Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, February 11 2003 Volume
02 : Number 078
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:32:40 -0500
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
RE: Team3S: AEM EMS (Was: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?)
I have the DIY-WB kit. If I manage to solder it correctly then I will order
the sensors. I think I will solder two kits and install two sensors in my
Stillen downpipe's secondary O2 sensor bungs. Then I will be able to tell for
sure which of the banks is running leaner. Maybe I could figure some algorithm
how to tune each of the cylinders individually using only one O2 sensor per
bank...
Philip
- --------------------------------------
Maybe I did just forget. :) In any case, you've got your
priority right - a working WB02 is essential in tuning the AEM. Have you
ordered a sensor and kit yet?
- - Brian
------------------------------
Can anyone recommend a good place to get wiper blades at a good price?
Also, does the name brand of a blade matter. I used to buy Bosch for my car but
I don't know if the additional price actually paid for anything special.
I have a 2g VR4 in Cali (SF). My car is parked for most of the time (travel
for work) but I have a car cover for it.
Thanks
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:27:04 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wiper blades
Well, I use BOSCH Twin Spoiler. The best ones and larger than stock ones. I
buy them at the local hobby shop ... but that's not really in SF
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:45:09 -0800
From: "Edward Vinces" <
ed@compros.com>
Subject: Team3S: Wiper
Blades
Michael:
I live in Pacifica, bought wiper blades for my 91 VR4 with arms
at Grand Auto for $11.99 ea, model numbers are 201, 203 and 211. They seem to be
OK. Ed
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:51:04 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Wiper blades
I've been using the Specialty Silicone blades (GE silicone) for about 1.5
years (same set) and I've never used a better blade. I decided to try them
out when they approached us about giving us a Team3S discount. They come
in 5 colors (I tried the red, to match my car - they match but red still looks
funny to me). ;-) I'll get black next time. They are on the
"Good Guys" dealers and vendors page - find them in the Team3S FAQ
Index... I can't recommend them enough! Great 1-swipe blade,
guaranteed for 5 years!
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:03:30 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: help with diagnosing
Trust the error code.
Be sure there is a very small bit of slack in the throttle cable so the
throttle plate closes completely (at least the cable should not be holding
the
throttle plate slightly open when at idle).
Check the TPS/IPS (resistance) when the engine is off using the
instructions
in the service manual.
Check the TPS/IPS with the engine running by measuring the voltage at the
ECU.
Do this using a datalogger (TPS only; IPS shows always off for 3S cars)
or
with a voltmeter. Be VERY CAREFUL using a voltmeter on the ECU terminals
with
the engine running. Each ECU connector has "doors" or "flaps" on it
that
rotate open (along both outer long edges) and let you have easy access
with a
probe to the terminals. The service manuals and my web page below
indicate the
terminals to check and what the voltage should be at various
positions of the
TPS and IPS.
I have performed these measurements when I was diagnosing poor idle quality
after my engine rebuild (turned out to be CAS set too much basic advance).
Just be careful to not short across the terminals. The only other easy way
to
get voltage readings that I know of would be to remove a small bit of
insulation from the harness wires near the TPS/IPS connector and tap them
there. Maybe it's possible to slide a thin wire into the connector or
between
the two connector pieces - never tried it.
Now that I think about it, the datalogger might report TPS voltage without
the
engine running. The ignition switch would have to be in the on position
to get
juice to the ECU and to the datalogger cable. You don't mention what
year car
you have so I don't know if a datalogger is even an option for
you.
The TPS/IPS connects to 4 terminals on the ECU (see Fuel System section in
your service manual for terminal assignments).
1) +5V power from the ECU to the TPS (variable resistance throttle position
sensor)
2) monitors voltage across the TPS resistor
3) provides ground
for the TPS and IPS (and some other sensors)
4) +5V power from the ECU to the
IPS (on-off idle position switch)
There are no other devices between the ECU and TPS/IPS. So check the
connectors and harness to be sure there are no breaks or shorts.
If the TPS/IPS checks out OK resistance-wise with engine off but the
voltage
readings are wrong, suspect a problem with the harness or a
connector.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Tanenbaum" <
gtg509d@mail.gatech.edu>
Sent:
Sunday, February 09, 2003 1:19 PM
Hello,
How are you? I have been having quite a time with my car, and I think
it all
comes back to the original problem I've been having that has not been
pinpointed. The computer is showing an error message - "14 - TPS
signal out
of range". The TPS has been replaced as well as the
computer (the computer is
now a remanufactured one), so I don't think either
of these components are the
problem. What are the other players in the
relay from the throttle to the TPS
to the computer?
My car is running pretty poorly since it is confused. I'll press on
the gas
and gas will flow, but the car isn't making a good mixture at
all.
Thank you very much for the help.
Michael
ps. If you could, please also reply to my address - thanks.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:57:53 -0500
From: Vinny <
vinman3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Wiper Blades
PIIA has new silicone blades out, I think they are $20 each. I
have them on y 93 VR4 and they ROCK. But I must admit I am stupid because
I don't drive the car in rain or snow (garage queen) DOH!
Vinny
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:21:49 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Wiper Blades
I highly recommend the PIIA silicone wipers blades. They're by far
the best wiper I've ever used, and coming from a northwest native, that's saying
something. :)
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:10:03 -0500
From: "Trevor Paciotti" <
sam_or_i@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Wiper blades
How much do those Specialty Silicone blades run? Just wondering!
Trevor
I've been using the Specialty Silicone blades (GE silicone) for about 1.5
years (same set) and I've never used a better blade. I decided to try them
out when they approached us about giving us a Team3S discount. They come
in 5 colors (I tried the red, to match my car - they match but red still looks
funny to me). ;-) I'll get black next time. They are on the
"Good Guys" dealers and vendors page - find them in the Team3S FAQ
Index... I can't recommend them enough! Great 1-swipe blade,
guaranteed for 5 years!
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:23:26 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Wiper blades
Price is on the Team3S "Good Guys" page. I think it's $13/blade less
10% Team3S discount, or $11.70 per, (last time I looked).
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:04:20 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Wiper blades
Similar topic but does anyone know of a replacement to the spring that
holds the wiper blade to the windshield? With the winter blades I notice
any speed above about 75 mph causes them to not wipe cleanly on the return
stroke (which unfortunately is the last stroke through which you see).
With the summer blades (stock arms I think and not solid but vented and stuff)
they can withstand a much higher speed but even at lower speeds and some
grit/grime on the window I think the stock springs on the wiper arms are not
doing a good enough job anymore.
Is it easier (read: cheaper) to replace the entire arm or find a place that
sells a spring (or stiffer spring) to replace the one in the arm?
I would like to get, say, 22" blades to clear the stuff past the tinting on
the top of the windshield but the blade is not pushed onto the glass at this
height since the spring has lost some of its bungee so I am stuck back at the
19"-20" length.
- --Flash!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 07:54:32 -0500
From: "Mike Shupp" <
mshupp@rothrock.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Drivability-cold engine-spits and sputters cold-unable to accelerate
until warm.
Hello All,
I'm looking for assistance with 91 Dodge Stealth Turbo, vehicle
identification number- jb3xe74c7my011521. Vehicle has a cold engine problem
where the car spits and sputters, also seems to backfire until vehicle warms up.
The problem is so severe in the cold weather the vehicle needs to idle 15
minutes before you can drive. The recent repairs that have been performed on the
vehicle are- spark plugs and ignition cables, also replaced the Mass Airflow
Sensor (vehicle would run cold with sensor unplugged but lost idle quality).
None of these repairs have helped the above condition. We also have performed
drivability tests on vehicle-no codes in the system and fuel pressure is ok, o2
sensors and coolant sensors are operating properly. Last year the vehicle
had upper engine work due to timing belt failure, the current mileage on the
vehicle is 131,000. If anyone has experienced this type of problem and can help-
It would be appreciated greatly.
Thanks, Mike
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 06:43:35 -0700
From: Desert Fox <
bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Wiper blades
I've been running some Teflon wiper blades now for quite some time that are
working out great. They seem to perform well when cold and dirty, which is often
for me.
- --
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi
exit
formerly reasonable and prudent
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:47:40 -0600
From: "Vineet Singh \(3S\)" <
stealthtt@ecanfix.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?
One thing to keep in mind is the non symmetric intake manifold design.
Although it is far better than the DSM intake manifold, perhaps it creates flow
to each cylinder, not so equal. Any cylinder seeing more of the air, will run
leaner than the rest.
My definition of cylinders is
1(front bank, closest to timing belt, 2(rear bank, closest to timing belt,
3(front bank, middle), 4 (rear bank middle), 5 (front bank near ignition
modules), 6(guess which one's left :)
Given that, and the fact that the knock sensor is slightly closer to the #4
cyl than any others, I guess #4, #1, and #2 probably get the most air, in
possibly that order. You would think that 1 and 2 would get the most air on the
3/S, but this is not the case after testing a DSM intake manifold, #2 gets
slightly more air. I'm not a aerodynamics engineer, but perhaps it has something
to do with pressure waves and ridges as all that air rushes into what we would
hope to be equally flowing areas.
It shouldn't be hard to get the stock intake manifold setup flow tested,
and see if comparable cfm is flowed through each port.
RE: Indeed we found several problems with #1 is breaking first on 1st gens
and #4 on second gens. I still have no idea why because nobody knows what the
differences in the blocks or heads are in between those ages. Even more, Luis's
93'3000GT from Europe has a 2nd gen engine like mine and he also had troubles in
#1 although in others too.
The only thing the is different on #1 is the length of the runner of the
front header to the turbo flange. This may cause the biggest danger for
backpressure acting more quick compared to the other exhaust exits. this may
cause lean spots in the chamber on the next cycle and therefore harmful
detonation. Unfortunately, #4 has the same problem as it also has the shortest
distance to the flange ... maybe this thought has really something in it. If
there is another turbine mounted that causes less backpressure due to the better
ratio the problem may be less.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:58:14 -0500
From: Vinny <
vinman3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re:
RE: Team3S: Wiper blades
Funny you mentioned wiper springs. My 86 Toyota pickup truck needs
new
springs so I went to LOWES, in there spring section they have all
sorts of small springs. I bought one there after shortening I, it
seems to work pretty good, cheap too!
Vinny
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Darren Schilberg <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Date:
Tuesday, February 11, 2003 1:04 am
Subject: RE: Team3S: Wiper blades
> Similar topic but does anyone know of a replacement to the spring
that
> holds the wiper blade to the windshield? With the winter
blades I
> notice any speed above about 75 mph causes them to not wipe
cleanly on
> the return stroke (which unfortunately is the last stroke
through
> which you see). With the summer blades (stock arms I
think and not
> solid but
> vented and stuff) they can withstand a
much higher speed but even at
> lower speeds and some grit/grime on the
window I think the stock
> springs on the wiper arms are not doing a good
enough job anymore.
>
> Is it easier (read: cheaper) to replace the
entire arm or find a place
> that sells a spring (or stiffer spring) to
replace the one in the arm?
>
> I would like to get, say, 22"
blades to clear the stuff past the
> tinting on the top of the windshield
but the blade is not pushed onto
> the glass at this height since the
spring has lost some of its bungee
> so I am stuck back at the 19"-20"
length.
>
> --Flash!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:47:13 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: RE: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?
I sure would love to see this done! Has anyone done this, or know of
a place that would do it?
- - Brian
> It shouldn't be hard to get the stock intake
manifold setup flow
> tested, and see if comparable cfm is flowed through
each port.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:30:04 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: RE: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?
I don't know what the cost would be, but I propose pooling some funds to
get this done. I'd be happy to donate some money! :)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geddes, Brian J
> Sent:
Tuesday, February 11, 2003 9:47 AM
>
> I sure would love to see
this done! Has anyone done this, or
> know of a place that would do
it?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:37:48 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?
What will be the outcome then ??? Just a flow number or how much each
runner can flow ? What would it help ?
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Sent:
Tuesday, February 11, 2003 7:30 PM
> I don't know what the cost would be, but I propose pooling some funds
> to get this done. I'd be happy to donate some money!
:)
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geddes,
Brian J
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 9:47 AM
>
>
> > I sure would love to see this done! Has anyone done
this, or know
> > of a place that would do it?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:42:53 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: RE: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?
A flow number for each runner is what I'm after, at a variety of different
flow rates. It'd be a nice answer to the old question of whether certain
cylinders run lean. For people doing injector flow tests, they could put
the injectors that flow a little more in the cylinders that get a little more
air. If you have an AEM, it has the capability for individual cylinder
fuel trim, so you could compensate explicitly for the flow differences.
- - Brian
> What will be the outcome then ??? Just a flow number or how
>
much each runner can flow ? What would it help ?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:06:41 -0500
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
RE: Team3S: RE: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?
I could always accept some donations! ;-)
For $300 I would buy six EGT probes, one gauge and one thermocouple switch
and tune my AEM EMS to produce the same temperature readings in each of the
exhaust ports. Then we will know how much each cylinder flows. You supply the
parts, I provide the car and the labor!
Philip
- ---------------------------------------------
I don't know what the cost would be, but I propose pooling some funds to
get this done. I'd be happy to donate some money! :)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 11:16:45 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: RE: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?
Not quite what I was thinking of. There are so many things that can
affect EGTs other than A/F (timing, charge temp, etc), and it's not a very
precise way of determining A/F ratios. I think putting the sucker on a
flow bench is the way to go.
Besides, if we were going to go with your suggestion, I'd offer up my car
too. :)
- - Brian
> I could always accept some donations!
;-)
>
> For $300 I would buy six EGT probes, one gauge and
one
> thermocouple switch and tune my AEM EMS to produce the
> same
temperature readings in each of the exhaust ports.
> Then we will know how
much each cylinder flows. You
> supply the parts, I provide the car and
the labor!
>
> Philip
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 11:32:02 -0800
From: "Damon Rachell" <
DamonR@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
RE: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?
I'll drop $20 to do so. Plus, I can get my hands on a couple of the
JDM intakes which are tumble intakes. They look close to stock intakes,
but each runner is split in to two separate paths. I believe that each
path merges right before the head intake ports. It would be interesting to
see if they get greater velocity at low revs, which would improve low end
torque.
Damon
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:31:42 -0500
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
RE: Team3S: RE: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?
My guess why #6 cylinder is the hottest is because it is the closest to the
air intake. It gets the same amount of fuel but more air than other cylinders,
which makes it run lean and also with more load.
The timing and the charge temperature are the same in all the cylinders.
Engine loan and the A/F ratio are the two most important contributors to the EGT
changes. I would vary the individual injector duty cycles to keep the EGTs the
same and that would tell me which of the cylinders are getting more air. The EGT
method would also tell exactly by how much I would have to increase/decrease
individual injector duty cycles in order to have close O2 ratios in each of the
cylinders.
Bench-flowing an intake manifold would tell only how good the manifold is.
But the manifold alone is not what determines how air much each *cylinder* would
flow. There are other factors there such as the lower intake (which also must be
flown), intake runners, exhaust runners and most importantly the exhaust
manifold.
I guess flowing an intake manifold would give some clues, but I would have
a hard time interpreting the data. Even if we flow the exact same CFM through
the throttle body as we do at WOT, we still would not be able to reproduce the
flow oscillations that occur in the intake manifold and undoubtedly affect the
flow to each of the cylinders.
I think it would have been ideal to install six WB O2 sensors on an engine,
but I doubt that it is feasible financially. I think six EGTs is the next best
thing. The readings would be very accurate is this data is logged and averaged
over a long period of time.
Brian, I would give you $30 if you are willing to install individual EGT
probes in you exhaust manifolds.
Philip
- ------------------------------------
Not quite what I was thinking of. There are so many things that can
affect EGTs other than A/F (timing, charge temp, etc), and it's not a very
precise way of determining A/F ratios. I think putting the sucker on a
flow bench is the way to go.
Besides, if we were going to go with your suggestion, I'd offer up my car
too. :)
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:39:59 -0600
From: "Lim, Yong H SPC"
<
yong.lim@sill.army.mil>
Subject:
Team3S: 60k service question(this will be my last one)
Sorry, I am just asking questions....
I have been really busy
lately with school stuff and work so I just didn't have enough time(& money)
to get on with my 60k service(I have been doing some readings though)
I pretty much looked at all the 60k faq/help sheets(plus all the
mails I got), I realized that it wasn't something I could handle by
myself. So, I am thinking of taking it to a shop and get everything done
so I don't have to drive my car with a fear of breaking down. I want to
get it done this Friday(it's training holiday). I would really appreciate
it if any of you out there can recommend me some good shops around Oklahoma or
texas(within about 300 miles from Lawton, ok) I want to get a full 60k
service and my budget is around $1200.
Thank you for all the
help in advance..(hopefully, I will be able to contribute some useful info to
this mailing list one of these days...until then, I guess I have no choice but
to be in invisible/newbie mode:)
SPC Lim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:10:08 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE: Is it true cylinder #1 runs hotter?
> My guess why #6 cylinder is the hottest is because it is the closest
> to the air intake. It gets the same amount of fuel but more air
than
> other cylinders, which makes it run lean and also with more
load.
I'm still not with this !
As the pressure in the plenum is the same in all parts of it, and the lower
transfer channel takes care of this too, I believe that all cylinders are
getting the same amount of air. Just look at the runners all together and
compare to the turbine intake hole. In no way will the intake runners be
outflowed. As long as there is the same pressure in them and no heavy
restriction causes a problem, the flow is the same.
So what I'm asking myself is what happens if one intake runner is ported
and the others not. What happens there, is there more flow in only this runner ?
Again pressure is the same but due to the changed size and less restrictions
more air can flow at the same pressure.
Now just a calculation : Let's say the turbos are flowing 600cfm at 1 bars
together. This 600cfm is divided into the 6 runners, 100cfm each with a boost of
1 bar measured in the plenum. So the theory is that if one runner flows better,
it will flow 150cfm and the other 90cfm each, causing a leaner mixture in this
cylinder.
But now just think about the capacity of the runners. If each of them can
flow 200cfm at 1 bar of boost there is no restriction at all and each one is
getting the same amount of air. Why should now one runner flow more air when all
have more capacity than the amount they are fed with ??
Even more, the opening time of the valves is the same on all cylinders.
Since we have the same pressure in all runners the valves and their openings
become the restriction and they get the same filling as they all flow the same
there. What helps a runner that is capable to flow 200cfm at 1 bar if the valves
ports can only flow 50cfm at 1 bar ? Nothing but to know that they are not a
restriction.
Therefore, test your heads about flow because this is what counts. Testing
the runners only give you the limitation of airflow when they start to become a
restriction. I bet that the heads are gonna be the first restriction.
So why is one gonna porting the heads and polish the channels ? To flow
more air ? Yes, the heads can be improved as there are many edges that can be
eliminated to increase the flow around the valves. If the result of the possible
flow of the head is compared to the intake plenum, intake manifold, y-pipe,
throttle body and so on, the most possible restriction should be found.
Thoughts ?
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#78
**************************************