Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Friday, November 15
2002 Volume 01 : Number 999
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:57:06 -0800
From: "Haury, Charles" <
CHaury@GOLDER.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Air-Conditioner Display not Working - 92 vr4
I have been lurking (new to the list) and have learned quite a bit over the
last couple of weeks. The question I have is that the LED display is
not working on the auto air-conditioner on my 92 vr4. It is only the
display, the heater and air conditioning work fine. Any ideas? Maybe
a separate fuse that has blown which could be replaced? I think I
recall a post on a similar problem a couple of weeks ago but did not see a
solution proposed.
Thanks much,
Charlie
92 vr4
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:02:55 -0500
From: "Bill vp" <
billvp@highstream.net>
Subject:
Team3S: how long do new stock motor-mounts last
I have 15G's, exhaust, fuel mods, etc. I need some new motor mounts
but am leery of the 3sx ones because of people on 3si complaining about
the polyurethane "walking" out over (short periods of) time. How
long will new stock motor-mounts last with the power that I have?
thanks,
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:25:48 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S: EGT
tap, oil pressure question, A/F question :)
just finished my S-AFC, ARM1, MBC, turbo meter, and fuel pressure meter
install last night. still waiting to do the fuel pump hotwire. I started
up and drove around awhile. The car seems to be running okay. With the
correction factor, it runs red "very lean" at idle (still idles smooth,
though--is this okay?), cycles between the 5 middle LEDs at cruise and
medium-throttle, only hitting blue "very rich" shortly if I punch the gas
suddenly. This looks okay to me. Does it sound right to you guys? I
haven't cranked up the boost on the MBC yet since it's going to be
difficult to get an absolute figure based on this little jumpy A/F meter.
Especially because I only have one of them (wired to rear bank since
that's where the lean condition usually starts). I'm thinking about
getting a couple EGT gauges to tune more precisely (and safely).
Since I have the 93 fed-spec model, I only have one pair of o2 sensors.
Stillen DP o2 sensor holes after the pre-cats were plugged with the
provided stillen caps. How about if I remove those caps and put in EGT
sensors. Would EGT still be accurate all the way down there? And if I do this,
I'd need to know the o2 sensor thread diameter so that I'd know whether
EGT sensor would fit straight it, or if I'd need to buy a couple reducer.
Anyone know what that thread size is?
My other question is that I talked to someone about getting an aftermarket
oil pressure gauge, and he recommended getting some kind of "sandwich"
adapter that goes between the oil filter itself and the filter mounting
point. This would be easier, more readily reversible, and it would locate
the sensor farther from the oil pump, which means that the sensor would
last longer (we all know how high the burst pressure can be on a cold
start). Does anyone know if these sandwich adapters are sold for our cars,
and where I'd get them?
Thanks,
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
up and running, finally!
S-AFC,450cc injectors--cleaned and
balanced,ARM1,MBC,stillen dp,atr singleshot catback,improved rear pre-cat
and main cat,egr block-off,ek2 fuel rail mod
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:52:24 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: EGT tap, oil pressure question, A/F question :)
> Would EGT still be accurate all the way down there?
I have both of mine down there and they read just fine. Lower temps
than before the turbo, but if you know what the baseline is, you can get
an idea of how she's running. 700C max with proper fuel @14psi, 760C max
when a little lean @14psi, 550-600 when cruising at 80 in 6th. <300
when idling.
> And if I do this, I'd need to know the o2 sensor
> thread
diameter
M18x1.5, IIRC. Same as the larger spark plugs.
> My other question is that I talked to someone about getting
> an
aftermarket oil pressure gauge, and he recommended getting
> some kind of
"sandwich" adapter that goes between the oil
> filter itself and the
filter mounting
> point. <...> Does anyone know if these sandwich
adapters
> are sold for our cars, and where I'd get them?
That's how I mounted my oil temp and pressure sensors. I have
pictures, but haven't had time to make the web page yet. I got mine
here:
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/filtmt.htm
#PER186 M20x1.5 for a whole $25. I bought a couple of brass bushings
to mount the sensors and then hacked it up a bit with my drill press to
make it a "pass through" adapter.
- --Erik
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:51:55 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: how long do new stock motor-mounts last
Well if my 3SX mounts start to "creep" then I'm sure I will let Steve know
and get them replaced. My stock ones lasted just shy of 100,000
miles so if these last half that long (50k) I will be pleased. If
they last a quarter that long (25k) then I'll also be happy and will probably be
near the break-even point on performance obtained from effort/money put in
to their installation. Honestly, those who do not have them really
do not know what you are missing. And I'm sure 3SX would press them
in again for you or replace them. I have not taken this up with them but I
will now. Thanks.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 at 105k with 3SX polyurethane motor mounts all
around
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bill vp
Sent: Thursday, November
14, 2002 18:03
I have 15G's, exhaust, fuel mods, etc. I need some new motor mounts
but am leery of the 3sx ones because of people on 3si complaining about
the polyurethane "walking" out over (short periods of) time. How
long will new stock motor-mounts last with the power that I have?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:05:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Roger Ludwig <
yiotta@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
how long do new stock motor-mounts last
Why do you say we don't know what we are missing?
What do Steve's mounts
do for ya?
Roger L
F15DOC
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:20:54 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: how long do new stock motor-mounts last
Roger,
Solid motor mounts transmit more oomph to the driveline
instead of to the engine's own movement. If the engine twists when
you are giving it shots of WOT then if it is solidly connected to the car
the engine can no longer twist but instead transmits that through to the
driveline (that is my understanding at least).
So the slop that
used to be taken up with the engine moving around (like cruising in 5th
gear at 60 mph and you get on the throttle 3/4 to WOT and then left off
and then get back on I could feel the engine move or tell that the power
was not being transmitted through to the rest of the components.
With the solid motor mounts when I get on the throttle there is no twisting of
the engine and the car instantly accelerates instead of the engine
accelerating in the mushy (read: dead) motor mounts until they were maxed
out and THEN transmitting power through to the driveline.
I have
shown this to a number of individuals. Normally the engine shakes front to
back when we start out engines. Mine really does not. It sits quite
still. And when shutting off the engine the same thing - normally it
quivers front to back. Mine, again, does not. This means
performance. This also means you feel it more. I don't mind that
though. It really is not as rough as people make it out to be.
At cruising it is almost not noticeable and at idle I think it is a good
feeling and keeps me connected with the car.
I used to be able
to start up in 2nd gear easily (in a 6-speed) but now I get some vibration
like the car is going to die or I don't have enough gas on it but this is just
how much slop the engine used to absorb and how much it is passing through
now. I'm not sure if Erik Gross could feel this when I took him for
a test drive and started in second gear but he got to see the engine start
and stop and can probably indicate how much it moves (I am usually in the car
and have a bad angle to see the engine).
Now this also
means that the driveshaft hangers going to the rear are taking more vibration
and will need upgraded if not just replaced soon and if I ever need to do
a timing belt again then lifting the engine out will be one mo-fo (as the
mechanic said) since I can probably lift up the car simply by putting an
engine pulling harness on the engine (it is THAT solidly attached to the
car). Sometimes, the mechanic said, they just lift up the engine in the
mounts and this is enough play to work on things. Not now he
said. Oh well. That's what you get for the performance of
them.
I related it to the fact that our V6 purrs like a kitten
when it doesn't have the ticking of the engine going on. Now when I
accelerate in second or third gear from about 10-20 mph on up to 50-60 mph
it sounds (inside the cabin) and feels more like a typical V8. The exhaust
doesn't sound like a V8 but most of those cars I have been in (my friend's
2000 Trans-Am non-Ram Air) feels the same now as mine. To me it is a
good change. Not everyone will like it though. It took my wife
about 12 seconds when I got the car back to notice. She said, "Why is it
running so rough?" Nuf' said.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Ludwig
Sent: Thursday,
November 14, 2002 20:05
Why do you say we don't know what we are missing?
What do Steve's mounts
do for ya?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:51:57 -0500
From: "David, Jon (J)" <
JDavid@dow.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
removal of ALL MAS honeycombs WITHOUT causing damage (very long)
**Here's my first reply since joining the list, so go easy on me.** Not
only did I buy my 92 VR-4 because it's a great car, but also because it's
the most hi-tech for the price. Being a technician by trade I too will be
looking for new ways to better old parts. (Sometimes just to see if they
would work) Before gutting my MAS I needed proof of improvement (what would it
be like without the restriction?) I used a second MAS in front of and
going into the working MAS and did some hard test-driving, then I removed
the extra MAS and ran the same tests. I used the "feel" method of testing.
(Will know for sure when my data logger gets here next week) I think it only
improved the top end a little with less restriction; improvement could be
had only if drivable after mod. My question... Do you think there is a way
to have two air cleaners with two MAS's, one for each turbo tube. This was
my idea for freeing up the restriction of air though the MAS (reduce
restriction by ½) I will be working on multiplying or dividing the signal, which
ever is needed. Any help or thoughts in this area would be appreciated.
Thanks
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:32:03 -0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: FS: '93 - '99 3000GT SL
is for sale...
few things: Spoiler was removed - actually, stolen, and the mounts are
still on the trunk... can most likely be removed entirely and repainted
for very cheap, or if need be, I can get another APR spoiler to replace
the one that was stolen...
Car is next to gutted interior, it has Forza's, and that's about it...
Other than that, as you see it is how it is being sold right now...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:30:40 -0500
From: Dennis Ninneman <
dninneman@comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Open Track Troubles
when did they stop making KD's?? I just bought a set for my VR4.
Nothing said about discontinuing. Supposedly a new tread pattern
for
the KDWs.
Dennis -==- Philly
Zobel, Kurt wrote:
>I've used my BFG KDW (don't make KD anymore) for 3 morning track
>sessions and for a whole day at Fontana. Have to be a little careful
>not to overdrive, but they have held up well, no chunking
anywhere.
>
>I am also adamant about straight line braking. Trying
to trail brake in
>a heavy car can lead to chunking. Brake, then turn.
Take what the car
>will give you even if it means altering what you
'think' is the perfect
>line and style.
>
>Chunking seems
mostly to occur with low air pressure and overdriving.
>Make sure you
warm them up a few laps. Way overpressure and overdriving
>can do it too.
Sounds like you really should advance to track tires,
>Kumho, Toyo,
Hoosier.
>
>IMHO, Kurt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:37:27 -0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Open Track Troubles
KD's are still available...
Sport Compact Car just had a great comparison between them, the Kumho MX's
and Michelin Pilot Sports... Overall, the KD's took first, Kumho's
second, and Sports were last...
This is in handling conditions and road course conditions...
- -Cody
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Ninneman
Sent: Thursday,
November 14, 2002 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Open Track Troubles
when did they stop making KD's?? I just bought a set for my VR4.
Nothing said about discontinuing. Supposedly a new tread pattern
for
the KDWs.
Dennis -==- Philly
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:54:06 -0700
From: "Sapphire Platypus" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Coolant light just started coming on
Recently my coolant light (I think that's what the Roman looking building
is
called) has started to come on shortly after starting up my car. The light
usually comes on when I back off the throttle while still in gear (while
still moving), and stays on until I press on the throttle again. The only
weird part is that the light is only coming on like that while the car is
cold, once it heats up to normal operating range (Just a little under halfway on
the gauge) the light stops coming on no matter what I do. What could the
problem be? Thanks, Donald Ashby '93 3000GT VR-4 "Don't drink and park,
accidents cause people!" "They call them fingers, but I've never seen them
fing"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:57:23 -0700
From: "Sapphire Platypus" <
dashbyiii@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Reverse lights not coming on
Recently I had to drive in reverse while it was dark out and I was
surprised to find I have no reverse lights. This is the first time I have
driven in reverse at night since I had my transmission replaced. Could
there be some wiring that the mechanics didn't hook up? I had the work
done under warranty at my local Mitsubishi dealer ship, and I'm very sure that
the lightbulbs didn't burn out. Could anyone explain a way to fix this, I
have both manuals (Body and electrical) but I can't find what I'm looking
for in there, someone please help! Donald Ashby '93 3000GT VR-4 "Don't
drink and park, accidents cause people!" "They call them fingers, but I've never
seen them fing"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:41:28 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Coolant light just started coming on
Your coolant level is at that threshold where it's almost at the low line,
but not quite. Stepping on the gas changes the level relative to the
sensor, fooling it into thinking there's more. When the temp rises, the
coolant expands, yet again fooling the sensor. I'm willing to bet that when
it warms up and the light goes away, if you slam on the brakes, it'll
flash...
Alex
'95 VR4
"remember the time I dropped the keys, but you thought the phone
was ringing?"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:16:53 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
removal of ALL MAS honeycombs WITHOUT causing damage (very long)
Be careful, whatever you do. Take your time if you're going to gut the MAS
because you may want to re-install those honeycombs. And don't do it
unless you have enough upgrades to justify it. Either way, you'll need A/F
meter, S-AFC (or similar) and EGT gauge to tune. Datalogger is VEY helpful
too, but I'd be scaring to play with things with datalogger only. Remember that
you'd be able to check knock sum and O2 voltage (I think) but not EGT. It
can be difficult without EGT. What kind of mods do you have right
now? I think a good way to test whether there's any power gains is by
tuning with and without honeycombs to a G-tech or other type of accelerometer
that will give you a ballpark HP reading. <--- either way you'll haveta
spend money somewhere. Two MASes is a good idea, but I don't see how it
could improve airflow twofold. It would also take two karman sensors and a
custom design... more time and money. Sure thing, I'm the originator of the
post, but even I don't feel that I have enough upgrades to benefit from
gutting MAS.
Here is my current list:
S-AFC,450cc injectors--cleaned and balanced,ARM1,MBC,stillen dp,atr
singleshot catback,improved rear pre-cat and main cat,egr block-off,ek2
fuel rail mod
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:37:29 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Reverse lights not coming on
Hey "Sapphire" (that's so cute! :) ),
The backup light switch is probably disconnected. It mounts on the
transaxle
above the fill plug (at least on the W5MG1). Look at the service
manual (it's
in there!) or my web page below for more info and a picture of
it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:50:09 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: removal of ALL MAS honeycombs WITHOUT causing damage (very
long)
The MAS "honeycombs" are a restriction?
Really! How much? That is, what is the air pressure in the intake hose
right
after the MAS with the "honeycombs" and without them?
Any "proof" of a possible performance improvement will be a measured,
significant, repeatable difference in air pressure in the intake hose. Not
that this makes any practical difference on a turbocharged engine
anyway!
Sorry, "butt dynos" ain't worth shit, and a datalogger does not measure
intake
hose pressure (but should report barometric pressure for you). Plus
retrieving
usable HP/torque values from the RPM-time-drivetrain info is
impractical with
the TMO or PL using the factory CAS (most of the
time).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:18:47 -0800
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Anyone here done the Accell coil mod?
I've got three Accell Super coils, part # 140017, coming today from Summit
Racing. I'm planning on installing them in my VR4 tomorrow. Has anyone
here done this mod already? Is there anything that I should watch out for
or any warnings that you might have? Maybe some wiring hints or help?
Thanks in advance
Regards,
Shawn Keren
Red '92 VR4
------------------------------
Can you shave down used tires?
If not, Dave, it sounds like time for you to get a spare set of wheels and
mount some Yoko AO32R's.
Chuck Willis
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
[mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:33
PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Open Track Troubles
Just overdrove the available air pressures and/or camber you have
available.
BFGs are great autox tires, but they can overheat pretty easy with abuse on
a road course.
Chunking is what happens with tall tread blocks..why racers shave em down
new.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:27:38 -0800
From: Michael Gerhard <
gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Reverse lights not coming on
At 08:57 PM 11/7/02 , you wrote:
>Recently I had to drive in reverse
while it was dark out and I was
>surprised to find I have no reverse
lights.
Wow, this is too weird. I was getting ready to post a similar question. My
reverse lights have ceased to function (I have yet to know when it
happened) and I was getting ready to check the service manuals for hints as
to the cause. The bulbs look okay. I'm wondering if there is a fuse that
might be out or if the switch is out of adjustment. I'm curious as to any
fixes folks have found for non functioning reverse lights.
Thanks.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Michael
A. Gerhard 1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 Pearl
White
------------------------------
Dave,
I have found resurfacing the rotors to be useful, but you have to be very
careful that the machine shop does a light cut and not a huge cut,
otherwise you lose a lot of life from the rotors. Resurfacing pads
is tough unless you are set up to do it precisely. I can testify that
trying to do it freehand on a grinder doesn't work real well! Cleaning the
pads with brake cleaner and a scotch-brite pad works well too, in case you
have some chunks embedded.
Chuck
After switching to Porterfield R4 compound, the wear on my rotors is
severe. Whereas the R4S would leave the rotors smooth, the R4's groove the
surface severely. Is there any benefit to having the rotors
resurfaced? Is it necessary to resurface the pads at the same time?
Aside from the wear, I've found the R4's to be the best track pads I've
used so far.
------------------------------
Kurt - you are a driver after my own heart!
I am also adamant about straight line braking. Trying to trail brake in a
heavy car can lead to chunking. Brake, then turn. Take what the car will
give you even if it means altering what you 'think' is the perfect line
and style.
------------------------------
Another convert!
Funny thing is that Carbotech is moving their factory, so when I needed
replacement Panther Plus, I couldn't get them. I have a set of Hawk
Blue pads to try out next track event (either weekend post Thanksgiving or
Dec 14-15).
Chuck
BTW, I've switched to Carbotech Panther Plus pads. You can actually use
them on the street. (I don't, because they are too noisy, but you can.)
They last a lot longer than R4 pads -- typically 2+ events (5 track days),
then the remainder goes into the spare pads box. I used to use a set of R4
pads per weekend.
------------------------------
At 09:39 AM 11/15/02 -0600, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
>Another
convert!
>Funny thing is that Carbotech is moving their factory, so when I
needed
>replacement Panther Plus, I couldn't get them. I have a set
of Hawk
>Blue pads to try out next track event (either weekend post
Thanksgiving
>or Dec 14-15).
Chuck:
Have you tried to find Andie Lin (previously our contact at
Carbotech)? He is apparently off on his own making pads.
Cobalt Friction Technologies
1013 N. Federal Highway
Fort Lauderdale,
FL 33304
954.828.1512 Office
954.828.1517 Fax
I haven't heard a peep out of him, nor have I heard any reports about his
pads.
As for the Carbotech pads, I started with the P compound but switched over
to the XP. The P and XP can both be used on the street, but the XP makes
way too much noise and dust for me, so I swap them out after an event.
They last pretty good, but now I don't know if it's the pad or my new
braking technique that makes them last. As you demonstrated, I just stab the
brakes now, turn in early, and carry speed, which makes the little suckers
last forever.
Rich/slow old poop.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:56:39 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Open Track Troubles
NO !!! The problem is that after they are driven on the road they pick up
rocks and other abrasives in the tread and that ruins the cutters on the
equipment that shaves them. Plus it seems that there are few places that
offer that service.
I've got a set of 94 VR-4 rims for sale --- the chrome ranges from good
to fair. They have a set of Goodyear Eagles on them [ 20% left ].
Jim Berry
===============================================
> Can you shave down used tires?
>
> If not, Dave, it
sounds like time for you to get a spare set of wheels
> and mount some
Yoko AO32R's.
------------------------------
No, I haven't heard anything from him either.
I never went to the XP pads, because I was satisfied with the Plus
pads.
Chuck
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:55:22 -0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Open Track Troubles
Well, I have the KDW's, checked Tirerack and 2 other tire dealers to see if
I could get KD vs KDW, they all said not available. That was last
winter so perhaps they just don't make KD in winter, but no one mentioned
that.
Can't say I'm unhappy with KDW, just didn't want KDWS (the all season) in
SoCal. The KDW have big gaping holes between the tread blocks, which just
puts a lot less tread on the ground. Haven't seen KD's up close for
comparison. I'd rather be tasked with the responsibility of saying to
myself 'Hey, its raining stupid, slow down' than having my dry traction reduced.
OH, well, have to wait another year to switch.
Kurt
- -----Original Message-----
From: cody [mailto:overclck@satx.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:37 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Open Track
Troubles
KD's are still available...
Sport Compact Car just had a great comparison between them, the Kumho MX's
and Michelin Pilot Sports... Overall, the KD's took first, Kumho's
second, and Sports were last...
This is in handling conditions and road course conditions...
- -Cody
------------------------------
I contacted him, to resell his stuff.
Imp vendor agnostic..I don't care..I just want to be the brake source for
people to contact.
He'd only let me sell his, if I stopped selling anyone else's.
So..guess what, I'm not selling his pads.
------------------------------
I wonder who would sell anyone's pads under such exclusive
conditions?
Doesn't sound reasonable to me. Maybe he just wants to sell direct to
people.
Chuck
------------------------------
Makes sense as a small company..you keep the margins to yourself to build
cash flow.
But still..I get requests for brands all the time, and I'll do my best to
figure out how to get em.
On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
> I wonder who would sell anyone's pads under such exclusive
conditions?
>
> Doesn't sound reasonable to me. Maybe he just
wants to sell direct to
> people.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:24:54 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Brake Rotor Wear
Andie is still a Team3S member but just busy as hell with his new company
(and racing his NSX). Contact him here (note his new website):
- --Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:29:38 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Anyone here done the Accell coil mod?
Adam Fortier and Allan Bautista have some write-ups and tips on installing
aftermarket coils in our cars.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Keren" <
nouveau3@attbi.com>
Sent: Friday,
November 15, 2002 8:18 AM
Subject: Team3S: Anyone here done the Accell coil
mod?
I've got three Accell Super coils, part # 140017, coming today from Summit
Racing. I'm planning on installing them in my VR4 tomorrow. Has anyone
here done this mod already? Is there anything that I should watch out for
or any warnings that you might have? Maybe some wiring hints or help?
Thanks in advance
Regards,
Shawn Keren
Red '92 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:21:13 -0800
From: "Dean Benz" <
dbenz@vchillclimb.org>
Subject:
Team3S: Trail braking & tire chunking(was: Open Track Troubles)
I agree with "take what the car will give you", but have a slightly
different perspective on trail braking.
IMHO a little bit of trail braking is a good thing, and should not cause
chunking on properly inflated and heated tires. It is not a simple thing
to do well, but well worth practicing and learning.
One of the primary goals of trail braking is to smoothly transition the
suspension from a braking condition to a turning condition and provide
additional traction for turn initiation.
Under trail braking, the front suspension and tires are loaded under
braking and when steering is first applied, the tires have addition
traction due to that loading. If braking force and steering input are
properly balanced (turning increasing as braking decreases) the outside front
corner suspension which is most responsible for turning undergoes a
minimum of disturbance, thus maximizing traction at that corner.
If you brake in a straight line, and then lift off the brakes prior to
turning in, the car's weight transfers from the front suspension/tires
back to a neutral state, and then to the side AFTER you turn in. Since the
tires are less loaded and therefore have less traction at turn in, they
are much more likely to push/scrub/chunk, etc... And once a tire is pushing, it
tends to continue to do so until the driver does something about it.
That said, trail braking is an advanced technique, and can get you in deep
trouble if not done correctly. (I know from first hand experience...) That
is why braking in a straight line is taught to novice drivers.
Back to tires...
In my experience, a loaded tire driven within it's limits is less likely to
chunk/shred/tear than a unloaded tire driven beyond it's limits.
Most of the chunking I have seen is from tires that are over driven while
cold and/or incorrectly inflated.. Performance street tires should be
brought up to temperature and pressure just like race tires, if not more
so because of the more fragile nature of their taller tread blocks.
Depending on the course, this may well be 3-5 or more laps of smooth speed, heat
and pressure build up.
Often novice drivers are told to raise their pressures at track events, but
once they get more comfortable and start adding real speed through the
corners and really heating their tires up, they are seldom told to lower
or monitor their pressures or the need to warm tires. I see more
chalk/shoe polish, and pyrometers at Autocross events than I do at "performance
driving" track events. And that is unfortunate.
Just my $.02..
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:31:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Trail braking & tire chunking(was: Open Track Troubles)
Well, it has everything to do with alignment in the end.
100psi wont keep a tire from chunking if all you are doing is loading up
the edge of the tire because you don't have enough camber.
Trail braking will easily increase front-outside tire load..and further
complicate the problem as well.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:04:34 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
removal of ALL MAS honeycombs WITHOUT causing damage
You do have a point Jon, but it all depends on how you spin it. If you're
going to try tuning with stock injectors, it's easy to go lean. >From
what I know, 3S cars are designed to run slightly rich on mild
acceleration, very rich on hard acceleration, but lean themselves out at cruise.
Your biggest concern in tuning is running lean. That has detonation,
preignition, and ________ [fill in the blank with hazards that may cause a
rebuild] written all over it! If you start with bigger injectors, then
it'll give you an extra cushion to keep you safe IMO. Sure, I'm probably known
on the board to be one of the more paranoid, perfectionist types lately.
But that's because there's other things you can do too. What kind of
budget do you have to work with? There's already setups out there that
completely remove the MAS. The
ARC1+computer package goes for around $1,000
to $1,100 and will be a
ARC1+great,
solid baseline for your future
upgrades.
Regarding two karman sensors, take what Jeff L. says seriously. Have you
seen his site yet? This guy isn't just playing around. I've cut down my
labor time by at least one half thanks to all the useful info on it. I
said it before, and I'll say it again. I sure do like your idea. But if
you're really intent on going the two MAS route, do yourself a favor and get it
flow tested [credit goes to whoever recommended that idea] with and
without honeycombs. Then take off the stock hosing that goes to your
turbos and flow test with two MASes and check your results against the
stock setup.
1) If there's a significant difference and
2) if the added air flow will
actually help engine performance (at some point it just doesn't help
anymore),
then perhaps it'll be worth the money to start messing with your car.
Otherwise, remember. These 3S cars are expensive toys. Anything that you
can do without having the actual car as a whole involved is
preferable.
Riyan
93 rt tt
"David, Jon" wrote:
Also I would like to try running two MSA's while the car is close to stock.
That way, if there's trouble, I know where to look first.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:47:12 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Trail braking & tire chunking(was: Open Track Troubles)
"If you brake in a straight line, and then lift off the brakes prior to
turning in, the car's weight transfers from the front suspension/tires
back to a neutral state, and then to the side AFTER you turn in. Since the
tires are less loaded and therefore have less traction at turn in, they
are much more likely to push/scrub/chunk, etc... And once a tire is pushing, it
tends to continue to do so until the driver does something about
it."
If you trail brake into a turn, you are going to have to come off the
brakes sometime, and when you do, you will transfer weight off the front
wheels. While you may consider that maximum cornering force is
exerted at turn-in, the front wheels are cornering throughout the turn.
When you come off the brakes, the car is going to push in the turn.
If you come off before turn-in, and wait for the suspension to go neutral,
the car is going to understeer some, but not as much as the hysteresis in
the midst of the turn with trail braking. Your tires are sharing cornering
and braking force, so you will have less of each available. You are
absolutely right that it is easy to make a mistake under these conditions,
and a mistake affects both grip and suspension.
"Often novice drivers are told to raise their pressures at track
events, but once they get more comfortable and start adding real speed
through the corners and really heating their tires up, they are seldom
told to lower or monitor their pressures or the need to warm tires. I see
more chalk/shoe polish, and pyrometers at Autocross events than I do at
"performance driving" track events. And that is unfortunate."
I would dearly love to have some objective information about how to modify
warm tire pressures. I don't think there is any reliable way to do
this. I think you have to set the cold pressures and can make only
small changes based on (shoulder) wear during the day.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:45:52 -0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Open Track Troubles
Try Discount Tire dood...
We have them in stock all the time...
- -Cody
- -----Original Message-----
From: Zobel, Kurt
[mailto:Kurt.Zobel@ca.com]
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:55
AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Open Track Troubles
Well, I have the KDW's, checked Tirerack and 2 other tire dealers to see if
I could get KD vs KDW, they all said not available. That was last
winter so perhaps they just don't make KD in winter, but no one mentioned
that.
Can't say I'm unhappy with KDW, just didn't want KDWS (the all season) in
SoCal. The KDW have big gaping holes between the tread blocks, which just
puts a lot less tread on the ground. Haven't seen KD's up close for
comparison. I'd rather be tasked with the responsibility of saying to
myself 'Hey, its raining stupid, slow down' than having my dry traction reduced.
OH, well, have to wait another year to switch.
Kurt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:18:28 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S:
which bearings are accessible when oil pan is dropped?
Satan refused to work on my car. Long story. Message me off board for the
details.
So it looks like I'm gonna have to do this all myself, unless I can find
another satan or independent dealer that'll work with me. If I drop the
oil pan, will I be able to see ALL of the main and rod bearings? Has
anyone out their checked their oil clearances? And what method did you
use? I've heard from quite a few places to "plastigage" it. Can this method be
used without taking the engine out of the car?
Thanks,
Riyan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:59:10 -0800
From: "Dean Benz" <
dbenz@vchillclimb.org>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Trail braking & tire chunking(was: Open Track Troubles)
Car setup involves more than just any one of it's components, springs,
shocks, sway bars, alignment, tire pressure, tire temperature, etc..
Changing any one of them will likely impact how a driver will need to drive
to get the most out of the car. By "most", I do not necessarily mean
speed. Fast for 5 laps does no good in a 20 lap race. Sometimes "most" is
just surviving to make it back to the pits with all the parts still
attached...
Yes, cars with street alignments will tend to eat the shoulders of the
front tires the worst. Heck, most race prepped cars eat the front
shoulders the worst. To what extent entirely depends on the driver and how
he drives, not the weight of the car.
Proper tire pressure and warming them properly is very important no mater
how your car is aligned.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Sent:
Friday, November 15, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Trail braking &
tire chunking(was: Open Track Troubles)
> Well, it has everything to do with alignment in the
end.
>
> 100psi wont keep a tire from chunking if all you are doing
is loading
> up the edge of the tire because you don't have enough
camber.
>
> Trail braking will easily increase front-outside tire
load..and
> further complicate the problem as well.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:18:15 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: which bearings are accessible when oil pan is dropped?
All rod bearings are completely accessible (remove cap, rotate crank to get
other half). You will have to remove the main bearing cap (of course) and
crank to inspect the mains. I am not suggesting that you repair any damage
or
install new bearings from the oil pan side. But you can inspect these
components by removing the oil pan. But before removing any caps, just see
if
you can "rattle" the rods by hand to see which (if any) rod bearings are
bad.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:46:26 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Trail braking & tire chunking(was: Open Track Troubles)
My braking is almost exclusively straight braking. I have Eibach
springs, GC setup, and aftermarket antisway bars front and back. The
current failure mode for my AO32R tires is cording through the central
portion of the tire. Previous wear-out was on the shoulders. I still
get wear on the outside shoulder of the tries and have to remount them
inside out to stretch the wear, but the wear is now essentially even
across the tire - there is just less rubber on the middle. There is
no evidence of overinflation - the wear on the shoulder matches up to the wear
indicator triangle.
My alignment is stock at stock height at the maximum negative camber
allowed in the spec. When I drive at the track, I lower the car
about 1" from stock, which should mean more negative camber. I make
no adjustments of toe-in at the track.
I am using A032R tires, and have seen no chunking in five seasons.
Maybe this is the difference between lightly treaded and heavily treaded
tires. Maybe Rich Merritt could comment on whether he has ever
chunked A032Rs. I recall he had some problems with other tires.
Chuck
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dean Benz
[mailto:dbenz@vchillclimb.org]
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 1:59
PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Trail braking & tire chunking(was: Open
Track
Troubles)
Car setup involves more than just any one of it's components, springs,
shocks, sway bars, alignment, tire pressure, tire temperature, etc..
Changing any one of them will likely impact how a driver will need to drive
to get the most out of the car. By "most", I do not necessarily mean
speed. Fast for 5 laps does no good in a 20 lap race. Sometimes "most" is
just surviving to make it back to the pits with all the parts still
attached...
Yes, cars with street alignments will tend to eat the shoulders of the
front tires the worst. Heck, most race prepped cars eat the front
shoulders the worst. To what extent entirely depends on the driver and how
he drives, not the weight of the car.
Proper tire pressure and warming them properly is very important no mater
how your car is aligned.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:44:46 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
which bearings are accessible when oil pan is dropped?
Plastigage is indeed a method to check clearances --- however --- it is not
the proper method. Replacing bearings with the crank in the car is an
almost guaranteed way of doing another rebuild properly 1000 miles
later.
Too many things to go wrong with the engine in the car and no way to
check the real problem --- the crank. Crank dimensions should be within a
few ten thousandths and cannot be eyeballed.
I've been exchanging a few emails on the subject with Cyrus Nassiri, who,
it seems does rebuilding of high output engines and has passed some of
that information on. I can forward the messages to you if you wish.
If you just want to look, then as mentioned, it's fairly easy.
Jim Berry
==================================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Sent: Friday,
November 15, 2002 11:18 AM
Subject: Team3S: which bearings are accessible
when oil pan is dropped?
> Satan refused to work on my car. Long story. Message me off board for
> the details.
>
> So it looks like I'm gonna have to do
this all myself, unless I can
> find another satan or independent dealer
that'll work with me. If I
> drop the oil pan, will I be able to see ALL
of the main and rod
> bearings? Has anyone out their checked their
oil clearances? And what
> method did you use? I've heard from quite a
few places to "plastigage"
> it. Can this method be used without taking
the engine out of the car?
>
> Thanks,
> Riyan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:05:31 -0800
From: "Dean Benz" <
dbenz@vchillclimb.org>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Trail braking & tire chunking(was: Open Track Troubles)
Moderator, is this appropriate, or should we take this to the racing
forum?
_________________________________________
It's all about being smoooooooooth.... Hands, and feet.
The ultimate in trail braking is to use 100% of the available traction on
the front outside tire. I have never achieved this and often exceeded
it...
:-)
Without getting into slip angles, and all that good stuff, if a driver
comes off the brakes in proper proportion to the increasing amount of
steering input, the effective weight on the outside front tire/suspension
will remain constant or more likely decrease proportionally to speed which
is also being scrubbed during braking/turning.
If done correctly, just as the brake pads pull away from the disc, the
wheel is at the maximum angle for the turn, and 100% of the available
traction is being used to turn the car as it flies past the desired apex.
An instant later, the driver starts unwinding the wheel and applying power
in exact proportion to maximize exit speed and use only 100% of the traction
available at either of the front or rear outside corners. (If only it was
that easy....)
Theoretically, as long as the driver keeps at or below the available
traction, the tire will not slip.
Minimizing upset of the outside front corner is one of the primary goals of
trail braking. Being able to brake later is the other key component.
Again, back to tires...
Tire pressures are an art that has probably only be mastered by a handful
of people. The rest of us can only do our best with pyrometers, chalk/shoe
polish, our ears, and the seats of our pants.
Your right, working with them during the day is often best. If you can
check with a pyrometer in the hot pits right after a couple clean hooked
up laps on already hot tires that will help a lot.
Possibly more important though IMHO for us weekend folks, the trick is to
understand the pressures after they have cooled from a good configuration.
Knowing where they are cold will help you set them correctly for the next
event and get to that good configuration that much faster.
For example. Hot, my setup is well balanced with about 5-6 pounds more in
the front than rear. Cold, this is only about 3-4 because the rears never
heat as much as the fronts. I also find that my "inside" tires will heat
about 1-2 pounds less than my outsides. All this depends on the track, and
your driving, car setup, etc. but knowing how to get your cold pressures close
to start with will make for a much happier day on the track.
The pressure on my tires is always below optimal when I fist leave the pits
for a run group. I take 3-5 laps to warm them and myself up. If I have
guessed right about how much they will heat/raise in pressure, I get the
rest of the run group fairly well hooked up.
- -Dean
------------------------------
>My braking is almost exclusively straight braking.
I never trail
brake, because I turn in way early immediately after straight line braking, and
get the power on where RWD cars are trail braking. Just like Chuck taught
me.
> I have Eibach springs, GC setup, and aftermarket antisway bars front
and back.
Me too. Plus camber plates.
> The current failure mode for my AO32R tires is cording through the
central portion of the tire.
Me too. Actually, I tend to shred the tire at a 45 deg angle across, with
most wear in the center.
>There is no evidence of overinflation - the wear on the shoulder
matches up to the wear indicator triangle.
Me too. In fact, I have lowered my tire pressures to about 36/38 psi cold
in front/rear to match my driving style. Rookies may want to keep the
pressure up.
I toss mine at the sign of a cord, and cords can show up anywhere -- even
on the INSIDE shoulder!
>My alignment is stock at stock height at the maximum negative camber
allowed in the spec. When I drive at the track, I lower the car
about 1" from stock, which should mean more negative camber. I make
no adjustments of toe-in at the track.
I am lowered to the max, with -2 deg camber and positive toe.
>I am using A032R tires, and have seen no chunking in five
seasons. Maybe this is the difference between lightly treaded and
heavily treaded tires. Maybe Rich Merritt could comment on whether
he has ever chunked A032Rs. I recall he had some problems with other
tires.
Nope, never. I chunked a set of Kumhos, because I did not buy them shaved.
The big fat shoulder on a Kumho MUST be shaved, or you can cord or chunk
it in ONE weekend. All that rubber out there warps and twists too much.
I've always wondered: if a Kumho was mounted backward (fat shoulder in), so
it could be worn down instead of being shaved down, would that double its
life? No, it's not a directional tire, in spite of the arrows.
A Kumho is good for at least a second a lap -- maybe more -- over an 032,
but the Yokos wear like IRON. Kumhos wear quickly.
Like Chuck, I prefer tire life to lap times.
Wish there was a tire in between the O32 and the Kumho -- fast laps and
long life.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:14:55 -0800
From: "Dean Benz" <
dbenz@vchillclimb.org>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Trail braking & tire chunking(was: Open Track
Troubles)
> I never trail brake, because I turn in way early immediately
after
straight line braking, and get the power on where RWD cars are
trail
braking. Just like Chuck taught me.
Can you explain this a bit more? Normally turning in early is a
guarantee
that you will not be able to power through the apex to the exit
unless you
over brake.
Trail braking does not negate powering through the apex, it just aids
in
turning in when done correctly. You may actually be trail braking if
by
"immediately" means your foot is still coming up with the pedal as you
turn
in. Only if your foot is entirely off the brake when you turn in are you
not
trail braking at all. For some people light trail braking is so natural,
the
don't know they are doing it. I did it so obviously entering turn 2
at
Thunderhill when starting out my instructor pointed it out to me and
I
didn't even know what he meant. Since I have been instructing, I
have
noticed a number of other drivers do it lightly as well without
realizing
it.
As a test, next time you come into a sweeping 270 or so degree off-ramp
with
nobody near you, come in a little hot and brake instead of coasting in.
Try
and notice where your foot is, without actually thinking about it. You
may
be surprised to find your foot doesn't come ALL the way off the brake
until
you are well into the corner. You just trail braked. The hardest part
of
this exercise is not thinking about it because thinking about it will
mess
up your natural or learned rhythm. Try having someone else watch but
not
tell you when they will be watching.
Now back to our regularly scheduled tire segment...
Charles, have you ever had you toe checked after dropping the car 1? It
is
possible that drop may be messing up your toe and affecting tire wear.
I
don't know enough about our car's geometry yet to be sure how much, but
a
change in ride height almost always affects both camber, and toe
and
depending on geometry, sometimes in an undesirable direction, or to
a
greater degree than one would expect. (Should we start a bump steer
thread?)
Wear in the center of a tire is almost always over inflation. It is
also
very easy to check with a pyrometer. If it is hotter in the center, you
are
over inflated. Tire wear relative to the triangles on the sides of tires
is
not an indication of inflation in either direction. They sort of
indicate
the end of the tread and beginning of the side wall, and if you are
wearing
near or past them you should probably change pressure or your
driving
habits, but which they cannot tell you.
36/38 seams high for cold pressures on our heavy beasts. I would bet
that
hot, they are at or close to 50PSI starting that high. While conditions
make
me mess with them, my typical HOT pressures are 40-44 front, and 35-39
rear.
I'm currently running full tread 275x40x17 Kuhn Ecsta V700s on my TT. When
I
over drive them, yes they eat the shoulders, but I have them flipped and
eat
up the other side, yummy. :-) Full tread on these will actually handle
light
rain as long as there isn't any real standing water. I haven't run a
set of
these to cord yet. the rubber appears to get harder just as you get
them to
slicks. Anybody else notice this? Shaving tires is almost a religious
thing.
Some believe, some don't. I like to use every mm of tread depth I pay
for
even if it means I am slower while I chew on the first few mm. I
keep
threatening to try a set of Hoosiers which start with no perceptible
tread
depth, but I know I will get addicted to them and then be up to a $800
per
set "fix" that lasts only 1/2 as long as my $600 a set Kumhos...
(Your
mileage may vary...)
It is hard to buy other go fast goodies as well as track time when
your
racing budget goes to tires. I could up the racing budget, but that
would
cut into the computer budget... New hard drive, race tire, new video
card,
race tire... decisions, decisions...
- -Dean
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1
#999
***************************************