Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Monday, January 20
2003 Volume 02 : Number 058
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:52:16 -0500
From: Dennis Ninneman <
dninneman@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: Survey Time - Reality Check
>>Do the math, dammit! Include the other folks on other
lists...
>>Maybe 2000 owners, total? Maybe 50% with turbos?
So let's call
>>it 1000 3S/Getrag owners >whom we can reach.
Now..., I
>>*challenge* you to find even 200 of them who have
had
>>transmission failures. Which would be 20%.
20% .......... you say 20%? You make it sound as if even that's
acceptable. That is not for a car costing what it did and what
class
it was in. Hell, you have Detroit Iron pony cars with as much
HP,
costing half as much with trans that last routinely the life of the car.
Granted, its primarily the synchros and that tends to be the weakest
link in most trans .......... however, the failure rate of ours is way
beyond the norm.
Dennis -==- Philly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:55:58 -0500
From: Dennis Ninneman <
dninneman@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: survey time
Ryan Coffren wrote:
> '93 VR-4, 120K+
> The only problem I have is my 5th gear synchro
is gone.
>
> Previous owner put a lot of highway miles on it, but
it's the Boston
> suburb area, so there is plenty of stop-and-go traffic
to put the
> tranny through it's paces.
You make it sound as if that is acceptable. How long has the 5th gear
synchro been out. If it just happened ........ then maybe its
reasonable. I know with my 93, I drove it from 65k till 105k before
getting it fixed.
Dennis -==- Philly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:03:34 -0500
From: Dennis Ninneman <
dninneman@comcast.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Bad trannies. When did Mitsu know?
>Here's the REALLY weird part...when I was buying my car four years ago,
>I called my friendly local Mitsu dealer for advice on what to look for
in a used car (I didn't know about this list at the time). The service
manager warned me to check for bad synchros in the
tranny!!
>
>The GM dealer I bought it from was closely affiliated
with the
>neighboring Mitsu dealer in St. Louis, and they fairly INSISTED
(well,
>really strongly encouraged) that I buy a warranty, and sold me
one at
>cost ($1,700 for a 3-year, 100,000 mile bumper to bumper). They
also
>did a timing belt and a new clutch before selling me the car. I
think
>they KNEW that the tranny was going when they sold it to me, which
is
>why they insisted on the warranty.
>
>So I bought mine
with the warranty and, sure 'nuf, the tranny went out
>at 65,000 miles.
No complaints here, because covered repairs paid for
>that warranty three
times over.
>
>Don't tell me Mitsu didn't know about this problem a
long, long time
>ago. It is a weakness in our tranny, and folks who don't
have problems
>are just flat lucky. They got one of the few good
ones.
>
>It's like the old joke about hard drives: There are two
kinds of people
>in this world: Them who have had disk failures, and them
who are going
>to have disk failures.
>
>Dennis is right: Our
trannies ought to be recalled, too.
>
>Rich/slow old poop
I guess that was the real point I was trying to make. Rich, you hit
the
nail on the head .......... Mitsu knew about the trans. I like
your
hard drive analogy ............ we've all been there!!
Dennis -==- Philly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:38:47 -0500
From: "Chris Thompson" <
cthompson@rrinc.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: Survey Time
If you are grinding gears, has anyone tried adjusting the shift
linkages? I don't have grinding on my 5-speed, so never had to look
at it, but it has fixed this problem in numerous other cars, including my
DSM that was nearly impossible to get into 2nd without grinding until I spent
ten minutes....
Chris
93 Stealth R/T TT
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:09:49 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: Bad trannies. When did Mitsu know?
> >Dennis is right: Our trannies ought to be recalled, too.
-
---
wont happen, its not a safety issue, and its not a currently shipping
product, and if it WAS its not a high enough volume one to care.
Look at the 7M (turbo and N/A) Supras..they go thu head gaskets at a much
greater rate than you go thu trannies.
------------------------------
>wont happen, its not a safety issue, and its not a currently shipping
>product, and if it WAS its not a high enough volume one to care.
Yeah, but maybe a good bunch of damning statistics might bring enough
pressure on them to make a fix available. Suppose we find that HALF of our
cars have problems? Nobody ever asked so big a sample before. People may
not realize that a grind going into 2nd gear is NOT NORMAL.
I don't think any of us expect Mits to recall our trannies, but it sure
would be nice if they offered us replacement synchros or rebuilt trannies
at an affordable price. It'd be nice, for example, if Mits would fix bad
trannies for, say, $1200 exchange, including labor (instead of the current
$3,600). Or extend the factory warranty to, say, 100,000 miles.
I have no vested interest in this, by the way. My tranny was replaced under
warranty at 65,000 miles. Since I have only 82,000 miles on the car, mine
is not due to fail again until 130,000 miles.
Rich/slow old poop
94 VR4 on its 2nd Getrag
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:48:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: Bad trannies. When did Mitsu know?
> >wont happen, its not a safety issue, and its not a currently
shipping
> >product, and if it WAS its not a high enough volume one to
care.
> >
> Yeah, but maybe a good bunch of damning statistics
might bring enough
> pressure on them to make a fix available. Suppose we
find that HALF
> of our cars have problems? Nobody ever asked so big
a sample
> before. People may not realize that a grind going into
2nd gear
> is NOT NORMAL.
- ---
What's so damning about it?
Nobody's been killed by it, there's enough evidence to support a WISE
decision for people thinking about buying a car with that tranny, and its
a car no longer in production.
Exactly what is Getrag/Mitsu worried about?
Cant blame Getrag, because you have no proof Mitsu didn't say "That's good
enough" for the final design. The evidence almost validates that as
well..as no other Getrag product in any other manufacturer's vehicle has
any such issues.
Hell, I've got a Getrag rear-end in my Z.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:55:27 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Bad trannies. When did Mitsu know?
Parts are available and Mitsubishi no longer has anything to do with our
transmissions. They didn't care when the car was in production and they
sure as hell won't care now. As to recall, I said it before the tranny is
not a safety issue.
Jim Berry
=================================================
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:02:20 -0800
From: Rick Pierce <
piercera@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: RE: Help Cold=starts/runs great, Warm=intermittent starts/dies
Hi James,
Thanks,
I did clean the ISC and the problem still occurs, albeit
intermittently.
Thanks for the thought
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "James Mutton" <
james@playstream.com>
Sent: Friday,
January 17, 2003 2:36 PM
I've had this exact same problem in the past. Pulled the IAC, cleaned
it, problem gone.
- -James
95 Green VR-4
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:37:54 -0500
From: "Walter D. Best" <
wdb039@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Survey time
True for the newer six speeds but in my 92 shop manual (for older
the
5-speed's) GL-5 - Mobil 1 is ok. Apparently they didn't have brass
or copper bushing or synchros. With 108,000 mile with Mobil 1 in the
tranny it's still gong strong.
Thanks,
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 18:41:29 -0500
From: "bdtrent" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Survey time
92 Stealth TT. Spline shaft output to xfer case failure @ 18k.
New trans has been trouble free with 40K on the clock. For that
matter, I'm still on the original clutch. With the last 10K being
from DE events or driving to DE events, and the last 20K under the stress of
16-18psi boost, I'm satisfied with the durability so far. For what
it's worth, this drive train has never seen a hard shift or a drop clutch
start. As long as I'm driving, it never will.
Regards,
DaveT/92TT
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:21:27 -0500
From: "Walter D. Best" <
wdb039@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Adjust Survey?
You know this makes me wonder how many folks who have had transmission
failures were running Red Line?
I don't think too many were or are running Mobil 1 in the old transmissions
(91-93), but the GL-4 Red Line doesn't have the sheer strength of the
GL-5. Sheer strength is the ability of the lubricant to stay between metal
parts under pressure.
Maybe this should be an element to be added to the survey, just to see if
maybe it could be associated to the lubrication being used that could have
caused the failure.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter D. Best" <
wdb039@erols.com>
Sent: Wednesday,
February 19, 2003 6:37 PM
> True for the newer six speeds but in my 92 shop manual (for older
the
> 5-speed's) GL-5 - Mobil 1 is ok. Apparently they didn't have
brass or
> copper bushing or synchros. With 108,000 mile with Mobil
1 in the
> tranny it's still gong strong.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 18:54:08 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Adjust Survey?
I have the 5spd 93 model and after much research, I finally switched to
Redline GL-4 in both transfer case and transmission. I didn't realize that
the GL-5 only eats the newer transmission. I'm sure that I have 4 bolt
main and therefore I believe that I also have the newer spline setup
(24-spline is it?) Now the question is...
Should I leave in the MTL (GL-4)?
Or:
1) Get Redline GL-5 gear oil
2) Get a generic GL-5 gear oil
3) any
other ideas??
and what about the transfer case? Is it important that the transfer case
has the same lube as the transmission (will the lubes seep in from one to
the
other)
...and seeing that GL-5 eats trannies and not transfer cases (right?),
correct me if I'm wrong...but it would be advisable to get GL-5 in my
transfer case in order to take advantage of its sheer strength.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
just trying to get it all straight
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:02:10 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S:
reverse grinds under high load
s\Sure, I probably shouldn't be reversing that quickly. But twice I did,
and I heard a loud grinding sound. The first time, I had the rpms high and
the clutch hadn't fully engaged -- foot was still on the pedal -- when I
heard the grind. The second time, I assume the clutch was fully engaged
(my foot was fully off the pedal). I gave the car a good amount of gas and
I heard the grind again. My xfer case, tranny, and clutch all have 30k
miles on them. They've been driven gently too. The flywheel has 190k miles
though. Apparently the dealer that serviced the car at 160k miles said
"that flywheel looks fine" ... unfortunately I didn't own the car then, so
I didn't have the chance to say "replace it anyway!"
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:12:36 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S:
front brake pad jobs are easy; wear indicators seem to work
I'm not here to ask a question this time... but here's what
happened.
I was about to go to Tahoe when I heard a metal *tick-tick-tick* from the
front left wheel. I said uh-oh and dropped $70 on snow chains so that I
could take the van. But then later on I thought to myself... how hard
could the brake job be? So I bought some pads for the stealth too. I ended
up replacing all the pads in about an hour, and hence I did finally take the
stealth on the trip.
The reason I'm saying this is because I've done brake jobs that aren't
always straightforward... sometimes there's delicate springs or holding
mechanisms that can be easily broken (my g.f.'s Mercedes)... or sometimes
it's just SO HARD to get all the stuff to stay together (my old prelude).
Also I've experienced that many pads' wear indicators simply don't work [e.g. my
van]. In such situations, the driver has no clue as to what's going on
until that ugly GRINDING sound comes from the brakes... [e.g. my van,
again!] and then it's probably too late since you've got grooves in the
rotors ---> meaning you'll have to pay the extra cost of resurfacing or
maybe even replacing the rotors if you waited too long.
So my point is... I must say that the Stealth (at least the front end) has
been the easiest brake job that I've ever done. All that you need is the
pads themselves, a lug wrench, and a C-clamp to compress the 4 pistons on
each caliper before installing the new pads. When it's time for your brake
job, keep this in mind.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
pleased.. and those brakes sure work nicely
now!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:54:29 -0000
From: "Jim Matthews" <
jim@the-matthews.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Adjust Survey?
I've had MT-90 in the trans and ShockProof Heavy in the xfer case and rear
diff for 45k miles, no problems. As I stated in my reply to the
trans survey, the synchros were showing signs of wear when I bought the
car with 34k, and after an additional 56k miles (MT-90 went in after 11k,
90k on the clock now), the synchros are about the same.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:28:43 -0600
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Survey time
> True for the newer six speeds but in my 92 shop manual (for older the
> 5-speed's) GL-5 - Mobil 1 is ok. Apparently they didn't have
brass or
> copper bushing or synchros. With 108,000 mile with Mobil
1 in the
> tranny it's still gong strong.
All the manual trannies in 3/S cars have copper synchro rings and all are
susceptible to copper erosion by using GL5 fluids containing
chlorides. If your fluid contains chlorides (which Mobil1 does - at
least a few years ago it did) then you should swap it out for a fluid
which doesn't contain chlorides.
Just because the fluid says it is GL4 or GL5 doesn't mean it is
"safe". To make it more confusing, GL5 is not necessarily better
than GL4. For the synchros to work their best, you need the right
formulation fluid and GL4 "seems" to work better than GL5.
08/12/2002 GL-4 Vs. GL-5 Gear
Lubricants
I have used Mobil
1 75-90 gear oil in the manual transmission, transfer case and front
differential (4-wheel drive). I saw in an "Ask Mobil 1" question that a Triumph
manual transmission would have problems with this product. I have 40,000
miles on this gear oil with no problems. Should I expect problems? Also,
the rear differential calls for a straight 90-weight oil. Could I use the
Mobil 1 75-90 ?
-- Bill Clemens, Carlisle,
PA
Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lubricant is an API GL-5
lubricant. We do not recommend the use of Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lubricant
for any gear application that requires a GL-4 lubricant. If your vehicle
requires an API GL-4 lubricant, you should not use an API GL-5 lubricant.
The additives that are in a GL-5 gear lubricant could cause physical
damage to a gearbox that requires a GL-4 lubricant. You should verify what
the OEM recommends for each gearbox on your vehicle. Since you did not
provide any vehicle information in your inquiry, we cannot make any
determination of suitability for the lubricants in use.
12/19/2001 Gear Lube In A
Triumph
I have a '72 Triumph
TR6. The manual gearbox contains brass and bronze parts. I've heard that
some additives in modern fluids can attack these parts. Is Mobil 1 Synthetic
Gear Lube safe in these older gearboxes?
--
TSN8725@aol.com, Orland Park,
IL
We would not recommend using Mobil 1 Synthetic
Gear Lubricant in the Triumph TR6 manual transmission. Mobil 1 Synthetic
Gear Lubricant meets the requirements of API GL-5 service, while manual
transmissions require an API GL-4 or lower. The additive level of a GL-5
lubricant can be harmful to a synchromesh transmission over long-term
use.
Mitsu really shouldn't have spec'd two types of fluids as being compatible
with our cars. It really should've been spec'd as just GL4.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
I changed the plugs on my 94 Vr4 this weekend and did a compression test
while it was apart. I do not have the shop manual yet (Next pay
check) so could someone let me know if my readings are in spec.
Cyl Psi
1
101
3 95
5
105
2 110
4
100
6 105
Thanks
Dan Labonte
'94 VR4, SCCA #26 BSP
------------------------------
So, is it being stated by the list that there's a possibility that we
shouldn't use Mobil 1's Synthetic Gear oil in the diff's, just the tranny,
or both, cause it could prematurely wear the hardware? I put Mobil 1
(not sure which, there was only one at shop I bought it from) in my rear
diff when I had GM Synchromesh put in the tranny. Was either of those a
mistake?
Please advise. I don't need any more stress on an already grinding
2nd gear synchro.
Thanks,
-Patrick
Patrick Purviance
'94 Stealth R/T TT, 57k miles, Open Air Intake, Blitz
DSBC, Blitz DATT
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:03:11 -0600
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Survey time
> So, is it being stated by the list that there's a possibility that we
> shouldn't use Mobil 1's Synthetic Gear oil in the diff's, just the
> tranny, or both, cause it could prematurely wear the hardware? I
put
> Mobil 1 (not sure which, there was only one at shop I bought it
from)
> in my rear diff when I had GM Synchromesh put in the
tranny. Was
> either of those a mistake?
It is only the transmission itself which has copper parts in it. The
transfer case and rear diff can take pretty much any lube you want to use
as long as it meets the minimum specs.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:11:30 -0600
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Compression Test
> I changed the plugs on my 94 Vr4 this weekend and did a compression
> test while it was apart. I do not have the shop manual yet (Next
pay
> check) so could someone let me know if my readings are in
spec.
>
> Cyl Psi
> 1
101
> 3 95
> 5
105
> 2 110
> 4
100
> 6 105
Spec is 115-156psi with the standard value being 156 psi and the lower
limit being 115 psi. The allowed variance between cylinders is 14
psi.
Since your values are all similarly low, I'd guess that you forgot to
unplug the crank position sensor so the ECU was still injecting fuel,
which will cause a lower reading from washing away the oil layer on the
cylinder walls.
The crank sensor connector is on the front timing belt cover between the
"V" of the motor. There are two plastic connectors - the crank
sensor is the one towards the front of the car. If you want to be
extra cautious, you can unplug both (the other is the cam angle sensor).
The tests should also be run on a warm motor, so if it was cold that may be
another reason the readings were low. Since they are all pretty
similar, if the car runs okay I don't think I'd worry about it too
much.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:38:16 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Survey time
No failures - 91 TT (about 70K miles)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:28:36 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Compression Test
I did a compression test while trying to track down a problem on my car
this weekend as well:
Cyl #1: 156
Cyl #2: 150
Cyl #2: 151
Cyl
#4: 122
Cyl #5: 121
Cyl #6: 150
Cylinders 4 and 5 are about 30 PSI lower than the others. When I put
a few drops of oil in, both cylinders' compression went up 10-15
PSI. That points to worn rings, right?
The engine runs very smoothly. I did the test on a cold
engine...maybe I'll try it again on a warm engine. I'm inclined not
to mess with it; these numbers don't seem worth a rebuild to me.
What do you think?
- - Brian
------------------------------
At least there is not more than 10 pounds difference between any of
them.
------------------------------
I forgot to mention that I am up at 7400ft. So looks like my numbers
are ok.
Thanks
Dan
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Floyd
Sent: Monday, January
20, 2003 9:36 AM
At least there is not more than 10 pounds difference between any of
them.
------------------------------
Dan,
Where are you taking these measurements ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:37:41 -0600
From: "xwing" <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
Compression Test
Make sure you do the compression test with motor warm, and you have the
throttle WIDE OPEN. Since you may have the manifold off anyway to
access the rear plugs, usually that's not a problem unless you are
checking only the front 3 and manifold is still on.
The fact that all are so close makes me more suspicious your gauge is off,
the throttle was closed, the engine was cold, or such than that all
cylinders are SO bad to almost exactly the same amount...
Look at your compression gauge. What does it read BEFORE the tests?
Sometimes you have to add or subtract a correction factor, if the needle
reads something other than zero.
Do you have aftermarket cams, cam gears?
Are you cranking the motor at
least 5-10 revolutions?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:50:38 +0000
From:
mjannusch@attbi.comSubject: RE:
Team3S: Compression Test
> Cyl #1: 156
> Cyl #2: 150
> Cyl #2:
151
> Cyl #4: 122
> Cyl #5: 121
> Cyl #6:
150
>
> Cylinders 4 and 5 are about 30 PSI lower than the
>
others. When I put a few drops of oil in, both
> cylinders'
compression went up 10-15 PSI. That
> points to worn rings,
right?
Worn rings, typically - but not necessarily. My car read the same as
yours,
with three fractured pistons. About 155 on the good ones, 120
on the busted
ones. Car ran okay until the point where it threw chunks
of ring land through
the valves and into the other cylinders, and crushed
the electrodes of the
spark plugs.
What was the other problem that you were trying to diagnose that made you
try
a compression test?
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#58
**************************************