Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth    Friday, March 14 2003    Volume 02 : Number 103
 
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:22:11 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: JIC install
 
A preliminary report on the JIC coil over setup.
 
http://www.jic-magic.com/susp/flta2/flta2_series.htm
 
I removed my GC/GAB/Eibach setup and replaced it with the
JIC FLTA2 suspension --- my GC combination had 900# springs
in front and 600# in the rear, The GAB's are 4 way in front and 8 way in the rear --- the JIC has about 800# front and 500 rear with 16 way adjustments [ I can't find the info on spring rates right now].
 
With the shocks set on max the ride is harsh, more so than the ride with the GC/GAB's set on max. In the next day or so I'll drop the
shock rate and see what that does to ride quality.
 
We only had time for a partial alignment and I am temporarily out of R compound tires so a full handling report will take a while. I'll finish the alignment next week and see how it feels.
 
        Jim Berry
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:24:40 -0600
From: "Dan Hyde" <danielhyde@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: JIC install
 
Jim
Will be curious on your assessment (opinion) on ease of adjustment access for the fronts after you have had a chance to play with em.  I understand the dampening adjustment in inverted rather than on top like Tein HA's and Flex.
 
Also, can you tell if there is change in clearance between wheel and strut with the JIC's?
 
Dan
97 VR4
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:34:53 -0700
From: Desert Fox <bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject: Team3S: 98 3000GT SL
 
I ran across an ad for a 1998 3000GT SL loaded in Billings, MT for $18,000. I can't afford it (or would grab it if I could) and haven't been able to call this person but will tomorrow. If any list members are looking for something like this, feel free to email me off list.
 
- --
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
formerly reasonable and prudent
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:10:56 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 91 Stealth Twin Turbo
 
>The dealer charged me $500 just to "find out where the noise is coming
>from".  I agreed (my regular mechanic wanted nothing to do with this
>one)
 
That's outrageous.
 
>Anyway, he told me I was fortunate.  Apparently a piece of the belt had
>torn & was hitting the housing as it spun.  He said he would test for
>any valve >damage & replace the belt / tensioner.  He quoted me around
>$1100 for the job.  I agreed.
 
That's high. Book at the dealer is about $800. Even so, this was their diagnosis, they fixed it, and you paid. Should be the end of the story.
 
>I picked the car up & drove home.  The noise was gone.<snip> I got a
>call from the dealer telling me "the vehicle has a really bad wrap". 
>He went on to say we are not willing to tear this motor apart.  Make
>arrangement to remove the car.  When I arrived he told me the car
>needed a new engine & handed me a parts only quote of 6340.
 
Once again, this dealer is outrageous.
He won't fix the motor? He shouldn't be a Mitsu dealer.
He won't stand behind the original repair? Call a lawyer.
 
>I am looking for honest opinions on what I should make of this. 23
>miles after having the belt/tensioner changed & the vehicle getting a
>clean bill of heath I now need a new engine.
 
Call a lawyer.
Call the Mitsu zone rep.
This dealer is a true bad apple and needs to be corrected.
 
> I should also mention the dealer tried to
>sell me an ABS system for $3000 as "it's a bad unit".  I actually
>unplugged it because I do not like ABS
 
There are several fixes, ranging from free (plugging and unplugging) to a $4 relay, to a replacement hose for $20, up to several hundred dollars for the other relays.
 
>& tried to whack me another $250 for an oil
>sending unit.
 
You might want to call a "friendly" dealer, such as Rockville Mitsu, and get real parts prices on all this stuff. I smell a lawsuit coming, and you'll need evidence.
 
>They are now blaming the problem on low oil pressure as I decline repair on
>that.   Obviously the sending unit just tells the gauge what to display.  It >would in no way effect actual internal pressure.  Furthermore one would
>think they tested pressure prior to trying to sell me a sending unit?
 
This dealer obviously regards you as a "money pit." He's charged you $500 + $1100 = $1600 to do an $800 job. He's tried to screw you out of an additional $6340 + labor + $3000 + 250 = $10,000 or so. You could buy another 91 Stealth for that kind of money.
 
Mitsu itself should step in to help you here.
Call a lawyer.
 
Rich/slow old poop
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 06:29:47 -0600
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: brake upgrade
 
Nope.  You will also need the hub/steering knuckles.
 
Wheel selection - ask the VR4 track guys, seems like they know what does and doesn't fit...
 
- -Cody
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrzej Artymowicz [mailto:andrzej.artymowicz@wp.pl]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 3:10 AM
 
Hi Cody!
 
I'm planning to upgrade to bigger twin turbo brakes...
 
Do I need to buy only 2nd generation calipers, rotors and pads? With no other modifications?
 
regards
 
andrzej
 
On Thursday, Mar 13, 2003, at 02:50 Europe/Warsaw, cody wrote:
 
> There is no difference between 1g and 2g rotors/calipers unless you
> are going to the TT setup...  Non-turbo models all have the same
> stuff.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:38:44 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 91 Stealth Twin Turbo
 
Tim from the sounds of it they may not have correctly set the timing belt tensioner or maybe they did not even replace it :O
 
So it held tight on the initial start up/run and then when you shut the car off the belt slackened (along with the tensioner) and  you are in a quandary now......
 
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news....
 
Russ F
CT
 
P.S. did they put in writing exactly what they diagnosed the problem to be and give you a break down of exactly what parts where replaced????
 
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim" <tim@onlineracing.tv>
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:01 PM
 
> The thing is though the belt actually never broke.  As it was
> explained to me by the service mgr.  The belt was getting close to
> coming apart.  He said a piece of the belt had more or less torn.
> It was like a flat hanging off the belt which was still together.
> Anyway, that flap was hitting the timing belt housing as the belt
> spun.  that was the slapping noise I was hearing. They told me I
> was lucky I shut the car off & towed it over the moment I heard
> the noise & told me no valve damage had occurred. 
> When I left the dealership after the work was done the noise was gone
> & the car ran perfect but only for 20 miles before crapping out.
>
> Now it's wrapping away.  Surely if there were valve damage while they
> were installing the belt it would have been wrapping the moment the
> car was started?  Please let me know as your thoughts.
>
> Tomorrow is my day with the dealer to discuss exactly what has
> happened.
>
> Thanks for taking the time to respond.
> Tim
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:04:27 -0500
From: "David Thrower" <repairerr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Team3S: Transfer Case success
 
 I just wanted to send a short post about my recall. I dropped off the Stealth yesterday morning at Cumberland Valley Motors, in Mechanicsburg PA. for the Transfer Case Recall. (Dodge Dealer) I set up the appointment about 3 weeks ago, as I didn't want to run it in the snow and salt. They called back about 4 in the afternoon, and said to come pick it up. The service writer said that they inspected it and that the transfer case was bad. A new one was coming in to them at the first of the week from Milwaukee, and we could set up then to have it swapped out.  It seems like they know what they are doing. I will let you know how it all goes when its finished.  Dave Thrower  92 Stealth R/T TT
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:27:53 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 91 Stealth Twin Turbo
 
The car ran fine, the dealer released it to you Tim.  This absolutely was the Mechanic's fault.  If the belt did damage the first time, it would have shown up after the belt was replaced.  Here's what I think happened.  The mechanic did not take the time to properly adjust the tensioner, and did not take the time to rotate the engine 2 times and let it stand 10-15 minutes, and then rechecking the tensioner, as the procedure requires.  He's a dealer "Flat rate" mechanic that gets paid according to how quickly he can get the job done.  You drove the car, heated it up, and when it was sitting in your driveway, the belt "loosened," and the spring tension on the cam gears allowed the cam gears to jump. 
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:55:28 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: ECS
 
See your service manual or you can look at the last picture on my web page below.
 
http://www.stealth316.com/2-rearstorage.htm
 
Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/
 
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Singh" <joelsingh@primus.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 11:02 AM
 
where abouts is the ECS computer located.
 
92 GTO
Thanks
Joel.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:52:54 -0000
From: "Leo J. Fabilli" <fabilli@bignet.net>
Subject: Team3S: Basic Performance Modifications
 
I am considering making some basic mods to my car during and after the 60k maintenance. Nothing radical. Thinking of new K & N air box and filter system; exhaust system modification; and whatever useful suggestions you folks may have. The car is a 93 Stealth TT. It has run great from day 1 and seems to run as well as ever. I don't want modifications that alter the drivability and reliability of the car, just enhancements to the beautiful machine it already is.
 
Thanks,
 
Leo
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:45:20 -0000
From: "Leo J. Fabilli" <fabilli@bignet.net>
Subject: Team3S: 60k Maintenance
 
I'm getting ready to do my 60k maintenance. The factory manual goes thru a tensioner re-set for 60k and doesn't specify the water pump. It tracking messages here at Team 3S, it seems many change both the tensioner and pump at this interval. Any feedback from those going down either path would be appreciated. Don't want to do unnecessary things, but also don't want to go back in unexpectedly.
 
Thanks,
 
Leo
93 Stealth TT
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:00:07 -0000
From: "Leo J. Fabilli" <fabilli@bignet.net>
Subject: Team3S: Upsizing Wheels/Tires
 
My factory chrome 17's are beginning to pit and peel. I have found a vendor that has new factory replacements. But I am thinking of a change. I've been tracking Team 3S e-mails for sizes that work with our cars. However I haven't seen any messages that talking about adding "rake" to the car. What I mean is a bit larger in the rear than in the front. I know I love that look, but don't have any knowledge of how it affects handling on this type of car. I was thinking factory specs or maybe 1 up on the front. Maybe 2 or 3 sizes up on the rear. Feedback?
 
Thanks,
 
Leo
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:32:27 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: brake upgrade
 
1st gen 17" VR4 wheels will not fit properly with 2nd gen VR4 brakes.
 
Chuck Willis
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: cody [mailto:overclck@satx.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 6:30 AM
 
Nope.  You will also need the hub/steering knuckles.
 
Wheel selection - ask the VR4 track guys, seems like they know what does and doesn't fit...
 
- -Cody
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrzej Artymowicz [mailto:andrzej.artymowicz@wp.pl]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 3:10 AM
 
Hi Cody!
 
I'm planning to upgrade to bigger twin turbo brakes...
 
Do I need to buy only 2nd generation calipers, rotors and pads? With no other modifications?
 
regards
 
andrzej
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:36:19 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 60k Maintenance
 
It's clear from group experience that the water pump won't last 120K miles.  The work involved in getting access to replace the water pump is equivalent to the work done in replacing the timing belt.  By replacing the water pump with the timing belt change, you are avoiding the labor involved with replacing the water pump by itself later on.
 
Chuck Willis
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: Leo J. Fabilli [mailto:fabilli@bignet.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 3:45 AM
 
I'm getting ready to do my 60k maintenance. The factory manual goes thru a tensioner re-set for 60k and doesn't specify the water pump. It tracking messages here at Team 3S, it seems many change both the tensioner and pump at this interval. Any feedback from those going down either path would be appreciated. Don't want to do unnecessary things, but also don't want to go back in unexpectedly.
 
Thanks,
 
Leo
93 Stealth TT
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:39:40 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Upsizing Wheels/Tires
 
If you want to add rake to the car, do it with modifications to the suspension, NOT with wheel and tire sizes.  Your car is AWD with a limited slip differential and doesn't like different sized wheel/tire combinations between the front and back.
 
You can add rake using the GC setup (right Rich Merritt?) or any other adjustable ride height setup.
 
Chuck Willis
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: Leo J. Fabilli [mailto:fabilli@bignet.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:00 AM
 
My factory chrome 17's are beginning to pit and peel. I have found a vendor that has new factory replacements. But I am thinking of a change. I've been tracking Team 3S e-mails for sizes that work with our cars. However I haven't seen any messages that talking about adding "rake" to the car. What I mean is a bit larger in the rear than in the front. I know I love that look, but don't have any knowledge of how it affects handling on this type of car. I was thinking factory specs or maybe 1 up on the front. Maybe 2 or 3 sizes up on the rear. Feedback?
 
Thanks,
 
Leo
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:45:13 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Basic Performance Modifications
 
K&N air box is nice and will not affect drivability or reliability.
 
You should consider a boost controller and real boost gauge.  DSBC's are safer than manual BC's.
 
Exhaust system mods aren't going to affect reliability but also aren't likely to yield any performance benefits unless you eliminate the catalytic converters.
 
Modification of the suspension to improve performance, eg stiffer springs, lowering, will affect drivability around town, but you can avoid this by using shocks with adjustable stiffness - set them soft for driving around town.
 
Chuck Willis
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: Leo J. Fabilli [mailto:fabilli@bignet.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 3:53 AM
 
I am considering making some basic mods to my car during and after the 60k maintenance. Nothing radical. Thinking of new K & N air box and filter system; exhaust system modification; and whatever useful suggestions you folks may have. The car is a 93 Stealth TT. It has run great from day 1 and seems to run as well as ever. I don't want modifications that alter the drivability and reliability of the car, just enhancements to the beautiful machine it already is.
 
Thanks,
 
Leo
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:47:39 -0500
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Upsizing Wheels/Tires
 
Leo, glad you are enjoying your Stealth TT. Chuck Willis already beat me to say that different size tires front and rear are not recommended. This could ruin your viscous clutch because it would be operating a little during normal driving. A counter argument to this is that nobody that I know of has ruined their viscous clutch so far (and I think Geoff actually has or had a VR-4 with HUGE rear tires, if I remember correctly). A set of 245x40R-18 in the front are only within a few millimeters in diameter from 275x35R-18 that you could install in the rear. However I would not do it. Wider tires in the rear and narrower tires in the front would cause more understeer and this is what people are always trying to battle in our AWD cars.
 
Philip
 
- -----------------------------------------------------
 
My factory chrome 17's are beginning to pit and peel. I have found a vendor that has new factory replacements. But I am thinking of a change. I've been tracking Team 3S e-mails for sizes that work with our cars. However I haven't seen any messages that talking about adding "rake" to the car. What I mean is a bit larger in the rear than in the front. I know I love that look, but don't have any knowledge of how it affects handling on this type of car. I was thinking factory specs or maybe 1 up on the front. Maybe 2 or 3 sizes up on the rear. Feedback?
 
Thanks,
 
Leo
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:00:30 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Upsizing Wheels/Tires
 
>You can add rake using the GC setup (right Rich Merritt?) or any other
>adjustable ride height setup.
 
Yes. My car is so low in the front, it doubles as a road sweeper at tracks around the country.
 
See: http://www.bazillionbooks.com/hparknov2000.htm
 
It was so low, I had difficulty fitting my hand between the tire and the fender lip at the maximum height adjustment of the GC suspension. Now that I installed GABs up front, I gained back another half inch, but it still looks like it's looking for a hole. Talk about a RAKE!
 
I got it that low by installing Ground Control suspension with camber plates and short springs. The camber plates are what really drops it, because they replace the top mount, eliminating the top two inches of the strut. When we first put them in, the car was literally dragging on the ground. We couldn't get it on the alignment rack without a long helper ramp. Once we got it back in the air, we adjusted the GC to maximum height, and just barely cleared the tires.
 
I don't recommend this to anyone unless they WANT a car that low in front. Instead, I suggest the same thing but with longer springs, so it can be adjusted back up to a somewhat normal ride height. 'Splain it to Ground Control -- they'll know what you are talking about and can recommend the proper spring length.
 
Rich/slow old Rake/94 VR4
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:14:15 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Upsizing Wheels/Tires
 
One of the problems with coil overs and different spring rates is the fact that the weight of the car compresses the spring a fixed amount but that amount is different for different rates.
 
I had to go with a shorter spring when I went with the 900 # springs because they only compress a small amount compared to the 550's.
 
Ground control sent me a replacement set when we guessed wrong the first time --- I then sent the old set back.
 
        Jim Berry =================================================
 
> I got it that low by installing Ground Control suspension with camber
> plates and short springs. The camber plates are what really drops it,
> because they replace the top mount, eliminating the top two inches of
> the strut. When we first put them in, the car was literally dragging
> on the ground. We couldn't get it on the alignment rack without a long
> helper ramp. Once we got it back in the air, we adjusted the GC to
> maximum height, and just barely cleared the tires.
 
> I don't recommend this to anyone unless they WANT a car that low in
> front. Instead, I suggest the same thing but with longer springs, so
> it can be adjusted back up to a somewhat normal ride height. 'Splain
> it to Ground Control -- they'll know what you are talking about and
> can recommend the proper spring length.
 
> Rich/slow old Rake/94 VR4
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:31:52 -0800
From: Andrew Woll <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Team3S: Torque errors
 
Remember the posts regarding our discussion about torque errors we had some months ago. Well, totally by accident I came upon a website that has many very good technical discussions regarding the many types of errors endemic in the use of a torque wrench - even ones that are calibrated perfectly. This is very interesting reading.  Go to:
 
http://www.surebolt.com/
 
Andy
 
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 8:14 AM
 
> One of the problems with coil overs and different spring rates is the
> fact that the weight of the car compresses the spring a fixed amount
> but that amount is different for different rates.
>
> I had to go with a shorter spring when I went with the 900 # springs
> because they only compress a small amount compared to the 550's.
>
> Ground control sent me a replacement set when we guessed wrong the
> first time --- I then sent the old set back.
>
>         Jim Berry =================================================
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:55:54 -0600
From: "William J. Crabtree" <wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Torque errors
 
That is interesting!!   I'm sure these people know what they're
doing...especially if they've got NASA on board, but I'm curious about one thing.  Wouldn't different metals (different bolt material makeup) and different temperatures give different sonic response times (we're talking millionth's, maybe billionth's of a second here), especially given the extremely short distance the sonar is travelling.  Wouldn't variations in response time give inaccurate readings as well?  How could this device possibly know to adapt for different metals and alloys and temperature variations? Guess maybe that's all written into the software too...but damn, talk about science for the sake of science.  Tight is tight....if it ain't leakin', that's good enough for me!!
 
weird!!
 
- -Jeff Crabtree
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:59:32 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Torque errors
 
Interesting.  I can see using something like this for aerospace apps, but way, way overkill for a car. 
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:01:55 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Torque errors
 
For most cars I would agree however someone looking to make over 900-1K HP on any car this would be a very good way to ensure consistency in various bolt and nuts particularly head studs/bolts
 
Russ F
CT
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:01:29 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Torque errors
 
http://www.surebolt.com/
 
Hey good link.
 
I followed some of their links and found the web page below.
 
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm
 
It's good to know these folks have visited my web page
 
http://www.stealth316.com/2-converters.htm .
 
Much of their JavaScript is taken letter for letter from my code. Nice to know someone else liked what I wrote.  :)
 
Jeff Crabtree asked: "Wouldn't different metals (different bolt material makeup) and different temperatures give different sonic response times ...?"
 
Acoustic velocity is determined by the stiffness or rigidity of the material. Sound waves travel faster in stiffer material. This is often, but not always, positively correlated with the density of the material. However, acoustic velocity is actually inversely proportional to density.
 
So to answer the question, the sonic response is not determined so much by the metallurgy of the object ("different metals"), but by the object's internal structure. As an example of extremes, take water and ice. Sound waves travel about twice as fast in ice as they do in water. Ice is both more rigid and less dense than water, yet the composition is the same.
 
Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:49:56 -0800
From: Andrew Woll <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Torque errors
 
My quest for info began because when I went to retorque the head on my BMW the manual gave the instructions to torque in four stages. After the third stage, the fourth is to ANGLE TORQUE 35 degrees.  I had never heard of such a procedure so I started looking for the answer. One article I found indicated that torquing by feel alone has an error rate of plus or minus 35%. Using a torque wrench only brings the error rate to 25% and angle torquing brings the error rate to 15%.
 
I want something that will insure bolt stretch (read - tension), is within 0-5%.  So far the surebolt system is the only thing I have found.
 
I have read about strain gauges, but I have not come upon anything like that that I can actually use on my head bolts and then remove from the car. Since the subject applies directly to both my BMW and my stealth I think the post is on topic. Any ideas would be most appreciated.
 
Andy
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:59:20 -0500
From: songsay@cs.com
Subject: Team3S: flywheel
 
Hello friends,
 
Well, all of us know how exciting it is to get new toys in the mailbox. Well I just got an aluminum flywheel from 3sx and was wondering if those of you who have installed one have any suggestions or advice before I put it in. I will be using stock clutch plate. Thanks.
 
                    songsay 92 vr4
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:36:17 -0600
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Basic Performance Modifications
 
You should consider a boost controller and real boost gauge.  DSBC's are safer than manual BC's
 
I hate to rain on your parade, but this is not true at all.  Unless there are other Manual BC's out there that don't work like mine, I've had mine set for two months, here in San Antonio, it's 80 today, but 3 weeks ago, it was 35 degrees.  Today it was humid, yesterday it was dry. It stays rock solid at whatever boost setting I have it at, and it's much easier for ANYONE to setup.  No duty cycles, no blah blah blah, turn one knob, one direction for more boost, the opposite direction for less boost...  It's so easy, and so fool proof.  The only PITA is that you have to get out of the car to change the boost setting, but if you're like me, on a turbo car it's best to tune for one boost setting and leave it there.  The less you play with it the better off you are...
 
- -Cody
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:04:07 -0600
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Fuel Pressure
 
This is regarding my '91 Talon, but it works the same as the 3000's...
 
Fuel pressure base (without any vacuum lines connected) should be 38 psi on the Talon.  Now, the statement - it should rise 1 psi fuel pressure for every 1 psi of boost, correct?  If it doesn't, and I know it's not the fuel filter or pump (at least very low possibility as they are both brand new aftermarket units), then it is most likely the regulator, correct?
 
Now, one other question, and I have no clue as to the answer...  With the car idling normally, at about 19 mm/hg vacuum, what should fuel pressure be?  Should it be the base fuel pressure, or should it be base fuel pressure -19???
 
BTW - I just bought the Nordskog Digital Fuel Pressure gauge with peak and low memory, very nice setup, fairly easy to install, and will work with VR4's as well...  Cost about $120 from Summit Racing...  (install consisted of some creative thinking - I drilled a hole in the center of the banjo bolt fitting, tapped it to 1/8 NPT, and installed a 1/8 to 1/4 NPT adapter, then the sender screwed right into that...  I took the idea from the fuel pressure warning unit that came with my Nitrous kit for my non-turbo 3000)
 
- -Cody
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:07:49 -0500
From: "Tim" <tim@onlineracing.tv>
Subject: Team3S:
 
Hi, I just wanted to thank the list members for recommending Dave at www.enhancedstreetperformance.com.  I just spoke with him & he's the 1st guy (aside from the list members of course) who seems to really understand the turbo V6.  When his schedule allows I think I'll be having him bring my 91 stealth back to life.  We are just deciding upon if this engine can be saved or if I should grab a rebuild. Anyway, thanks again.  This list is an incredibly valuable resource.
 
My battle with the dealership continues on Monday but I definitely would not have them turn another wrench on this car.  If you like to hear how the saga plays out on Monday just let me know. lol.
 
Again, thanks to all for the help thus far
Take care,
Tim
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:16:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Bret Duvall <teeminus@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Stock Turbo Model for VR4
 
What is the model of the stock turbos on a '93 VR4?
 
Size?
 
- -Bret
 
'93 VR4
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:17:51 -0600
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stock Turbo Model for VR4
 
TD04-9B on all US cars.
 
- -Cody
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:23:37 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Torque errors
 
Looks like a gee whiz way to measure bolt stretch --- stretch is and has been the preferred method of tightening bolts. ARP would prefer you get a stretch gauge and they even provide the stretch value. The problem is it's easy when you have access to both ends e.g.. a nut and bolt, but you don't have that option in a head bolt. You could probably read stretch on a head stud by using a runout gauge to measure
how much if the stud sticks up above the head floor or if you had a few extra bucks laying around you could buy their ultrasonic device.
 
        Jim Berry =======================================================
 
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Woll" <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 11:31 AM
 
> Remember the posts regarding our discussion about torque errors we had
> some months ago. Well, totally by accident I came upon a website that
> has many very good technical discussions regarding the many types of
> errors endemic in the use of a torque wrench - even ones that are
> calibrated perfectly. This is very interesting reading.  Go to:
>
> http://www.surebolt.com/
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 02:52:28 -0800
From: "Bradford J. Gay" <bradfordjgay@charter.net>
Subject: Team3S: My Baby is Gone (Somewhat OT)
 
As I write this, the letter to the new owner of a 1997 3000GT VR-4 prints out.  I finally sold it and I'm moving on to a 1991 Galant VR-4 for the time being.  Being that I'm 20, insurance was killing me ($1550/six months) so I had to let her go.  I do plan to stay on the list (if that's okay with Bob) and put my two-cents in here and there and continue to learn about our amazing cars.  Give me another few years and I'll be back at it.  I'll either get my VR-4 Spyder or I'll take a first-gen and build it to drag.  Anyhow, just thought I should deliver the sad news and anyone who would like to consul me *L* reply privately.
 
- -Brad
1997 3000GT VR-4 (gone)
1991 Galant VR-4
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #103
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