Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, April 29
2003 Volume 02 : Number 142
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:26:03 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Data logger for Second Gen
>> It seems like the 91-93 cars rely on the cam sensor signal more
than
>> the 94+ cars to determine the correct timing for the ignition
and
>> fuel injection events. The 94+ cars use the crank sensor
more.
According to all service manuals (I have various ones covering 1992 thru
1999), the crank angle sensor and cam position sensor (also called the TDC
sensor) are used exactly the same in all DOHC models and years. The ECU uses
rules that are explained in the STIM (p. 14-17 & 14-18) to combine the two
signals to determine when to fire the spark plugs for each cylinder. The only
difference between 1991-1992 and 1993 plus models is the location of the two
sensors and how the sensors work. For 1991-1992 models, the CAS/CAS are both in
the same housing mounted on the rear end of the left intake cam. For 1993+
models, the sensors are separated and located down by the front of the
block.
From my web site:
"The 1991-1992 sensors uses a single disk with concentric rings of slots
cut into it along with two LEDs and two photodiodes. As a slot passes between an
LED and photodiode a small amount of current is generated by the photodiode as
the LED light hits it. The outer ring has 6 slots and represents the crankshaft
position sensor. The inner ring has 4 slots and represents the top dead center
(TDC) sensor (also called the camshaft position sensor). The engine control unit
uses both these signals to determine which cylinder is on either the compression
or exhaust stroke (it makes no difference with our three coils and wasted spark
ignition system). This information is used for ignition timing."
"I have not looked at the sensors on 1993+ models, but from the service
manuals, it looks like notch-position sensors are used. This type of sensor
contains a variable-reluctance sensor that generates a voltage pulse from the
decrease in magnetic flux as a notch in a disk passes by it. Whatever the type
of sensor the 1993+ models use, the sensors put out the same number of pulses as
the 1991-1992 sensors."
>> Utilizing the crank sensor for ignition timing alone, probably
>> allowed Mitsubishi to increase the safe boost level by 20 HP when
>> they went to the 2nd gen ECU's. The 4-bolt crank mains was just a
way
>> to support the increased horsepower.
Well since Mitsu uses the sensors exactly the same way in all years for
DOHC engine, forget the stuff about "safe boost". Also, 20 bhp is hardly a
reason to change crank design, especially since the factory 1991-1992 crank is
widely reported to reliably hold 500 bhp. I imagine the crank change was just
part of the normal upgrade process manufacturers go through.
As far as Jim's question goes "Are there no benefits to the '94-'95 ECU?"
The answer IMHO is yes, there are no benefits to a '94-'95 ECU. :) These
intermediate model years offer no real performance, reliability, or engine
monitoring advantage compared to other years.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:28:07 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Data logger for Second Gen
I'll second that, Matt.
I recently set the basic timing on my '92 (after changing the CAS/CAS) and
saw just what you report.
Rock steady timing mark with timing terminal grounded and unsteady mark
without grounding the terminal. Unfortunately there is no way to document this
with a datalogger. The datalogger or MUT grounds terminal 10 (1st gen) in the
diagnostic connector. So when the timing terminal is grounded also, the ECU goes
into "basic idle speed adjustment" mode rather than "basic ignition timing"
mode.
But I can report (and logged) that when the mechanic that rebuilt my engine
set the timing very poorly (over 60 deg BTDC indicated with a dial back timing
light), the idle was very poor (I had to tighten the throttle cable until idle
speed was over 1000 RPM) and datalogs showed more erratic than usual timing
variations at idle. It took me while to figure out what he screwed up.
I was hoping the CAS was the cause of the "jittery" RPM "signal" I see
above 4500 RPM on the datalogs. Lacking an oscilloscope to check the CAS output,
I bit the (financial) bullet and replaced it. The RPM signal still looks the
same. Some DSM owners report the same datalogged RPM signal jitters. However,
some Stealth and DSM owners have a smooth RPM datalog. I searched the DSM logger
email list archives and never found a cause or solution for this problem.
Obviously the engine speed is not varying by +/- 300-500 RPM when accelerating.
I just wonder if the "RPM jitters" are a product of the datalogger link or does
the ECU really try to use a jittery signal?
If you ground the timing control test terminal, then the timing is pretty
much
rock-solid at 5 degrees BTDC on any year 3/S. Without the
terminal grounded,
the ECU varies timing by about 3-5 degrees to produce a
more stable idle and
reduce emissions.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:58:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kian Habib <
ill1027@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S:
cost of tranny, wheels etc for vr-4
I am considering buying a certain vr-4 but there a
couple nagging things
about it. For one there is a
strange sound when it is shifting to 4th gear. I
was
wondering what this could be and the approximate cost
of fixing or
replacing a vr-4 tranny. The other
question I had was how much I could get
some chrome
rims for the vr-4 for. They don't have to be new but I
really
like the look of them and the car I am
considering has alloys. Thank you for
your time
------------------------------
> I have a problem with my ECS system, I have the tour/sport
light
> flashing, I have checked the blink codes and determined the
fault
> as code 62 F.L. actuator abnormal.
Here is a quick 5-minute test: swap the wiring connector/strut caps
on the right and left sides, then read the fault code and see if it stays with
the strut or moves with the connector. It's almost always the wiring in
the connector on one of the front struts. If you determine that it's the
connector, look very closely at the point where the wires enter the little round
black plastic connector (that plugs in to the top of the strut itself).
This point is where the wires often break due to someone leaning on the rubber
cap.
A caveat: A wire can be broken inside the insulation so that it
appears OK on visual inspection. It can also make intermittent contact so
that the volt meter sometimes shows continuity while you're holding the
connector, but won't work once you connect it up to the strut.
Roger Roskam
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:12:20 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Data logger for Second Gen
At 06:26 PM 4/28/2003, Jeff Lucius wrote:
>Also, 20 bhp is hardly a
reason to change crank design, especially
>since the factory 1991-1992
crank is widely reported to reliably
>hold 500 bhp. I imagine the crank
change was just part of the
>normal upgrade process manufacturers go
through.
The only upgrades that the US manufacturers do are those that they have to
do because they noticed some problems which happened in tests or
potentially could happen in service. I doubt that Mitsubishi is different.
The "regular upgrades" are usually tied to new model releases. This is when
the buyers are willing to pay for them.
>As far as Jim's question goes "Are there no benefits to the
'94-'95
>ECU?"
>The answer IMHO is yes, there are no benefits to a
'94-'95 ECU. :) These
>intermediate model years offer no real
performance, reliability, or engine
>monitoring advantage compared to
other years.
Well, Jeff, this is not the first time that you are... wrong! Remember our
AWD discussion about a year ago that you swept under the carpet? Read "Race
Car Vehicle Dynamics" by Milliken on p. 57* about the uneven torque split
differentials. They do exist! Please update your AWD page:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-awd3.htm#cdvcu
About the 94+ ECU's, there are some advantages to them, obviously. We just
did not get to them yet.
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:22:55 -0400
From: "Brian Collins" <
bcturbo@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: How often should high and middle fuel trims update?
I posted this on 3si but I though I would ask here as well. The
datalogger shows that the middle and high fuel trims on my 92 Stealth TT are
always 100% no matter how I change the settings on my SAFC or how I drive.
My low fuel trims change quite frequently. Does anyone have any idea what
could be
wrong, if anything? Has anyone on this list with a
datalogger or
pocketlogger ever noticed this? One other person on 3si
has the same symptoms.
Thanks.
Brian Collins
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:41:32 -0500
From: "Dan Hyde" <
danielhyde@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Alignment, Control Arms and Deer in Headlights
Ok Chuck...you made me go look in the manual. Some of this I have to
admit I don't understand (Steering Angle spec). I also poured over my last
alignment results sheet provided by the Mitsu Dealer and there are several
entries like Cross Camber, SAI and Thrust Angle on there that I didn't locate in
the manual. Curious stuff. One thing I noted was the Alignment
Results 'specified range' values do not match the manual in some cases.
The results sheet has a heading that indicated the specs are for
"Mitsubishi 3000GT (Including Spyder; 4x4 : 1997-1999". Could it be the
97-99's have
different specs than prior years?? I included the
contents of my results
sheet for those that might feel compelled to shed some
light on this topic. (I hope the table format/layout makes the trip without
getting destroyed) Dan
SERVICE SPECIFICATIONS (91-99 3000GT - from the manual)
FRONT SUSPENSION
Camber = 0º ± 30´
Caster =
3º 55´± 30´
Toe-in mm (in.) = 0 ± 3 (0 ± .12)
Steering angle
Inner wheel = 33º 34´
Outer
wheel = 28º 21´
REAR SUSPENSION (AWD)
Camber = -0º 10´ ±
30´
Toe-in mm (in.) = .5 ± 2.5 (.01 ± .09)
REAR SUSPENSION (FWD)
Camber = -0º ± 30´
Toe-in mm (in.) = .5 ± 2.5 (.01 ± .09)
Alignment Results: 02/20/03 1997 3000GT VR4 86,440
Miles
"Mitsubishi: 3000GT (Including Spyder; 4x4 : 1997-1999"
Front (Left & Right specified range): Left value; Right
value
Camber (-.5º to +.5º): -0.2º; 0º
Caster
(3.4º to 4.4º): 3.3º; 4.4º
Toe (-0.12º to + 0.12º): 0.00º;
0.01º
SAI (No info): 14.5º; 14.2º
Included Angle
(No info): 14.3º; 14.1º
Front (Specified range): Actual value
Cross Camber (No
info): -0.2º
Cross Caster (No info): -1.0º
Cross
SAI (No info): 0.3º
Total Toe (-0.34º to 0.24º): 0.01º
Rear (Left & Right specified range): Left value; Right
value
Camber (-0.7º to 0.3º): 0.1º; 0.0º
Toe
(-0.08º to 0.12º): 0.00º; 0.03º
Rear (Specified range): Actual value
Cross Camber (-0.3º to
0.3º): 0.0º
Total Toe (-0.16º to 0.23º): 0.03º
Thrust Angle (No info): -0.01º
Dan, nice description, but I think some will take issue with your "perfect"
0 degree camber - I think a couple of degrees negative camber is nice, front and
rear.
Chuck Willis
The net of all this is a set up that dials to *absolute perfect* mitsu
street spec (which I believe is 0 degree camber). My car always had a
tendency to subtly begin listing to the left not long after alignment.
That situation is gone.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:42:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Tse <
tse1631@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S:
for who request the 60k turn up list
Hi: Sorry for the delay. I need to look up my old message to find those
messages. Some of them are overlapped. Here is the list I got from other
members-Jim Matthews, Jeff, Riyan.... thanks again guys.
BELTS & HOSES
Timing Belt MD193874
Power Steering Belt
MD172376
Accessory Belt (A/C & alternator) MB879764
Radiator Lower
Hose MB845941
Radiator Upper Hose MB605459
PULLEYS
Timing Belt Tension Auto-Adjuster MD319040
Timing Belt
Tensioner Pulley MD140071
Timing Belt Idler Pulley
MD151447/MD319022
Alternator-A/C Lower Tensioner Pulley MD630326 ("AC
Compressor Tensioner Pulley") Alternator-A/C Upper Tensioner Pulley
MD161716/MD318474 ("Alternator Tensioner Pulley") Power Steering Tensioner
Assembly MD172379
ROUTINE/PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE
Water Pump MD972005
Thermostat
MD174234
Fuel Filter MB658136
GASKETS
Throttle Body Gasket MD180361
Intake Plenum Gasket
MD143791
Water Pump gasket (if needed - should come with
water
pump)
Cam oil seals 4x MD152603
Front crank oil seal
MD120700
Timing Belt Cover
Gaskets:
MD186411
MD140090
MD186420
MD186419
MD186421
MD186422
MD186423
MD191621
SPARK
Spark Plugs (Bosch Platinum 4201?)
Spark plug gaskets MD186787
(if needed - should come with plugs)
INTERNALS
new style lifters (will they really eliminate the
ticking? Part number?)
Water Pump MD972005
Timing Belt Tension Auto-Adjuster MD319040
Timing
Belt Tensioner Pulley MD140071
Timing Belt Idler Pulley MD151447/MD319022
(either part number is an OE replacement)
- ----
Here are the three accessory idler pulley part numbers:
Alternator-A/C Lower Tensioner Pulley MD630326
Alternator-A/C Upper
Tensioner Pulley MD161716/MD318474 (either part number is an OE replacement)
Power Steering Tensioner Assembly MD172379
as a side note, my Alternator-A/C Upper Tensioner Pulley was the one that
made the most noise. Since the bearings were dried up, it made a rattling noise
constantly, and a squeaky noise for awhile if I hadn't started the car for more
than 2 days. Also, realize that your squeaking noise could be due to old belts.
When belts get old, they stretch and lose tension. Temporary fix = increase
tension. But you're replacing them anyway.
- ----
Vacuum lines should be replaced only if you see cracks. I'd recommend
replacing the radiator hoses (upper and lower) at the 2x60k though:
Radiator Lower Hose MB845941
Radiator Upper Hose MB605459
- ----
My water pump did come with a new water pump gasket. Make sure you
double-check though. Your new spark plugs should come with new gaskets. Check
the resistance on your old plug wires. Replace them if they're out of spec or
marginal.
- ----
I would recommend getting all four cam oil seals (4xMD152603) as well as
the front crank oil seal (MD120700) replaced. If any of these seals start
leaking, then you could easily be buying a new engine when the timing belt
slips.
- ----
As a final warning, these parts were all looked up using my 93 stealth VIN.
All the part numbers should be compatible since my car falls under the new block
designation. However, I believe that some of the part numbers may have changed
across the board. For example, at least one of those tensioner pulleys had a
new, "more reliable" design and therefore had a new part number. The dealer was
able to look it up and cross reference it on the spot though, so yours should be
able to do the same.
Good luck, and enjoy the next 60k,
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:19:16 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Wheels Specification - Stealth R/T twin turbo
12x1.50 is the stud diameter and pitch.
Bolt Circle is 4.5" or 114.3 mm, and obviously, 5 lugs. There is no
real way of defining the "shape" of the spokes, you just have to confirm with
each manufacturer what wheels will/will not fit...
- -Cody
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger L. Skoglund
>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 10:44 AM
>
> I am looking for the exact
wheel specification on a 1991 Dodge Stealth
> R/T twin turbo. So
far I have found the wheel offset (that appears to
> be 46 mm (1.8
inches) for all the Stealth models), but I cannot find
> the
specification for the "lug diameter" (circle)?
>
> One more
question: is it possible to specify how far outboard the
> "spokes" on
the wheel must be, in order to clear the brake calipers ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:20:37 -0600
From: "Donald Ashby" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: If anyone's interested in what I do in my spare time
http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1341318#post1341318In
the process of building a 14b turbo into a TD04 compressor and exhaust housing.
Also discussing some of the effects of G style wheels compared to B style
wheels. If anyone has any experience or knowledge in the matter please chime in!
Donald Ashby '93 3000GT VR-4 (RIP) "Don't drink and park, accidents cause
people!"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:34:25 +0100
From: "Jim Matthews" <
jim@the-matthews.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: for who request the 60k turn up list
Here's the quote I received from MitsuPartsDirect for my '94 TT:
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Deal
[mailto:mike@mitsupartsdirect.com]
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003
Hi Jim,
The numbers you have look correct except the lower radiator hose, here are
the prices;
MD193874 $95.12
MD172376 $23.48
MB879764
$23.48
MR127620 lower hose $13.69
MB605459
$13.63
MD319040 $80.04
MD140071 $22.03
MD319022
$20.74
MD630326 should be MB630326 which is replaced by MR360357
$70.85
MD318474 $35.14
MD172379 $63.20
MD972005
$78.89
MD174234 $15.89
MB658136 $17.19
MD180361
$1.55
MD143791 $5.83
MD152603 $5.96
ea
MD372249 $5.35 old # MD120700
MD186411
$2.16
MD140090 $3.13
MD186420
$2.97
MD186419 $1.61
MD186421
$1.28
MD186422 $1.10
MD186423
$1.33
MD191621 $6.83
MS851336 plugs $9.69 ea
x6
MD377054 adjusters $27.92 ea x 24
You really have a complete list except for the oil & air filters which
I assume you left off the list because you already have.
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:46:44 +0100
From: "Jim Matthews" <
jim@the-matthews.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: 99 front corner indicators
Thanks! But you can only tell at night? It's not visible during
the day?
Great to know that they fit without other modifications. I see in
your picture that the lenses have amber and clear sections. I take it that
the bulb is amber? Another lighting requirement here is that the front
running lights be white, not amber. I siliconed little lights into my
grille which got me through inspection last year, but perhaps I could add white
bulbs to the '99 lamps instead (couldn't do this on the stock lamps as the
lenses are all amber).
Thanks again!
- -Jim
- -----Original Message-----
From: Wieschhaus, Brandon Kenneth
(UMR-Student) [mailto:bwish@umr.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 5:39
AM
Well, after looking at mine, it's confirmed that you can indeed see amber
from 1meter off the rear bumper. You can't see a WHOLE lot, but you can see
it... As far as fitment goes, there is really no fitment issues, the 99 corner
goes right into place basically, no modifications necessary. Hope this helps...
You can see a pic of mine here:
www.umr.edu/~bwish/000_0225.JPG
-b
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:17:25 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Data logger for Second Gen
There is no reason to update my web page regarding the operation of the
CD/VCU and torque split. It's amazing to me that Philip and others do not see
the obvious regarding torque split in our CD/VCU, which is the same on all
models and not involved in the any datalogger connections (trying to stay on
topic). :)
Philip's analysis of the 45/55 split was again repeated to me last week by
another owner, an engineering student. Both analyses require that there is some
relative movement between some combination of the sun, planetary, and ring
gears. However, when there is a difference in rotation speed of the two output
shafts, the VCU "locks" the two output shafts together. The result is that
relative movement between any of the gears inside the CD ceases. The entire
CD/VCU rotates as if it were one solid piece of metal - at the same speed as the
ring gear. This means the gear ratio is 1:1, which is correctly noted by
Mitsubishi by not assigning a gear ratio to the CD/VCU. A 1:1 gear ratio results
in equal torque split between the two output shafts.
While a 45/55 split can happen in the CD/VCU, and I explain exactly how it
can happen on my web page, it will not happen under most normal driving
circumstances. When there is a difference in rotation rates between front and
rear output shafts the VCU "locks" the two together. When there is not slippage,
the two output shafts are spinning at the same speed anyway. In both cases, the
situation is as described in the above paragraph, a 1:1 gear ratio and equal
torque split. Of course uneven-split center differentials exist. We just don't
happen to have one.
Now back on topic (uh, NOT the one about me being wrong, which I have been
many times but not in this case :) ). I do not propose to know why manufacturers
modify components. However, a change to the better crank that occurred with the
start of 1993 DOHC model production does not coincide with the advertised
increase in engine output from 300 to 320 bhp, which occurred with the 1994
model year. And while 1994 and subsequent turbo-DOHC models claim more factory
bhp than 1991-1993 models, there was no *real* improvement in engine power or
engine control or engine efficiency compared to 1991-1993 (or at least 1993
models). A simple, cheap clamp on the hose that connects the Y-pipe to the "H",
or removal of the restrictor in the BC solenoid increases bhp of the 1991-1993
models to 1994+ levels.
Still waiting for someone to find *any* advantage to 1994-1995 ECU's (even
"obvious" ones we have not "got to" yet). The gearbox did change to a 6-speed in
1994 and some do find that an advantage because of the more evenly spaced and
higher gear ratios (but this is not related to the ECU).
- ---------- Original Message -------------
Subject: Re: Team3S: Data
logger for Second Gen
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:12:20 -0400
From: "Philip
V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
At 06:26 PM 4/28/2003, Jeff Lucius wrote:
>Also, 20 bhp is hardly a
reason to change crank design, especially
>since the factory 1991-1992
crank is widely reported to reliably
>hold 500 bhp. I imagine the crank
change was just part of the
>normal upgrade process manufacturers go
through.
The only upgrades that the US manufacturers do are those that they have to
do because they noticed some problems which happened in tests or
potentially could happen in service. I doubt that Mitsubishi is different.
The "regular upgrades" are usually tied to new model releases. This is when
the buyers are willing to pay for them.
>As far as Jim's question goes "Are there no benefits to the
'94-'95
>ECU?"
>The answer IMHO is yes, there are no benefits to a
'94-'95 ECU. :) These
>intermediate model years offer no real
performance, reliability, or engine
>monitoring advantage compared to
other years.
Well, Jeff, this is not the first time that you are... wrong! Remember our
AWD discussion about a year ago that you swept under the carpet? Read "Race
Car Vehicle Dynamics" by Milliken on p. 57* about the uneven torque split
differentials. They do exist! Please update your AWD page:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-awd3.htm#cdvcu
About the 94+ ECU's, there are some advantages to them, obviously. We just
did not get to them yet.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:54:19 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.comSubject: Team3S:
AFC Tuning / Low/Middle/High
The middle fuel trim, if anything like the DSM, is rarely ever used. IIRC -
it is only used when the MAS reports a reading between 125hz and 175 hz (though
it may be 125 and 250 hz). There is not much time ever spent in this
range... I have a post saved from DSMTalk that tells exactly how to
program the AFC, and it applies directly to the 3/S platform as well...
Begin a very long read:
Post quoted from DSMTalk:
0-3 count; ECU advances timing
4-7 count; ECU leaves timing alone
8+
count; ECU retards timing
so, up to 7 counts of knock and you'll be safe. any higher than that, the
ECU will retract timing advance faster than you're weener on a winter
morning.
what you can do, is start your AFC from scratch. try Throttle Points of
Lo=30% and Hi=70%.
Then, set up your lo throttle trims. 0-4000 rpm's first. Lo throttle under
4000 is using sequential fire and O2 feedback to the ECU. You can see it by
logging RPM, HZ signal, O2 trim, Lo/med/hi fuel trims. Here are the fuel trim
parameters:
0-125 Hz = Lo fuel trim band
126-175 Hz = Mid Fuel trim band
176+ Hz
= Hi fuel trim band
So, you can set up the Lo fuel trim while idling in the driveway. You want
all the Fuel trims to hold near 100%. Less than 100% and the ECU is trying to
remove fuel meaning its running on the rich side. More than 100% means the ECU
is trying to ADD fuel and that it is running on the lean side. so trims of 100%
gives the ECU maximum flexibility, since it can go 40% + or - either way
(60%-140%).
So, if your lo fuel trim is 139% (like mine, after installing 2G MAS), add
fuel to the 1000 rpm setting on the Lo throttle map. you'll see the O2 trims,
which will fluctuate the whole time, ranging from like 120%-130%. if you add
more fuel, the O2 trims will slowly start fluctuating at lower percentages. then
the Lo fuel trim will slowly start to tick down, then the O2 trim will reflect
that and begin to rise up again. If you didn't add enough fuel, the lo fuel trim
may start to rise again. so add a little more fuel till you are about 100%
To set your Mid and Hi fuel trims, you need to be cruising under load.
consider 1000 rpm on your Lo table LOCKED in. you shouldn't need to mess w/ it
once your fuel trim is around 100%. while cruising in 5th gear, try to get the
HZ between 125-175 and then look at your fuel trims. If, for instance, it says
86% Mid fuel trim, you are too rich. So go to whatever RPM point on your AFC
that your engine is currently running at, say 2000 since you are cruising at
~2400 rpm, and LEAN it out, remove some fuel. You'll see the O2 trims start to
fluctuate at a different range, and the mid fuel trim will slowly rise to
reflect the O2 trims. again, around 100% will give you the best
flexibility.
To set your Hi fuel trim, keep it in 5th gear, and go a little faster, till
your HZ is above 175. Then, go to that RPM point on your AFC which will be the
same RPM range on your Tach, try to get 175HZ + at say 3000 rpm, since you
should have been able to set 1000 (idle) and 2000 (slow cruising) so now you can
set 3000 as long as your Hz is above 175. repeat the same process. Mine is a
little low, Hi fuel trim= 89%. So, what I would do, is maybe, put it in 4th
gear, and try to go about 50-55 mph, as long as I was above 3000 rpm on the
tach, and above 175 hz in the airflow, I would then be using the Hi fuel trim
settings. so, my fuel trims are on the low side, meaning its a tad too rich. so
I'll remove some fuel at the RPM point on my AFC, and the O2 trims will show it
immediately, and then the Hi fuel trim should start to change in order to
reflect the o2 trim's findings. again, we want it near 100%.
So, now you're Fuel trims are set, along w/ half your Lo throttle
table.
Next, we can tune your Hi throttle map;
I think, tuning 1000-2000 rpm is kinda weird or...useless? but, to do it
you should probably be doing 10 mph in 3rd gear, and then PUNCH it...2000 should
come up pretty fast. If you need more of a load and longer time to see what's
going on inside the engine, put it in a higher gear, it'll be really boggy and
you'll be lugging your engine hard core, but, luckily you'll only have to do
this a couple times.
I don't think you should have ANY knock down this low... if you don't,
maybe you can take fuel out till knock DOES occur. I think that once you go 100
% throttle..or at least 70%, the ECU should go open loop regardless of RPM. I've
been able to get Open loop by punching it at 2000 rpm...
Anyhow, I think if you don't have knock between 1000 and 2000 rpm by
punching it, you might have more fuel than you need, so you COULD tune it to be
a little more crisp and frugal by remove a little fuel till knock does set in,
then add a little fuel back in till it disappears.
Then, maybe you could be in a fast part of town (45 mph speed limit) and
keep it in 5th gear doing 2000 rpm on the tach. then, punch it, and take it up
to 3000, you should be doing about 55 I think, so you wont be breakin the law
that bad. You may have tad bit of knock naturally down this low. just add a
Percent or 2 of fuel at the 2000 rpm point and do another run to verify the
results. keep repeating the procedure, accelerating from 2000 to 3000 and
monitor the knock. as long as you keep it under 7 counts, you'll be safe.
keeping it 3 and under is BETTER though.
Do the same for 3000-4000, 4000-5000, 5000-6000, and finally
6000-7000. For those, get on the freeway, and keep it in 3rd. Even at 7000
in 3rd, you wont be doing much more than 80 mph, so if you get nicked, you won't
be in THAT much trouble. plus, 3rd gear will still put enough of a load on the
motor to get decent results.
Remember some rules-of-thumbs
7 knock sum is good, but
<3 knock sum is BETTER
0 knock sum is
Bestest.
once you get your hi throttle map tuned, log a 3rd gear pull from 2000-7000
and look at it then. You should see the timing take a dump once you go WOT, and
if your knock stays in-check, you'll see your timing slowly ADVANCE throughout
the run. if you can hit 20*+ at the top of the RPM's, you're car is tuned VERY
WELL.
I'm lucky enough to have like a mile-long, smooth, level, divided bridge by
my crib (goes over Tampa Bay). I was able to do a 5th gear pull, from 2400-6900
rpm. it was like a 1:30 minute long Log. My knock got as high as 11 counts by
6600 rpm, and the timing WAS 21* before that, but once the knock got above 7,
the timing started to slope downward, till it hit 17* advance at the 11 counts
of knock by 6600 rpm.. it was a clean, solid run. I was very impressed by
it.
also, try to do a 3rd gear run at only 30% throttle to get an overall view
of your lo throttle fuel map. If you see knock occurring during the overall view
on either lo or hi throttle runs, go back to those RPM points at which the knock
occurred, and try to duplicate it by doing the RPM-window runs (2000-3000 or
3000-4000 etc). if you can duplicate the knock again,, you'll need to retune
that RPM point like before. if you CANT get it to re-occur, maybe there is
something wrong w/ your fuel delivery (Ex; clogged/dirty injectors, bad FPR, FPR
overrun, etc). Or, maybe you have mechanical knock like lifters or something.
Or, could be the ECU caps. We had problems w/ the car being picky (ex; running
great one day, shitty the next) and so far, it seems to have been alleviated by
replacing the ECU w/ a known-to-be good one.
I hope this helps
And I truly hope this helps as well...
-Cody
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Collins
> Sent:
Monday, April 28, 2003 9:23 PM
>
> I posted this on 3si but I
though I would ask here as well. The
> datalogger shows that the
middle and high fuel trims on my 92
> Stealth TT are always 100% no
matter how I change the settings
> on my SAFC or how I drive.
>
> My low fuel trims change quite frequently. Does anyone
have
> any idea what could be wrong, if anything? Has anyone
on this
> list with a datalogger or pocketlogger ever noticed this?
One other
> person on 3si has the same symptoms.
>
>
Thanks.
>
> Brian Collins
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:43:37 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Data logger for Second Gen
The advantages are not so obvious to me, Phillip. What do you see as
the advantages?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Philip V. Glazatov
[mailto:gphilip@umich.edu]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 9:12 PM
About the 94+ ECU's, there are some advantages to them, obviously. We just
did not get to them yet.
Philip
------------------------------
Okay, Alzheimer's is a sad, sad thing ...
I think we always set it at the edge of the tolerance at stock height,
which would be -0.5 front and a bit more negative in the rear.
Chuck Willis
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dan Hyde
[mailto:danielhyde@attbi.com]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 10:42 PM
Ok Chuck...you made me go look in the manual. Some of this I have to
admit I don't understand (Steering Angle spec). SERVICE SPECIFICATIONS (91-99
3000GT - from the manual)
FRONT SUSPENSION
Camber = 0º ± 30´
REAR SUSPENSION (AWD)
Camber = -0º 10´ ± 30´
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:10:53 +0000
From:
mjannusch@attbi.comSubject: Team3S:
VCU, torque split
> Philip's analysis of the 45/55 split was again
> repeated to me
last week by another owner, an
> engineering student. Both analyses
require that
> there is some relative movement between some
>
combination of the sun, planetary, and ring gears.
> However, when there
is a difference in rotation
> speed of the two output shafts, the VCU
"locks"
> the two output shafts together. The result is that
>
relative movement between any of the gears inside
> the CD ceases.
There's an assumption in there that the VCU actually completely
"locks". If
you remove the driveshaft from the transfercase and try to
drive around for a
bit (you probably don't want to do this for long), you'll
see that it doesn't
lock since a lot of power is still being wasted out
through the transfercase.
If it was able to lock, it should drive just
like a FWD car - but it doesn't.
The VCU is more like a lightweight
clutch that can apply more
friction/pressure when it is heated, but it
doesn't actually lock.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:25:15 +0000
From:
mjannusch@attbi.comSubject: Re:
Team3S: If anyone's interested in what I do in my spare time
14B in a TD04 sounds pretty pointless to me. You'd be way better off
just
making your TD04s into 15Gs.
You'll end up with all the drawbacks of the TD04 housing with none of the
big
benefits of the 14B (primarily the larger exhaust side and much larger
compressor housing). If you get it to fit, you'll likely be somewhere
around
13G performance due to the exhaust side restriction. I'm not
even sure that
you'll get the TD05 exhaust wheel to fit in a TD04 housing
with enough
diffusion area left over for top-end flow.
Just throw the 14Bs right on the car with adapter plates or true headers
and
be done with it.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: glenn vrfour <
vr4glenn@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: cost of tranny, wheels etc for vr-4
Tranny $2,500+
Stock wheels show up on eBay from time to time -
$500-$1,000. Has the timing belt been replaced? Full 60k/120k service is
$500 if you do it, $1,500 if the dealer does it.
Usually it's cheaper to find the VR-4 that you want
than to find a
'bargain' and fix it up.
Glenn
- --- Kian Habib <
ill1027@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am
considering buying a certain vr-4 but there a
> couple nagging things
about it. For one there is
> a strange sound when it is shifting to 4th
gear. I
> was wondering what this could be and the approximate
cost
> of fixing or replacing a vr-4 tranny. The other
> question I
had was how much I could get some chrome
> rims for the vr-4 for. They
don't have to be new but
> I really like the look of them and the car I
am
> considering has alloys. Thank you for your time
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:58:14 +0000
From:
mjannusch@attbi.comSubject: Re:
Team3S: Data logger for Second Gen
> About the 94+ ECU's, there are some advantages to them, obviously.
We
> just did not get to them yet.
Certainly not interface, performance, or modification-friendliness
advantages. ...and those are the sorts of things that I would be
looking for
in an ECU. So for me, there are zero advantages to any
factory ECU later
than '93. If there are any advantages whatsoever
other than a hyperactive
Check Engine light, I'd like to hear them.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:42:48 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: VCU, torque split
Matt,
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "lock" below.
The VCU (inside the center diff) does indeed "lock" the two output shafts
together. It is its sole function. When the VCU "locks" the two shafts together,
the results isn't a FWD car, its an AWD car (well, within the limited-slip
capabilities of the front and rear diffs).
Your example illustrates the point exactly. Even without a prop shaft on
the TC, the output shaft to the TC still spins. The VCU wouldn't have it any
other way because that's its job. If the shafts spin at different rates (above
some threshold value that I do not know), the fluid inside the VCU heats up,
expands, and "locks" the internal plates together - meaning it tries to make
both output shafts spin at the same rate.
And back to torque split and gearing, if both output shafts spin at the
same rate, then there is no relative movement of gearing inside the CD. It would
be the same as if the entire the CD/VCU were one solid piece of steel. A 1:1
gear ratio. A 50/50 torque split.
Wow. I thought we had put this topic to rest years ago. :)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Sent: Tuesday,
April 29, 2003 8:10 AM
> Philip's analysis of the 45/55 split was again
> repeated to me
last week by another owner, an
> engineering student. Both analyses
require that
> there is some relative movement between some
>
combination of the sun, planetary, and ring gears.
> However, when there
is a difference in rotation
> speed of the two output shafts, the VCU
"locks"
> the two output shafts together. The result is that
>
relative movement between any of the gears inside
> the CD ceases.
There's an assumption in there that the VCU actually completely
"locks". If
you remove the driveshaft from the transfercase and try to
drive around for a
bit (you probably don't want to do this for long), you'll
see that it doesn't
lock since a lot of power is still being wasted out
through the transfercase.
If it was able to lock, it should drive just
like a FWD car - but it doesn't.
The VCU is more like a lightweight
clutch that can apply more
friction/pressure when it is heated, but it
doesn't actually lock.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:55:12 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: VCU, torque split
>>
If the shafts spin at different rates (above some threshold
value that I do not know), the fluid inside the VCU heats up, expands, and
"locks" the internal plates together - meaning it tries to make both output
shafts spin at the same rate.
>>
Jeff, is that a hard, mechanical lock or an increase in viscosity between
impeller vanes making an "effective" lock? Just curios, it's interesting
technology. Not like I have one, yet.
Pete Rivenburg
93 black SL autobox dog
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:24:48 +0000
From:
mjannusch@attbi.comSubject: Re:
Team3S: VCU, torque split
> I'm not sure what you mean when you say "lock" below.
> The VCU
(inside the center diff) does indeed "lock"
> the two output shafts
together. It is its sole
> function. When the VCU "locks" the two shafts
together,
> the results isn't a FWD car, its an AWD car (well,
>
within the limited-slip capabilities of the front
> and rear diffs).
Hmmm. I think we're both saying the same thing in slightly different
ways. I
think you are describing the state where all four wheels have
the same
traction and the split appears to be 50/50, where I was describing
where
different wheels have different traction and the VCU is able to vary
torque
distribution to some extent. I saw in your tech pages that you
describe the
situation I'm describing as well...
So I think I was just arguing about nothing with you agreeing with
me.
:-)
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:03:03 -0600
From: "Donald Ashby" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: AFC Tuning Low/Middle/High
Great info, I'm going to modify it a bit from my personal experience and
make a webpage of it if that's ok with you cody? Donald Ashby '93 3000GT VR-4
(RIP) "Don't drink and park, accidents cause people!"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:25:11 -0700
From: Andy <
awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: cost of tranny, wheels etc for vr-4
Usually it's cheaper to find the VR-4 that you want
than to find a
'bargain' and fix it up.
AH MEN
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#142
***************************************
