Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, February 6 2003 Volume
02 : Number 074
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:39:01 -0600
From: "Dan Hyde" <
danielhyde@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Suspension : Tein HA Coilover and JIC Coilover
I picked up the March issue of "Sport Compact Car" magazine this evening.
On page 57 I noticed the advertisement about the Tein Flex & EDFC setup
indicating it is available for the 3000GT 90-98.
I have an email queued up with 3SXPerformance to see what that's all
about
that. An earlier reply indicated that the Tein HA is he the
only mod avail
for the 30000GT!
Can you find out if this is true? -
Is it possible to get my hands on this setup for a 3000GT VR4?
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Damon Rachell" <
DamonR@mefas.com>
Sent: Wednesday,
February 05, 2003 4:02 PM
Dan,
The EDFC will not be available for our cars on the TEIN HA
kits. The JICs are height adjustable while not altering the spring
compression; something which the HAs don't offer. Both offer excellent
quality as far as coilover upgrades are concerned. TEIN will be offering a
Flex Damper system, which is similar in construction to the JICs in a few
months, FYI.
Fastmax has a complete set of adjustable shocks, camber plates, and ground
control coilovers available (used but not many miles on them) for $1100.
This is cheaper than what both coilover systems can be had for.
Good luck.
Damon
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <
danielhyde@attbi.com>
Sent:
Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:54 PM
> I am investigating a couple suspension upgrade options. Possibly
I
> can solicit some feedback here for input to consider in the decision
> process.
>
> My primary goal is to reduce body roll when
cornering and secondarily
> to lower the ride stance a moderate amount -
mostly for cosmetic
> reasons. I'm fundamentally ok with a result
that does produce a
> "stiffer" ride but I can't define the degree of
"stiffer" that I am
> willing to tolerate. My approach to solve this
uncertainty is to use
> struts with adjustable damping.
>
>
There seem to be two choices available:
> 1) Tein HA Coilover
> 2)
JIC Coilover Suspension Kit FLT-A2
>
> I have assumed for a long
time that I would end up with Tein and
> recently I noticed 3SX
Performance
>
http://www.3sxperformance.com/suspension.asp
is showing a demo of the
> EDFC (Electronic Damping Force Controller) on
their web site which
> might be an interesting add-on.
>
>
Then...I run across the JIC Coilover Suspension Kit FLT-A2
>
> They
appear to provide similar functionality and design.
> a) Adjustable ride
height
> b) Adjustable dampening (16 or 15 settings)
>
> I am
still intrigued by the "potential" future Electronic Damping
> Force
Controller that Tein seems to be working on which I assume would
>
provide remote and dynamic ride adjustment.
>
> Any opinions and/or
experiences anyone wishes to share?
>
> Thanks
> Dan
>
97 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 10:06:45 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: what do you think of this widebody Kit??
This kit is there since a long time, the designer is from France but some
guy is making the molds in his backyard.
Weight saving ? None at all .. it will add weight. Just take your stock
bumper cover off and you can lift it with two fingers ! Anything else made
not of polyurethane is heavier for sure.
Aerodynamic change ? Forget that. Or do you really think that those hobby
mold-makers have the money to go to a wind tunnel and test the car before
and after ? No way... even the larger ones like Bomex don't do this at
all.
Just remember, that body kits are only for look ... that's it.
At 15:48 05.02.2003 -0600, bigbucho wrote:
>hey this guy in France
has made a widebody kit for our
>cars, I like it a lot, I'm talking with
him and trying to get a group
>buy going... check out the pics
here
>
>http://www.jacquemond.com/3000.htm
>
>Jeff
Jackson
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:16:56 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Crossdrilled Rotors
In this month's Road & Track Technical Correspondence section, a reader
was asking about the benefits of using cross-drilled rotors versus rotors where
the holes are forged/cast. The question boiled down to whether the rotors
with holes provide any braking benefit, or whether they were merely cosmetic,
adding to the "sportier" look of the car. The Technical Editor had this to
say: "The real difference is between drilled and non-drilled rotors.
All those holes detract from a rotor's mass, and high mass content is a main
ingredient in avoiding warping . . . Cosmetics is why most rotors are drilled
nowadays-the old gassing problem that holes are supposed to address is
negligible with good pads and all but absurdly flamboyant street driving-so,
many aftermarket brake tuners offer rotors with or without drilling to suit
demand."
If I understand the response, the Technical Editor's position is that
except for absurdly flamboyant street drivers, and perhaps racers, there is no
benefit to drilled rotors. In fact, for the "Every-day driver," they may
detract from the braking system by decreasing rotor mass, thus leading to
premature warping. Thoughts?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 05:36:48 -0700
From: "Jim Floyd" <
jim_floyd7@earthlink.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Cross drilled Rotors
I'd rather have the mass than the holes.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 14:43:07 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Crossdrilled Rotors
Fact : Do any race cars like Rally, F1, NASCAR, DTM, CART and whatever have
crossdrilled rotors ? ... No !
Interesting : Ferrari and Porsche Challenges (track racing of similar
cars) have them (cast). But AFAIK, the Porsche GT3 CS (Club Sport) setup
has not crossdrilled ones.
What I've learned is that using FERRODO race pads on my Bremsa rotors on a
1 day training, all the holes and slots where full of cooked pad dust. They
are wobbling when cold, what is very annoying in winter but when they are
warmed up they stop like a champ. If the bedding procedure is followed
correctly I also believe that the gassing problem is not an issue
anymore.
My stock 3000GT got heavily warped and faded horrible during braking on the
German Autobahn. Therefore it's an additional safety margin for me. But I'm
positive that the extra safety would be there with plain Bremsas.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 08:48:33 -0500
From: Thor Holth <
thorholth@snet.net>
Subject: Team3S:
1991 Dodge Stealth R/T Turbo for Sale in S/E Connecticut
Hey all:
I'm looking to sell my 1991 Stealth r/t turbo, which is
presently in storage in southeastern Connecticut (in New London, near Groton and
Mystic if you know where those towns are).
I have not driven the car more than a couple thousand
miles in the last year, and would rather see someone else enjoy the car, instead
of it resting in storage. That being said, here are the details:
1991 Stealth R/T Turbo, AWD.
Mileage: approx 125,000
Exterior Color:
Red
Interior Color: Black (leather)
Wheels restored to factory spec and re-painted by Precision
Wheel
New Tires 5,000 miles ago.
60
k service performed @ 112,000 Miles (new water pump, pulleys,
etc.)
A/C converted from R12 to R134a (dealer installed,
nice alternative
to
paying for a recharge, anyway. See
my
prior post regarding this, as
the
conversion, with freon, cost about
$150,
as opposed to a R12 refill for
hundreds
more.)
ECU has been repaired/upgraded as of last year by
outfit in FLA
recommended by Jeff
Lucius (I think it was auto and
truck
electronics).
Transfer Case replaced by Dodge in 2001 -
T/C has about 5k miles on it
Mods: Car is completely
original, with following
exceptions:
i. K&N
Filterpack/Filtercharger (I forgot which, but had not
yet
even
been through its first recharge. It's the filter
which
replaces the stock airbox and fastens directly to the
MAS)
ii. Replaced stock oil, turbo
and water temp gauges
with
Autometer Phantom gauges. Also added fuel pressure, a/f
ratio
and
Air temp gauges (latter is digital by cyberdyne). Air
temp
A/F
ratio interchange on A-pillar mount, turbo is mounted
above
on
a-pillar. For individual sensing of each cylinder bank,
A/F
ratio
has selector switch mounted on console.
This would be a great project car for someone looking to
get into mods, for two reasons: First, car runs great as it is, so mods
could be put off until later. Second, you'd be starting with a blank
slate.
Included would be a brand new "Noah" fabric car
cover. Allows car to "breath" so moisture isn't trapped against paint, but
outside layer repels rain water. By the way, no rust on car. I've owned it
for two years, and never driven it during winter or early spring.
The car needs nothing, except gas. Current synthetic oil
has only 300 miles on it.
Sad to
see it go, but hate to see it sit there.
I can e-mail pics to anybody interested.
Asking price - $7,500, but reasonable offers
entertained.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:20:44 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Open Element Filters Cause Pre-Detonation?
Here's another interesting question in the same Road & Track. A
reader was inquiring about why his 2001 Mustang Cobra developed pinging after a
few months of driving. Ford was unable to diagnose the problem. Road
& Track's editor suggested that the cause may be an aftermarket,
open-element filter: "With performance cars, [pinging is inevitably caused by]
something the owner modified. Equipment substitutions as innocuous as an
air filter can upset the touchy computer calibration sufficiently to cause
pinging. Common culprits are open-element, cone-shaped air filters (hot
underhood air), aftermarket mass air meters (incompatible calibration, a very
typical problem) and open-element breathers atop the valve covers (admits air
downstream of the mass air meter and upstream of the throttle, thus leaning the
mixture).
I've had my K&N now for years with no knock counts on the pocketlogger.
Thoughts?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:18:00 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Open Element Filters Cause Pre-Detonation?
>> I've had my K&N now for years with no knock counts on the
>> pocketlogger. Thoughts?
Yes. First. The underhood temps are only 10-20ºF above ambient when the car
is
moving (at least so I have recorded on a 95ºF Denver summer day). Second,
the
IC lowers the heated turbo exit air to somewhat-near ambient temps
(depends on
IC efficiency and heat soak).
It's true that higher ambient temps will increase the chances for
detonation
(higher intake temp as well as higher IC exit temp). I have seen
this on
datalogs during the middle of a hot day (get some knock) compared to
early
morning the same day (cool temp, and no knock). WI offers an effective
solution (pun intended). :)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 16:21:46 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Open Element Filters Cause Pre-Detonation?
>was inquiring about why his 2001 Mustang Cobra developed pinging after
>a few months of driving. Ford was unable to diagnose the
problem.
>Road & Track's editor suggested that the cause may be
an aftermarket,
>open-element filter:
Haha, LOL. Easy test : Put back on the stock filter and run the test
again.
> "With performance cars, [pinging is inevitably
>caused by]
something the owner modified. Equipment substitutions as
>innocuous
as an air filter can upset the touchy computer calibration
>sufficiently
to cause pinging. Common culprits are open-element,
>cone-shaped air
filters (hot underhood air)
This is just a guessing of the writer and pretty much bullshit. Otherwise
the car must start pinging in summer and will not in winter. The flow and
temperature difference of course is measured by the system what then adapts
!!
>, aftermarket mass air meters
This is true of course... just look at the many wrong calibrated fuel
computers.
> and open-element
>breathers atop the valve covers (admits
air downstream of the mass air
>meter and upstream of the throttle, thus
leaning the mixture).
This is wrong.. what does a breather on the valve cover have to do with the
air metered ... nothing that could be mentioned.
>I've had my K&N now for years with no knock counts on the
pocketlogger.
And so have Millions of others :-))
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:50:25 -0500
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
Re: Team3S: 1995 SL Stalling and cutting off!!
Try starting it after it sat overnight, when it is still cold. If it runs
longer and then dies, then the problem is that the ECU is not getting a correct
signal from the MAS.
If is does not idle well when it is cold, then the problem is somewhere in
the idle control system, perhaps the servo motor (I am not very familiar with
that area, but that is a more likely problem than the first).
Philip
- -------------------------------------------------------
Hello All,
I just purchased a used 1995 Mitsu
3000GT SL and it has been running great for about a week. Today I stopped at a
red light and the car sputtered and went dead. I placed it in park and restarted
the car and it did it again every I took my foot off of the gas pedal. This is
my first tank of gas that I have let run below 1/4 of a tank so I think maybe I
have trash in the bottom of the tank that is causing this.
The car had a bad auto transmission when I bought it so I
think it must have sat in a garage for awhile before I bought and put in the new
tranny. Any help would be great.
Thanks
Chris Blackman
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:46:55 -0500
From: "John Monnin" <
John.Monnin@3si.zzn.com>
Subject:
Team3S: 2nd gen calipers on 1st gen VR-4 with stock rims?
Will 2nd gen front brakes from a 95 VR4 clear my stock rims on my 91
VR-4?
When I was looking at Big Red calipers for my 91 VR4 I had 2 people
email me that they were able to install big reds with stock 1st gen
wheels and rotors, one person used wheel spacers and the other
persons
installed them w/o wheel spacers and they fit but they did not
drive the
car.
I am assuming the bigger rotors and calipers would help on a road
course. Has anyone done this or is the improvement not worth the
effort? The only reason I am considering this is that I found some
decent deals on 2nd gen brakes rotors and calipers ($300-400) when
people upgraded to bigger brakes. I like my stock rims and I can't
afford both brakes and wheels this year.
John Monnin
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:53:53 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: 2nd gen calipers on 1st gen VR-4 with stock rims?
On my stock 93's they did NOT fit..... I was in the same boat a
local guy
had upgrade to 2G calipers on all 4 corners and then went and got
the Stillen kit up front. He said they wouldn't fit but did I
listen.....
Russ F
CT USA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:40:48 -0800
From: "Damon Rachell" <
DamonR@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Suspension : Tein HA Coilover and JIC Coilover
Currently, the Flex system is not available publicly for the 3000gt.
It will become available within the next couple of months. There is one
set out there (hehehe, it's on my car) that was a prototype for fitment and,
well, it fits! So, they should be going into production shortly if they
haven't yet.
Damon
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Hyde" <
danielhyde@attbi.com>
Sent:
Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:39 PM
> I picked up the March issue of "Sport Compact Car" magazine this
> evening. On page 57 I noticed the advertisement about the Tein Flex
&
> EDFC setup indicating it is available for the 3000GT
90-98.
>
> I have an email queued up with 3SXPerformance to see what
that's all about
> that. An earlier reply indicated that the
Tein HA is he the only mod
> avail for the 30000GT!
> Can you find
out if this is true? - Is it possible to get my hands on
> this
setup for a 3000GT VR4?
------------------------------
> Interesting : Ferrari and Porsche Challenges (track racing of
similar
> cars) have them (cast). But AFAIK, the Porsche GT3 CS (Club
Sport) setup
> has not crossdrilled ones.
- ---
If your design is
beefy enough so that you can drop some mass with drilling, and still not
overheat/stress the rotors..DO IT.
Hence, sprint cars, bikes..have massively reduced weight in some of their
rotor designs to reduce weight.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:46:44 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Suspension : Tein HA Coilover and JIC Coilover
Well, aren't you the lucky one? :) Compared to the HA, is the
Flex system more on the street car or race car end of the spectrum?
- - Brian
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damon Rachell
[mailto:DamonR@mefas.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:41
AM
>
> Currently, the Flex system is not available publicly for
the
> 3000gt. It will become available within the next couple
of
> months. There is one set out there (hehehe, it's on my
car)
> that was a prototype for fitment and, well, it fits!
So,
> they should be going into production shortly if they haven't
>
yet.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:56:21 -0800
From: "Damon Rachell" <
DamonR@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Suspension : Tein HA Coilover and JIC Coilover
It's very similar to the JIC FLT-A2 set up. It's softer than the JICs
so I'd say it's more all out street with some track than all out track like the
FLT-A2s. In fact, it's a bit too soft for me. I've got the fronts
set to 6 and the rears set to 8. When I drove in a JIC car, they were very
drivable and enjoyable on the softest settings. about equivalent.
The Teins are too underdamped to drive on the softest setting. The car
pogos painfully.
These are the reasons why I'm swapping with a friend who's got the JICs.
I'd prefer the stiffness and high damping rate shocks over softer and more
compliant ride of the Teins.
Damon
92 r/t tt with TEIN flex, front/rear sway bars, and front/rear
strut bars.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Sent:
Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:46 AM
> Well, aren't you the lucky one? :) Compared to the HA, is
the
> Flex system more on the street car or race car end of the
>
spectrum?
------------------------------
Funny, the next email thread discusses the ignorance of the technical
expert in the same issue of Road and Track about the hazards of K&N
filterchargers.
I have been running crossdrilled rotors at the track for 6 seasons.
The set of Porterfield rotors I removed this week were covered with superficial
heat fractures that were removed by machining. They never warped. The
machinist said they were "straight as hell" during turning. The only brake
cooling improvements I made are to remove the dust shields and to replace the
front splash guard extensions with hardware cloth. Long ago I did cool
downs, but now I just park the car after a 20-25 minute session.
Once upon a time, rotors were solid. Then somebody got the bright idea to
vent them out the sides. Although crossdrilling was originally intended to
counteract gassing of pads, a problem that some say is licked, there are claims
that crossdrilled rotors operate at lower temperatures than solid faced
rotors. I don't know if this is verified anywhere, but it is certainly
listed in product claims in catalogues. It makes some sense if you consider that
air flowing out of the vent has to come from somewhere, and that an extra hole
in each rotor face for that vent would improve airflow.
The latest set of rotors that I ordered are solid faced, cryo
treated. Maybe I will finally try to measure their temperature when
I come out of a session.
BTW I am running Carbotech Panther Plus Pads and stock brake
calipers.
Chuck Willis
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
[mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:40
AM
> Interesting : Ferrari and Porsche Challenges (track racing of
similar
> cars) have them (cast). But AFAIK, the Porsche GT3 CS (Club
Sport) setup
> has not crossdrilled ones.
- ---
If your design is
beefy enough so that you can drop some mass with drilling, and still not
overheat/stress the rotors..DO IT.
Hence, sprint cars, bikes..have massively reduced weight in some of their
rotor designs to reduce weight.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 09:57:44 -0800
From: "Damon Rachell" <
DamonR@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
2nd gen calipers on 1st gen VR-4 with stock rims?
Not sure if this helps much, but I've got the Brembo F-40 kit on the front
of my 92 R/T TT with the stock wheels. I needed a 5mm spacer to make them
fit. They use the 2nd gen rotors, so there's no problems with the rotors
fitting the stock wheels. From what I've heard, 5mm spacers are all that
are needed.
Good luck.
Damon
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "John Monnin" <
John.Monnin@3si.zzn.com>
Sent:
Thursday, February 06, 2003 8:46 AM
> Will 2nd gen front brakes from a 95 VR4 clear my stock rims on my 91
> VR-4?
>
> When I was looking at Big Red calipers for my 91
VR4 I had 2 people
> email me that they were able to install big reds
with stock 1st gen
> wheels and rotors, one person used wheel spacers and
the other persons
> installed them w/o wheel spacers and they fit but
they did not drive
> the car.
>
> I am assuming the bigger
rotors and calipers would help on a road
> course. Has anyone done
this or is the improvement not worth the
> effort? The only reason
I am considering this is that I found some
> decent deals on 2nd gen
brakes rotors and calipers ($300-400) when
> people upgraded to bigger
brakes. I like my stock rims and I can't
> afford both brakes and
wheels this year.
------------------------------
Is this the Stillen Brembo F40 kit or one direct from Brembo? What
vintage?
My son has the Stillen kit on his '93 and it fits with 1st gen 17"
wheels. His version does NOT use 2nd gen rotors, although the rotors are
bigger than stock. I'll dig up the particular diameter from old
email. It's not the rotor clearance, it's the caliper clearance that keeps
you from using 2nd gen stock calipers and rotors with 1st gen 17" wheels.
I suspect the 1st gen 18" wheels would be okay.
Chuck Willis
- -----Original Message-----
From: Damon Rachell
[mailto:DamonR@mefas.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 11:58 AM
Not sure if this helps much, but I've got the Brembo F-40 kit on the front
of my 92 R/T TT with the stock wheels. I needed a 5mm spacer to make them
fit. They use the 2nd gen rotors, so there's no problems with the rotors
fitting the stock wheels. From what I've heard, 5mm spacers are all that
are needed.
------------------------------
They didn't say they were bad..just that SOME designs don't take well to
less restrictive or open element filters.
It all depends(tm)
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
> Funny, the next email thread discusses the ignorance of the technical
> expert in the same issue of Road and Track about the hazards of K&N
> filterchargers.
>
> I have been running crossdrilled
rotors at the track for 6 seasons.
> The set of Porterfield rotors
I removed this week were covered with
> superficial heat fractures that
were removed by machining. They never
> warped. The machinist said
they were "straight as hell" during
> turning. The only brake
cooling improvements I made are to remove the
> dust shields and to
replace the front splash guard extensions with
> hardware cloth.
Long ago I did cool downs, but now I just park the
> car after a 20-25
minute session.
>
> Once upon a time, rotors were solid. Then
somebody got the bright idea
> to vent them out the sides. Although
crossdrilling was originally
> intended to counteract gassing of pads, a
problem that some say is
> licked, there are claims that crossdrilled
rotors operate at lower
> temperatures than solid faced rotors. I
don't know if this is
> verified anywhere, but it is certainly listed in
product claims in
> catalogues. It makes some sense if you consider that
air flowing out
> of the vent has to come from somewhere, and that an
extra hole in each
> rotor face for that vent would improve
airflow.
>
> The latest set of rotors that I ordered are solid
faced, cryo treated.
> Maybe I will finally try to measure their
temperature when I come out
> of a session.
>
> BTW I
am running Carbotech Panther Plus Pads and stock brake calipers.
>
> Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:09:16 -0800
From: "Damon Rachell" <
DamonR@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
2nd gen calipers on 1st gen VR-4 with stock rims?
I bought them used so I've got no clue as to whether they're from Stillen
or Brembo. Damon
Is this the Stillen Brembo F40 kit or one direct from Brembo? What
vintage?
My son has the Stillen kit on his '93 and it fits with 1st gen 17" wheels.
His version does NOT use 2nd gen rotors, although the rotors are bigger than
stock. I'll dig up the particular diameter from old email. It's not
the rotor clearance, it's the caliper clearance that keeps you from using 2nd
gen stock calipers and rotors with 1st gen 17" wheels. I suspect the 1st
gen 18" wheels would be okay.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:16:13 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Suspension : Tein HA Coilover and JIC Coilover
I agree - the JICs have a very nice ride - as long as you're on excellent
or pretty good road. Once you get into road that's marginal in any way
though, look out! It's like a Jekyl-and-Hyde kind of transformation.
Ride quality goes out the window VERY quickly.
Have fun with the JICs - the handling on that suspension is a work of
art!
- - Brian
------------------------------
>I have been running crossdrilled rotors at the track for 6
seasons. The set of Porterfield rotors I removed this week were covered
with superficial heat fractures that were removed by machining. They never
warped. The machinist said they were "straight as hell" during
turning. The only brake cooling improvements I made are to remove the dust
shields and to replace the front splash guard extensions with hardware
cloth. Long ago I did cool downs, but now I just park the car after a
20-25 minute session.
Yeah, Chuck, but you know HOW to brake. That makes all the difference in
the world. It's the folks wot don't know how to brake wot has all the trouble.
They cook their fluid, fade their pads, and warp their rotors from all the heat
they generate by slamming on the brakes until the ABS chatters and making up for
lack of driving ability by outbraking everybody. Been there, done that A LOT!
When you learn how to brake properly, all those problems go away. Funny how that
works.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
At 12:34 PM 2/6/03 -0600, Geoff Mohler wrote:
>You
forgot:
>He's not going fast enough. :)
Somebody else said that, long ago. Not me.
The only way I could stay with Chuck was to outbrake him, at the cost of
pads, fluids and rotors. That was two years ago. Now he's got two more years of
experience as an instructor. I don't think outbraking will do it any more.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:40:15 -0800
From: "Grd4Spd Racing" <
grd4spdracing@cox.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Crossdrilled Rotors
> Yeah, Chuck, but you know HOW to brake. That makes all the
>
difference in the world. It's the folks wot don't know how to
> brake wot
has all the trouble. They cook their fluid, fade their
> pads, and warp
their rotors from all the heat they generate by
> slamming on the brakes
until the ABS chatters and making up for
> lack of driving ability by
outbraking everybody. Been there, done
> that A LOT! When you learn how to
brake properly, all those
> problems go away. Funny how that works.
I've been listening for a while (good list folks) and i have to say you
are
spot on with this.
for years i have contended the same to guys who run around looking to
spend
$3000 on big brake kits. sometimes the key is to learn how to
drive/brake
(example: racing school) before spending gobs of money on a mod
that may not
be necessary. just think how much one could learn (and how fast
one could
go) if they spent $3K on a good race school.
less brake = go faster.
regards,
terry
------------------------------
Terry says:
>I've been listening for a while (good list folks) and i
have to say you are
>spot on with this.
You mean I was right about something?
That's a first!
>just think how much one could learn (and how fast one could
> go)
if they spent $3K on a good race school.
>less brake = go faster.
I don't pretend to think I am any kind of braking expert, but I am lots
better than I was. With instruction, you reach an epiphany, where you learn to
carry much higher speed through a corner. This means you don't slow down nearly
as much, so you use less brakes. Maybe Chuck can explain it all to us at St
Louis this summer at the gathering. I'd sure like to find out how he can run 1st
gen brakes and keep the same set of pads on there for 3 or 4 events.
Rich/slow old poop >
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:26:25 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Crossdrilled Rotors
Have the experts already felt a difference in braking in
between
crossdrilled or plain rotors, cryo or not cryo treated ?? Can we come
to a
consensus or are there too many other variables ?
------------------------------
I noticed a difference in the RX7TT.
Initially, CD "felt" better (but it may have been a SOTP thing)..but
in
the end, the CD rotors wouldn't take as many fast laps without coming
off
the track feeling weaker.
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Roger Gerl wrote:
> Guys, let's go back to the topic ... (no chatting style
please)
>
> Have the experts already felt a difference in braking
in between
> crossdrilled or plain rotors, cryo or not cryo treated ?? Can
we come to a
> consensus or are there too many other variables ?
>
> Roger G.
> 93' & 96'3000GT TT
>
www.rtec.ch
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:27:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Crossdrilled Rotors (fwd)
(edit the -e to a plain e, gets around some tech filters this way)
There..its in the archives.
------------------------------
At 08:26 PM 2/6/03 +0100, Roger Gerl wrote:
>Have the experts already
felt a difference in braking in between
>crossdrilled or plain rotors,
cryo or not cryo treated ?? Can we come to a
>consensus or are there too
many other variables ?
I take a set of stock rotors to my friendly neighborhood cryogenic
treatment shop, where for $20 each they apply the treatment. This works as well
as any of the fancy slotted or crossdrilled rotors on the market.
My braking technique has improved greatly over the past 2 years, but I am
not experienced enough to tell the difference among rotors.
However, I have seen so much evidence that slotted rotors BREAK that I
would never put one on my car again (I broke two of them myself). I have also
seen plenty of cracked crossdrilled rotors, so I would never put one of those on
my car either.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Where have you seen slotted rotors break..where it was because of
the
slotting?
First I've ever heard of that.
> I take a set of stock rotors to my friendly neighborhood cryogenic
treatment shop, where for $20 each they apply the treatment. This works as well
as any of the fancy slotted or crossdrilled rotors on the market.
>
> My braking technique has improved greatly over the past 2 years, but I
am not experienced enough to tell the difference among rotors.
>
>
However, I have seen so much evidence that slotted rotors BREAK that I would
never put one on my car again (I broke two of them myself). I have also seen
plenty of cracked crossdrilled rotors, so I would never put one of those on my
car either.
>
> Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:44:49 -0800
From: "Damon Rachell" <
DamonR@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Crossdrilled Rotors
I had Porterfield slotted rotors on my car when I was on stock 1st
gen
brakes and had fewer warping problems than I did when I went to the
Brembos
(OEM 2nd gen rotors). granted, i did have greater fade
problems, though.
Cracked both rear cross drilled rotors at SP in October. Radial
cracks
throughout both sides. I'll never do cross drilled again,
regardless.
Damon
> Where have you seen slotted rotors break..where it was because of
the
> slotting?
>
> First I've ever heard of that.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:49:28 -0600
From: "Morice, Francis" <
francis.morice@retek.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Crossdrilled Rotors
Have Porterfield cryo/crossdrilled rotors with R4S pads. Used at a
2-day track event, very little fade, no cracking and it's going on 3 years now
with the same pads and rotors.
Francis
'96 RT/TT
- -----Original Message-----
From: Damon Rachell
[mailto:DamonR@mefas.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:45 PM
>Cracked both rear cross drilled rotors at SP in October. Radial
cracks
>throughout both sides. I'll never do cross drilled again,
regardless.
------------------------------
At 01:35 PM 2/6/03 -0600, you wrote:
>Where have you seen slotted
rotors break..where it was because of the
>slotting?
>First I've
ever heard of that.
I broke two PowerSlot slotted rotors. Both at Heartland Park. Different
days, different corners, but both times I broke the right front rotor in half at
the hat. Sumbitches came apart in two pieces -- hat and rotor-- and both times I
lost my brakes completely. PowerSlot replaced the first one, then refunded my
money when I broke the second one a month or so later.
Oskar used to have a photo of a Stillen slotted rotor that he broke at 100+
mph up at Brainerd. His was a carbon copy of what happened to me, and there was
some speculation at the time (three years ago, right Oskar?) that Stillen and
PowerSlot bought their shitty rotors from the same supplier. Brembos, they
weren't.
Further research on the Opentrack list two years ago revealed similar
problems with slotted rotors on Mustangs and Camaros.
It was enough for me to swear off slotted rotors forever, no matter where
they came from.
You cannot imagine the feeling when you hear CLANG! when braking at 110+
mph coming into a 90 right, and the brakes go away. At Heartland Park, I had a
half-mile runout when it happened because of the course configuration. Whew! No
more slotted rotors for me.
Rich/slow old poop>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:33:25 -0800
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: Team3S:
How hard is it to change Synchros?
I got my 92 VR4 tranny sitting on the floor of Paul's garage while my
engine
is being rebuilt and I am thinking to
myself, "man its not all that
bad, but the 2nd gear is a bit notchy" So what
does it take? How much does it
cost?
Tyson
------------------------------
Care to tell the rest of the story why your rotors flew apart?
I don't recall it being the rotor's fault.
> I broke two PowerSlot slotted rotors. Both at Heartland Park.
Different days, different corners, but both times I broke the right front rotor
in half at the hat. Sumbitches came apart in two pieces -- hat and rotor-- and
both times I lost my brakes completely. PowerSlot replaced the first one, then
refunded my money when I broke the second one a month or so later.
>
> Oskar used to have a photo of a Stillen slotted rotor that he broke at
100+ mph up at Brainerd. His was a carbon copy of what happened to me, and there
was some speculation at the time (three years ago, right Oskar?) that Stillen
and PowerSlot bought their shitty rotors from the same supplier. Brembos, they
weren't.
>
> Further research on the Opentrack list two years ago
revealed similar problems with slotted rotors on Mustangs and Camaros.
>
> It was enough for me to swear off slotted rotors forever, no matter
where they came from.
>
> You cannot imagine the feeling when you
hear CLANG! when braking at 110+ mph coming into a 90 right, and the brakes go
away. At Heartland Park, I had a half-mile runout when it happened because of
the course configuration. Whew! No more slotted rotors for me.
------------------------------
Sorry, Roger, I got carried away. I think the consensus is that there
are too many variables. Even with a consistent driver, each session has a
variable amount of braking and variable times on account of traffic. Even
if the cooldown time was the same, post-session measurements of rotor
temperature are gonna be at best an inaccurate (underestimate) representation of
operating temperatures.
Everyone I know works to find a mix of rotor and pads that suits his
braking/driving style. To quote Geoff on K&N, "it all depends".
Chuck Willis
- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Gerl
[mailto:roger.gerl@bluewin.ch]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:26
PM
Have the experts already felt a difference in braking in
between
crossdrilled or plain rotors, cryo or not cryo treated ?? Can we come
to a
consensus or are there too many other variables ?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:15:17 -0800
From: "Damon Rachell" <
DamonR@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Crossdrilled Rotors
Rich,
Didn't you have a water spritzer spraying on the rotors? I
plan on
installing 100psi high pressure sprayers (atomizing the h2o rather
than
droplets) on the intercoolers as well as in the brake ducting, but
wanted to
know whether this might lead to the problems with broken
rotors. Don't some
of the le mans race cars use water cooling on
brakes?
Damon
> Care to tell the rest of the story why your rotors flew
apart?
>
> I don't recall it being the rotor's fault.
------------------------------
No..he ran them WAY thin..I mean.._thin_. Far below discard
thickness.
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Damon Rachell wrote:
> Rich,
> Didn't you have a water spritzer spraying on the
rotors? I plan on
> installing 100psi high pressure sprayers
(atomizing the h2o rather than
> droplets) on the intercoolers as well as
in the brake ducting, but wanted to
> know whether this might lead to the
problems with broken rotors. Don't some
> of the le mans race cars
use water cooling on brakes?
------------------------------
Geoff says:
>Care to tell the rest of the story why your rotors flew
apart?
>I don't recall it being the rotor's fault.
I knew that would come up. Can't sneak anything past Geoff.
Two responses:
1. You are undoubtedly referring to last year's adventure at Blackhawk
Farms, where I broke a THIRD rotor. I gotta be the only racer in the world
who has broken THREE rotors and lived to tell about it.
However, that was NOT a slotted rotor.
You are correct that it was not the rotor's fault. I explained this in
excruciating detail, with pictures:
It broke because I wore a Porterfield cryogenically treated rotor way down,
far beyond discard depth, and it cracked.
This has nothing to do with slotted rotors breaking - mine or Oskar's --
because wear was not involved. In fact, when I broke the second PowerSlot, it
was a BRAND NEW REPLACEMENT ROTOR, with no wear on it.
2. Perhaps you are intimating that my infamous water cooling system is to
blame. Sorry, I didn't have water cooling on the slotted rotors 3 years ago, so
it could not have contributed. I DID have water cooling at Blackhawk, but I
still don't think it affected the situation (you and I differ greatly on this, I
know). Water injection to the brakes is a totally different discussion, and does
not apply here. Besides, Oskar didn't have water cooling when he broke his
Stillen slotted rotor the same way.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
At 01:15 PM 2/6/03 -0800, Damon Rachell wrote:
>Didn't you have a water spritzer spraying on the rotors? I plan
on
>installing 100psi high pressure sprayers <snip> >know whether
this might lead to the problems with broken rotors. Don't some of the le
mans race cars use water cooling on brakes?
Yes, I do have water injection. Not a spritzer, though. I don't think it
contributes to rotor problems, but Geoff disagrees.
Are you sure we want to get into this here? This is a topic for 3SRacers.
The folks over here probably don't want to hear about brake water
injectors.
Rich
------------------------------
I only disagree on the application of water DIRECTLY on the rotor
as
opposed to an airstream that was cooled by a high pressure fine mist
of
water.
Others have commented on cracking..I don't think it'd crack a rotor,
but
more likely flash to steam and insulate the surface..whereas a cool
damp
stream of air would more effectively cool the rotor inside AND
out.
> At 01:15 PM 2/6/03 -0800, Damon Rachell wrote:
>
>
>Didn't you have a water spritzer spraying on the rotors? I plan
on
> >installing 100psi high pressure sprayers <snip>
>know
whether this might lead to the problems with broken rotors. Don't some of
the Le Mans race cars use water cooling on brakes?
>
> Yes, I do
have water injection. Not a spritzer, though. I don't think it contributes to
rotor problems, but Geoff disagrees.
>
> Are you sure we want to
get into this here? This is a topic for 3SRacers. The folks over here probably
don't want to hear about brake water injectors.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:53:46 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Water Injection WAS: Crossdrilled Rotors
Damon wrote:
> I plan on installing 100psi high pressure
sprayers
> (atomizing the h2o rather than droplets) on the
>
intercoolers as well as in the brake ducting,
Damon, are you using a home-made WI system or something you bought off
the
shelf? I'm thinking of using something along the lines
of this:
With a 0.7mm nozzle and 7 bars of pressure, I was able to create a haze
that
would fill an area the size of my car in about 7-10 seconds. I
could see
some particles, but it mostly looked like fog - it floated around
my garage
like fog or smoke... pretty cool.
I just finished my Water/Alky injection system for the engine, so now
it's
time to complete the water-related stuff and do the brakes and ICs,
too.
Water is so useful, and there's so much of it lying around not
doing
something productive :-)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:09:18 -0700
From: Dave <
monarchd@refuge.Colorado.EDU>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: 2nd gen calipers on 1st gen VR-4 with stock rims?
I think you've probably had several responses with a resounding no,
but
in case you want to see pictures of the problem:
this is only regarding stock 2nd gen calipers and 1st gen 17" wheels.
- --------
+> Will 2nd gen front brakes from a 95 VR4 clear my stock rims on my 91
+> VR-4?
+>
+> When I was looking at Big Red calipers
for my 91 VR4 I had 2 people
+> email me that they were able to install
big reds with stock 1st gen
+> wheels and rotors, one person used wheel
spacers and the other
+> persons installed them w/o wheel spacers and
they fit but they did not
+> drive the car.
+>
+> I am
assuming the bigger rotors and calipers would help on a road
+>
course. Has anyone done this or is the improvement not worth the
+>
effort? The only reason I am considering this is that I found some
+> decent deals on 2nd gen brakes rotors and calipers ($300-400) when
+> people upgraded to bigger brakes. I like my stock rims and I
can't
+> afford both brakes and wheels this year.
+>
+> John
Monnin
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:14:10 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: 2nd gen calipers on 1st gen VR-4 with stock rims?
I have a really dumb question couldn't we just have the inside of the
wheels
machined where they contact the calipers and call it done? Any
competent
wheel repair shop would be able to do this?
>From those photos it seems like the wheel was just thickened in that
area to
increase strength.
Thoughts???????
Russ F
CT
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:22:29 -0700
From: Dave <
monarchd@refuge.Colorado.EDU>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: 2nd gen calipers on 1st gen VR-4 with stock rims?
I haven't seen the wheel without a tire on it, but I'm pretty sure
it's
not "thicker" there. the "steps" you see are there on the
other side
(inside) as well. In other words, the thickness is the
same front to
rear, just "stepped". Keep in mind that this is with
a 15mm H&R
spacer as well.
+> I have a really dumb question couldn't we just have the inside of the
wheels
+> machined where they contact the calipers and call it done?
Any competent
+> wheel repair shop would be able to do this?
+>
+> >From those photos it seems like the wheel was just
thickened in that area t
o
+> increase strength.
+>
+>
Thoughts???????
+>
+> Russ F
+> CT
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#74
**************************************