Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Saturday, November 16 2002 Volume
02 : Number 001
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At 04:14 PM 11/15/02 -0800, Dean Benz wrote:
>> I never trail
brake, because I turn in way early immediately after
>straight line
braking, and get the power on where RWD cars are trail
>braking. Just
like Chuck taught me.
>
>Can you explain this a bit more? Normally
turning in early is a
>guarantee that you will not be able to power
through the apex to the
>exit unless you over brake.
Sure. On a typical late apex corner (Turn 1 at MidAmerica, Turn 1 at
Blackhawk, etc.), I straight line brake (just a big stab these days, no
longer a stand-on-the binders like I used to do), lift, turn in WAY before
the apex, and hammer the throttle. I go through the apex under full power.
The AWD grabs and pulls me through.
I am NOT early apexing the turn. That is something completely different,
and tends to put you off in the grass. I am on the same line as a late
apex, but I am under power. It's called "carrying speed" or some such.
Essentially, I am under full power where all the RWD cars are still trail
braking. I can gobble up a 911 or a Z06 this way, because they cannot get back
on the power as fast as we can. They suffer from power oversteer
where our cars STICK. I just LOVE AWD.
It takes a great instructor to get a driver to this point. I don't
recommend it for rookies. Instead, take the classic line for a few events,
and get some seat time. Then, someday, sign up for instructions with our
own Chuck Willis. He'll show you how it's done.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:47:50 -0800
From: "BlackLight" <
BlackLight@planetice.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Anyone here done the Accell coil mod?
Search for it on 3Si, Omnip_1 has a write-up on his website with photos I
believe.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Shawn Keren
Sent: Friday, November
15, 2002 7:19 AM
Subject: Team3S: Anyone here done the Accell coil mod?
I've got three Accell Super coils, part # 140017, coming today from Summit
Racing. I'm planning on installing them in my VR4 tomorrow. Has anyone
here done this mod already? Is there anything that I should watch out for
or any warnings that you might have? Maybe some wiring hints or help?
Thanks in advance
Regards,
Shawn Keren
Red '92 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:49:50 -0800
From: "BlackLight" <
BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Anyone here done the Accell coil mod?
Thanks Jeff, sorry, I missed your post *rolleyes*
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lucius
Sent: Friday, November
15, 2002 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anyone here done the Accell coil
mod?
Adam Fortier and Allan Bautista have some write-ups and tips on installing
aftermarket coils in our cars.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:35:33 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Anyone here done the Accell coil mod?
Thanks all, I didn't look far enough earlier. I printed out Allan
Bautista's info a little while ago. Thanks for your help.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "BlackLight" <
BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Sent:
Friday, November 15, 2002 7:49 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Anyone here done the
Accell coil mod?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:31:40 -0800
From: "Dean Benz" <
dbenz@vchillclimb.org>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Trail braking & tire chunking(was: Open Track
Troubles)
I understand what you mean now Rich. You caught me with your use of the
word "early". I usually associate early with the whole turn and/or where
the car apexes or gets closest to the inside of the track in a corner. If
you turn in early, you usually apex early, and exit or track out early
which we both agree most of the time is a real good way to do a little gardening
or worse body work.
What you are describing is a hard turn in late apex turn, and
accelerating/powering though the apex.
All cars can do this to a degree, but AWD cars excel at it. That is why
through most of the 80s and 90s, Audi's Quattro AWD system dominated much
of international motorsports and in '98 was finally banned from FIA
competition as a "unfair advantage". (There is a great book by that name
which talks about those years in great detail but I digress.)
Today, with all the advancements in traction control, and suspensions, much
of that advantage has been eliminated, Audi's own 3 time champion R8s are
rear wheel drive monsters that are so stable the drivers can't even tell
when they lock up a wheel except for the puff of smoke.(Or so I've
heard.)
A VERY GOOD driver, which I am not, with a smooth and skilled right foot in
a modern RWD car can take almost the same line with the same power as an
AWD car. AWD just makes it a lot easier, and in general is more forgiving
than either RWD or FWD at the limit. Actually, there are times when a RWD
can take a different line and use their stronger abilities in throttle steering
to pivot the car and actually outperform an AWD car, but that is a whole
different topic. Don't get me wrong, I love AWD, both my daily driver and
track car are AWD, as were my 2 previous daily drivers, and one previous
track car, but a high powered RWD car in the hands of a skilled driver can be
really scary fast!
In my last example I should not have used the word apex where I did. I
should have just stopped after I said "If done correctly, just as the
brake pads pull away from the disc, the wheel is at the maximum angle for
the turn, and 100% of the available traction is being used to turn the
car". From a pure geometric perspective this might be the apex of the
car's turn, but is likely nowhere near what we normally describe as the
apex of a turn on a track, the point on the inside of the corner that the
car passes closest to. Sorry for the confusion.
Trail braking is completely compatible with the way you are describing your
cornering and will make you even faster when done correctly.
Trail braking is about carrying your speed further into the corner, braking
later, braking less, and being able to turn in harder by controlling the
car's weight shift during the transition from braking to turning. You can
still put the power on in the same place you describe, you just get to
that point in the corner faster than someone who straight line brakes. But, just
like powering through the apex, it takes practice, patience, and a good
instructor doesn't hurt to learn to do it well.
- -Dean (What no tire section?) Benz
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 01:35:07 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: how long do new stock motor-mounts last
Bill,
I received a response from Steve Burrows at 3SX Performance,
www.3sxperformance.com, and he
said, "If they start to walk on you we will definitely stake them for you
as we are currently doing, and naturally if it ruined the mount bushing we
would replace it."
Good customer service. I have not had any problem with mine in the
last 10,000 miles of highway and "spirited" driving and don't foresee any
problems but they are willing to stand behind their product which is
fantastic.
- --Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bill vp
Sent: Thursday, November
14, 2002 18:03
I have 15G's, exhaust, fuel mods, etc. I need some new motor mounts
but am leery of the 3sx ones because of people on 3si complaining about
the polyurethane "walking" out over (short periods of) time. How
long will new stock motor-mounts last with the power that I have?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:00:01 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
which bearings are accessible when oil pan is dropped?
That would be very helpful. Any info would be nice at this point. Today
after I got home I listened closely to my engine. I thought that I could
hear a ticking noise on the bottom end of the engine. It seems to only be
audible when idling (RPM below 1000). I also have lifter tick from the
top, and this is a different tick that that I hear from the bottom. Hopefully
it's not rod knock or piston slap. I'll probably buy an automotive
stethoscope and try to figure out what's up here.
- ---------->
"fastmax" wrote:
I can forward the messages to you if you wish.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:01:18 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S:
driveshaft install
when my car was at satan, they said there's a lash in at least two of the
three pieces of my driveshaft. I could just replace the bearings but the
shaft is rusty, heavy, and stock. I think it's time for a new one. Can I
do this myself?
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:31:30 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
driveshaft install
BTW, the driveshaft that I have my eyes on is the PST one-piece CFDS.
anyone think there's a problem with switching from a 3-piece to a
1-piece?
------------------------------
At 10:31 PM 11/15/02 -0800, Dean Benz wrote:
>I understand what you
mean now Rich. <snip>
>What you are describing is a hard turn in
late apex turn, and
>accelerating/powering though the apex. All cars can
do this to a
>degree, but AWD cars excel at it.
<snip> But, just
like powering through the apex, it takes
>practice, patience, and a good
instructor doesn't hurt to
>learn to do it well.
I don't recommend either technique for rookies.
Trail braking into a corner for a rookie usually means "Oh shit, I'm going
too fast," as they brake past the apex and off into the grass. It is far,
far better for a rookie to learn straight line braking, proper turn in
points, and proper lines.
In fact, it is of utmost importance to learn how to brake properly. I was
one of those drivers who was able to keep up with the "big boys" because I
could outbrake them. I was standing on the brakes until the ABS chattered.
This cost me untold worn out brake pads, boiled fluid, and hours trackside
fiddling with my brakes. Our cars -- especially with Big Reds -- have
incomparable stopping power, but they sure wear down fast if braking is
done improperly.
Learning how to make "a hard turn in late apex," as you put it, requires
proper instruction. First, you must learn proper braking. Second, you have
to be convinced that you can make it through the corner at higher speeds
than you ever tried before. In my case, it took two instructors: Our own
Chuck Willis demonstrated the technique to me at Heartland Park, so I knew
it was possible for our cars to carry that kind of speed through a corner.
But it didn't "take" until another instructor kept reassuring me, "the car
will stick." I regard the whole thing as an epiphany, and I wonder what
other fast driving secrets await. Trail braking perhaps?
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
My '93 VR-4 is leaking oil. It only happens when the engine is
running. The drips are coming from about 18" inboard of the passenger side
front wheel and the drops of oil are dripping about 1 every 8
seconds. I was wondering if this could be the infamous transfer case
leak? Any word on the recall?
Anyone know of a shop in the Phoenix area that is familiar with our
cars?
Thanks,
Damien
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 11:44:09 -0700
From: "Moe Prasad" <
mprasad@uswest.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: driveshaft install
Everything is easy except for the flange that has to be swapped in the
back.
You will need a very good impact wrench to take it off. What we did
was went to the Auto Zone and borrowed their electric impact wrench and
that did the trick. We did have a hard time to get them to lend it
us but they finally gave in.
Rgds
Moe
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Sent: Saturday,
November 16, 2002 1:31 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: driveshaft install
> BTW, the driveshaft that I have my eyes on is the PST one-piece
CFDS.
>
>
http://www.pstds.com/carbonfiber.cfm>
>
anyone think there's a problem with switching from a 3-piece to a
>
1-piece?
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:33:38 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S:
spinning bearing? piston slap? anyone know a good rebuilder? [long]
Warning: this post is lined with questions!! :)
This is exactly what I was worried about. How sure are you? Satan told me
that the oil pressure warning switches are quite unreliable, while the
engine itself is quite robust and it's "most likely okay". Being the
service dept. manager, you'd expect him to want to scare me rather than
assure me that my car is okay. Maybe he forgot that it has 188k miles on it. The
new oil pressure warning switch should go in today or tomorrow. The tick
that I hear below 1000 rpm is not a rhythmic tick like my lifter tick is.
It has somewhat of a rhythm, but sometimes it "misses ticks". You know
what I mean? It's also very quiet and very hard to hear. Is this what an
early spinning bearing sounds like? Is there anything else at the bottom
end of the engine that could make a sound like this? From what I've heard,
a "spun" bearing is a louder knock that gets louder as RPM increases. This
ones *seems* to disappear after 1K rpm. But perhaps this is what the early
stages are.
It's difficult to put my finger on it because it could even be an accessory
on the lower side or something ticking at the top end of the engine that
happens to be echoing all the way to the bottom. An automotive stethoscope
will go on the oil pan before I remove it. I'll see if I can covert that
to a .WAV file or something. Either way, it's time to garage the car a little
longer. I'll drop the oil pan and see what I find. Dropping oil pan
requires removal of downpipe... and I need to increase air flow in the
rear pre-cat
:) so might as well kill two with one stone. With all
these problems, I've considered selling the car and starting over with
another stealth/vr4. Well, then I'd probably have just another can of
worms. And I'm already past that point of selling my car since I have around 40
labor hours, $2000 in
upg+60k, $1000 in fuel and electrical, and almost
$1400 in the full
upg+exhaust
system from dynamic racing. I'm going to
take this slowly and fix it up.
suggestions? ideas? I am looking for an engine rebuilder now because if I
actually need new bearings then I might as well get new pistons and an
overbore too. Even if it turns out that I don't need a rebuild, having
someone in my rolodex that truly knows the inside of a vr4 engine and how
to rebuild it the right way is a nice thing to have. As far as their pricing
goes, I'm not going to say that I'll throw my wallet at them. But I will
say that I don't want any "bargain"... "coupon deal" work. I want this to
be done right, and I will indeed pay good money for proven good work. I
live in Sunnyvale...40 miles south of San Francisco. Any rec's will be taken
seriously. Any distance up to 100 to 150 miles is acceptable. I'd even
consider taking the car farther away if the rebuilder has lots of
references, particularly with rebuilding 6G72 blocks.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
.... and I can't drive it...
again?? :(
P.S. one more idea I have is to remove one spark plug at a time and see if
the noise changes at all as each one is removed. If the noise changes for
a specific cylinder, then that would mean that the noise is more likely to
be piston slap in that cylinder, since if you remove the compression from
a cylinder then piston slap is reduced or eliminated.
Here's an article on piston slap:
"STNCOLDBK" wrote:
hate to say this but your losing a pump but most likely a rod or main
bearing catch it early you just have to change the bearings but the tick
you hear is a bearing spinning repair it before you have to replace the
crank
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:46:10 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: spinning bearing? piston slap? anyone know a good rebuilder?
[long]
Check to see if its your throwout bearing. In idle push the clutch in all
the way, listen, then let it go. See if the sound is different with clutch
it or clutch out.
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:53:38 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
spinning bearing? piston slap? anyone know a good rebuilder? [long]
Push clutch in and out when idling in neutral, or driving slow in first
gear?
- -------------------->
"Tyson" wrote:
Check to see if its your throwout bearing.
- ----------->
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:24:18 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: spinning bearing? piston slap? anyone know a good rebuilder?
[long]
Doesn't matter. I think you would be able to hear it better if you were
stopped. Tranny in neutral, see if having clutch in or clutch out makes a
difference with the noise.
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:57:29 -0500
From: "Bill vp" <
billvp@highstream.net>
Subject:
Team3S: help adjusting TPS please
ok, on the cd manual it says (13-34) to put a 0.65mm feeler gauge between
the fixed SAS and the throttle lever
first of all, what is a feeler gauge?
second, what is the SAS and throttle lever, is that where the little hammer
like thing hits the screw looking thing when the car isn't being
accelerated at all? I mean when you are idling they are touching, but if
you push the gas does a gap appear between them then? I don't know how to
describe it too well, but hopefully somebody will get what i mean
is there anything else I need to know ... it says to check voltages and
keep turning clockwise more and more, etc
when I put it on initially (the tps) do I just sit it in place, or do i
move the throttle cable any (which moves the little copper colored markers
... which move the tps things on the inside)?
because I just sort of put it in and screwed it in a little more clockwise
than 12:00
now my isc readings on the pocketlogger never go below 60??!?
how could that affect it?
it's reading 11% (tps on pocketlogger) at idle, and goes up to 94% full
throttle; it seems like it may be a little slow getting there though, but
I didn't try it out too much ... I may have imagined that.
thanks for any help
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:14:59 EST
From:
Rod2414738@aol.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
ECU update (car started the first time but not since)
I'm a recent owner of a '93 Stealth TT, so I might be missing something
here,
but in my electrical engineering experience, replacing leaking
capacitors, if
found quickly, can fix problems. Yes, if let go for too
long, the
electrolyte can corrode through traces. However, a capacitor
whose
Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR) has changed due to losing
electrolyte and
therefore not shunting noise to ground or not allowing a
clock signal to pass
at full amplitude can cause problems by itself long
before damage to the
board occurs, especially on a well-postcoated
board.
- -Rod
'93 Stealth TT
> There is a huge difference between rebuilding a working and a non
> working ECU The faults are caused by the leakage from the
capacitors
> so as I stated before, replacing the capacitors only,
will never fix
> it.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:50:28 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
spinning bearing? piston slap? anyone know a good rebuilder? [long]
Piston slap is often a start up condition --- after the car warms up a
little the noise goes away. The larger clearances required for forged
pistons can
cause slap that goes away as the pistons expand upon
heating.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:24:18 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Accel Coil Mod
Well, I just finished adding the Accell Super Coils to my VR4. WOW, more
responsive on low end, the car runs and idles smoother and what I thought
might be spark blowout around 5000 RPM on WOT seems to be gone.
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V2
#1
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