Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, April 16
2003 Volume 02 : Number 131
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:10:40 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
JICs, GCs (alert!?)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
-
----------------snip---------------->
> After this episode I realized
that maybe I needed to spend some time
> tuning my new lowered setup with
the JIC suspension. The two-piece rim episode occurred during the third session
of the second day and followed a different two-wheel off-tack excursion,
also in turn #5.
- ----------------snip--------------->
I don't know if this has anything to do with Philip's incident, or if
anyone else has reported this... But I must have the two weirdest 3S's in
the world. Aftermarket suspensions (for both my cars at least) are NOT a simple
bolt-on, and do NOT fit as they come from the manufacturers:
A) The JICs did NOT fit in a 91 VR-4 without rubbing on the inside of all 4
255/40 wheels!
B) The GC coilovers did NOT fit the 94 Stealth NA rear without
adding helper springs!
Are there that many bad shops in our 3S world that NO one has noticed
this?
A) When the JICs were installed, (according to Bryan and Rick) they
barely cleared the inside of the wheels/street tires (1st gen 255/40ZR17 Nitto
555), but they *did* clear. But when I brought them in to Custom Alignment
(rated in the 10 best pro suspension shops in the country), they showed me that
they do NOT fit "out of the box". The insides of all 4 tires were deeply
scored by the height adjuster collar rubbing repeatedly. "Discard the
tires", was the advice from the C. A. pros. The only way they could get
the JICs to fit without rubbing was to replace the upper wheel bolt with a
thinner bolt to bring it away from the wheel. (A stroke of genius, and it
was lucky that they happened to have these two bolts around - at
$35/pair). Even then, the very BEST camber they could give me was a meager
-.6 on both sides. This was way less than my preferred -1.5 to -2.5.
Does this mean that we can't use tires wider than 245 with JICs? What size
rubber are you using Philip? Jim? (And have you folks with JICs
looked at the insides of your tires lately?)
B) When Bryan was installing the GC coilovers in my Stealth base
(SOHC), he would not install the rears because he said it was unsafe--
This was verified by my local suspension guy (not at Custom Alignment, but a
'heavy' in the business - former head of suspension for Rolls Royce before
opening his own shop). He said he had seen it MANY times before, on many
cars - that the GCs can cause a dangerous situation if the wheel ever gets
unloaded (flying through the air going over a hill, or going up in the air after
hitting a berm). I called GC and they said, "well once you put weight on
the car, it takes up the slack"!?! "Use a twist tie to keep it in place
while it's up on the rack, then lower the car and it will hold it in
place"!?! Aaaagh! That's playing pretty fast and loose with our
safety, IMO! The GC guy finally verified that the safest way to take up
the 1/4"-shy slack was to get a set of helper springs from Eibach (cost me $100
for the set, from GC). They KNOW about this problem and yet GC does not
mention it in their ads (nor does GTPro or 3SXPerformance), and not ONE person
on this list or Team3S Racers has mentioned it! {Although I didn't bring
the Stealth to C. A., I told them about it and they said they see it all the
time too - the rears don't fit, and it's "usually OK" on street vehicles, but
could be a danger at the track - they *insist* on helper springs for GC
coilovers on track vehicles, or they won't release the car!}
This is a pretty important issue if there are other members who have these
aftermarket suspensions, and they are unaware of these problems. If you do
have GC coilovers or JICs, *please* check it out! Many folks who don't
race have aftermarket suspensions, so I'm copying this to both the main list and
the Team3S Racers list...
Forrest
------------------------------
Bob,
I don't understand. What is the problem if the rear end gets unloaded
with the GC setup? Are you worried that the spring is going to get
cockeyed?
I've been driving three VR4s with the GC setup on street and track for 6
years without any problem. What am I missing? You are scaring
me.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:43:26 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: RE: 3S-Racers: JICs, GCs (alert!?)
I think that is exactly what bob is saying, which explains why the Teins in
our cars are of a dual spring design... My concern would be the violent
unloading and then the even more violent reloading and possibly watching the car
snap a shock and having something go terribly wrong at 60+ MPH :O
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:47:26 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
3S-Racers: JICs, GCs (alert!?)
Chuck --- because of the design both the front and rear could get unloaded
to the point where the springs pull away from the upper or lower perch. You
would have to have lots of air time to unload the suspension to the point that
the springs came away from their seats and even then worst case would be a
momentary mis-seating of the spring. As stated by GC a couple of tie wraps can
hold every thing in alignment until the suspension settles down. I don't see
where any danger lies --- the suspension will not fall apart. The reason nobody
mentioned it is because it seems to be pretty much a non issue --- looks like
Chuck and I have both beat the hell outta the GC's for a couple of years without
a problem.
Helper springs would be better if available --- does GC offer them ??? If
so what is the price.
As to the JIC's, I installed mine but only did a quickie alignment so I
could drive it and I have those 25 mm spacers to widen the front track so there
will not be an issue for me in front at least.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:52:29 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: JICs, GCs (alert!?)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
> Chuck --- because
of the design both the front and rear could get
> unloaded to the point
where the springs pull away from the upper or lower perch. You would have to
have lots of air time to unload the suspension to the point that the springs
came away from their seats and even then worst case would be a momentary
mis-seating of the spring. As stated by GC a couple of tie wraps can hold
every thing in alignment until the suspension settles down. I don't see where
any danger lies --- the suspension will not fall apart. The reason nobody
mentioned it is because it seems to be pretty much a non issue --- looks like
Chuck and I have both beat the hell outtalk the GC's for a couple of years
without a problem.
> Helper springs would be better if available --- does
GC offer them ???
> If so what is the price.
-
--------------snip--------->
Exactly right as to what may happen but it's only a non-issue until there
is an incident *that we hear about*. It was like Custom Alignment had
spoken to Ground Control, since they both used the same words when I asked if
the helper springs were necessary: "How much is your safety worth?"(!!!)
Willie, the Rolls suspension expert put it another way, "If it comes loose just
the right way and snaps, you'll be in the wall." Bryan *refused* to
install it on my car because, he said, "I wouldn't put it on MY car that
way". These are people whom I trust (even though I had to wring the info
out of GC), and that's good enough for me to be convinced that it's dangerous
without helpers.
GC sells the Eibach helper spring set for $100. I had it FedExed
overnight. Safety first, THEN speed. I am really pissed at this little
"undocumented feature", and I think that GTPro, 3SXPerformance and all the rest
who do so much in supporting our cars should take the hit of a few lost sales
and publish this on their sites - let alone Ground Control...! Twist ties?
- you've GOTTA be kidding! That's MY butt out there on the track!
- ---Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:10:30 -0500
From: Jon Paine <
ppainej@attglobal.net>
Subject:
Team3S: VR4 Y pipe blow off question
Not having had this happen to me (the prior owner of B had the Y pipe
cemented in place like a permanent fixture) I want to do some
pre-failure work on the Y pipe and was wondering what usually happens
-
- does the gasket pull out of the Y pipe or does it separate from the
throttle body?
I have a couple of ideas about where the design is deficient but don't
want to fix something that's a non issue.
Thanks.
Jon
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:19:36 -0700
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: VR4 Y pipe blow off question
The pressure inside the pipe makes it pop off the throttle body. Some times
the pipe will come lose but not enough to kill the car and when you are no
longer under boost, the vacuum of the engine will then suck the gasket in to the
plenum. The problem is in the way it clamps on to the throttle body. The pipe is
plastic and is too soft to go on there well enough.
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:29:43 +0000
From:
nouveau3@attbi.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
VR4 Y pipe blow off question
Here is one solution, we have been selling these for about 8 months now.
www.drunkenbear.biz follow the link
at the top left of the page. (ypipe)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:33:29 -0400
From: bob atkins <
ratkins@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: JICs, GCs (alert!?)
I have the TEIN HA w/Pillow Mounts on a '99 VR-4. I will address the
front end per Bob's comments attached below.
I am not able to set the pillow mount camber adjustment to the MOST
positive (completely outboard) location without rubbing the inside of the stock
tire (on stock rim). I have the camber "zeroed" with about 80% of the
negative adjustment still available. That is, I have the zero degree
camber alignment so that the pillow mount is set at about 20% from full
positive
(outboard) adjustment.
"Leaning" the struts inboard at the pillow mount this amount provided about
5mm back (inboard) side wall tire clearance with stock 245x40x18 size (Potenza
RE730). By the way, I also have about 5mm brake caliper clearance inboard
of the wheel spoke. This was true with stock suspension as well.
For track setup I am running Enkei RPM-2 rims at 18x9 w/38mm offset.
I have 265x35x18 Kumho ecstaV700 R-Compound tires. Because of the
combination of the rim/spoke design, the extra half inch rim width and the
additional 8mm outboard extension due to offset, I can put my fat fingers
between both the
caliper/spoke and spring/collar inboard
sidewall. Sidewall clearance is
increased with negative camber
input at the pillow mount.
By the way - I really enjoyed reading about all you guys recent track days.
My next is THIS Saturday at SEBRING. Something I've bee looking forward to
for the last couple of years. And although I won't have any of you guys to
work with at the track - one of the instructors signed up is a '94 VR-4 owner
from here in my small east coast town (Merritt Island - not named for
Rich). I'll try to sign him up for the list!
For an excellent in car video - the entire SPEED GT race at SEBRING last
month from inside David Farmer's Z06 got to
click on the link to the subject video at the top of the page.
badbob
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:51:10 -0500
From: Jon Paine <
ppainej@attglobal.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: JICs, GCs (alert!?)
Now you've got me worried about it. I'm installing GC coilovers on
stock struts and yes, the springs are short enough to come off the
seats. Unloaded, the fronts are about 1" short of the seat (at the
highest adjustment) but are below the top of the strut cylinder. The
rears are about 1 1/2" off the seat and are above the top of the
cylinder. I was wondering about this but as soon as I established that
that was the way they fit, I thought that GC wouldn't market it this
way
if it was a problem.
Am I just being naive about this? Is the concern only that the rears
COULD end up above the strut? When they're assembled with the bump
stop
in place, it seems like it takes a pretty good shove from the
side to get
the spring to move out of line. I was more concerned about
the 1-2" of
non-sprung travel before the spring contacted the seat,
in which case the
concern is for both front and rear.
If the helpers are really necessary, isn't GC opening themselves up to
a potential liability issue by not advising purchasers of this or
changing the design? Like why don't they just use longer springs and
have done with it?
I guess I'll be calling GC tomorrow...
Jon
------------------------------
Being a New Zealander, we call the vehicle "GTO" under the Mitsubishi
brand. I have recently had my 100,000km, (60k), service done and all seemed
fine, this included all "Driven Belts/Cam Belt/Plugs." I now experience an
intermittent problem where I change down from say 5 - 4 - 3 and the engine will
die!! (This can be exciting when you are trying to enter a corner at 80km/h when
the steering gets very hard to operate!!)
The car is manual so it is a case of letting the clutch out and basically
"Crash Start" the engine. Probably not so good for the engine over time....
Sometimes it does this after 5 km from cold, sometimes after 30-40km and after
the ignition has been off for 2-3 hours. The problem sometimes also happens when
coasting to a stop with the clutch depressed. I have asked the mechanics to have
a look but they can find nothing wrong on diagnostics and it refuses to fail for
them. (Isn't that always the case?)_
I am unsure if this is related to an ECU problem as other than this, the
operation of everything is very smooth.
Can anyone help in advising me further?
Regards,
Harry Funnell.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:47:15 -0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
JICs, GCs (alert!?)
Lots of people [ including people on this list ] have lots of track miles
on the GC setup without a problem. I don't see a dangerous failure mode but had
I known they had helper springs I probably would have used them. As I said to
Bob --- since the suspension droop is controlled by strut rebound I think you'd
have to be airborne for at least a second to have the springs lose
contact with the perch. Pro rally drivers do indeed get such airtime but I'd
be surprised if anyone on this board gets airborne for more than a tenth
of a second.
You could put your car up on stands, jack up a front wheel until the car
starts to lift then release the jack and see how long it takes to drop until the
spring is loose.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:05:12 -0500
From: "William J. Crabtree" <
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: 4 Wheel steering issue solved
Thanks to everyone that made the effort to help out with my "which line
goes
where" problem. It is now resolved. Now if I can just bleed
the damn
steering system, my car will be road ready!! Seems like this
might be one
of the biggest challenges of my project.
- -Jeff Crabtree
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:26:00 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: JICs, GCs (alert!?)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Paine" <
ppainej@attglobal.net>
> Now
you've got me worried about it. I'm installing GC coilovers on stock
struts
and yes, the springs are short enough to come off the seats. Unloaded,
the
fronts are about 1" short of the seat (at the highest adjustment) but
are
below the top of the strut cylinder. The rears are about 1 1/2" off the
seat
and are above the top of the cylinder. I was wondering about this but as
soon
as I established that that was the way they fit, I thought that GC
wouldn't
market it this way if it was a problem.
-
-------------------------->
You mean..., just like Ford would never market a vehicle which they knew
would
roll over if the Firestone tires were inflated properly?
;-) This GC
coilover 'mis-fit' is a concern for anyone who races IMO,
and not much of an
issue other than sloppy design for anyone else. Once
the weight of the car is
on them, loss of contact could only occur under the
most extreme conditions
during normal driving - such as driving over a curb,
for example. But when
racing, it's another story... One of my
rear wheels will go up in the air and
lose contact for a second or less,
unloading the setup and creating a
potential problem. If you don't
drive over berms regularly, don't worry
(probably). But GC sells a
helper kit specifically for this issue. My
suspension guys (whom I
trust - YMMV) say it's safer with the helper spring
(which is basically a fat
washer) to keep everything in contact during extreme
vertical motion (aka
huge bumps) at speed. Everyone seems to think it sounds
normal to tie
up the top of the setup so it doesn't flop around. I say -
that's like
"the king's new clothes"... It doesn't sound OK to me to depend
on a
suspension part that's tied up at 140 mph - how about you?
;-)
Definitely - I think you *should* CALL them and hear it for
yourself.
You mention the fronts also being mis-fit for you, but they don't seem to
have
a problem (in my experience), and there is no kit sold for them.
So I'm
sorry, but I don't follow what your problem is with the fronts.
That's not
something I had to deal with.
Best,
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:35:42 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: VR4 Y pipe blow off question
Yeah, I had this happen to me a couple times. When the gasket
gets
sucked in, it blocks the throttle plate open and the car
keep
accelerating!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Tyson Varosyan
[mailto:tigran@tigran.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 7:20 PM
The pressure inside the pipe makes it pop off the throttle body.
Some
times the pipe will come lose but not enough to kill the car and when
you are
no longer under boost, the vacuum of the engine will then suck the
gasket
in to the plenum. The problem is in the way it clamps on to the
throttle body.
The pipe is plastic and is too soft to go on there well
enough.
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:52:28 -0400
From: "Shannon Andrew Rowe" <
shannonroweis@rogers.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Tire choices
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I know a thread was posted not too long ago on the subject but I'm
looking
for a quick answer and couldn't find one. I have just been graced
with a
flat tire on one of my Goodyears and would like to know the feedback
on any
economical performance tire.
I use the car basically as a daily driver and in all weather
conditions. I
have never used anything but Goodyears, my only complaint
is that they seem
to get damaged incredibly easy. Any suggestions would
be appreciated. I
run 245/45/17's.
I would also be curious to know if anyone has suggestions on
economical
after market rims.
Thanks in advance,
Shannon
92 Dodge Stealth TT
70 Dodge Charger RT 440
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:13:32 -0700
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Tire choices
I'm in the market for new tires too. My search thus far has led me to
the Yokohama AVS ES100. They seem to perform very well, and at a little
over $100 each in 245/45/17, they're a great deal for a performance tire.
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:19:20 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: JICs, GCs (alert!?)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Damon Rachell" <
DamonR@MEFAS.com>
> Bob,
> I
believe the spring thicknesses and lower spring perches of the JICs are
the
same (or real close) as the TEIN Flex, and I currently run a 275/40/17
with a
5mm spacer on my Flex's, not for the coilovers, but to clear
the
brakes! I have yet to have clearance issues. In fact, with
these
tires/wheels, on stock shocks, I was rubbing against the lower perch
but not
with the TEINs.
> I'll find out for sure tonight when I swap
the TEINs for the JICs. TEINs
have to go back to TEIN to get
re-measured so they can be manufactured!!!
> Are the camber adjustment
screws on the top of the camber plate arranged
next to each other to maximize
the amount of camber? They do not need to be
at the farthest holes from
each other.
> Every set of lowering springs is a direct drop in without
the need for
spring compressors in the rear of the 3000GT/Stealths. It
is a matter of
maximum shock length that causes this.
> Damon
-
------------------------>
Thanks for trying to help Damon, but I think
you're mixing up the problems
with the two cars-- The *rears* on the Stealth
NT needed helper springs to get
the Ground Control coilovers to fit.
That is obviously not a "direct drop-in"
since I had to spend an additional
$100 for helper springs to be safe on the
track. (And 3 professionals,
including Ground Control, said so!) The problem
is well known to all
these installers, who shrug it off for street vehicles,
but NOT for track
cars.
The VR-4 is the one with the problem on the fronts with the JICs. As
in...,
they don't fit! You have no problems with the similar Teins
because you are
using spacers. If I have to use spacers then I have to
get new lugs too (and
someone to do the labor) - very pricey. The JICs
should not be advertised as
a simple drop-in if they're not! When I got
to Custom Alignment, their first
comment was, "We can't do anything for you.
These coilovers don't fit." Until
they came up with a brilliant plan
(as a favor - since they knew I was going
to the track in 2 days, after
waiting for my appointment with them for 2
weeks...), I would have been out
of luck. If they hadn't come up with the
idea of substituting thinner
bolts in place of those that came with the JICs,
I would have been at
the same *positive*(!) camber as when I drove in. (They
switched the
*upper* one of the two cross bolts that attach the bottom of the
unit to the
wheel.)
I don't have a garage, (nor the time for such big projects) so I depend
on
professionals to do my work. I can't answer your question about the
adjustment
screws, since I didn't set it up, but I'll look at them
tomorrow. These guys
are the best in the business-- If there had
been a way for them to have
created a better setup with more tire clearance
and more than -.6 camber, I'm
sure they would have. They are racers and
they cater to racers; and they get
top dollar for what they do. The
FLT-A2 is NOT a direct drop-in when I am
limited in camber adjustment to a
max of -.6, unless I choose to spend a pile
more money for other mods like
spacers, lugs (and hubs?) and labor. Here is
the top of the front
adjustment plate, for the record:
www.Team3S.com/Images/JICtopfront.jpgI'm
using stock 1st gen 17" wheels and 255/40ZR17 Proxes. But unless my
car
is totally weird, the JIC FLT-A2s are NOT a "direct drop in" on the 1st
gen
VR-4/TT. They feel great even at only -.6 camber, and I love how
the car
performs on the track. But it's going to cost me a whole lot
more money to
get them to do what they were designed for - to give me
adjustable camber
settings.
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:24:15 -0700
From: Michael Gerhard <
gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Tire choices
At 10:13 AM 4/16/2003, you wrote:
>I'm in the market for new tires
too. My search thus far has led me to the
>Yokohama AVS
ES100. They seem to perform very well, and at a little over
>$100
each in 245/45/17, they're a great deal for a performance tire.
I've been running Firestone Firehawk SZ50-EP (245/45-ZR17s) for over a year
now and I'm staying with them. They are awesome. When I was shopping for
tires, I used Tirerack.com to compare various tires and the Firehawks
always came out on top, overall. They are almost unbeaten for traction (wet
or dry) and noise and tire wear (they have a rating of 340). I think the
Tirerack price is $160 or so and most places will price match with a small
fee for mounting. I got mine through Wheel Works and they price match
tirerack + $15 per tire (which is what Big O charges to mount Tirerack
tires).
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Michael
A. Gerhard 1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 Pearl
White
------------------------------
New guy here
I have read most of the FAQ and forums concerning the anti-sway bars but
I
wanted some personal opinions. I recently purchased the front bar for my
92
SOHC Stealth, but wasn't quite sure how they performed. I have heard
legend
and rumor that the stock front anti-sway bar is the best bar you can
get for
your car, and based on the FAQ I know people have them, but I didn't
read
any personal opinions on the bar.
Mike Guy
92 SOHC Stealth
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#131
***************************************
