuel system components to make
the most of it (injectors, fuel pump, fuel controller).
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#164
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