Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth   Monday, December 2 2002   Volume 02 : Number 014
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:15:37 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
> Pipe is Aluminized, which has a 95% lifespan of Stainless, is lighter
> and more durable. You will not find any real race car with stainless
> exhaust. Just look at any NASCAR website, they are all aluminized or
> plain steel because they would crack stainless pipes.
 
To be honest, my car is not a stock car. Also the HKS is aluminized ... no way aluminized steel  will find my support again ! Make it the same quality like the Borla or ATR stainless steel !
 
> We put the pipes on the scales once... I remember it was MUCH lighter
> than stock but I don't remember where it lined up with the Stillen.
 
Of course :-) Everything is lighter than the stock crap :-)
 
> I think my
> pipe was a few lb lighter but consider that I also 2 additional
> flanges
and
> a flex section that the Stillen did not.
 
The Stillen is heavier than the ATR. I placed two flex sections into the ATR and it is still  lighter.
 
> Performance results on Erik's car were clear without a chart. Read his
> website, he had to re-adjust his Boost controller because the turbos
> were spooling much faster with my pipe and spiking past his set limit
> :)
 
This is due to the gutted precats.
 
> As of right now I do not have comparison charts mainly due to the fact
that
> my stock exhaust was tossed in the trash 6 months before I started
> doing these. So I have nothing real to compare to. My True-dual setup
> accounted for a gain of 48 WHP over stock with gutted cats. When I get
> my car
running
> again I will test true-dual vs one of my DP's and a single shot
> cat-back.
 
This horsepower gain is measured with the G-Tech pro. But this is due to the weight loss. Also the  precats are responsible for about 80% of the true power gain measured on a dyno. Don't be  surprised not to find more than 5% difference on a dyno (what is the typical dyno error in between  two runs)
 
A true dual would be directly from the turbos back, but I highly recommend to synchronize the gas  pulses, so an y in the downpipe is nothing bad. Also one large piping is able to flow better due  to less bends so a one side exhaust is recommended. An Y for the split is again a deflector and  creates turbulence in the piping. Therefore a true dual setup with a smaller cross-over might be  the best solution. But of course I would like to keep the stock looking and love the dual side  exhausts.
 
Build the stuff of the best material available for durability, reliability and performance and  you're in business. ... like you make the testpipe also in stainless steel ;-)
 
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 07:10:36 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
Maybe I got started off on the wrong foot here but my earlier post was not meant to attack you  personally. If I offended you I apologize, I was just trying to get the facts straight. Also I'm  sure you won't mind me commenting to you back on the technical forum since that is were this all  got stared anyway. If you'd like to repost your entire response here please feel free.
 
> Shawn, I do not know whom you do research for but your comments here
> are about as factual as those coming from a Schucks "ASE certified
> technician" or Mitsubishi service mechanics most of whom know about as
> much about my car as my left boot.
 
Always good to come onto a "technical forum" with factual information and have a true technician,  such as yourself, throw out insults because I don't agree with your post.
 
> First of all, this discussion has been taken aside of the 3000GT issue
> and this will be my only reply to the board about it.
 
I don't agree here either, this has much to do with 3000GT, as they all have exhaust systems that  are made with either aluminized pipe or with SS.
 
> Based on Manufacturer real world simulation tests, the pipe I use is
> rated at a lifespan of 95% of their Stainless version. The pipe is
> also warranted for 10 years by this same manufacturer.
 
Allied's warranty information is located on their website www.alliedexhaust.com but for some  reason I guess they decided not to put all of it there. Doesn't seem to be anything about 10 years  listed. In fact, to quote Allied's warranty "This is an "out-of-box" warranty and shall be  effective only if the defect is discovered prior to installation or immediately upon installation  and start-up of the vehicle on which the product is installed"
 
> VERY FEW new cars come out with a
> full stainless exhaust. Those that do are designed to be eye candy
> designed for un-educated people whom don't know the difference between
> Aluminized and Galvanized steel. Problem with Zinc coating is that
> even through the process of electrolysis it does not bond to steel
> at all; it always remains a "coating".
 
Somehow many folks seem to think that SS is "shiny" actually a very small percentage of the SS  that is produced in the world is actually used in a "cosmetic" application. Most is used in the  "annealed and pickled" state, which gives stainless a dull grey finish.
 
Actually galvanized steel and aluminized steel are made in much the same way, however neither of  the process uses electrolysis. (Electro-galvanizing uses electrolysis) Both products begin the  same way, with a coil of cold rolled carbon steel this coil is then "hot dipped" in a metallic  solution, in the case of aluminized, the solution is mainly aluminum.
 
With ether a scratch, a bit of overheating or moisture it comes
> off. Aluminum is applied to steel pipes in a similar way but with some
> key differences. I don't work at one of the plants that produces them,
> I am not a metallurgist, but my understanding is that the liquid
> solution used in the process of aluminizing a pipe is very different.
> Furthermore, through this process aluminum bonds with steel
> essentially becoming one with it. Only at temperatures of over
> 2300F do they separate.
 
The aluminum coating does bond with the base metal, however it is still a coating and that coating  can be measured by thickness. They do not actually aluminize the pipe, a large coil of sheet is  first aluminized and then processed into tubing. One thing that we must keep in mind here is that  aluminized is still just a coated product, the aluminum does not somehow magically transform the  steel into something else. The ASTM specification for aluminized steel (eventually processed into  exhaust tubing ) is ASTM A463 Type 1 This specification covers all of the processes that go into  producing aluminized steel, including the thickness of the coating. ASTM stands for American  Society of Testing and Materials.
 
>Aluminum, unlike stainless
> steel cannot corrode with water at all, it is also flexible and not
> brittle like stainless steel which CRACKS when heat and stress
> are applied.
Sorry to burst your bubble here but aluminum does corrode with water, the oxidization formed is  called "aluminum oxide" commonly referred to as "white rust". As for stainless steel cracking under  heat and stress, I suggest you do some research into that statement, chemical processors, oil  refineries and much of international industry has already done theirs.
 
I won't spend any more time on this this morning but since this is a technical forum and this  subject was brought up here I will post more on this matter later.
 
And by the way, after 25 years in this industry my skin is pretty thick so you'll have to come up  with something a little more substantial than the schucks thing to get to me.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:24:45 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
A very good technical background here that covers (and of course exceeds) my current knowledge in  metallurgy.
 
I can speak about the aluminized HKS exhaust that looks pretty bad after a few months and that is  much heavier than comparable ss exhausts. The pipes of the HKS are much thicker material with the  aluminum coat on it. As the exhaust is underneath the car it is exposed to stones and other stuff  that can scratch the surface. The exact happened to the muffler at one side and it already starts  to rust there ... :-( For sure I'm going back to another cat-back like the Borla with different  mufflers...full stainless steel of course.
 
Regarding the corroded aluminum, just look at the stock rims I drove during many winters, salt and  debris made live for them pretty hard... and they are made from aluminum. As far as I know the  aluminum used on battleships is called "Anitcorrodal" what is a special Aluminum that is resistant  against salt water and lighter than SS.
 
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:38:09 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe ....Continued
 
> Shawn, I do not know whom you do research for but your comments here
> are about as factual as those coming from a Schucks "ASE certified
> technician" or Mitsubishi service mechanics most of whom know about as
> much about my
car
> as my left boot.
 
>> To state that in this country there is a "shortage" of any basic
>> material
> for manufacture is absurd. You are telling me that Stillen and others
> pay double for whatever alloy steel they use and the manufacturers of
> T409 are just sitting on their hands? Are you nuts? Its not like the
> stuff is mined or something and there is a real shortage of raw ore.
> All steel comes to us from raw IRON ore and I'm sure I don't need
> to look up the actual numbers to show that there is plenty of that.
> It is merely a matter of taking the
> ore and adding things to it, heating it, cooling it etc. I am an
> amateur blacksmith and know a bit about how its done, its simple.
> There is no way that there is any basic alloy of steel that is in
> shortage to car and/or exhaust manufacturers.
 
OK here is how supply and demand in the steel industry works.... plus a short lesson in steel  making. Steel is basically a commodity and as in any commodity driven market prices are driven by  two things, Supply and Demand. Here are some basic costs of steel at the mill level, these are an  average of all shapes not specific to sheet or tube.
 
Hot rolled carbon steel.......    $0.20 Lb
Cold finished carbon steel..    $0.28 Lb
Galvanized Carbon steel...     $0.30 Lb
Aluminized Carbon steel..      $0.30 Lb
T409 Stainless Steel........      $0.45 Lb
T304 Stainless Steel........      $0.60 Lb
 
Keep in mind that these prices are only an average for comparison purposes, but are close to  actual prices over the last 3-5 years. Now when the mills produce they must have a market for the  products and these markets are...
1) Large distributors, or what is commonly referred to as Steel Service Centers. These are the main  customer of the steel mills for most products. These service centers warehouse, process and  distribute to OEMs, fabricators, machine shops etc.
2) Large OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers) and guess who the largest OEMs in the US  are....the auto manufacturers. These companies buy the majority pf their steel products directly  from the mills in such large quantities that, in many cases they are able to buy cheaper than the  service centers can. They also have the ability to purchase most of what a particular mill is  willing to produce in a given product, namely T409 SS. For the most part the mills do not want to  produce T409 because it is a cheaper product, and while it is cheaper to produce, it is also less  profitable for the mills. Now when the mills produce T409 not all of it is sold to the auto  manufacturers, some of it actually does make it's way to the service center level but, as  discussed earlier, the auto manufacturers buy this material cheaper than the service centers and  when the service center resells the product they mark it up as well. This puts price of T409, when  purchased from a steel service center, much closer to the price of T304.
 
Now as for using "raw ore" to produce steel, there are hardly any mills still in existence that  use "raw ore" to produce steel. The majority of steel that is produced in the world today is  actually produced from recycled scrap.
 
(You should research some of your statements before making them)
 
> I would be really entertained to see a factory installed
> header/exhaust manifold made out of stainless steel. The alloy of
> stainless that would be needed to survive that heat would cost more
> than any manufacturer would even consider. True, that super alloys
> of stainless steel can be used in high temp environments. Someone
> mentioned exhaust ports on a jet engine... I have worked with,
> worked on and seen many times military jet engines. I have never
> seen a stainless exhaust component. I will not rule out that
> Boeing is using some very expensive SS alloy. I am just saying
> that if they are, it is NOTHING like anything you will ever see
> on a car.
 
We'll work on this in the next installment.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:42:23 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
I want to point out one slight technicality here. Erik: correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you  upgrading from the Stillen downpipe to the TySpeed downpipe? And weren't the precats were already  gutted? Also, the weight difference between the stock pipe and the Stillen is minimal,  correct? Roger: When you spoke of the weight difference, I believe you were still assuming that  Erik was going from a stock DP to the TySpeed.
 
Anyway, I'm not sure absolutely sure about the above statement, but looking through Erik's  website, that's the impression I got.
 
- ------------------->
 
"Tyson" wrote:
 
> Performance results on Erik's car were clear without a chart. Read his
> website, he had to re-adjust his Boost controller because the turbos
> were spooling much faster with my pipe and spiking past his set limit
> :) As of right now I do not have comparison charts mainly due to the
> fact that my stock exhaust was tossed in the trash 6 months before I started
> doing these. So I have nothing real to compare to. My True-dual setup
> accounted for a gain of 48 WHP over stock with gutted cats. When I get
> my car running again I will test true-dual vs one of my DP's and a single shot
> cat-back.
 
"Roger G." wrote:
 
This is due to the gutted precats.
 
This horsepower gain is measured with the G-Tech pro. But this is due to the weight loss. Also the  precats are responsible for about 80% of the true power gain measured on a dyno. Don't be  surprised not to find more than 5% difference on a dyno (what is the typical dyno error in between  two runs)
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:50:40 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
> correct? Roger: When you spoke of the weight difference, I believe you
> were still assuming that Erik was going from a stock DP to the TySpeed.
 
I spoke of the total system from the gutted precats to the tips. There is a lot weight gain of any  system (but not the HKS) over the stock exhaust. A cat-back system starts to make sense when the  precats became gutted.
 
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:57:19 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
Riyan, you are absolutely right. It seems that a few people here whom for whatever reason think  they know something are making judgments without reading.
 
Erik Gross upgraded to my pipe from a Stillen. His cats already gutted. His paraphrased words were  that he has had his EBC settings set for some time now and never hit his overboost warning with  the Stillen. After we installed my pipe we hit overboost twice rather easily. He noted that using  his butt-dyno the turbos spooled faster. When buying my pipe Erik was not looking for a  performance gain over Stillen, he just wanted a pipe that he could remove without having to use  the BFH. My pipe fits! Another thing that even I noticed was that under WOT the car felt smoother.  Secondary things noted were that my pipe was also a bit louder which says to me that it is less  restrictive. Erik is a very technical guy, knows a ton about our cars, electronics and is the man  our local club usually asks for help when they need it.
 
Far as my Gtech-Pro measurements, yes that is exactly what I do and I stand by them. Again, Roger  you made many assumptions without reading, without research and posted them here...
 
Gtech-Pro when used correctly has a +/-3HP variance. Matter of fact, I would stand by my readings  vs a Dyno that had been done on 2 separate days. Before I take readings on my car, the car is  taken to a transfer station and put on the scales. I also bring a scale with me to weigh myself  for the test. I drive 40 miles each way to a perfect test site which is a road that has been built  on cement pallets going over a small body of water, hence it is PERFECTLY flat, which I confirmed  with my GPS device. I then take measurements of air temp, barometer readings and weather  conditions which are all matched as closely as possible at the next test. I also calculate for  weight loss due to burned gasoline that it took to get there. I have another person with me to do  the recording and witnessing whom is also put on the scale before he gets in the car. We make 6  runs in each direction of the perfectly flat road monitoring intake temperature with one of my  intake temp gauges to ensure that is it always the same. Get the point yet? I'm anal about my  tests! And as a payoff the results I get are always within 3-4HP of one another. Ever do 12 runs  on a dyno and got all of the numbers within 4HP? When I say that a 20 WHP gain has been made, it  is not due to weight loss, cold weather, a butt dyno or a friend with a stopwatch.
 
Far as the validity of Gtech-Pro numbers... The device has been tested by magazines, TV car shows  and many others. I have never read about a properly done test where it came out of it's 3HP  variance. Most common problem with people using them is not finding a perfectly flat road. Even  the smallest incline or slope puts the numbers way out of whack. Most of the car shows and  magazines out there have started to use the Gtech in their shows and articles because it works.
 
On making exhaust systems, please don't bother teaching me. You know about as much about exhaust  as Shawn does about supply and demand. The true dual has been phased out but not due to poor  performance.
 
Your choice of Cat-backs is not surprising. First you got an HKS, which from the sound of it  dragged on the ground or hit speed bumps with one of the mufflers. Now you are looking for a  Borla which has a 2.5" restricting reducer ring at the forward flange. Good choice bro! You can  carry the weight of a 3" exhaust but have it work about as good as the stock 2.5"! But wait, you  will get shiny tips and a rumble sound, what more could you want? I don't know where Roger drives  his car, but rocks and boulders hitting the undercarriage are not a concern for most of us. Small  rocks and gravel found on roads (even dirt roads) will not hurt the aluminized coating. Dragging  your muffler on the ground will, regardless of whether its Aluminized or stainless.
 
On pipe thicknesses, since Aluminum is FUSED to the steel in a process of electrolysis, the pipe  is not thicker. I am still waiting of one of you to find a SINGLE REAL race car that uses  stainless exhaust, especially headers or downpipe. Note: must be a gasoline powered car.
 
Good Lord, this is feeling more and more like 3SI. Bottom line, you don't like it, don't buy it.  EVERYONE whom has got any of my products has been happy with them.
 
Tyson
 
 Ohh and BTW, feel free to post a 3 part rebuttal like your friend. Not that I am getting to ether  one of you... :p
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: Riyan Mynuddin
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
I want to point out one slight technicality here. Erik: correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you  upgrading from the Stillen downpipe to the TySpeed downpipe? And weren't the precats were already  gutted? Also, the weight difference between the stock pipe and the Stillen is minimal,  correct? Roger: When you spoke of the weight difference, I believe you were still assuming that  Erik was going from a stock DP to the TySpeed.
 
Anyway, I'm not sure absolutely sure about the above statement, but looking through Erik's  website, that's the impression I got.
 
- ------------------->
 
"Tyson" wrote:
 
> Performance results on Erik's car were clear without a chart. Read his
> website, he had to re-adjust his Boost controller because the turbos
> were spooling much faster with my pipe and spiking past his set limit
> :) As of right now I do not have comparison charts mainly due to the
> fact that my stock exhaust was tossed in the trash 6 months before I started
> doing these. So I have nothing real to compare to. My True-dual setup
> accounted for a gain of 48 WHP over stock with gutted cats. When I get
> my car running again I will test true-dual vs one of my DP's and a single shot
> cat-back.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:39:34 -0800
From: "eK2mfg" <eK2mfg@attbi.com>
Subject: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe - Rant for those with extra time
 
The "Rocket Scientists" of this board have struck again.....I for one will never under  understand...never the details of the G-tech Pro and how it works (heard it all before...don't  educate me) I know Tyson, I was there when his car ran 13's at the track and that damn radar  detector was within .1 of his run every time. Don't understand it...don't need to. Ty stands by  his work! period....some of it isn't the best out there but sometimes giving up a little bit of  quality to gain much more in service and value is something to be said. It is coming along...it  will be the top of the pics for the turbos.
 
This list will tear down people for the simple fact of showing off what they know...when sometimes  they don't know...sometimes they do...many Guru's on this list are respected....but let a new guy  drop a product on here with some constructive criticism and it becomes personal...a sort of attack  of what he doesn't know rather than a progress to make his idea better....no it must be knocked  down! We don't want to save money, we want to install things that don't fit and then be happy  because it came with a sticker that says HKS or Greddy...if it come with a sticker it MUST be  quality. How did that go in Tommy Boy....I could put a warranty sticker on a box full of turds? We  all know the G-tech is just a accelerometer with some trick goodies...take it for what it's  worth...but let a respected member of the list (Erik) post his feedback witch was honest and true  and put this on his site and it still must be slammed. It's your money...spend it the way you  want...you earned it...things are sold for profit...we all do this for profit...nobody does it for  the love. Tyson stands by his stuff...you don't like something....he will fix it...period! If you  didn't buy it, not planning on buying it, don't know anything about it, never touched it or seen  it...well then who is in the wrong by slamming it? If Erik said it sucked then wouldn't he have  said so? If he noticed a bigger lag or it sounded like a dead duck coming from the  tips...wouldn't he had said something? I think so..........
 
Tyson stands by his work and products. Doesn't push it down your throat like so seniors members do  here with it the signature...(that's a rule isn't it?) I personally think he is weird.....but he  stands by his work...and for that he is a asset to this community and respected for his  contributions in our local club and abroad. I think if all you have to contribute is countless  complaints and opinions on things with nothing constructive like 'hey make the flex section longer"  or "Add o2 sensors here or tmp bungs here" then what is it your actually doing here?
 
I believe the HP claims should be done on dyno's, but if your told up front it is from a g-tech  then wouldn't you at least think its worthy of checking into? maybe offering a dyno run result on  your ride for one at cost....the more feedback and improvements we make on the things we sell will  only help us out.
 
OK Mr. Forrest...send me my violation notice. But this gets out of hand sometimes. I see every  email.....enough about this please.......Tyson stands by his work!
 
bobk.
9399R/T
ek2mfg on the 3si board
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:50:40 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
Roger-
 
Don't take this in the wrong way, because I just want everyone to be on the same level before we  make comparisons. We're still talking about different things here.  Sure, (quoting your post) you  "spoke of the total system". But Tyson's test was not based on the total system being modified!
 
It's been discussed many times that removing precats helps the spool-up. And I want my spool-up to  be quicker. That's why the thread is entitled "removing a Stillen downpipe"... because I want to  remove my Stillen downpipe and gut my rear precat.
 
But regarding Tyson's dyno test: what I meant is that Erik already had gutted his precats. It was  no longer a "multivariable equation"... In Tyson's post, he was referring to this particular  test---the test in which the only thing that changed was the downpipe: Stillen to TySpeed.
 
I hope that makes sense and clears up at least some of the confusion.
 
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
 
- ----------------------->
 
I wrote:
 
> correct? Roger: When you spoke of the weight difference, I believe you
> were still assuming that Erik was going from a stock DP to the TySpeed.
 
- ------------------------------>
 
Roger wrote:
 

I spoke of the total system from the gutted precats to the tips. There is a lot weight gain of any  system (but not the HKS) over the stock exhaust. A cat-back system starts to make sense when the  precats became gutted.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:50:57 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
Guys... calm down .. ok ?
 
Of course we don't buy it if we don't like it, but it is fact that we are always looking for  better products than available as many have their problems.
 
Interesting thing :
 
> When I say that a 20 WHP gain has been made, it is not due to weight
> loss, cold weather, a butt dyno or a friend with a stopwatch.
 
> > these. So I have nothing real to compare to. My True-dual setup
> > accounted for a gain of 48 WHP over stock with gutted cats. When
> > I get my car running again I will test true-dual vs one of my
> > DP's and a single shot cat-back.
 
So what was the gain ??? 20 or 48 WHP ? Or was this just a descriptive statement.
 
> Far as my Gtech-Pro measurements, yes that is exactly what I do and I
> stand by them. Again, Roger you made many assumptions without reading,
> without research and posted them here...
 
Hmmm, explain WHAT assumptions I made please !
 
> Gtech-Pro when used correctly has a +/-3HP variance. Matter of fact,
> I would stand by my readings vs a Dyno that had been done on 2
> separate days.  Before I take readings on my car, the car is taken
> to a transfer station and put on the scales. I also bring a scale
> with me to weigh myself for the test.
 
And what was the weight difference ?
 
> on the scale before he gets in the car. We make 6 runs in each
> direction of the perfectly flat road monitoring intake temperature
> with one of my intake temp gauges to ensure that is it always the
> same. Get the point yet?
 
No, but of course  I like the way you test things out and record the data
 
> Your choice of Cat-backs is not surprising.
 
Why not ?
 
> First you got an HKS, which from  the sound of it dragged on the
> ground or hit speed bumps with one of the mufflers.
 
Oh, did I ? Don't forget that I had the Borla on the car already some years ago. And no, the  ground clearance of my car is good, just sign of road debris or small rocks or however you want to  call it on the piping and muffler. But it seems that the material you are using is better than the  one HKS is using, don't know of course.
 
> Now you are looking for a Borla which has a 2.5" restricting reducer
> ring at the forward flange.
 
The flange got removed later with using an ATR Testpipe or High Flow Cat from Random Tech ... I  guess I know what I do ;-))
 
> Good choice bro! You can carry the weight of a 3" exhaust but
> have it work about as good as the stock 2.5."  But wait, you
> will get shiny tips and a rumble sound, what more could you want?
 
Not necessary to become 3SI board-sarcastic... stay technical, ok ! In fact the rumble sound comes  with a drone and you know why too.
 
> I don't know where Roger drives his car, but rocks and boulders
> hitting the undercarriage are not a concern for most of us.
> Small rocks and gravel found on roads (even dirt roads)
> will not hurt the aluminized coating.
 
Well ... it DID.
 
> Dragging
> your muffler on the ground will, regardless of whether its Aluminized
> or stainless.
 
Yes, you are technically right :-) And of course we know this. Well, until today, the piping and  main muffler hasn't hit anything... the car is not lowered.
 
> On pipe thicknesses, since Aluminum is FUSED to the steel in a process
> of electrolysis, the pipe is not thicker. I am still waiting of one of
> you to find a SINGLE REAL race car that uses stainless exhaust,
> especially headers or downpipe. Note: must be a gasoline powered car.
 
All our Porsche and Audi race cars as well as the DTM stuff cars.
 
> Good Lord, this is feeling more and more like 3SI. Bottom line, you
> don't like it, don't buy it. EVERYONE whom has got any of my products
> has been happy with them.
 
Great !! Your products of course are great, the horsepower gain is just too optimistic and why not  making the pipes from SS ... does only cost a little bit more, right ? I know how my ATR looks  like after many winters and how the Borla looked before it was removed. And I know how the HKS  looks now ... and I'm positive that your stuff is goof as you learned from others who had problems  (missing flex sections as an example).
 
To be honest, replacing the Stillen dp with yours resulting in such noticeable technically  explainable gain is irritating to me. What is different than the additional bend forward that you  did in your design ? Is the internal design of the tubing different so the gain is to be explained  ? What is different in the front so the turbo may spool up quicker... sorry, I just can't see an  explanation.
 
>  Ohh and BTW, feel free to post a 3 part rebuttal like your friend.
> Not that I am getting to ether one of you... :p
 
I don't understand this phrase, please explain !
 
Just a note, we want to learn and not to kill a product or to criticize it in anyway. It's a  discussion and the phrase "it works, trust me" is simply not acceptable (no, you did not say this  of course, just an explanation). We want to learn why aluminized steel is better than stainless  steel.
 
I got my information from my local exhaust maker does the prototypes for Sauber F1 team (they use  the Ferrari engines) and he showed me that the same 3" tubing to be used to be aluminized must be  thicker than a stainless steel tubing of the same quality. He also mentioned that the weight is  higher compared, but for a testpipe as an example it is not a big factor of course. Could be  that he is wrong and you right. But I'd like to get a dp from you that is made from SS .. just my  bad experience with the other quality. You already offer the testpipe from Stainless Steel ... so  there must be a cause for that, right ?
 
Thanks for the clarifications !
 
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:58:34 -0500
From: "Andre Cerri" <cerri@intersystems.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's this light?
 
Oh, been meaning to ask, where do the wires run for the rear reservoir? My ragtop convertible  doesn't have one, and the light is permanently on as I guess the conversion guys forgot about it,  or the fix came loose?
 
Thx
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pedenko
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's this light?
 
Remember - there's a rear reservoir too - if it's not the front, it could be the rear.
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Matthews
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's this light?
 
> http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/op_rdz/lst?.dir=/My+Photo+Album&.view=t
 
Windshield washer fluid.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:03:19 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S: differential nightmare
 
I changed my rear differential oil just now. As the junk drained out, I wouldn't even call that  stuff gear oil. It was a long stream of metal shavings!! The stuff just oozed out slowly. Finally,  towards the end there was a little bit of actual "gear oil" in there. Clearly, the total amount of  liquid was not a quart like it should be. It seems like that oil hasn't been touched ever since  189000 miles and 9 years ago when the car was born.
 
Enough about that. I took the car for a spin after changing the differential oil and once in  awhile I hear CLUNK noises now.  It happens when I'm driving very slow....clunk, clunk. But it's  intermittent. I only heard the clunks a few times, but it sounds like it's coming from the back of  the car [that's why I stopped suspecting engine mounts]. When I heard the clunk and sped up, the  clunk turned into a rubbing noise. then after I go faster than 5 mph or so, no noises are audible  and the car seems to run fine.
 
Could it be a bad differential? Perhaps caused by that unfortunate episode of the alignment shop  running my car on 2 wheels? Or is the thing just old?
 
What should I do?
 
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
making funny noises!
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:51:54 -0500
From: Dennis Ninneman <dninneman@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
Tigran Varosyan wrote:
 
>On pipe thicknesses, since Aluminum is FUSED to the steel in a process
>of electrolysis, the pipe is not thicker. I am still waiting of one of
>you to find a SINGLE REAL race car that uses stainless exhaust,
>especially headers or downpipe. Note: must be a gasoline powered car.
>
Aluminized, galvanized .......... either one ..... a thin layer on top
of a highly corrosive metal ......... ordinary, low carbon steel.  The
only aluminum that can withstand the harshness of engine exhaust is
maybe some exotic aircraft grade ......... but even that is never used
as a coating.  How many mils is the thickness of this aluminum
'coating'?  And by the way ....... you knock Mitsu or ASE techs, but are
willing to believe a manufacturer's claims?  You need to get out more.
 
Few of us have Winston Cup cars.  Few of us trailer our beloved 3S's to
and from the track.  They are driven daily or close to daily.  We want a
combined performance and longevity without braking the bank.  Stainless
is the metal of choice in this application.  No three part rebuttal ....
none needed.
 
Dennis -==- Philly
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:26:33 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe - Rant for those with extra time
 
I did not in any of my posts say that Tyson doesn't stand by his products, in fact most of the  posts that I have seen on this forum attest to the fact that he does good work and stands by his  products. However I did find fault with his facts concerning SS vs Aluminized carbon steel, these  were the basis for the comments that I made.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:32:27 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe ....Continued
 
>OK here is how supply and demand in the steel industry works.... plus a
>short lesson in steel making.
 
All this reminds me of how I bought some sheet metal once, to build a panel in the back of the  rally car to seal off the gas tank in the trunk. All I needed was a 2 x 3 ft section of aluminum  plate, about 1/8 in. thick.
 
Not worrying about how steel and aluminum is made, like most racers, I just went to the source:  The Rockwell salvage yard in Columbus, Ohio, where I picked up a nice piece of used sheet metal  for $5.00
 
We got it home, measured off the correct dimensions, and started cutting it with a hacksaw. A  half-dozen blades and two saws later, we hadn't made a nick in it. We tried drilling a hole, no  luck. In utter frustration, we took it back to Rockwell, where the guy said, "Oops, sold you a  piece of titanium by mistake." He found us a nice piece of soft aluminum to replace it.
 
We used lots of stuff from the Rockwell salvage yard to build the rally car: switches, interior  lights (old 24V aircraft lights), wiring, aluminum sump guards, brackets, etc. Can't find a place  like that today.
 
Rich/slow old poop
*sigh* Nostalgia just isn't what it used to be.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:37:20 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
 
Ok, lets start over...
 
20 HP was a descriptive statement. 48 WHP was for the true-dual exhaust. I do not yet have exact  numbers for the downpipe. I am reasonably confident that 48 will come from a downpipe and cat-back  but there has been some discussion about whether the stock cat-back is all that bad so right now I  will not make that statement. I think everyone agrees that stock cat-back is way too heavy.
 
I don't have the exact weight calculation numbers anymore, those were done for the true dual  system about 8 months ago and I no longer offer the true dual anyway. I do remember it was a hell  of a lot lighter than stock which is practically a double-pipe (2.5" inside of a 3" pipe) design  for heat reduction purposes.
 
>From your last email I understood that it was your assumption that the
faster spool time resulted from removal of pre-cats, which was incorrect. The other was that the  HP gains from the true dual pipe came from weight loss. Weight loss was accounted for when the  tests were performed.
 
Whom are "our Porsche and Audi" and what is DTM? They have SS downpipes or headers? Ceramic coated  or super expensive alloys made for $200,000 race cars are not exactly comparing apples to apples  here. I was told by a guy whom works on 2 NASCAR crews and runs an exhaust shop here in Kirkland  that no NASCAR uses SS because it cannot stand up to their specs. Direct words out of his mouth.
 
There are key differences between my pipe and Stillen. The 2 sections coming off from each bank  are 2.25". Initially this was done for clearance near the transfer case (so that the pipe does not  rub and bang like the Stillen). I attribute some of the gains to scavenging effect. We have 3L  engines, that makes each bank about 1.5L. Using a 2.5" pipe for that relatively small of a volume  is complete overkill and the exhaust gas passing through it cannot maintain velocity. I have been  playing around with the idea of even trying a 2" pipe. The stock downpipe uses 2" piping there,  maybe they were on to something...
 
The second major difference is in the combination of flows. The collector used by Stillen is a  tiny, cheap, pressed sheet metal collector. Only way I could have real numbers was if I cut one  apart and they cost too much for that. However, if you look closely at their collector, it is VERY  restrictive through about 1" distance when it does the actual combination of air. I would estimate  that the 2 2.5" flows get compressed into a the area of a 2" circle for a short amount of time. In  exhaust flow dynamics any L-H-L (Low-High-Low) pressures are an absolute killer combination to the  flow. (Note H-L-H is used for muffling and is not quite as bad). The collector used by the Stillen  pipe certainly causes L-H-L, I just cant tell for sure to what degree without dissecting it. My  collector is the single most expensive component of the pipe. It is not a pressed sheet metal  shape, its a real V collector. It does not crimp down on the flow and avoids the L-H-L condition  caused by the Stillen.
 
Reason I do not like to use Stainless is because #1 a number of key components are ether  unavailable (like my special collector) or PITA to get in SS. #2 is SS pipe costs about 2.5 times  more because nobody here in the NW (and yes guys, we get the most rainfall here) uses SS and many  parts have to be special-ordered.
 
Only reason I put up an SS test pipe was because someone asked about one and the closest  competitor I could find wanted $99 for it. Yea, you want a 17" piece of pipe for $50, sure I will  sell it, I will even make it shiny. Matter of fact, if you got the money for it I will make an SS  DP too, just the cost will reflect the materials. I only make about $100-120 on these and spend  about 5-6 hours on each. I hope that as I get some more tools etc that time will go down because  as of now its certainly not worth it. Account for mistakes, wear on tools, consumable tools like  cutting discs and my profit is tiny.
 
Tyson
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 20:41:09 -0500
From: Dennis Ninneman <dninneman@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe - Rant for those with extra time
 
I don't know how old you are, but I've been through this (HP claims for
the chrome dipsticks) on more than one occasion.  Not to suggest that
Tysons dp has no performance gain.  I've been a hot rodder since the 60s,
modifying cars through the 70s ...... back in it in the 90s.  Worked
Formula 1, CART.  Rallied, autocrossed, drag raced.  Worked for two car
companies ........ GM Research.  Rebuilt Detroit iron, carburetors,
suspensions, bodies.  Member of SCCA, ISCA.   The world is full of well
intentioned people standing behind what they truly believe are great
products.  They have testimonials from individuals that will swear up
and down that Mario Andretti uses it in his personal vehicles.  Sorry, I
for one need independent, blinded tests using objective measures.  I
tell my son ........ with his VR4 ....... to be just as careful.  This
is not to say EVERYTHING that Tyson and Erik say are Gospel.   However,
the three of you must be honest with yourselves by asking what does the
rest of this board have other than our words to prove what we say?
 
That said ........... Tysons products may very well be wonderful
......... few of us on this board know first hand.  Secondly, I'm a
relative new comer to the board.  Great community of what appears to be
mature, race experienced 3S advocates with other than just a drag race
mentality.   One thing that would ruin this board is advertising.  I'm
assuming this was built for advocacy not advertising ones products
......... either directly or indirectly through friends.
 
Dennis -==- Philly
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:06:50 -0500
From: "Planet" <planet.j@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Team3S: Exhaust questions. What should I get?
 
Lots of talk about downpipes. Still learning here, my guess is the section from exhaust manifold  to the cat. Someone want to correct me if I am wrong.
 
Question:
 
My flex pipe is really leaking causing my check engine light(correct me if I'm wrong, I figured  this from the manual). The sound it is making is okay with me but it will only get worse. Is it  true that since the pipe is leaking, it causes the oxygen sensor to pick up wrong readings and  thus it may increase/decrease the fuel/air ratio?
 
What are my options to fix this. I'm told by a couple mechanics I cant just replace the flex  section but the whole pipe. Someone posted they just replaced the flex section. I figured why  can't they just weld one in. I priced the stock pipe from manifold to cat at $450 CDN. Is there an  aftermarket pipe that doesn't cost this much? I have already spent $3500 in the last month making  this car road worthy. I would love a cheap but good solution. Also, there are a lot of performance  car part places around here, so I could probably get somewhere to order me one. If there is  another option instead of the stock pipe, what is the brand/made/model/number or what ever I could  use to identify it.
 
Thanks
Jason (new member)
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:23:06 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Exhaust questions. What should I get?
 
Lots of talk about downpipes. Still learning here, my guess is the section from exhaust manifold  to the cat. Someone want to correct me if I am wrong.
 
**** Yea its in there but there is a bit more to it than that. If you have a turbo model the setup  goes like so. Engine-header-turbo-O2 housing. Then in the front it goes right to the downpipe and  in the rear there is a precat then the downpipe. The rear uses a combination pre-cat/O2 housing  piece that sits vertical. Not 100% sure on N/A's but I think its the same minus the turbo. If you  are under your car, its the forward-most horizontal piece of pipe.
 
Question:
 
My flex pipe is really leaking causing my check engine light(correct me if I'm wrong, I figured  this from the manual).
 
***** If you have a leak before an O2 sensor, you will throw a CE light, that is right. Are you  just assuming that the flex section is broken or have you felt it? If you are not sure, I would  suggest confirming it. Other things crack too. The front header is notorious.
 
The sound it is making is okay
with me but it will only get worse. Is it true that since the pipe is leaking, it causes the  oxygen sensor to pick up wrong readings and thus it may increase/decrease the fuel/air ratio?
 
***** O2 is ignored under Wide Open Throttle (WOT) and at some other situations, but yes cruising  around it will run rich and kill your fuel ratio and efficiency. Furthermore you will backfire and  hear *PUTT* *PUTT* sounds.
 
What are my options to fix this. I'm told by a couple mechanics I cant just replace the flex  section but the whole pipe. Someone posted they just replaced the flex section. I figured why  can't they just weld one in.
 
***** They could. Take it to a custom muffler shop and tell them exactly what you want done. They  will do it. Problem is, flex section of the stock length (we are talking about the rear one,  right?) is pricey. I would not be surprised at a $100+ (US, I don't know what the exchange rate is  anymore) repair bill. Your only options are to replace or repair.
 
I priced the stock pipe from manifold to cat at $450 CDN. Is there an aftermarket pipe that  doesn't cost this much?
 
***** Again, what is that in US $ and what trim level car do you have? Check www.3si.org and look  in the "tuners" section. Plenty of choices there. Feel free to browse my site too (its not on  their list yet).
 
I have already spent $3500 in
the last month making this car road worthy. I would love a cheap but good solution. Also, there  are a lot of performance car part places around here, so I could probably get somewhere to order  me one.
 
***** Order it from the website that makes the pipe. Other than Stillen I think all pipes are made  in-shop.
 
If there is another
option instead of the stock pipe, what is the brand/made/model/number or what ever I could use to  identify it.
 
***** Check out www.3sxperformance.com , www.dnperformance.com , www.alteredatmosphere.com and my  site (link below with the sig). Go to the 3si forums and search the archives. Common issues with  Stillen, ATR and some others is that they plainly do not fit. Also if you have an N/A model your  choices of pipes will be rather limited.
 
Thanks
Jason (new member)
 
***** Hope that helps,
 
Tyson
www.tyspeedperformance.com
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:59:16 -0600
From: "cody" <overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rubbing noise
 
Why in the world would they use an on-the-car method of balancing... I never understood that  whatsoever...  That is hell on your Vicious
Coupling...   Heh...Especially if any speed whatsoever is involved (I
would imagine a decent amount of speed be needed to balance a tire on the car, just as it is done  off the car...)  To me, that's just as bad as towing the vehicle with two wheels in the "sling"  and two wheels on the ground... Personally, I'd say you are lucky the Vicious Coupling is still  operable...
 
- -Cody
'93 3000GT SL
'91 Talon AWD
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: Riyan Mynuddin
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 12:12 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rubbing noise
 
I didn't warn then about the AWD since from what I've seen, wheel balancing is generally done off  the car with a separate machine. So I thought that's what they would do too. But I happened to  walk over when they were almost done. 2 wheels on the ground and two spinning in the air. As they  were doing whatever "on-car method" for balancing, I heard a loud rubbing noise. This noise  sounded different than the quiet rubbing noise from after hitting the mountain. This rubbing was  almost loud enough to call a grinding noise. While they were balancing the last couple wheels I  asked them "is that noise something to worry about?"  ... as I thought to myself what the hell are  they doing???  And the employee at the shop said oh yeah... your LSD is just a little bit  "unhappy" since it wants to spin 4 at the same time, but it's nothing to worry about.
 
Well, he sounded so sure about it that I did believe him. I thought maybe since it's a short  period of time, no biggie. Car handled just fine on the way home too. Plus, these guys have been  in business forever. Their prices reflect it too. No hurry-it-up "flat rate" alignments here. They  only did this two wheels in the air thing for a short period of time. Less than 2 minutes of  spinning and verifying per wheel = about 5 to 6 minutes of running the car like that.
 
So what do I do next? Is 5 to 6 minutes enough to hurt anything? Should I just forget about it, or  should I ask the local mitsu dealer to check the AWD system and bill the alignment shop for it? If  anyone cares to give me a hand in getting started, I'd appreciate that. But for everyone else's  sake, be sure to keep any responses that lack technical info off the list.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:35:12 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. Kryjevski" <abk4@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk SZ50 any good?
 
Hello:
 
I am considering replacing rear tires on my 92 R/T (f.w.d.). From what Tirerack.com survey says  Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP appears to be the best (traction, wear, even noise and ride comfort).  Does anybody have any experience with these? The archive search gave one positive opinion, but  would like to hear more, for the Firestone brandname scares me somewhat...
 
Currently I have Goodyear Eagle GS-C on the front and (worn) Falken Ziex-502 on the rear (all  275/40 17). Can anybody compare these with Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP?
 
Finally, does anybody ever care how much different tires weigh? Does it have any tangible  influence on the performance?
 
Thank you.
 
Andrei Kryjevski.
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 02:17:01 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk SZ50 any good?
 
Andrei,
 
   I prefer Pirelli P-Zero as they have saved my life and my car more times than I care to count  (great traction).  Yes they are expensive but they last me 30,000 miles and that is unheard of for  a tire with a treadwear of 140.  They fit me as I do not drive like a banshee through puddles so  do not need a full wet tread tire.  So that is all I will suggest.
   A tire weighs about 25 pounds for my 245/40/18 as well as the 255/45/17 track tires (Yokohama  A-032).  The only thing this affects is the amount that is slung round and round in order to get  up to speed or the amount to stop from slinging when slowing down.  Same with the wheel and rotor,  etc.  It all slings round and round.  But when a car weighs 4,000 pounds (3,850 with 200 pound  driver easily) then the 100 pounds in tires is so insignificant that it makes no difference in  total weight. Is there a difference when slung round and round?  Yep.
   A 255/17 tire will perform better (faster acceleration) than a big fat 275/18 tire.   Decelerating though the wider tire may have more grip and traction but in a drag race you only  want to go fast.  In a road race you want to go fast, accelerate well, but also decelerate  quickly. The "Sport Compact Car" did a test a year ago or so of three wheel/tire combos (16", 17",  and 18") as well as acceleration tests/lap times at I think either Buttonwillow or a track like  that.  The 17" combo did best.
   So if you are a maniac on the country roads then get a tire with grip.  If you are a salesman  logging thousands of miles per month then get the long life one.  I can't say anything about the  Firehawk as I have never used one so all I can give are points about my tires but ask more  questions if you want.
 
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 currently with 235/45/17 Blizzak snow tires
 
- -----Original Message-----
From: A. Kryjevski
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 01:35
 
I am considering replacing rear tires on my 92 R/T (f.w.d.). From what Tirerack.com survey says  Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP appears to be the best (traction, wear, even noise and ride comfort).  Does anybody have any experience with these? The archive search gave one positive opinion, but  would like to hear more, for the Firestone brandname scares me somewhat...
 
Currently I have Goodyear Eagle GS-C on the front and (worn) Falken Ziex-502 on the rear (all  275/40 17). Can anybody compare these with Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP?
 
Finally, does anybody ever care how much different tires weigh? Does it have any tangible  influence on the performance?
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:43:25 -0800
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust questions. What should I get?
 
I would consider ordering a new down pipe and replacing the whole thing.  I generally don't like  to weld new exhaust parts to old one.  I figure that if part of the old one has corroded and worn  a hole then the rest of the exhaust part is on its last leg too.
 
You will also be able to save money on the install.  Replacing the down pipe is easy and can be  done with relative ease.  4 bolts on the front and middle and 2 nut/bolt combinations at the main  cat.
 
Get an estimate from a muffler shop and then check prices for a whole new one online.  Tigran gave  some good links for known performance parts vendors that sell good down pipes.  I'll bet the  prices will be very close after including labor.
 
Doug
92 Stealth RT TT
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:29:42 -0600
From: "Richard Fennell" <realmstl@charter.net>
Subject: Fw: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk SZ50 any good?
 
I've got the SZ50's on my Conquest and am very happy with them.  The grip in dry and wet is pretty  good.  They seem to be lasting a long time, but I don't race this car. The tires ride nice and I  don't notice any road noise. For the price, I'd get another set.
 
I wouldn't worry about tire weights unless you were in all out racing.  If that was the case, you  wouldn't be looking at the SZ50's.
 
Rich
 
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Kryjevski" <abk4@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 12:35 AM
Subject: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk SZ50 any good?
 
> Hello:
>
> I am considering replacing rear tires on my 92 R/T (f.w.d.). From what
> Tirerack.com survey says Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP appears to be the
> best (traction, wear, even noise and ride comfort). Does anybody have
> any experience with these? The archive search gave one positive
> opinion, but would like to hear more, for the Firestone brandname
> scares me somewhat...
>
> Currently I have Goodyear Eagle GS-C on the front and (worn)
> Falken Ziex-502 on the rear (all 275/40 17). Can anybody
> compare these with Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP?
>
> Finally, does anybody ever care how much different tires weigh?
> Does it have any tangible influence on the performance?
 
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
 
------------------------------
 
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2 #14
**************************************