Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, January 22 2003 Volume
02 : Number 060
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:40:07 -0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Survey Time - Getrag failures
I would agree even 10% failure rate seems very high.
I have seen
subdued innuendos in some car reviews that kind of imply Getrag is a good thing,
but not sure why. I only found some derogatory comments about BMW motorcycle
Getrags in a quick web search.
Wonder if anyone has seen other AWD transmission evidence good or bad?
Audi, Jaguar, ??
Kurt
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Ninneman
[mailto:dninneman@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 10:52 AM
20% .......... you say 20%? You make it sound as if even that's
acceptable. That is not for a car costing what it did and what
class
it was in. Hell, you have Detroit Iron pony cars with as much
HP,
costing half as much with trans that last routinely the life of the
car.
Granted, its primarily the synchros and that tends to be the weakest
link in most trans .......... however, the failure rate of ours is way
beyond the norm.
Dennis -==- Philly
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:42:26 -0500
From: Mike Chapleski <
chaplesk@bellsouth.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Operation of Aeromotive FPR
I replaced all my fuel lines from the firewall on with Earl's AN-8. I
replaced the stock FPR with an Aeromotive A1000. This fuel pressure
regulator has an input for boost (used the same line as the original
FPR). My understanding of how it operates is, as the boost increases
the FPR increases pressure to match the increased pressure in the
manifold. I also have a fuel pressure gauge mounted in my center
console. The fuel pressure is set to 43 psi at idle. So here is
the
problem. As soon as the boost goes above 0 psi the fuel pressure
immediately jumps to 62 psi and stays there as long as boost is above 0
psi. Does anyone else with an aftermarket FPR and a fuel pressure
gauge
experience a similar issue?
Thanks,
Mike Chapleski
'95 Stealth RT TT
Miami, FL
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:26:36 -0800
From: "Ann Koch" <
akoch@sonic.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Survey time
If the average replacement mileage was 71K (or thereabouts) for cars with
bad transmissions, at what point will the re-built transmission give out?
142K? Is there any feedback on 2nd replacements or is the re-built
transmission more durable than the original one?
Ann
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:45:40 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Survey time
Personally, Ann, my second tranny will last 200+k miles. This is
because I am *very* ginger in shifting into second since that is what broke my
first one. First, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and reverse were all
fine. It was the power speed shift into second gear on a rainy night with,
most likely, all four wheels spinning that did in my 2nd gear synchro.
I've not made the same mistake since and it has been 50k miles since then (it
was replaced at 58k). I plan to have mine last well past 158k though so I
would expect second transmissions to last longer than the average of the first
time replacement. Some people have had their second one fail at 200 miles
or 7,000 miles since it was not done correctly or something else messed up but
many people with replaced trannies under 70k miles have been going strong on
their current one for 50k miles or more with no signs of trouble in the next 5k
or 10k but that is just an assumption for now.
This could be because the driver is more aware of what damages them. For
me, the first tranny was under warranty and more or less "free" but there is no
warranty on my car now so I am more cautious about things like this happening
and will do anything to prevent it. Even if it means starting in second
for the rest of my life, wearing out the clutch in 60k miles instead of 120k
miles but a clutch is MUCH cheaper to replace than a tranny.
After this initial survey we will go back through and ask all the people
with failed trannies to respond to how many miles on the replacement before
trouble occurred. Not now though but next time. Give this another
week or so first.
- --Flash!
------------------------------
My replacement tranny started leaking immediately, but the synchros are OK
so far. 'Course, there's only 15,000 on the replacement.
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:29:53 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Survey time
There are only a few aftermarket variations on the stock transmissions and
with the exception of a hardened output shaft there is little reason to believe
that any improvements were incorporated. Kormex developed a replacement synchro
ring but the design was based on the original design. Kormex rebuilt units using
good used parts and new aftermarket bearings because until recently there were
no new parts available even to the dealers. The units provided by Mitsu were
new/rebuilt from Getrag using new parts that were undoubtedly the same as the
old design. Only in the last year have parts been available to us for
rebuilds --- I think the dealers still treat the unit as non-rebuildable
even though they too have access to parts.
Jim Berry
=====================================================
> If the average replacement mileage was 71K (or thereabouts) for cars
> with bad transmissions, at what point will the re-built transmission
> give out? 142K? Is there any feedback on 2nd replacements or is
the
> re-built transmission more durable than the original one?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:58:24 -0600
From: "Dan Hyde" <
danielhyde@attbi.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Defi Gauges
I've have been searching in vane for a retailer that sells these to
determine the cost of the little gems and the Defi Link system. Anyone
care to point me to a link? I'm intrigued by the logging
functionality.
Dan
97 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:26:42 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Knocking noise
My timing jumped an exhaust cam 2-3 notches and compression is still
perfect. If I'm reading your description correctly it sounds like you jumped an
intake cam. I'm not sure if the intake cam timing is different. e.g. You may
have less "leeway" before valves interfere on the intake side. Can anyone else
comment on this?
Also, when you say "running terribly" ... what do you mean? Please
elaborate. Was idle hunting, funny exhaust note, popping sounds? It could always
be a lifter tick that coincidentally began (which would be no immediate
concern). Please give more details and we'll take it from there.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
- -----Original Message-----
From: Shawn Keren
Sent: Monday, January
20, 2003 10:19 PM
OK, I have the valve cover off once again and by moving the crank by hand I
can see all of the valves go up and down without any sticking. Guess I'll try to
get a scope tomorrow and look inside the cylinders.
------------------------------
Here's a couple of places that carry them.
Francis
'96 RT/TT
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dan Hyde
[mailto:danielhyde@attbi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:58
AM
I've have been searching in vane for a retailer that sells these to
determine the cost of the little gems and the Defi Link system. Anyone
care to point me to a link? I'm intrigued by the logging
functionality.
Dan
97 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:26:58 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Defi Gauges
Dan I have a link from the following place that sells them, they are a
Supra oriented vendor but seem to be the only ones to really have jumped on the
Daisy chain Idea.
mvpmotorsports.com then click on the link at the right for our cars and
then go to gauges about 1/4 of the way down.
Russ F
CT
------------------------------
You got it wrong, dude. The fuel pressure should be 43 psi above the
manifold pressure (not above the atmospheric pressure). At idle you have a
vacuum in the manifold. It is about -10 psi. So your fuel pressure gauge should
show 33 psi at idle. If you disconnect the manifold pressure line that goes to
the FPR, you should be reading a fuel pressure of 43 psi. Adjust your FPR
accordingly and reconnect the line.
You are seeing the maximum of 62 psi because this is when your fuel pump
relief valve pops up. There is a little checkball valve on top of the pump. You
can't have a fuel pressure higher than that. Also, a note to all the boost
junkies out there. If the maximum fuel pressure that you see is 62 psi, then you
can't run your boost past 19 psi even if you have a Supra, HKS or any other
pump. You fuel system should be capable of supplying all the required fuel at
(43 psi + boost) psi.
Philip
- ------------------------------------------------
I replaced all my fuel lines from the firewall on with Earl's AN-8. I
replaced the stock FPR with an Aeromotive A1000. This fuel pressure
regulator has an input for boost (used the same line as the original FPR).
My understanding of how it operates is, as the boost increases the FPR increases
pressure to match the increased pressure in the manifold. I also have a
fuel pressure gauge mounted in my center console. The fuel pressure is set
to 43 psi at idle. So here is the problem. As soon as the boost goes
above 0 psi the fuel pressure immediately jumps to 62 psi and stays there as
long as boost is above 0 psi. Does anyone else with an aftermarket FPR and
a fuel pressure gauge experience a similar issue?
Thanks,
Mike Chapleski
'95 Stealth RT TT
Miami, FL
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:43:17 -0600
From: Jon Paine <
ppainej@attglobal.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Survey time
I have a friend who runs the parts dept at the local Mitsu dealership
(handy!). I was ordering shop manuals and wanted to also order the
engine and trans rebuild manuals. He talked me out of the trans manual
'cause their coverage of service for our trans is 2 pages: 'Replace it'.
Their shop library doesn't even have anything about the innards of the
beastie. They'd have no idea what to do with the trans even if they knew
parts were available for it (which they don't).
BTW, I didn't know parts were available, either! Another nugget of
info.
Jon
fastmax wrote:
> There are only a few aftermarket variations on the
stock transmissions
> and with the exception of a hardened output shaft
there is little
> reason to believe that any improvements were
incorporated. Kormex
> developed a replacement synchro ring but the
design was based on the
> original design. Kormex rebuilt units using
good used parts and new
> aftermarket bearings because until recently
there were no new parts
> available even to the dealers. The units
provided by Mitsu were
> new/rebuilt from Getrag using new parts that
were undoubtedly the same
> as the old design. Only in the last year have
parts been available to
> us for rebuilds --- I think the dealers
still treat the unit as
> non-rebuildable even though they too have
access to parts.
>
> Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:12:39 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Operation of Aeromotive FPR
Philip, can you please tell us the source of the 62 psi limitation ? With
this you basically say that 19 psi is the max we can run our cars on, right
? Is this fuel pump relief valve valid for ALL pumps ?
You are seeing the maximum of 62 psi because this is when your fuel
pump
>relief valve pops up. There is a little checkball valve on top of
the
>pump. You can't have a fuel pressure higher than that. Also, a note
to
>all the boost junkies out there. If the maximum fuel pressure that
you
>see is 62 psi, then you can't run your boost past 19 psi even if you
>have a Supra, HKS or any other pump. You fuel system should be capable
>of supplying all the required fuel at (43 psi + boost)
psi.
>
>Philip
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:32:11 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Operation of Aeromotive FPR
Roger, all fuel pumps have a check valve built into them (to prevent a back
flow of fuel when the pump shuts off) if the line pressure happens to exceed the
pumps flow capability then the line pressure will hit a "ceiling". In this
case it happened to be 62 psi, now I am not sure which pump it is or what the
line voltage was at the time 62 psi was hit. Both of those items become
limiting actors for the pumps flow abilities.
This is one of the reasons I am using a Paxton kamikaze pump and will be
feeding it 10 volts at idle - 3500 RPMS (no need to aerate or heat the fuel when
the fueling demands aren't that high) and then 13-14 at 4000K or better.
Aeromotive makes a very nice piggy back fuel controller that will help with
that. :)
Also has anyone ever looked into using a fuel cooler (the kind you place
ice water into and the fuel flows trough metal lines that the ice water cools)
to help stave off knock? I am looking into this but currently haven't
found one that accommodates -10 AN or even -8AN fittings.............
Russ F
CT
93 VR-4 "yep I want to support 2.10KG of boost "
- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Gerl
[mailto:roger.gerl@bluewin.ch]
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:13
AM
Philip, can you please tell us the source of the 62 psi limitation ? With
this you basically say that 19 psi is the max we can run our cars on, right
? Is this fuel pump relief valve valid for ALL pumps ?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:00:48 -0500
From: Steve Burrows <
steve@3SXPerformance.com>
Subject:
Team3S: 3SX Has Moved and Featuring NA Sway Bars
Hello,
Just wanted to let everyone know that we have finally moved into
our new
building and are excited about getting set up. We have 2 bays
now, a
showroom, office, inventory and shipping room, and even an inside
bathroom
LOL! We have new directions and a few new pictures on our
Facilities page
on our site. Once we get everything cleaned up and the
dust settles, Eric
will get better pictures posted.
We also got a fresh supply of Addco non-turbo sway bars in stock and they
are this month's special. The rear bar has an updated and VERY beefy
bracket that comes with it and includes bolts and brackets, so no more
re-using your stock bolts or tracking down longer ones. We also have a
new
install guide to help you install it on our site.
As a bonus, for 3SX customers who previously got an Addco bar from us, if
you want to get the new brackets, we'll ship you a set for $10 (to cover
the shipping) or if you are placing an order, we'll include them for
free.
Thanks,
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:12:47 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Defi Gauges
- --Erik
> I've have been searching in vane for a retailer that sells these to
> determine the cost of the little gems and the Defi Link system.
> Anyone care to point me to a link?
------------------------------
A little confusion about terminology here. It's not a check valve. I
shoulda said it's a ball-type pressure relief valve. It is a little thingie on
top of any 3S fuel pump or any drop-in replacement pump. It is a little boss
with a hole in it, a tiny spring, and a tiny shiny ball inside.
http://www.stealth316.com/images/fuelpumpdiagram.gif
I tested this pressure relief valve once. I think it is set at about 70 psi
but after the fuel travels through all the lines and the fuel filter I can see
how the pressure could drop to 62 psi.
You technically can run more than 19 psi boost with a Supra pump or
equivalent. It is just you won't have the same 43 psi pressure deferential
across your injectors, so you will flow less fuel than you normally would. Those
people who run more than 19 psi with a Supra pump or with dual Stock/HKS/Supra
pumps, and do not blow up their engines, compensate for the lower pressure
differential with an increased injector duty cycle. This is not the right way of
doing it since their rising rate pressure regulator becomes purposeless and they
now control their fuel pressure with a 2c ball-type valve in the gas tank on top
of the fuel pump(s).
Philip
- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Gerl
[mailto:roger.gerl@bluewin.ch]
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:13
AM
Philip, can you please tell us the source of the 62 psi limitation ? With
this you basically say that 19 psi is the max we can run our cars on, right? Is
this fuel pump relief valve valid for ALL pumps ?
Roger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:19:21 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Operation of Aeromotive FPR
The pressure relief valve is set different for different fuel pumps.
Readers
can look at my fuel pump upgrade guide and the RC Engineering tests
there to
see what the relief valve is set at (for the particular pumps
tested).
70 psi Stock TT/VR4 pump
90 psi Mazda Cosmo/"HKS" pump
95 psi Supra
Turbo MK IV and 300ZX/Skyline pumps
100+ psi Walbro 341
So, given even a 10 psi drop between pump and injectors (I seriously doubt
it
would be even close to that), the Supra pump can support 85 psi at the
injectors (assuming they are 450 cc/min injectors) - good for 40+ psi of
boost
if differential pressure is set near 43 psi. :) At 25 psi boost - or
about 68
psi line pressure at the injectors, the Supra pump can support 550
cc/min
injectors at ~12 volts, or 650 cc/min injectors at ~13.5 volts.
Support here
means 100% IDC. From what I have read, 15 volts is perhaps the
max that should
be applied to our Denso pumps.
What should be more of a concern to owners than the pressure relief valve
is
the voltage to the fuel pump during WOT. Measure the voltage (and the
pressure) and you will know.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:37:34 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Operation of Aeromotive FPR
>> As soon as the boost goes above 0 psi the fuel pressure
immediately
>> jumps to 62 psi and stays there as long as boost is
above 0 psi.
The Aeromotive web site
Does not say explicitly that the A1000 will match boost pressure. They do
say
this for their A1000-6:
"Fuel pressure will rise on a 1:1 ratio when referencing boost."
However, I would have guessed that the only difference was the -10 AN
fittings
on the A1000 instead of the -6 AN fittings on the A1000-6. But
maybe not. I am
planning to use the A1000-6 to replace the factory FPR on my
car, so I am
interested also in the experiences of owners that are using
these Aeromotive
FPRs.
Thanks,
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:42:55 -0800
From: "Tyson Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: Team3S: O2
sensors in the downpipe
Hi all. Looking for some input from people whom know this on their cars.
How many O2 ports do various years of our car have in the downpipe? I know first
Gens have none. I have a CA model too and I don't have any. I know 94+ there is
a bung in the front section of the pipe. Is there another year that has a 2nd
sensor in the downpipe? Someone told me that a 97 has 2 holes, one in the front
one in the back.
I'm talking about TT models here only, not sure if NA are different.
Thanks,
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:45:20 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Operation of Aeromotive FPR
I think the inlet size is the only difference on these units as well.
Since it has a vacuum/boost inlet port, I think a 1:1 rise is taken for granted
unless otherwise stated.
I'm using the A1000 (-10 AN inlet fittings) on my VR-4. In each of
the -10 AN inlet ports, I have a -10/-6 adapter...but I don't think that makes
much of a difference. The Aeromotive A1000 seems to adjust for vacuum
perfectly. My A/F ratios under boost are very predictable, which makes me
believe that fuel pressure does rise 1:1 with boost.
- - Brian
> However, I would have guessed that the only difference was
> the
-10 AN fittings on the A1000 instead of the -6 AN
> fittings on the
A1000-6. But maybe not. I am planning to
> use the A1000-6 to
replace the factory FPR on my car, so
> I am interested also in the
experiences of owners that are
> using these Aeromotive FPRs.
------------------------------
I am not sure which pump Mike Chapleski has. He did not say he upgraded
the
pump yet.
So, I guess, if the Supra pump's pressure relief valve is set at 95
psi,
then everybody do ahead and use Supra pumps safely. I tested my stock
and
Supra pumps and discovered the 70 psi max pressure limit. I thought it
was
on the Supra pump but I could have been wrong. Anyway, I have a
fuel
pressure gauge just to be certain.
Philip
- ----------------------------------------------------
The pressure relief valve is set different for different
fuel
pumps. Readers can look at my fuel pump upgrade guide
and the RC
Engineering tests there to see what the relief
valve is set at (for the
particular pumps tested).
70 psi Stock TT/VR4 pump
90 psi Mazda Cosmo/"HKS" pump
95 psi Supra
Turbo MK IV and 300ZX/Skyline pumps
100+ psi Walbro 341
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:55:41 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: Survey Time - Getrag failures
We have an almost ZERO tranny failure in Europe !
This is because we don't race and we don't have lots of 1/4 mile tracks.
On
mine the output shaft was grinded down what I call a failure of
course.
Mitsu exchanged it for free and also swapped the tranny right away
due to
the metallic particles allover the thing. I think this is customer
service
.. as well as the two days I got that huge Mercedes 600S ;-)
On my new 96'3000GT I feel that hard shifting into 2nd when it is cold.
Of
course, a good tranny oil may help here a lot. I'm only familiar with the
5
speed so I hope a good tranny oil may help.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Zobel, Kurt" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Sent: Wednesday,
January 22, 2003 2:40 AM
> I would agree even 10% failure rate seems very high.
> I have
seen subdued innuendos in some car reviews that kind of imply
> Getrag is
a good thing, but not sure why. I only found some derogatory
> comments
about BMW motorcycle Getrags in a quick web search.
>
> Wonder if
anyone has seen other AWD transmission evidence good or bad?
> Audi,
Jaguar, ??
>
> Kurt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:21:59 EST
From:
Klusmanp@aol.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
Survey time
'91 VR4. Second owner had tranny replaced under warranty at about 50K miles
due to hard shifting (bad synchros). I am third owner. I purchased the car
at
76K miles and have no synchro problems now at 99K miles. I (and previous
owner) shift very gently on this new tranny and I've done no racing with the
car.
I've had slight problems with leaking x-fer case. Just had seals replaced
for
the second time in 3 years. This was done just before the recall.
I also had driveshaft replaced due to worn carrier bearing rubber bushings
and u-joints.
Paul Klusman
'91 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:42:58 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. Kryjevski" <
abk4@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: anti sway bar or strut bar
Hello:
I am trying to improve cornering ability of my 1992 Stealth R/T.
Tires
have enough tread left, rear camber -0.5, front close to 0.
I am considering adding a rear strut bar (thinking of Cusco)
OR
replacing the stock rear anti sway bar with a bigger
one (thinking of
3SX/Addco). Which of the two things above would
be better for that
purpose?
Thank you.
Andrei Kryjevski.
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#60
**************************************
