Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, April 30
2003 Volume 02 : Number 143
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:45:44 -0600
From: "Donald Ashby" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Help finding a webpage
There was a webpage I'm pretty sure on Jeff's site that talked about how
much of an increase in flow there is going from 2.5" to 3" piping. Or something
like that, does anyone know the site off hand or was I hallucinating? Donald
Ashby '93 3000GT VR-4 (RIP) "Don't drink and park, accidents cause
people!"
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:42:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Help finding a webpage
You also lose velocity..velocity is largely important as well.
Just depends what your WHOLE system it like.
- ---
**Now offering replacement
Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Porsche/SAAB/Volvo parts!**
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:46:12 -0600
From: Janice Findlay <
jefind@shaw.ca>
Subject: Team3S:
nitrous
I put a Zex 55hp shot dry nitrous system on my 93 Dodge Stealth R/T
non-turbo and it is adjustable to 75hp. I have put in a cooler range spark
plug but I haven't adjusted the timing any. I was told by Zex I should be
alright as long as I stay at 55hp, is that true? What would I have to do
for mods if I wanted to up the jet size safely? Thanks
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Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:28:29 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Data logger for Second Gen
At 08:43 AM 4/29/2003, Starkey, Jr., Joseph wrote:
>The advantages
are not so obvious to me, Phillip. What do you see as
>the
advantages?
I said, we have not discovered the advantages yet. But a smaller 2nd gen
cam sensor saves a lot of weight!
Philip
------------------------------
Hello again everyone,
Does anyone know how to remove the cover over the bulbs above the rear
license plate holder on our cars. I tried using just a screw driver but they
seem pretty on there. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
------------------------------
I am thinking of getting an OBD11 handheld scanner which will work on our
cars. I have been informed that the OTC 3353, 2001 Monitor Elite Deluxe Set will
work on the 3000 GT (and a Lincoln Navigator - wife's car). Has any one on the
list used this or knows if it will work?
Andy Spargo
1999 VR4 - Middle East specs.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:17:16 -0500
From: "Darlene Madden" <
dmadden@selectis.com>
Subject:
Team3S: time to repaint 93 Stealth ES
I have been checking around for quotes on repainting my 93 Stealth ES and
am finding a wide variety on pricing. The body is in excellent condition except
for a large scrape along the driver side front end including the bumper. I have
gotten prices from $400 to $5000. Anybody have any comments or thoughts on why
this is the case? I'm sure there is a difference in quality, but that big a
difference? I always mention team3s wherever I go, so they know I am not some
dumb woman they can take advantage of. It really does help. Thanks for your
input. Darlene Madden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:39:49 -0400
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
time to repaint 93 Stealth ES
If you're talking about just repairing that scratch, then it shouldn't be
5k. My car was keyed all around and it cost 2k (and they did a good
job)...
Alex
'95 VR4
------------------------------
I would think that $400 for getting your car painted is a little
cheap. They would have to cut corners somewhere. Stick with the more reputable
shops, not so much the back yard painters (although some of them can really
paint.)
I do body work on the side, mostly custom stuff shaved door
handles, trunks, molded body kits, etc... and I know for a fact that taking a
scrape out is a little on the expensive side if they are doing it the correct
way(should be around $500).
I would assume though that the cheaper body
shops are going to jip you out of Clear coat, or primer, or just use all around
crappy paint. Again, stick to the more expensive places, and ask exactly what
prep work they are doing. Make sure the whole car is sanded down, primed, wet
sanded, primed again, painted with at least 2 coats of paint, then cleared. They
should be wet sanding between coats with a very high grit sandpaper, and then
painting again for a good solid grip for the second coat. If you are painting it
a different color, make sure that they are going to paint the insides of the
doors, and possibly where they can, any place that the original paint still is.
If not, make sure they either repaint the places where the original paint is, or
they blend it real close to the color of the paint now(orginal
color).
I'm not a pro, but this is what I would look for. As far as
quality paint goes, I would make sure it is a decent brand. I prefer 'House of
Colors' paint, but it is a little on the expensive side. But intend on being
short a car for at least a week for a decent quality paint job. Don't call
Maaco, they don't do prep work, they just paint over what you bring them.
Hope this helps.
Mike Guy
92 Stealth SOHC
PS: As far as the custom stuff I do, if any body is interested, the website
is
www.mafixcrew.com, crews, ronin
racing, William Olsen 87 Celica. This is the pride and joy of the club I am in.
Me and him did most of the work. Don't know if any good pics are up, but I think
there are some.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:03:10 -0500
From: "xwing" <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S:
RE: VCU, Torque Split
IMHO, our cars DO have a 45/55% torque split.
Why would Mitsubishi (and
other companies that have
used VCU's) LIE about their vehicles' torque
splits?
All these companies/engineers/powertrain
subcontractors like
Getrag LIE or don't know what they are talking about...or maybe WE have an
inadequate understanding of drivetrain theory. Which seems most
likely? I'm not so proud of my engineering prowess that I'd make blanket
statements that the torque split is NOT 45/55.
I don't disbelieve the engineers at Mitsubishi who, along
with
Getrag/Germany and GKN/Italy who built the VCU's, the AWD system for the 3S,
have always indicated that there is a 45%front/55% rear torque split baseline;
which then can vary from that based upon slippage front to rear. Something as
simple as a very slight effective final gearing of front vs rear wheels, leading
to a very slight mismatch in speed of "front wheel output" vs. "rear wheel
output" so the VCU is having a constant very slight slippage, biasing torque
thereby 55% rear, would give a baseline 45/55 split. Any INCREASE in
rotational speed difference would make the "torque biasing curve" of the VCU
vary from that baseline, so more or less torque is directed to the wheels with
less or more wheelspeed/spin. The VCU has a "differential limiting force"
capability; it can't transfer 10,000 lb-ft of difference to one end and 0 to the
other, it is limited to transferring maybe 220 lb ft or so (for older Lancer EVO
VCU) and after that torque biasing, you start to see wheelspin on the end with
less traction, though the end WITH traction still is getting at least 220 lb-ft
of torque applied for acceleration.
The VCU doesn't 'lock tight', it is designed NOT to lock (4WD style)
because then we'd be jerking around corners etc like my GMC truck in 4WD :)
...the VCU "resists" and directs a PROPORTION of torque to front/rear, dependent
on relative speeds of rear and front tire systems. Its RESISTANCE can be
overcome by applying more torque than its specification; this can cause more and
more slippage, and can heat up/burn out the VCU.
- ------
From the
Internet on VCU's:
The connection may also be made by a viscous-coupling unit (VCU), a sealed
canister or barrel-shaped device that's filled with thixotropic silicone fluid
and a series of interwoven plates resembling CDs in a changer magazine. One set
of these plates is attached to the drum shell, and the others are attached to a
driveshaft through the middle. As the speed varies between the two sets of
plates, because one driveshaft is rotating faster than the other (either by
turning or by wheels slipping), the silicone reacts to the heat being generated
by thickening, which in turn starts to limit the speed differential between the
two sides of the VCU. This allows the slip necessary to avoid binding, without
allowing one axle to spin while the other does nothing. Some VCUs have a locking
function for off-road use (Montero, Range Rover) while others do not (Escalade).
Vehicles with all-wheel drive use a differential-or viscous coupling or clutch
pack, depending on the vehicle's engineering-to maximize traction when needed.
As wheels begin to slip in these vehicles, more and more power is automatically
directed to the wheels where there is no slippage. The power shift can be
sizable, if necessary, and again, it's done without any input from the
driver.
The concept of the VCU, introduced on Classic Range
Rover, was a world
first for Land Rover. It is a canister between the front and rear
propshafts, filled with a silicone fluid sandwiched between steel plates. The
fluid has the characteristic of increasing its viscosity when stirred and
heated.
Discussion of Lancer EVO VII regarding its use
of an electrohydraulic
coupler rather than a VCU:
"The active center differential (ACD) is an
electronically controlled mechanical unit with a hydraulically actuated
multi-plate mechanism; the previous center differential had a viscous-coupling
limiter unit (VCU). The center differential's standard torque split ratio is
50/50. A multi-steel-plate clutch allows an increase in the limiting device's
binding capacity to 1000 N.m (738 lb.ft) from the VCU's 300 N.m (221 lb.ft). On
full acceleration, the ACD locks the center differential to almost direct 4WD,
while the quick application of steering lock almost fully loosens up the
differential. The driver may choose one of three ACD operating modes: Tarmac,
Gravel, and Snow."
The 4x4 system uses the center differential to regulate torque split
between front and rear wheels to secure traction in slippery conditions. When
the system detects any slippage in any of the wheels the VCU automatically
reapportions torque split in proportion to the rotational speed of the
differential between front and rear wheels.
Mitsu Pajero features ad:
"7. Torque split With new planetary gears
enabling a 33-67% front / rear torque split Smooth high concerning in 4WD 8.
Centre Differential VCY (Viscous Coupling Unit) Automatically varies the torque
proportion up to 50:50 rear to front Improving all round stability and off road
performance "
And, from J. Lucius own excellent site of tech articles, these paragraphs:
"Variable Torque Split:
Most
manufacturers of all-wheel drive cars boast that their system can vary torque
split a certain amount. A common way to rate torque split would be to say that
the upcoming Audi TT Quattro, which is primarily front-wheel drive until the
computer decides to send torque to the rear, is variable from 100/0 (front/rear)
when the clutch pack is disengaged, to 50/50 when the clutch pack is fully
locked. it could be argued, however, that the TT Quattro actually has the
capability of going to somewhere in the neighborhood of 20/80 or even 0/100 in
extreme situations. According to Hideki Ishido, VP of Product Planning for
Subaru, torque split actually depends on the grip available at each
wheel.
To see why this is true, imagine
a solid four-wheel drive car (with a fully loaded clutch pack, the TT could
theoretically act as one). You would assume that solid four-wheel drive always
has a 50/50 torque split, but according to Ishido, you would assume wrong. If
you actually put torque sensors on each driveshaft, you would see that torque
split is constantly changing.
"Without the differential and only the VC then power normally goes to only
one end of the car and the other end just floats along with the VC absorbing any
speed differences. If it's normally a front wheel drive car, and the front
wheels start to spin, then the pure VC starts transferring torque to the rear
wheels. Others, like Porsche and Lamborghini, have done it the other way around,
transferring torque to the front only when the rear tires slip. You'll see these
described with something like a 90/10 torque split because they design them to
always slip a little bit even when driving straight so that the VC will activate
quicker."
- ----------
Summary:
Our 3S ALSO have apparently "like a
45/55 torque split because they design them to always slip a little bit even
when driving straight so that the VC will activate quicker." We have a
"torque split in proportion to the rotational speed of the differential between
front and rear wheels." Simple, really. Instead of a new computer controlled
Audi, Mitsubishi etc clutchpack varying torque split from 0-100%, our 3S have a
VCU clutchpack that varies torque from a baseline 45/55 split to ?30/70 to
?60/40 depending on the relative slippage of either end of the car. What
OUR exact values of
+/- torque split capability are, who knows.
That's my
opinion, based on engineering articles, ads and magazine statements of "torque
splits" other than 50/50; as well as the opinion of Mitsubishi, Audi, Porsche,
Getrag, all of whom have similarly cited such "torque splits" via VCU's.
(Our cars 45/55, Pajero 33/67, Porsche 10/90 etc). I am happy to have such major
engineering expertise and information backing this mere OPINION. I could
be wrong, but I have alot of backing.
At LEAST we might avoid blanket statements like 'Of COURSE the split
is 50/50, I've proved it on my website'. Whoa. It HASN'T been proved
50/50. Many DON'T accept that; myself, Mitsubishi, Rover, Porsche, etc engineers
among them. We (Mitsu, I and others) think 3S have a baseline 45/55% front/rear
torque split, that can vary via the VCU to aid traction when needed. But we
could be wrong. :) since we ALL should have "IMHO", IMHO... JT
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:35:37 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Help finding a webpage
If Donald is talking about IC piping, velocity is not really much of a
consideration. However, for exhaust piping, velocity is very important.
Flow in piping or other components (such as MASs) must always be described
using volume flow and pressure loss. Mentioning either one or the other gives no
usable information.
Flow increases proportional to the ~2.5th power of the pipe inside diameter
in *smooth* pipe at the *same pressure loss* for turbulent flow (Reynolds
numbers greater than 4000), which is the normal situation in IC piping (or
tubing, whatever) from my calculations. I have not calculated Reynolds number
for gas in the exhaust tubes.
On the other hand, at the same flow volumes, pressure loss is inversely
proportional to the inside diameter and absolute pressure. Loss increases
(non-linearly) with air volume flow.
So when comparing flow in a 3" tube/pipe compared to one that has a 2.5"
ID, flow increases by 1.577 or about 58% with the same pressure loss in both
pipes.
You can use tables to determine pressure loss (see links on Clean Dry Air's
page above). Larger pipes and higher pressures each result in lower pressure
loss. Higher volume flow increases pressure loss (non-linearly).
Examples in smooth pipe/tube:
3" ID, 300 cfm, 15 psi pressure --->
0.30 psi loss per 100'
3" ID, 500 cfm, 15 psi pressure ---> 0.78 psi loss
per 100'
3" ID, 500 cfm, 40 psi pressure ---> 0.43 psi loss per 100' 2.5"
ID, 500 cfm, 40 psi pressure ---> 1.31 psi loss per 100' 2.0" ID, 500 cfm, 40
psi pressure ---> 3.16 psi loss per 100' 1.5" ID, 300 cfm, 40 psi pressure
---> 4.29 psi loss per 100'
Summary:
Going to a 3" ID pipe from a 2.5" ID should increase volume
flow ~58% at the same pressure loss, or it will decrease pressure loss (maybe
0.05 to 0.1 psi over 10 feet) at the same volume flow.
Comments:
Stock IC piping (1.5") is undersized when using turbos that
can each flow 400 cfm or more. 3" exhaust piping is close to ideal for all but
the highest output 3S engines.
You also lose velocity..velocity is largely important as well.
Just depends what your WHOLE system it like.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:50:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Casey Spivey <
spiv99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S:
stroker kit
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:36:19 -0500
From: "Steve" <
denon11@insightbb.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Changing The License Plate Bulbs
HI, Marven
As you have found out the screws
wont cone out
because they are rusted and there is no way to apply heat. There is two ways you
can do this.
Remove the bottom bumper cover the that has the plastic screws.
Then you can try to remove the bulb socket by turning it counter clockwise but
it is hard to maneuver up there. Or you can remove the licenses plate and remove
the entire bracket. But as far as I know there is no other options.
Regards, Steve
Artic White 1995 3000GT SL
- -----Original Message-----
From: Marven Lamarre
Sent: Tuesday,
April 29, 2003 11:25 PM
Hello again everyone,
Does anyone know how to remove the cover
over the bulbs above the rear license plate holder on our cars. I tried using
just a screw driver but they seem pretty on there. Any suggestions would be
appreciated.
- --- Marven Lamarre
- ---
neoblackjack21@earthlink.net-
--- 1992 Dodge Stealth Non-Turbo
"Catch Me If You Can"
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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#143
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