Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Monday, December 2
2002 Volume 02 : Number 014
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:15:37 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
> Pipe is Aluminized, which has a 95% lifespan of Stainless, is lighter
> and more durable. You will not find any real race car with stainless
> exhaust. Just look at any NASCAR website, they are all aluminized or
> plain steel because they would crack stainless pipes.
To be honest, my car is not a stock car. Also the HKS is aluminized ... no
way aluminized steel will find my support again ! Make it the same quality
like the Borla or ATR stainless steel !
> We put the pipes on the scales once... I remember it was MUCH lighter
> than stock but I don't remember where it lined up with the
Stillen.
Of course :-) Everything is lighter than the stock crap :-)
> I think my
> pipe was a few lb lighter but consider that I also
2 additional
> flanges
and
> a flex section that the Stillen did
not.
The Stillen is heavier than the ATR. I placed two flex sections into the
ATR and it is still lighter.
> Performance results on Erik's car were clear without a chart. Read his
> website, he had to re-adjust his Boost controller because the turbos
> were spooling much faster with my pipe and spiking past his set limit
> :)
This is due to the gutted precats.
> As of right now I do not have comparison charts mainly due to the
fact
that
> my stock exhaust was tossed in the trash 6 months before I
started
> doing these. So I have nothing real to compare to. My True-dual
setup
> accounted for a gain of 48 WHP over stock with gutted cats. When
I get
> my car
running
> again I will test true-dual vs one of
my DP's and a single shot
> cat-back.
This horsepower gain is measured with the G-Tech pro. But this is due to
the weight loss. Also the precats are responsible for about 80% of the
true power gain measured on a dyno. Don't be surprised not to find more
than 5% difference on a dyno (what is the typical dyno error in between
two runs)
A true dual would be directly from the turbos back, but I highly recommend
to synchronize the gas pulses, so an y in the downpipe is nothing bad.
Also one large piping is able to flow better due to less bends so a one
side exhaust is recommended. An Y for the split is again a deflector and
creates turbulence in the piping. Therefore a true dual setup with a smaller
cross-over might be the best solution. But of course I would like to keep
the stock looking and love the dual side exhausts.
Build the stuff of the best material available for durability, reliability
and performance and you're in business. ... like you make the testpipe
also in stainless steel ;-)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 07:10:36 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
Maybe I got started off on the wrong foot here but my earlier post was not
meant to attack you personally. If I offended you I apologize, I was just
trying to get the facts straight. Also I'm sure you won't mind me
commenting to you back on the technical forum since that is were this all
got stared anyway. If you'd like to repost your entire response here please feel
free.
> Shawn, I do not know whom you do research for but your comments here
> are about as factual as those coming from a Schucks "ASE certified
> technician" or Mitsubishi service mechanics most of whom know about as
> much about my car as my left boot.
Always good to come onto a "technical forum" with factual information and
have a true technician, such as yourself, throw out insults because I
don't agree with your post.
> First of all, this discussion has been taken aside of the 3000GT issue
> and this will be my only reply to the board about it.
I don't agree here either, this has much to do with 3000GT, as they all
have exhaust systems that are made with either aluminized pipe or with
SS.
> Based on Manufacturer real world simulation tests, the pipe I use is
> rated at a lifespan of 95% of their Stainless version. The pipe is
> also warranted for 10 years by this same manufacturer.
Allied's warranty information is located on their website
www.alliedexhaust.com but for some
reason I guess they decided not to put all of it there. Doesn't seem to be
anything about 10 years listed. In fact, to quote Allied's warranty "This
is an "out-of-box" warranty and shall be effective only if the defect is
discovered prior to installation or immediately upon installation and
start-up of the vehicle on which the product is installed"
> VERY FEW new cars come out with a
> full stainless exhaust.
Those that do are designed to be eye candy
> designed for un-educated
people whom don't know the difference between
> Aluminized and Galvanized
steel. Problem with Zinc coating is that
> even through the process of
electrolysis it does not bond to steel
> at all; it always remains a
"coating".
Somehow many folks seem to think that SS is "shiny" actually a very small
percentage of the SS that is produced in the world is actually used in a
"cosmetic" application. Most is used in the "annealed and pickled" state,
which gives stainless a dull grey finish.
Actually galvanized steel and aluminized steel are made in much the same
way, however neither of the process uses electrolysis.
(Electro-galvanizing uses electrolysis) Both products begin the same way,
with a coil of cold rolled carbon steel this coil is then "hot dipped" in a
metallic solution, in the case of aluminized, the solution is mainly
aluminum.
With ether a scratch, a bit of overheating or moisture it comes
>
off. Aluminum is applied to steel pipes in a similar way but with some
>
key differences. I don't work at one of the plants that produces them,
>
I am not a metallurgist, but my understanding is that the liquid
>
solution used in the process of aluminizing a pipe is very different.
>
Furthermore, through this process aluminum bonds with steel
> essentially
becoming one with it. Only at temperatures of over
> 2300F do they
separate.
The aluminum coating does bond with the base metal, however it is still a
coating and that coating can be measured by thickness. They do not
actually aluminize the pipe, a large coil of sheet is first aluminized and
then processed into tubing. One thing that we must keep in mind here is
that aluminized is still just a coated product, the aluminum does not
somehow magically transform the steel into something else. The ASTM
specification for aluminized steel (eventually processed into exhaust
tubing ) is ASTM A463 Type 1 This specification covers all of the processes that
go into producing aluminized steel, including the thickness of the
coating. ASTM stands for American Society of Testing and Materials.
>Aluminum, unlike stainless
> steel cannot corrode with water at
all, it is also flexible and not
> brittle like stainless steel which
CRACKS when heat and stress
> are applied.
Sorry to burst your bubble
here but aluminum does corrode with water, the oxidization formed is
called "aluminum oxide" commonly referred to as "white rust". As for stainless
steel cracking under heat and stress, I suggest you do some research into
that statement, chemical processors, oil refineries and much of
international industry has already done theirs.
I won't spend any more time on this this morning but since this is a
technical forum and this subject was brought up here I will post more on
this matter later.
And by the way, after 25 years in this industry my skin is pretty thick so
you'll have to come up with something a little more substantial than the
schucks thing to get to me.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:24:45 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
A very good technical background here that covers (and of course exceeds)
my current knowledge in metallurgy.
I can speak about the aluminized HKS exhaust that looks pretty bad after a
few months and that is much heavier than comparable ss exhausts. The pipes
of the HKS are much thicker material with the aluminum coat on it. As the
exhaust is underneath the car it is exposed to stones and other stuff that
can scratch the surface. The exact happened to the muffler at one side and it
already starts to rust there ... :-( For sure I'm going back to another
cat-back like the Borla with different mufflers...full stainless steel of
course.
Regarding the corroded aluminum, just look at the stock rims I drove during
many winters, salt and debris made live for them pretty hard... and they
are made from aluminum. As far as I know the aluminum used on battleships
is called "Anitcorrodal" what is a special Aluminum that is resistant
against salt water and lighter than SS.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:38:09 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe ....Continued
> Shawn, I do not know whom you do research for but your comments here
> are about as factual as those coming from a Schucks "ASE certified
> technician" or Mitsubishi service mechanics most of whom know about as
> much about my
car
> as my left boot.
>> To state that in this country there is a "shortage" of any basic
>> material
> for manufacture is absurd. You are telling me that
Stillen and others
> pay double for whatever alloy steel they use and the
manufacturers of
> T409 are just sitting on their hands? Are you nuts?
Its not like the
> stuff is mined or something and there is a real
shortage of raw ore.
> All steel comes to us from raw IRON ore and I'm
sure I don't need
> to look up the actual numbers to show that there is
plenty of that.
> It is merely a matter of taking the
> ore and
adding things to it, heating it, cooling it etc. I am an
> amateur
blacksmith and know a bit about how its done, its simple.
> There is no
way that there is any basic alloy of steel that is in
> shortage to car
and/or exhaust manufacturers.
OK here is how supply and demand in the steel industry works.... plus a
short lesson in steel making. Steel is basically a commodity and as in any
commodity driven market prices are driven by two things, Supply and
Demand. Here are some basic costs of steel at the mill level, these are an
average of all shapes not specific to sheet or tube.
Hot rolled carbon steel....... $0.20 Lb
Cold finished
carbon steel.. $0.28 Lb
Galvanized Carbon
steel... $0.30 Lb
Aluminized Carbon
steel.. $0.30 Lb
T409 Stainless
Steel........ $0.45 Lb
T304 Stainless
Steel........ $0.60 Lb
Keep in mind that these prices are only an average for comparison purposes,
but are close to actual prices over the last 3-5 years. Now when the mills
produce they must have a market for the products and these markets
are...
1) Large distributors, or what is commonly referred to as Steel
Service Centers. These are the main customer of the steel mills for most
products. These service centers warehouse, process and distribute to OEMs,
fabricators, machine shops etc.
2) Large OEMs (Original Equipment
Manufacturers) and guess who the largest OEMs in the US are....the auto
manufacturers. These companies buy the majority pf their steel products
directly from the mills in such large quantities that, in many cases they
are able to buy cheaper than the service centers can. They also have the
ability to purchase most of what a particular mill is willing to produce
in a given product, namely T409 SS. For the most part the mills do not want
to produce T409 because it is a cheaper product, and while it is cheaper
to produce, it is also less profitable for the mills. Now when the mills
produce T409 not all of it is sold to the auto manufacturers, some of it
actually does make it's way to the service center level but, as discussed
earlier, the auto manufacturers buy this material cheaper than the service
centers and when the service center resells the product they mark it up as
well. This puts price of T409, when purchased from a steel service center,
much closer to the price of T304.
Now as for using "raw ore" to produce steel, there are hardly any mills
still in existence that use "raw ore" to produce steel. The majority of
steel that is produced in the world today is actually produced from
recycled scrap.
(You should research some of your statements before making them)
> I would be really entertained to see a factory installed
>
header/exhaust manifold made out of stainless steel. The alloy of
>
stainless that would be needed to survive that heat would cost more
>
than any manufacturer would even consider. True, that super alloys
> of
stainless steel can be used in high temp environments. Someone
> mentioned
exhaust ports on a jet engine... I have worked with,
> worked on and seen
many times military jet engines. I have never
> seen a stainless exhaust
component. I will not rule out that
> Boeing is using some very expensive
SS alloy. I am just saying
> that if they are, it is NOTHING like anything
you will ever see
> on a car.
We'll work on this in the next installment.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:42:23 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
removing a Stillen downpipe
I want to point out one slight technicality here. Erik: correct me if I'm
wrong, but weren't you upgrading from the Stillen downpipe to the TySpeed
downpipe? And weren't the precats were already gutted? Also, the weight
difference between the stock pipe and the Stillen is minimal, correct?
Roger: When you spoke of the weight difference, I believe you were still
assuming that Erik was going from a stock DP to the TySpeed.
Anyway, I'm not sure absolutely sure about the above statement, but looking
through Erik's website, that's the impression I got.
- ------------------->
"Tyson" wrote:
> Performance results on Erik's car were clear without a chart. Read his
> website, he had to re-adjust his Boost controller because the turbos
> were spooling much faster with my pipe and spiking past his set limit
> :) As of right now I do not have comparison charts mainly due to the
> fact that my stock exhaust was tossed in the trash 6 months before I
started
> doing these. So I have nothing real to compare to. My True-dual
setup
> accounted for a gain of 48 WHP over stock with gutted cats. When
I get
> my car running again I will test true-dual vs one of my DP's and
a single shot
> cat-back.
"Roger G." wrote:
This is due to the gutted precats.
This horsepower gain is measured with the G-Tech pro. But this is due to
the weight loss. Also the precats are responsible for about 80% of the
true power gain measured on a dyno. Don't be surprised not to find more
than 5% difference on a dyno (what is the typical dyno error in between
two runs)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:50:40 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
> correct? Roger: When you spoke of the weight difference, I believe
you
> were still assuming that Erik was going from a stock DP to the
TySpeed.
I spoke of the total system from the gutted precats to the tips. There is a
lot weight gain of any system (but not the HKS) over the stock exhaust. A
cat-back system starts to make sense when the precats became gutted.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:57:19 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
Riyan, you are absolutely right. It seems that a few people here whom for
whatever reason think they know something are making judgments without
reading.
Erik Gross upgraded to my pipe from a Stillen. His cats already gutted. His
paraphrased words were that he has had his EBC settings set for some time
now and never hit his overboost warning with the Stillen. After we
installed my pipe we hit overboost twice rather easily. He noted that
using his butt-dyno the turbos spooled faster. When buying my pipe Erik
was not looking for a performance gain over Stillen, he just wanted a pipe
that he could remove without having to use the BFH. My pipe fits! Another
thing that even I noticed was that under WOT the car felt smoother.
Secondary things noted were that my pipe was also a bit louder which says to me
that it is less restrictive. Erik is a very technical guy, knows a ton
about our cars, electronics and is the man our local club usually asks for
help when they need it.
Far as my Gtech-Pro measurements, yes that is exactly what I do and I stand
by them. Again, Roger you made many assumptions without reading, without
research and posted them here...
Gtech-Pro when used correctly has a +/-3HP variance. Matter of fact, I
would stand by my readings vs a Dyno that had been done on 2 separate
days. Before I take readings on my car, the car is taken to a transfer
station and put on the scales. I also bring a scale with me to weigh
myself for the test. I drive 40 miles each way to a perfect test site
which is a road that has been built on cement pallets going over a small
body of water, hence it is PERFECTLY flat, which I confirmed with my GPS
device. I then take measurements of air temp, barometer readings and
weather conditions which are all matched as closely as possible at the
next test. I also calculate for weight loss due to burned gasoline that it
took to get there. I have another person with me to do the recording and
witnessing whom is also put on the scale before he gets in the car. We make
6 runs in each direction of the perfectly flat road monitoring intake
temperature with one of my intake temp gauges to ensure that is it always
the same. Get the point yet? I'm anal about my tests! And as a payoff the
results I get are always within 3-4HP of one another. Ever do 12 runs on a
dyno and got all of the numbers within 4HP? When I say that a 20 WHP gain has
been made, it is not due to weight loss, cold weather, a butt dyno or a
friend with a stopwatch.
Far as the validity of Gtech-Pro numbers... The device has been tested by
magazines, TV car shows and many others. I have never read about a
properly done test where it came out of it's 3HP variance. Most common
problem with people using them is not finding a perfectly flat road. Even
the smallest incline or slope puts the numbers way out of whack. Most of the car
shows and magazines out there have started to use the Gtech in their shows
and articles because it works.
On making exhaust systems, please don't bother teaching me. You know about
as much about exhaust as Shawn does about supply and demand. The true dual
has been phased out but not due to poor performance.
Your choice of Cat-backs is not surprising. First you got an HKS, which
from the sound of it dragged on the ground or hit speed bumps with one of
the mufflers. Now you are looking for a Borla which has a 2.5" restricting
reducer ring at the forward flange. Good choice bro! You can carry the
weight of a 3" exhaust but have it work about as good as the stock 2.5"! But
wait, you will get shiny tips and a rumble sound, what more could you
want? I don't know where Roger drives his car, but rocks and boulders
hitting the undercarriage are not a concern for most of us. Small rocks
and gravel found on roads (even dirt roads) will not hurt the aluminized
coating. Dragging your muffler on the ground will, regardless of whether
its Aluminized or stainless.
On pipe thicknesses, since Aluminum is FUSED to the steel in a process of
electrolysis, the pipe is not thicker. I am still waiting of one of you to
find a SINGLE REAL race car that uses stainless exhaust, especially
headers or downpipe. Note: must be a gasoline powered car.
Good Lord, this is feeling more and more like 3SI. Bottom line, you don't
like it, don't buy it. EVERYONE whom has got any of my products has been
happy with them.
Tyson
Ohh and BTW, feel free to post a 3 part rebuttal like your friend.
Not that I am getting to ether one of you... :p
- -----Original Message-----
From: Riyan Mynuddin
Sent: Sunday,
December 01, 2002 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: removing a Stillen
downpipe
I want to point out one slight technicality here. Erik: correct me if I'm
wrong, but weren't you upgrading from the Stillen downpipe to the TySpeed
downpipe? And weren't the precats were already gutted? Also, the weight
difference between the stock pipe and the Stillen is minimal, correct?
Roger: When you spoke of the weight difference, I believe you were still
assuming that Erik was going from a stock DP to the TySpeed.
Anyway, I'm not sure absolutely sure about the above statement, but looking
through Erik's website, that's the impression I got.
- ------------------->
"Tyson" wrote:
> Performance results on Erik's car were clear without a chart. Read his
> website, he had to re-adjust his Boost controller because the turbos
> were spooling much faster with my pipe and spiking past his set limit
> :) As of right now I do not have comparison charts mainly due to the
> fact that my stock exhaust was tossed in the trash 6 months before I
started
> doing these. So I have nothing real to compare to. My True-dual
setup
> accounted for a gain of 48 WHP over stock with gutted cats. When
I get
> my car running again I will test true-dual vs one of my DP's and
a single shot
> cat-back.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:39:34 -0800
From: "eK2mfg" <
eK2mfg@attbi.com>
Subject: Team3S:
removing a Stillen downpipe - Rant for those with extra time
The "Rocket Scientists" of this board have struck again.....I for one will
never under understand...never the details of the G-tech Pro and how it
works (heard it all before...don't educate me) I know Tyson, I was there
when his car ran 13's at the track and that damn radar detector was within
.1 of his run every time. Don't understand it...don't need to. Ty stands
by his work! period....some of it isn't the best out there but sometimes
giving up a little bit of quality to gain much more in service and value
is something to be said. It is coming along...it will be the top of the
pics for the turbos.
This list will tear down people for the simple fact of showing off what
they know...when sometimes they don't know...sometimes they do...many
Guru's on this list are respected....but let a new guy drop a product on
here with some constructive criticism and it becomes personal...a sort of
attack of what he doesn't know rather than a progress to make his idea
better....no it must be knocked down! We don't want to save money, we want
to install things that don't fit and then be happy because it came with a
sticker that says HKS or Greddy...if it come with a sticker it MUST be
quality. How did that go in Tommy Boy....I could put a warranty sticker on a box
full of turds? We all know the G-tech is just a accelerometer with some
trick goodies...take it for what it's worth...but let a respected member
of the list (Erik) post his feedback witch was honest and true and put
this on his site and it still must be slammed. It's your money...spend it the
way you want...you earned it...things are sold for profit...we all do this
for profit...nobody does it for the love. Tyson stands by his stuff...you
don't like something....he will fix it...period! If you didn't buy it, not
planning on buying it, don't know anything about it, never touched it or
seen it...well then who is in the wrong by slamming it? If Erik said it
sucked then wouldn't he have said so? If he noticed a bigger lag or it
sounded like a dead duck coming from the tips...wouldn't he had said
something? I think so..........
Tyson stands by his work and products. Doesn't push it down your throat
like so seniors members do here with it the signature...(that's a rule
isn't it?) I personally think he is weird.....but he stands by his
work...and for that he is a asset to this community and respected for his
contributions in our local club and abroad. I think if all you have to
contribute is countless complaints and opinions on things with nothing
constructive like 'hey make the flex section longer" or "Add o2 sensors
here or tmp bungs here" then what is it your actually doing here?
I believe the HP claims should be done on dyno's, but if your told up front
it is from a g-tech then wouldn't you at least think its worthy of
checking into? maybe offering a dyno run result on your ride for one at
cost....the more feedback and improvements we make on the things we sell
will only help us out.
OK Mr. Forrest...send me my violation notice. But this gets out of hand
sometimes. I see every email.....enough about this please.......Tyson
stands by his work!
bobk.
9399R/T
ek2mfg on the 3si board
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:50:40 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
removing a Stillen downpipe
Roger-
Don't take this in the wrong way, because I just want everyone to be on the
same level before we make comparisons. We're still talking about different
things here. Sure, (quoting your post) you "spoke of the total
system". But Tyson's test was not based on the total system being
modified!
It's been discussed many times that removing precats helps the spool-up.
And I want my spool-up to be quicker. That's why the thread is entitled
"removing a Stillen downpipe"... because I want to remove my Stillen
downpipe and gut my rear precat.
But regarding Tyson's dyno test: what I meant is that Erik already had
gutted his precats. It was no longer a "multivariable equation"... In
Tyson's post, he was referring to this particular test---the test in which
the only thing that changed was the downpipe: Stillen to TySpeed.
I hope that makes sense and clears up at least some of the confusion.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
- ----------------------->
I wrote:
> correct? Roger: When you spoke of the weight difference, I believe
you
> were still assuming that Erik was going from a stock DP to the
TySpeed.
- ------------------------------>
Roger wrote:
I spoke of the total system from the gutted precats to the tips. There
is a lot weight gain of any system (but not the HKS) over the stock
exhaust. A cat-back system starts to make sense when the precats became
gutted.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:50:57 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
Guys... calm down .. ok ?
Of course we don't buy it if we don't like it, but it is fact that we are
always looking for better products than available as many have their
problems.
Interesting thing :
> When I say that a 20 WHP gain has been made, it is not due to weight
> loss, cold weather, a butt dyno or a friend with a stopwatch.
> > these. So I have nothing real to compare to. My True-dual
setup
> > accounted for a gain of 48 WHP over stock with gutted cats.
When
> > I get my car running again I will test true-dual vs one of
my
> > DP's and a single shot cat-back.
So what was the gain ??? 20 or 48 WHP ? Or was this just a descriptive
statement.
> Far as my Gtech-Pro measurements, yes that is exactly what I do and
I
> stand by them. Again, Roger you made many assumptions without reading,
> without research and posted them here...
Hmmm, explain WHAT assumptions I made please !
> Gtech-Pro when used correctly has a +/-3HP variance. Matter of
fact,
> I would stand by my readings vs a Dyno that had been done on
2
> separate days. Before I take readings on my car, the car is
taken
> to a transfer station and put on the scales. I also bring a
scale
> with me to weigh myself for the test.
And what was the weight difference ?
> on the scale before he gets in the car. We make 6 runs in each
> direction of the perfectly flat road monitoring intake
temperature
> with one of my intake temp gauges to ensure that is it
always the
> same. Get the point yet?
No, but of course I like the way you test things out and record the
data
> Your choice of Cat-backs is not surprising.
Why not ?
> First you got an HKS, which from the sound of it dragged on the
> ground or hit speed bumps with one of the mufflers.
Oh, did I ? Don't forget that I had the Borla on the car already some years
ago. And no, the ground clearance of my car is good, just sign of road
debris or small rocks or however you want to call it on the piping and
muffler. But it seems that the material you are using is better than the
one HKS is using, don't know of course.
> Now you are looking for a Borla which has a 2.5" restricting reducer
> ring at the forward flange.
The flange got removed later with using an ATR Testpipe or High Flow Cat
from Random Tech ... I guess I know what I do ;-))
> Good choice bro! You can carry the weight of a 3" exhaust but
>
have it work about as good as the stock 2.5." But wait, you
> will
get shiny tips and a rumble sound, what more could you want?
Not necessary to become 3SI board-sarcastic... stay technical, ok ! In fact
the rumble sound comes with a drone and you know why too.
> I don't know where Roger drives his car, but rocks and boulders
> hitting the undercarriage are not a concern for most of us.
>
Small rocks and gravel found on roads (even dirt roads)
> will not hurt
the aluminized coating.
Well ... it DID.
> Dragging
> your muffler on the ground will, regardless of
whether its Aluminized
> or stainless.
Yes, you are technically right :-) And of course we know this. Well, until
today, the piping and main muffler hasn't hit anything... the car is not
lowered.
> On pipe thicknesses, since Aluminum is FUSED to the steel in a process
> of electrolysis, the pipe is not thicker. I am still waiting of one of
> you to find a SINGLE REAL race car that uses stainless exhaust,
> especially headers or downpipe. Note: must be a gasoline powered
car.
All our Porsche and Audi race cars as well as the DTM stuff cars.
> Good Lord, this is feeling more and more like 3SI. Bottom line, you
> don't like it, don't buy it. EVERYONE whom has got any of my products
> has been happy with them.
Great !! Your products of course are great, the horsepower gain is just too
optimistic and why not making the pipes from SS ... does only cost a
little bit more, right ? I know how my ATR looks like after many winters
and how the Borla looked before it was removed. And I know how the HKS
looks now ... and I'm positive that your stuff is goof as you learned from
others who had problems (missing flex sections as an example).
To be honest, replacing the Stillen dp with yours resulting in such
noticeable technically explainable gain is irritating to me. What is
different than the additional bend forward that you did in your design ?
Is the internal design of the tubing different so the gain is to be
explained ? What is different in the front so the turbo may spool up
quicker... sorry, I just can't see an explanation.
> Ohh and BTW, feel free to post a 3 part rebuttal like your
friend.
> Not that I am getting to ether one of you... :p
I don't understand this phrase, please explain !
Just a note, we want to learn and not to kill a product or to criticize it
in anyway. It's a discussion and the phrase "it works, trust me" is simply
not acceptable (no, you did not say this of course, just an explanation).
We want to learn why aluminized steel is better than stainless
steel.
I got my information from my local exhaust maker does the prototypes for
Sauber F1 team (they use the Ferrari engines) and he showed me that the
same 3" tubing to be used to be aluminized must be thicker than a
stainless steel tubing of the same quality. He also mentioned that the weight
is higher compared, but for a testpipe as an example it is not a big
factor of course. Could be that he is wrong and you right. But I'd like to
get a dp from you that is made from SS .. just my bad experience with the
other quality. You already offer the testpipe from Stainless Steel ... so
there must be a cause for that, right ?
Thanks for the clarifications !
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:58:34 -0500
From: "Andre Cerri" <
cerri@intersystems.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: What's this light?
Oh, been meaning to ask, where do the wires run for the rear reservoir? My
ragtop convertible doesn't have one, and the light is permanently on as I
guess the conversion guys forgot about it, or the fix came loose?
Thx
- -----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pedenko
Sent: Saturday,
November 30, 2002 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's this light?
Remember - there's a rear reservoir too - if it's not the front, it could
be the rear.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Matthews
Sent: Saturday,
November 30, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's this light?
Windshield washer fluid.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:03:19 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S:
differential nightmare
I changed my rear differential oil just now. As the junk drained out, I
wouldn't even call that stuff gear oil. It was a long stream of metal
shavings!! The stuff just oozed out slowly. Finally, towards the end there
was a little bit of actual "gear oil" in there. Clearly, the total amount
of liquid was not a quart like it should be. It seems like that oil hasn't
been touched ever since 189000 miles and 9 years ago when the car was
born.
Enough about that. I took the car for a spin after changing the
differential oil and once in awhile I hear CLUNK noises now. It
happens when I'm driving very slow....clunk, clunk. But it's intermittent.
I only heard the clunks a few times, but it sounds like it's coming from the
back of the car [that's why I stopped suspecting engine mounts]. When I
heard the clunk and sped up, the clunk turned into a rubbing noise. then
after I go faster than 5 mph or so, no noises are audible and the car
seems to run fine.
Could it be a bad differential? Perhaps caused by that unfortunate episode
of the alignment shop running my car on 2 wheels? Or is the thing just
old?
What should I do?
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
making funny noises!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:51:54 -0500
From: Dennis Ninneman <
dninneman@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
Tigran Varosyan wrote:
>On pipe thicknesses, since Aluminum is FUSED to the steel in a process
>of electrolysis, the pipe is not thicker. I am still waiting of one of
>you to find a SINGLE REAL race car that uses stainless exhaust,
>especially headers or downpipe. Note: must be a gasoline powered
car.
>
Aluminized, galvanized .......... either one ..... a thin layer
on top
of a highly corrosive metal ......... ordinary, low carbon
steel. The
only aluminum that can withstand the harshness of engine
exhaust is
maybe some exotic aircraft grade ......... but even that is never
used
as a coating. How many mils is the thickness of this aluminum
'coating'? And by the way ....... you knock Mitsu or ASE techs, but
are
willing to believe a manufacturer's claims? You need to get out
more.
Few of us have Winston Cup cars. Few of us trailer our beloved 3S's
to
and from the track. They are driven daily or close to daily.
We want a
combined performance and longevity without braking the bank.
Stainless
is the metal of choice in this application. No three part
rebuttal ....
none needed.
Dennis -==- Philly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:26:33 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe - Rant for those with extra time
I did not in any of my posts say that Tyson doesn't stand by his products,
in fact most of the posts that I have seen on this forum attest to the
fact that he does good work and stands by his products. However I did find
fault with his facts concerning SS vs Aluminized carbon steel, these were
the basis for the comments that I made.
------------------------------
>OK here is how supply and demand in the steel industry works.... plus a
>short lesson in steel making.
All this reminds me of how I bought some sheet metal once, to build a panel
in the back of the rally car to seal off the gas tank in the trunk. All I
needed was a 2 x 3 ft section of aluminum plate, about 1/8 in.
thick.
Not worrying about how steel and aluminum is made, like most racers, I just
went to the source: The Rockwell salvage yard in Columbus, Ohio, where I
picked up a nice piece of used sheet metal for $5.00
We got it home, measured off the correct dimensions, and started cutting it
with a hacksaw. A half-dozen blades and two saws later, we hadn't made a
nick in it. We tried drilling a hole, no luck. In utter frustration, we
took it back to Rockwell, where the guy said, "Oops, sold you a piece of
titanium by mistake." He found us a nice piece of soft aluminum to replace
it.
We used lots of stuff from the Rockwell salvage yard to build the rally
car: switches, interior lights (old 24V aircraft lights), wiring, aluminum
sump guards, brackets, etc. Can't find a place like that today.
Rich/slow old poop
*sigh* Nostalgia just isn't what it used to be.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:37:20 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe
Ok, lets start over...
20 HP was a descriptive statement. 48 WHP was for the true-dual exhaust. I
do not yet have exact numbers for the downpipe. I am reasonably confident
that 48 will come from a downpipe and cat-back but there has been some
discussion about whether the stock cat-back is all that bad so right now I
will not make that statement. I think everyone agrees that stock cat-back is way
too heavy.
I don't have the exact weight calculation numbers anymore, those were done
for the true dual system about 8 months ago and I no longer offer the true
dual anyway. I do remember it was a hell of a lot lighter than stock which
is practically a double-pipe (2.5" inside of a 3" pipe) design for heat
reduction purposes.
>From your last email I understood that it was your assumption that
the
faster spool time resulted from removal of pre-cats, which was incorrect.
The other was that the HP gains from the true dual pipe came from weight
loss. Weight loss was accounted for when the tests were performed.
Whom are "our Porsche and Audi" and what is DTM? They have SS downpipes or
headers? Ceramic coated or super expensive alloys made for $200,000 race
cars are not exactly comparing apples to apples here. I was told by a guy
whom works on 2 NASCAR crews and runs an exhaust shop here in Kirkland
that no NASCAR uses SS because it cannot stand up to their specs. Direct words
out of his mouth.
There are key differences between my pipe and Stillen. The 2 sections
coming off from each bank are 2.25". Initially this was done for clearance
near the transfer case (so that the pipe does not rub and bang like the
Stillen). I attribute some of the gains to scavenging effect. We have 3L
engines, that makes each bank about 1.5L. Using a 2.5" pipe for that relatively
small of a volume is complete overkill and the exhaust gas passing through
it cannot maintain velocity. I have been playing around with the idea of
even trying a 2" pipe. The stock downpipe uses 2" piping there, maybe they
were on to something...
The second major difference is in the combination of flows. The collector
used by Stillen is a tiny, cheap, pressed sheet metal collector. Only way
I could have real numbers was if I cut one apart and they cost too much
for that. However, if you look closely at their collector, it is VERY
restrictive through about 1" distance when it does the actual combination of
air. I would estimate that the 2 2.5" flows get compressed into a the area
of a 2" circle for a short amount of time. In exhaust flow dynamics any
L-H-L (Low-High-Low) pressures are an absolute killer combination to the
flow. (Note H-L-H is used for muffling and is not quite as bad). The collector
used by the Stillen pipe certainly causes L-H-L, I just cant tell for sure
to what degree without dissecting it. My collector is the single most
expensive component of the pipe. It is not a pressed sheet metal shape,
its a real V collector. It does not crimp down on the flow and avoids the L-H-L
condition caused by the Stillen.
Reason I do not like to use Stainless is because #1 a number of key
components are ether unavailable (like my special collector) or PITA to
get in SS. #2 is SS pipe costs about 2.5 times more because nobody here in
the NW (and yes guys, we get the most rainfall here) uses SS and many
parts have to be special-ordered.
Only reason I put up an SS test pipe was because someone asked about one
and the closest competitor I could find wanted $99 for it. Yea, you want a
17" piece of pipe for $50, sure I will sell it, I will even make it shiny.
Matter of fact, if you got the money for it I will make an SS DP too, just
the cost will reflect the materials. I only make about $100-120 on these and
spend about 5-6 hours on each. I hope that as I get some more tools etc
that time will go down because as of now its certainly not worth it.
Account for mistakes, wear on tools, consumable tools like cutting discs
and my profit is tiny.
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 20:41:09 -0500
From: Dennis Ninneman <
dninneman@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: removing a Stillen downpipe - Rant for those with extra time
I don't know how old you are, but I've been through this (HP claims for
the chrome dipsticks) on more than one occasion. Not to suggest that
Tysons dp has no performance gain. I've been a hot rodder since the
60s,
modifying cars through the 70s ...... back in it in the 90s.
Worked
Formula 1, CART. Rallied, autocrossed, drag raced. Worked
for two car
companies ........ GM Research. Rebuilt Detroit iron,
carburetors,
suspensions, bodies. Member of SCCA, ISCA.
The world is full of well
intentioned people standing behind what they truly
believe are great
products. They have testimonials from individuals
that will swear up
and down that Mario Andretti uses it in his personal
vehicles. Sorry, I
for one need independent, blinded tests using
objective measures. I
tell my son ........ with his VR4 ....... to be
just as careful. This
is not to say EVERYTHING that Tyson and Erik say
are Gospel. However,
the three of you must be honest with
yourselves by asking what does the
rest of this board have other than our
words to prove what we say?
That said ........... Tysons products may very well be wonderful
......... few of us on this board know first hand. Secondly, I'm a
relative new comer to the board. Great community of what appears to be
mature, race experienced 3S advocates with other than just a drag race
mentality. One thing that would ruin this board is
advertising. I'm
assuming this was built for advocacy not advertising
ones products
......... either directly or indirectly through friends.
Dennis -==- Philly
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:06:50 -0500
From: "Planet" <
planet.j@sympatico.ca>
Subject:
Team3S: Exhaust questions. What should I get?
Lots of talk about downpipes. Still learning here, my guess is the section
from exhaust manifold to the cat. Someone want to correct me if I am
wrong.
Question:
My flex pipe is really leaking causing my check engine light(correct me if
I'm wrong, I figured this from the manual). The sound it is making is okay
with me but it will only get worse. Is it true that since the pipe is
leaking, it causes the oxygen sensor to pick up wrong readings and thus it
may increase/decrease the fuel/air ratio?
What are my options to fix this. I'm told by a couple mechanics I cant just
replace the flex section but the whole pipe. Someone posted they just
replaced the flex section. I figured why can't they just weld one in. I
priced the stock pipe from manifold to cat at $450 CDN. Is there an
aftermarket pipe that doesn't cost this much? I have already spent $3500 in the
last month making this car road worthy. I would love a cheap but good
solution. Also, there are a lot of performance car part places around
here, so I could probably get somewhere to order me one. If there is
another option instead of the stock pipe, what is the brand/made/model/number or
what ever I could use to identify it.
Thanks
Jason (new member)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:23:06 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Exhaust questions. What should I get?
Lots of talk about downpipes. Still learning here, my guess is the section
from exhaust manifold to the cat. Someone want to correct me if I am
wrong.
**** Yea its in there but there is a bit more to it than that. If you have
a turbo model the setup goes like so. Engine-header-turbo-O2 housing. Then
in the front it goes right to the downpipe and in the rear there is a
precat then the downpipe. The rear uses a combination pre-cat/O2 housing
piece that sits vertical. Not 100% sure on N/A's but I think its the same minus
the turbo. If you are under your car, its the forward-most horizontal
piece of pipe.
Question:
My flex pipe is really leaking causing my check engine light(correct me if
I'm wrong, I figured this from the manual).
***** If you have a leak before an O2 sensor, you will throw a CE light,
that is right. Are you just assuming that the flex section is broken or
have you felt it? If you are not sure, I would suggest confirming it.
Other things crack too. The front header is notorious.
The sound it is making is okay
with me but it will only get worse. Is it
true that since the pipe is leaking, it causes the oxygen sensor to pick
up wrong readings and thus it may increase/decrease the fuel/air ratio?
***** O2 is ignored under Wide Open Throttle (WOT) and at some other
situations, but yes cruising around it will run rich and kill your fuel
ratio and efficiency. Furthermore you will backfire and hear *PUTT* *PUTT*
sounds.
What are my options to fix this. I'm told by a couple mechanics I cant just
replace the flex section but the whole pipe. Someone posted they just
replaced the flex section. I figured why can't they just weld one
in.
***** They could. Take it to a custom muffler shop and tell them exactly
what you want done. They will do it. Problem is, flex section of the stock
length (we are talking about the rear one, right?) is pricey. I would not
be surprised at a $100+ (US, I don't know what the exchange rate is
anymore) repair bill. Your only options are to replace or repair.
I priced the stock pipe from manifold to cat at $450 CDN. Is there an
aftermarket pipe that doesn't cost this much?
***** Again, what is that in US $ and what trim level car do you have?
Check
www.3si.org and look in the
"tuners" section. Plenty of choices there. Feel free to browse my site too (its
not on their list yet).
I have already spent $3500 in
the last month making this car road
worthy. I would love a cheap but good solution. Also, there are a lot of
performance car part places around here, so I could probably get somewhere to
order me one.
***** Order it from the website that makes the pipe. Other than Stillen I
think all pipes are made in-shop.
If there is another
option instead of the stock pipe, what is the
brand/made/model/number or what ever I could use to identify it.
Thanks
Jason (new member)
***** Hope that helps,
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:59:16 -0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Rubbing noise
Why in the world would they use an on-the-car method of balancing... I
never understood that whatsoever... That is hell on your
Vicious
Coupling... Heh...Especially if any speed whatsoever is
involved (I
would imagine a decent amount of speed be needed to balance a
tire on the car, just as it is done off the car...) To me, that's
just as bad as towing the vehicle with two wheels in the "sling" and two
wheels on the ground... Personally, I'd say you are lucky the Vicious Coupling
is still operable...
- -Cody
'93 3000GT SL
'91 Talon AWD
- -----Original Message-----
From: Riyan Mynuddin
Sent: Sunday,
December 01, 2002 12:12 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rubbing noise
I didn't warn then about the AWD since from what I've seen, wheel balancing
is generally done off the car with a separate machine. So I thought that's
what they would do too. But I happened to walk over when they were almost
done. 2 wheels on the ground and two spinning in the air. As they were
doing whatever "on-car method" for balancing, I heard a loud rubbing noise. This
noise sounded different than the quiet rubbing noise from after hitting
the mountain. This rubbing was almost loud enough to call a grinding
noise. While they were balancing the last couple wheels I asked them "is
that noise something to worry about?" ... as I thought to myself what the
hell are they doing??? And the employee at the shop said oh yeah...
your LSD is just a little bit "unhappy" since it wants to spin 4 at the
same time, but it's nothing to worry about.
Well, he sounded so sure about it that I did believe him. I thought maybe
since it's a short period of time, no biggie. Car handled just fine on the
way home too. Plus, these guys have been in business forever. Their prices
reflect it too. No hurry-it-up "flat rate" alignments here. They only did
this two wheels in the air thing for a short period of time. Less than 2 minutes
of spinning and verifying per wheel = about 5 to 6 minutes of running the
car like that.
So what do I do next? Is 5 to 6 minutes enough to hurt anything? Should I
just forget about it, or should I ask the local mitsu dealer to check the
AWD system and bill the alignment shop for it? If anyone cares to give me
a hand in getting started, I'd appreciate that. But for everyone else's
sake, be sure to keep any responses that lack technical info off the list.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:35:12 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. Kryjevski" <
abk4@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: Firestone Firehawk SZ50 any good?
Hello:
I am considering replacing rear tires on my 92 R/T (f.w.d.). From what
Tirerack.com survey says Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP appears to be the best
(traction, wear, even noise and ride comfort). Does anybody have any
experience with these? The archive search gave one positive opinion, but
would like to hear more, for the Firestone brandname scares me somewhat...
Currently I have Goodyear Eagle GS-C on the front and (worn) Falken
Ziex-502 on the rear (all 275/40 17). Can anybody compare these with
Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP?
Finally, does anybody ever care how much different tires weigh? Does it
have any tangible influence on the performance?
Thank you.
Andrei Kryjevski.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 02:17:01 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Firestone Firehawk SZ50 any good?
Andrei,
I prefer Pirelli P-Zero as they have saved my life and my car
more times than I care to count (great traction). Yes they are
expensive but they last me 30,000 miles and that is unheard of for a tire
with a treadwear of 140. They fit me as I do not drive like a banshee
through puddles so do not need a full wet tread tire. So that is all
I will suggest.
A tire weighs about 25 pounds for my 245/40/18
as well as the 255/45/17 track tires (Yokohama A-032). The only
thing this affects is the amount that is slung round and round in order to
get up to speed or the amount to stop from slinging when slowing
down. Same with the wheel and rotor, etc. It all slings round
and round. But when a car weighs 4,000 pounds (3,850 with 200 pound
driver easily) then the 100 pounds in tires is so insignificant that it makes no
difference in total weight. Is there a difference when slung round and
round? Yep.
A 255/17 tire will perform better (faster
acceleration) than a big fat 275/18 tire. Decelerating though the
wider tire may have more grip and traction but in a drag race you only
want to go fast. In a road race you want to go fast, accelerate well, but
also decelerate quickly. The "Sport Compact Car" did a test a year ago or
so of three wheel/tire combos (16", 17", and 18") as well as acceleration
tests/lap times at I think either Buttonwillow or a track like that.
The 17" combo did best.
So if you are a maniac on the country
roads then get a tire with grip. If you are a salesman logging
thousands of miles per month then get the long life one. I can't say
anything about the Firehawk as I have never used one so all I can give are
points about my tires but ask more questions if you want.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 currently with 235/45/17 Blizzak snow tires
- -----Original Message-----
From: A. Kryjevski
Sent: Monday,
December 02, 2002 01:35
I am considering replacing rear tires on my 92 R/T (f.w.d.). From what
Tirerack.com survey says Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP appears to be the best
(traction, wear, even noise and ride comfort). Does anybody have any
experience with these? The archive search gave one positive opinion, but
would like to hear more, for the Firestone brandname scares me somewhat...
Currently I have Goodyear Eagle GS-C on the front and (worn) Falken
Ziex-502 on the rear (all 275/40 17). Can anybody compare these with
Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP?
Finally, does anybody ever care how much different tires weigh? Does it
have any tangible influence on the performance?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:43:25 -0800
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Exhaust questions. What should I get?
I would consider ordering a new down pipe and replacing the whole
thing. I generally don't like to weld new exhaust parts to old
one. I figure that if part of the old one has corroded and worn a
hole then the rest of the exhaust part is on its last leg too.
You will also be able to save money on the install. Replacing the
down pipe is easy and can be done with relative ease. 4 bolts on the
front and middle and 2 nut/bolt combinations at the main cat.
Get an estimate from a muffler shop and then check prices for a whole new
one online. Tigran gave some good links for known performance parts
vendors that sell good down pipes. I'll bet the prices will be very
close after including labor.
Doug
92 Stealth RT TT
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:29:42 -0600
From: "Richard Fennell" <
realmstl@charter.net>
Subject: Fw:
Team3S: Firestone Firehawk SZ50 any good?
I've got the SZ50's on my Conquest and am very happy with them. The
grip in dry and wet is pretty good. They seem to be lasting a long
time, but I don't race this car. The tires ride nice and I don't notice
any road noise. For the price, I'd get another set.
I wouldn't worry about tire weights unless you were in all out
racing. If that was the case, you wouldn't be looking at the
SZ50's.
Rich
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Kryjevski" <
abk4@u.washington.edu>
Sent:
Monday, December 02, 2002 12:35 AM
Subject: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk SZ50
any good?
> Hello:
>
> I am considering replacing rear tires on my 92
R/T (f.w.d.). From what
> Tirerack.com survey says Firestone Firehawk
SZ50 EP appears to be the
> best (traction, wear, even noise and ride
comfort). Does anybody have
> any experience with these? The archive
search gave one positive
> opinion, but would like to hear more, for the
Firestone brandname
> scares me somewhat...
>
> Currently I
have Goodyear Eagle GS-C on the front and (worn)
> Falken Ziex-502 on the
rear (all 275/40 17). Can anybody
> compare these with Firestone Firehawk
SZ50 EP?
>
> Finally, does anybody ever care how much different
tires weigh?
> Does it have any tangible influence on the
performance?
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#14
**************************************